201 réponses à ce sujet

[Evrathiel]

^ 

[Slash1667]

Yokokorama wrote...

AIR MOORE wrote...

You are foregetting the fact, however, that nothing is stopping these 1/2 organics, 1/2 synthetics from creating more pure synthetics in the future to overcome and wipe them all out... yup.

Thats what I've been saying.  Its hardly even a temporary solution.  Its like they didn't think it through at all.

Sorry, just out of left field here but....

Would the Reapers have the same problem if the Organics had created a race of Clones instead of synthetics? Would they consider it the same situation. You would still have creator and Created.

[Shakaale]

T-Raks wrote...

I really might have missed how the writers wanted that sythethis end to be, but when Shepard says "we'd rather keep our own form", he/she doesn't mean our outside, but our soul, our free will etc., so to decide to "overwrite" the DNA of every organic is absolutely contrary to Shepard's beliefs.

In the end - one way or the other - synthesis is creating a new kind against the will of every free mind. That's to me the reaper solution. Doesn't matter if you get turned into a Husk, Banshee or whatever comes out of the radiation therapy. And I really don't even get how a DNA change makes a living organic part machine?

To be honest, the most important part in their minds ( and in mine! ) is that Shepard ended the problem and not only the solution to this problem ( which would just delay said problem ).

When Shepard speaks of the "form" thing, the stage direction ( is that the word ? ) had me believing 100% he/she was indeed speaking of the appearance. Remember, he/she looks directly at a giant, hovering Reaper, in space, while saying its part, thus, in my opinion, supporting the fact that it was the appearance that was in talk.
Synthesis retains the appearance, retains the memories ( Well can't really know that one, I must say, not until, maybe, the dlc ), it seems to retain everything that make a living being what he/she/it is. Free will is still there, you only forced the ... Structural, should I say, modifications.

And while I can agree this is the reaper solution, it is not entirely :as I stated, the Reapers were turning, stocking, the essence of Organics into themselves, a fat, big, ugly, bloated squid-ish robot.
So the solution, being a "Synthesis", is finding a common ground between the Reapers' ultimate mission and what the present evolved races wanted : everyone will retain what is defining them as individuals - thoughts, personnality, racial features, individuality - but, by merging forever synthetic and organic DNA, they will never ever create something they won't understand and eventually fight.
No more "I don't understand why the Geth wants to be left to their own devices and/or considered as a real, living being". No more "our organic parents are trying to rip us apart... We want to live, we want to know if we have a soul, we don't want to be terminted so we have to fight back".

Best of both worlds, imo !

ps : forgot to speak again of the Battlestar Galactica's advanced Cylons. They are machine, yet they are 100% compatible with humans - they can get impregnated and stuff. In the end, the child of both species will become the new standard, actually.
I think the whole DNA rewriting process leads to something like that, actually.
Or to take another examples, the Replicants in Blade Runner. It's hard to draw the line between what is organic and what is synthetic.

And since everything in the galaxy becomes a mix of both, there won't be "pure" synthetics or "pure" organics ever after. And anyway, they will all understand the Synthetics point of view and never see the point into making them again. 

Modifié par Shakaale, 07 avril 2012 - 04:20 .

[Luiginius]

Shakaale wrote...

T-Raks wrote...

I really might have missed how the writers wanted that sythethis end to be, but when Shepard says "we'd rather keep our own form", he/she doesn't mean our outside, but our soul, our free will etc., so to decide to "overwrite" the DNA of every organic is absolutely contrary to Shepard's beliefs.

In the end - one way or the other - synthesis is creating a new kind against the will of every free mind. That's to me the reaper solution. Doesn't matter if you get turned into a Husk, Banshee or whatever comes out of the radiation therapy. And I really don't even get how a DNA change makes a living organic part machine?

To be honest, the most important part in their minds ( and in mine! ) is that Shepard ended the problem and not only the solution to this problem ( which would just delay said problem ).

When Shepard speaks of the "form" thing, the stage direction ( is that the word ? ) had me believing 100% he/she was indeed speaking of the appearance. Remember, he/she looks directly at a giant, hovering Reaper, in space, while saying its part, thus, in my opinion, supporting the fact that it was the appearance that was in talk.
Synthesis retains the appearance, retains the memories ( Well can't really know that one, I must say, not until, maybe, the dlc ), it seems to retain everything that make a living being what he/she/it is. Free will is still there, you only forced the ... Structural, should I say, modifications.

And while I can agree this is the reaper solution, it is not entirely :as I stated, the Reapers were turning, stocking, the essence of Organics into themselves, a fat, big, ugly, bloated squid-ish robot.
So the solution, being a "Synthesis", is finding a common ground between the Reapers' ultimate mission and what the present evolved races wanted : everyone will retain what is defining them as individuals - thoughts, personnality, racial features, individuality - but, by merging forever synthetic and organic DNA, they will never ever create something they won't understand and eventually fight.
No more "I don't understand why the Geth wants to be left to their own devices and/or considered as a real, living being". No more "our organic parents are trying to rip us apart... We want to live, we want to know if we have a soul, we don't want to be terminted so we have to fight back".

Best of both worlds, imo !

As was asked earlier, what's to stop these new half and halfs from  creating new purely synthetic creatures?

[Shakaale]

Actually, and that may be a little naive, but I think it's simply "understanding". Realization. Mass conciousness. Awareness. You got the word, I'm unsure which one is the most fitting
 
By joining, both lifeforms have brought their own philosophy. Let's say everyone now thinks like both an Organic and a Synthetic.
Before that, you still had Quarians saying that geth were "it" and not "he" or "she".
For some, EDI was a "it", and not a "she".

I believe that, post-green-ending, their is no limit whatsoever between it, he, and she.
There is an undestanding. A realization.

Making a pure Synthetic will probably still be possible, but it will probably like making a baby. If the question "does this unit have a soul?" is asked again, there won't be global panic. They should even be compatible, reproduction wise, with the 50/50.
Granted, human nature ( and probably more, Salarians have very ... special ethics ) will lead to abuse - bad people trying to raise armies of pure Synthetic to do their biding and stuff. But there will be hope for them. And I believe there still is a clear difference between what we could call "VI driven synthetics" and "IA driven synthetics". On a sidenote, those VI driven synthetics have been conveniently removed from ME3... Remember the Cerberus Droids in the 2nd game? :/

So, in a way, it won't go Frankenstein or Skynet. There will probably still be wars, but it will be those kinds of war we have even now on Earth - be it racism, religion, politics, etc... Not on the Quarian/Geth level anymore.

Obviously, this is how I see the Green ending. There are probably plot holes, and yeah, a lot of my feeling is based on ... well, feeling. No real explanations. As we say here : "Shut up it's magic". Like I said : this is something that I can accept because it defies logic. Just like the Cylons or Replicant defy my logic.
Will the DLC adress those questions? I strongly doubt it, sadly.

( and on a sidenote, it's 7am here, and I still haven't slept, so... It's starting to be hard for me to make sense, sadly )

Modifié par Shakaale, 07 avril 2012 - 04:43 .

[PsyrenY]

whitey4444 wrote...

Delta_S wrote...

I didn't know you could walk up to the sides of the platform, so I just went straight ahead.

This. I was waiting for the choice to occur, before I realised I'd actually chosen one.

Derp

[rivqa]

I chose it because I couldn't bear to kill the Geth and EDI, or to do what TIM wanted to do. It didn't click straight away that synthesis was what Saren wanted... still, it felt like the lesser of the three evils.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

For a couple of reasons:

~> I thought it'd be cool if we could all have abilities like the geth, but still maintain our personalities and emotions. And that's what the synthesis path seemed to point to.
~> The ME universe reviews favorably of synthesis in general (cybernetic upgrades in Shepard/Kai Leng, Geth/Quarian synthesis during peace).
~> I wanted to sacrifice my Shepard heroically.
~> Anderson was the avatar for Destroy, TIM was the avatar for Control. I wanted to do my own thing.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 avril 2012 - 05:10 .

[OhoniX]

I chose it because it was the best ending. I mean, let's look at the alternatives:

Do nothing: You die, the Reapers win, humanity is wiped out.

Destroy: You die, the Geth die, supposedly EDI dies (but apparently not?), you win, but at the cost of an entire civilization.

Control: You die, nobody else dies, but your control over the Reapers is not going to last, meaning they'll be back in force eventually.

Synthesis: You die, the Reapers leave, mission obsolete, and organics are no longer doomed to obsolecence at the hands of their robotic overlords.

None of them are perfect, but Synthesis is the best of all of them.

Now sure, it requires that you trust the Catalyst that the beam does what he says it does, but then to a point that's true no matter what choices you take, for all you know, destroying the mechanisms in the Destroy ending could just unshackle some doomsday weapon that the Reapers use to wipe out the Sword fleet, or activating the Control mechanism could do the same, if the Catalyst chooses to ie, there's not really much yuo can do about that, and honestly, if he wanted to lie, he could probably present the "Reapers get turned into ice cream" option so that people would choose it.

I mean, all thre options have serious costs to them, so likely either all three options would be traps, in whcih case there's no way Shepard could win anyways, or all three of them work as described, because if he wanted to trick you into doing his bidding, he'd favor the option he wanted to trick you into. Makes sense, right?

And besides, Paragon Shep (the one most likely to favor Synthesis) is all about leaping headlong into danger with faith that it's for the best, it's all she does.

[ardensia]

 A lot of people have already hit on the reasons I chose synthesis. My thought process lined up pretty closely with those of DESTRAUDO and SpiffsGhost. If you want an in-depth version of my rationale, you can find it here.

Honest truth? None of the choices presented to Shepherd at the end are fair choices. If you accept synthetic life as a legitimate form of life, than no one has the right to make any of them. But all the same, that's where Shepherd ends up, and not for the first time.

What right does Shepherd have to cure or maintain the genophage? The genophage was put in place for a reason, and Wrex can't live forever. In the end, the decision as to whether or not the genophage is cured lies in Shepherd's hands. Either you trust the Krogan to rise above themselves and check their population in a sudden time of bounty, or you shoot Mordin in the back to save all species for the inevitable resurgence of the Krogan. Is it fair to have so much weight on one person? Is it fair to ask Shepherd to either turn on her trusted friends or to doom future generations to the likelihood of another Krogan rebellion?

For the record, I didn't shoot Mordin... but I agonized over this decision like no other one in the game. I really wanted Shep to have some private down-time to discuss the matter with Mordin, since I figured he'd have invaluable insight on both the biological consequences and some degree of Salarian politics. But I wasn't given that chance. I had to make the call based purely on my own limited wisdom.

You can even go back to Noverria, if you want to. What right does Shepherd have to decide to destroy the Rachni queen? What right does Shepherd have to release such a great threat on the rest of the galaxy? But all the same, the choice has been handed to Shepherd, and it must be made. You aren't given an option to just leave the queen in her tank and let the next guy who comes along decide what to do with her.

Regarding the "genetic purifying" issue that has been brought up... it's a legitimate concern. I don't think any of the endings were supposed to sit perfectly well with you. It's war, and it's Shepherd's life, and there are always unknowns where you can't have a right answer. There's so little you can see of the long-term consequences. If the devs really were going for an ending that was meant to open ground for speculation, they do that really well with the last decision you're asked to make, even if their presentation of that decision leaves something to be desired.

The decision you make at the end rides on a lot of things that tie to our individual experiences... not just in the game, but what we brought to the game before we ever chose our Shepherds' first names. What quantifies life? Can a creation ever gain the same rights as a creator? If you have to choose between the lives of a dozen people that you love and an entire culture that hates your guts, which do you choose? Is it better to sacrifice some of our individuality for the good of the whole, or to go down fighting for our uniqueness? Is a life worth living if it is unwillingly shackled by the will of another? Does this unit really, truly have a soul? What is a soul?

Whether or not we ever thought about these questions before, during, or after playing the game, our individual experiences and approaches to the world have already provided us with the basis of our answers. Not that these answers can't change.

For me, with the way I was playing the game and approaching the world and the character of Shepherd, the synthesis ending was kind of a no-brainer. She was standing at the edge of a race war that had escalated to a point that the only possible endings were complete genocide of one group or the other... and she was given a third option. Yes, it sacrificed a fraction of our uniqueness, but it kept both sides alive. It doesn't take away all the reasons to fight. It just... as others have said... eliminates the gap between creator and creation. It takes away that power struggle and gives both the right to exist as equals. Not that everyone will see it as such. There's bound to be some bad blood between the Reapers and... well, everyone else everywhere. But they still have that right.

At some point in time I want to play through the game and take a more renegade path. I want to play a character who is less concerned with uniting the galaxy than he is with being his awesome self. I'm curious to see if 1) he'll choose destruction at the end, or maybe even contron, and 2) I'll be able to follow through with it when the hardest decisions rear their heads again.

[DeepSchist]

Synthesis is the most evil option of the three. While all three choices are ones that Shepard should have flat out refused, synthesis is a forced change upon everyone in the galaxy - and without their input or consent. Control and destruction are both awful choices in their own way of course, but they don't quite approach the same level of evil as synthesis.

[OhoniX]

Synthesis is the most evil option of the three. While all three choices are ones that Shepard should have flat out refused,

Shepard is welcome to refuse all three. You just don't pick one. After a few minutes, the Reapers kill you and win. But that's your choice.

[Belisarius09]

Reapers would come around and take the best races, and merge them into reaper form, part synthetic, part organic. Synthesize merges organics with synthetics. so by choosing synthesize we turn everyone into husks and do the reapers job for them?

Also, I believe in free will, and refuse to play god by deciding everyone must evolve and how and when. Synthesize is the WORST possible ending. from my point of view. even control isn't as bad.

[Dresden867]

Well, short answers:

I did not like the Destroy option, because offing the Geth and Edi seemed wrong to me, and I wasn't sure "kill all synthetics!" really answered the problem in a long-term way.

I did not like the Control option, because doing it TIM's way also seemed wrong to me, given givens, and really, I think it's too much potential for a "power corrupts" ending where the ShepReapers are the big bad for the cycle a couple down the line.

So that only left the one option, and it seemed to 1) satisfy the problem as outlined (synthetics and organics can't coexist) by forcing them to not just coexist, but cohabit, and 2) pull the Reapers in not just as bystanders, but participants in the new situation.

That tied it up nicely, from my perspective.

[earlmobile]

In short: It might allow for the relays to be rebuilt, maybe a citadel above every planet, might allow humans and other races to upload their consciousness into a server like geth (might even be immortality like the geth, part of you being stored when you die), it might allow people to run programs in the body to improve themselves (quarian immune-system, maybe allow quarians/turians to eat different food), it might allow for interspecies babies (joker and EDI, maybe even Tali and Garrus, or Geth and Quarian), might even allow to rebuild all those races that were turned into reapers (i mean, if they were "stored", storing implies you can take it out again), technological breakthroughs on every front, might even allow shepard to be rebuilt as a reaper (because they need someone to get things done, shepard wouldnt like it, but he/she didnt like cerberus either...). Lots of reasons, lots of speculation.

Some of those things might be possible through control, but not all. Problem is, as of now they only "might" be possible. If Bioware follows up what they've said and clarify things like that, i'll love it. As of now, there's still a possibility that the mass relays actually explode and wipe out most races. I prefer it to control because control seems like making the same mistake the reapers did. Destroy seems the most evil to me but of course the logical ending for a shepard that already wiped out the geth.

And: its space magic. Like biotics, like the force, like all mankind getting turned into orange juice and condensed in one big white figure (End of Evangelion). I love all those things. They're ... magical.

Modifié par earlmobile, 07 avril 2012 - 08:52 .

[the slynx]

OP:

I needed to choose something if I wanted the achievement, and the synthesis ending looked like the shortest path.

That hurts to type as much as it hurt to realise while I sat staring blankly at my monitor, wondering what was happening, and why.

[Senario]

Kinda walked forward not knowing when it would choose that ending for me...Plus it made sense at the time "Oh well he suggests this I guess it should be ok..maybe there will be explanations".. Then relays+Joker+death+how did this work again? kicked in.

[soske aizen]

after talking to the kid i was out of it so i did what all hafe minded ppl do i went for the shiny light

[Talogrungi]

MattFini wrote...

Synthesis is the most pretentious, ridiculous option.

Oh, we'll all be infused with synthetic matter (and vice versa) and therefore everyone will always get along!

Cool. Let me know how that works out for you.

Yup, anti-racism space magic.

Also, still confused about the synthetics .. do they grow spleens? .. Does EDI 2.0 have realistic lactating nipples?

[Yalision]

Zoedoll wrote...

Because I was so confused and disorientated by the sudden appearance of a deus ex machina that I stumbled forwards into the light and didn't realise I had to go in a different direction to actually destroy the Reapers

I was actually very confused as well. I didn't realize I could go up the different paths and figured I was forced to go toward the center so I did. I was utterly and totally lost and sick at this feeling that I had been herded down a path with no choice. I figured the red and blue things on the sides were props.

This plot device came out of nowhere and I suppose it  says a lot about how poorly conceived it was that this happened to me. Sigh. I refuse to touch the game again until this is all fixed.

[SillyNydia]

I thought heavily on the choices presented, taking the ending at face value at the time. I ultimately chose destroy however. My initial thoughts on Synthesis and why I leaned that way came down to it was the only option that saved everyone. My strongest feelings brought me to EDI, she reminds me of Data I suppose, striving to be more than she is, she is loyal to you and the crew and I think she deserves a chance to live. In my play through however I wiped out the geth so EDI was really the only bearing for synthesis.

As stated above I did choose destroy however. While wanting to save EDI, I think she would understand the decision. You wipe out the reapers yes, but taking the ending at face value the reapers do not have free will, they are merely tools of destruction. Shepard is constantly faced with hard choices that can lead to the death of friends, so in my case, one life to save billions.

[RockSW]

honestly, i just picked it b/c **** it, i had no idea what was going on. after reading about them afterward i wish i had picked destroy.

IF the extended cut provides satisfactory info (not counting on it) ill go back to my pre-final mission save and change it, synthesis is just so offensive and wrong

Modifié par RockSW, 07 avril 2012 - 09:26 .

[Nightdragon8]

Slash1667 wrote...

Yokokorama wrote...

AIR MOORE wrote...

You are foregetting the fact, however, that nothing is stopping these 1/2 organics, 1/2 synthetics from creating more pure synthetics in the future to overcome and wipe them all out... yup.

Thats what I've been saying.  Its hardly even a temporary solution.  Its like they didn't think it through at all.

Sorry, just out of left field here but....

Would the Reapers have the same problem if the Organics had created a race of Clones instead of synthetics? Would they consider it the same situation. You would still have creator and Created.

Dont remember Virmir? Cloning factory of Krogan?

So cloning is A.O.K. but snythtics = bad.

[Gumba]

I chose it because my brain was still trying to process what exactly was going on and was promised peace and the least amount of death. On my next playthrough I plan on destroying the reapers. Because after that ending everything deserves to die.

[Bruddajakka]

I always knew Space Hey-Zeus was going to die in the end so why not have it be by taking a header into a laser beam.