185 réponses à ce sujet

[1490]

I don't know about in the UK, but in the U.S. to sue someone, there needs to be some sort of "damages" done, and the damage needs to be quantifiable. Because you can't prove that Mass Effect hurt you (unless you could convince a psychiatrist to vouch that Mass Effect was the direct cause of your depression - not going to happen), you'd have to claim the dubious "unspecified damages" category, which any jury would be very, very unlikely to agree with you on. The "financial damage" is too low to sue on: it would have to go to small claims court, where all you could really do is ask for a refund.

[Kilshrek]

Hundreds of hours I spent on ME 1 & 2 and finally 3 cannot be refunded.

The money, well, that's not the biggest concern to me, I'm keeping the games because I actually liked 1 & 2 quite a bit, and I have very mixed feelings about 3. Take 3 out of the equation and ME was the greatest series to be left unfinished. Put 3 in and it's the biggest waste of my time over a 5 year period.

Only, I don't see any legal action having an actual leg to stand on, Bioware have played this extremely cleverly, unlike their ham fisted PR handling of the situation. I don't believe there is much of a case, legally, and even if there were, I probably wouldn't pursue it.

Bioware screwed me over, sure, but I'll screw them back by not buying their games, and ensuring everyone I know, knows about their recently discovered penchant for fluffing their lines at the end of a game, and how poorly they handled a difficult situation where there was legitimate critcism leveled against them. Those people can then make their own decisions on whether or not to spend their money on a potentially unsatisfying game.

Simple as that, and if they ****** off enough customers then maybe they'll finally discover the humble pie the leadership always seems to talk about, but is never seen eating.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 06 avril 2012 - 02:00 .

[dmonorato]

Illegal, probably but have fun filing a lawsuit against the corporate lawyers that EA will pit against you. You know EA the evil empire of the gaming world, with more money then all of us combined will ever have.

[Zhuinden]

Azjurai wrote...

Mutineer81 wrote...

It would be interesting to see a lawyer or a judge - someone with legal know-how and a huge Mass Effect fan - evaluate this whole situation.

I've had a lawyer look over it already here in NZ. Found enough issues to start dispute paperwork due to the problems. Won't hear anything back until after the long weekend but w/e. Stuff being done, good enough for now.

If it helps, my signature links to 4 different threads discussing how the end material is off from the advertisments and interviews. Maybe you can find something there.

By the way, I support the movement - if they are not willing to provide what they advertise ("A game where your decisions determine the outcome", as it is on the front page), then if you can, then do.

[VolusvsReaper]

L00p wrote...

SeefPanda wrote...

this is getting ridiculous.

really now guys, a class action lawsuit because you didnt like the ending. just trade the damn thing in for another game that youll be equally dissatisfied with.

for the love of god, if this is what we've come to i wish there was a choice to allow earth to be harvested.

If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. There is nothing wrong with having ethical standards, there is nothing wrong with calling out bad business practices and saving the world, by doing other things, at the same time.

Quoting Sucker Punch doesn't make you cool.

[Sipau Fade]

 Assuming you're correct, would this be something they could be prosecuted for in Canada where they live? It seems a bit extrem

[Alerithon]

billy the squid wrote...

Paulus magintie wrote...

By falsely advertising the game to have and do certain things and then failed to follow up with their statements. That is illegal in the UK and quite frankly I don't think Bioware actually understands what they have actually done.

We see them here telling us "Its the ending we wanted and intended" even though we where told there would be 16 endings (Im sure that was BS anyway) but we where told no A,B,C choices and we got that.

Anyone in the UK could actually file a lawsuit against Bioware for this. So why on earth is Bioware sticking with their guns claim they are listening to the fanbase only to ignore them anyway?

They are in deep water already and some guy in the USA filed a complaint about bioware about their false advertising. Why is it only the fan base that can see this?

No. I'll go through it briefly.

Because those with a legal background realise that to claim false advertising is daft in this situation. And in this case difficult to prove, as what is determined to be a marketing puff, rather than a possible contractual stipulation is nebulous at best. In addition Misrepresentation doesn't appear to part of the issue. There is no Trademark infringement and several criteria are unfulfilled or so minor that they would be ignored in any action.

1) False statement has been made about the goods and or services?

So, does the game function, yes by and large. Do you have an ending, yes. Is it ME, yes. Does it continue the IP to its conclusion? yes. That's it unless it's patently clear that the developer lied about any of the above, the ending issue is irrelevant in any determination.

2+3) The statement is a misrepresentation, ie: it decieved or induced the person to purchase the product or service in question? Or it had the potential to decieve  the purchaser?

Did that single statement induce you to buy the game? Or were there other matters involved? If so you weren't induced to purchase based upon that statement which may or may not be false.

4) Did you suffer an injury or loss?

Well you might get a refund, if somehow one is able to convince the court of this. Although It would never get to court over such a paltry sum. Your costs wouldn't be covered. And punitive damages? pffft. never going to happen. It implied negligence and deliberate fraud. Which you have to prove as the claimant. And you would have to quantify the damage unless you want to go for unquantified damages claim, which you won't win.

False statements made:

Single Player only can access all ending game content: So far, Bioware's only official statement on the matter is that SP can get you the "best" ending.  There's unsubstantiated player statements and hearsay Bioware statements contesting this, but the more direct and clear statement Bioware could make would be to identify the total war assets available in game, the total possible to acquire in game, and declare whether Galactic Readiness can be increased or not using on Single Player.  Until they do that, there'e a mountain of evidence that supports the idea that SP only cannot exceed 4,000 EMS, and you need 4,000 and 5,000 EMS to access certain ending options.

The ending would not be a LOST ending, would not be an A, B, C, ending, and would not leave major  questions and plots unresolved:  This one is less clear, but certainly something that's strong enough to support a claim.  Yes, the endings were not A, B, or C...they were Red, Blue, or Green, and even people that liked the endings admit that mostly they do so because they either don't care about the plot holes and unanswered questions, or they filled in the answers on their own.  EIther way, the game fails to deliver as promised...by the product director only a month away from release.

Potential to deceive the customer?

I'll personally vouch that if Bioware had been truthful about how dependent the endings available were on play outside of SP, I would not have pre-ordered, and would likely have waited until the price dropped to $30 or $20.  I'm sure many others are in the same category as I am.  Likewise, if Hudson had said "we have 3 major choices at the end of the game, with your decisions throughout affecting little details about what you see within those three choices.  But at the end of ME3, everyone's pretty much in the same state," I'm sure many would have held off pre-ordering the game and waiting to see if they felt it was worth the effort.  

Instead, Bioware made statements that were deceptive regarding those two issues.  Again, specifically in my case, I would have held off buying the game when I did, and potentially never bought the game.

Loss or injury?

That depends.  In my case, I stopped playing after 50 hours, notified Amazon that I felt the game was sold using false advertising statements, and have already received my full refund.  However, I've also spent 50+ hours playing a game seeking to get what Bioware promised.  After every mission, I expected to see my GR ratings change.  I kept expecting to see a cut-scene update of the Reaper's invasion.  I kept expecting to see new missions pop up that, if I didn't do them, would lower my GR.  See, I avoided as much pre-game spoilers as I could.  Because I trusted that the project director was right...as a single player only customer, I didn't need to be worried about how my non-multiplayer status was impacting my game.  As I got closer and closer to the final mission, and as I couldn't but help reading about the growing complaints, I started to worry.  And I started to do more research.  And when I found out that despite all my single player efforts, my GR was never going to move, I felt betrayed.  I felt lied to.  Because that's exactly what happened. 

And Amazon agreed with me, as they have with, by all accounts, many others.

Would I seek the time value of the hours I spent playing the game?  Probably not, because I got my purchase price back, and to be honest, up until the point where I realized there was no point in my continuing I had enjoyed, for the most part, playing.  Would I be shocked if people sought to get the time value of their time spent playing, replaying, and re-replaying the game in an effort to prove Bioware's statements true?  Not at all.  And with 50,000+ people on Facebook alone banding together seeking not just a better product, but the product Bioware told us we'd have, I don't think it would take much to form a serious class action group.  Getting event 10% participation from that group would be 5,000 customers.  If each seeks only the value of 50 hours of play, let's say at $20 an hour, that's a total group award of $5 million.  Before considering any kind of punitive award for the intentional nature of Bioware's actions.

Do I think a suit like that would prevail at trial?  I think it has a good enough chance that it won't be hard to find a lawyer willing to take it.  And more importantly, I think the potential for that to occur, simply facing that kind of a suit at all, has Bioware very concerned right now. 

[sorentoft]

Illegal in Denmark too. And no editing something slightly does not make a new ending. There is only one ending to ME3 and you all know it.

[Wise Men]

Paulus magintie wrote...

By falsely advertising the game to have and do certain things and then failed to follow up with their statements. That is illegal in the UK and quite frankly I don't think Bioware actually understands what they have actually done.

We see them here telling us "Its the ending we wanted and intended" even though we where told there would be 16 endings (Im sure that was BS anyway) but we where told no A,B,C choices and we got that.

Anyone in the UK could actually file a lawsuit against Bioware for this. So why on earth is Bioware sticking with their guns claim they are listening to the fanbase only to ignore them anyway?

They are in deep water already and some guy in the USA filed a complaint about bioware about their false advertising. Why is it only the fan base that can see this?

You should file a suite against them!

[BlacJAC74]

Out of interest, if it's illegal, like many of you have stated - why the hell are you sitting on the interwebs spouting nonsense about something you have little or no clue about rather than going out doing something about it?

If i had £1 for every time a dev has renegaded on a pre release promise, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this, i'd be sailing my yacht around the world.

Most of these promises are laid on the foundation that things are subject to change.

Lets say there is an issue here, that does indeed have some basis to it, then your statuary rights (mis sold, not as described etc) are with the retailer, not the manufacturer.

I love how people can suddenly become legal experts within minutes when it takes others years of studying etc.

I mean has anyone considered;

burden of proof (who knows what & when); in order to identify who has the liability and how much

The defendant was negligent in making the statement because he should have known the representation was false

The defendant intended to induce the plaintiff to rely on the misrepresentation.

And a 1001 other things.

Legal debates should be left to those that have an iota of experience when it comes to dealing with these things. Otherwise people look like idiots.

Modifié par BlacJAC74, 06 avril 2012 - 02:56 .

[loungeshep]

By that logic, we can sue McDonalds for their advertisements where the burgers are bigger and thicker than they actually are.

[Keltikone]

Evil Arts have been sued, a lot. Next time you get the end credits of one of thier games, look at how many people the "legal team" has in it.

Legal power like that costs big cash, you wan't to hurt them ? Stop buying thier stuff.

[ognick23]

if you think its illegal then put your money where your mouth is, have some balls and sue them and let us know how far you get... oh thats right you would only end up going broke yourself tryna pay for your lawyers to sue them over something thats not false advertisement because wether u like them or not there are 17 different endings even if they are minor

Modifié par ognick23, 06 avril 2012 - 03:01 .

[RebelTitan428]

what about "take earth back"
when did that happen? we took rannoch back, we took tuchanka back, but no earth...

the game should have been advertised "eventually see earth"

[BlacJAC74]

RebelTitan428 wrote...

what about "take earth back"
when did that happen? we took rannoch back, we took tuchanka back, but no earth...

the game should have been advertised "eventually see earth"

You could argue we did take earth back.  After all, the two endings i have witnessed have the Reapers either being destroyed or leaving.  i dunno about the other ending as i haven't seen it.

Now, had it said "take earth back and survive along with your LI", then you'd have a point.

Modifié par BlacJAC74, 06 avril 2012 - 03:08 .

[Alerithon]

BlacJAC74 wrote...

Out of interest, if it's illegal, like many of you have stated - why the hell are you sitting on the interwebs spouting nonsense about something you have little or no clue about rather than going out doing something about it?

If i had £1 for every time a dev has renegaded on a pre release promise, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this, i'd be sailing my yacht around the world.

Most of these promises are laid on the foundation that things are subject to change.

Lets say there is an issue here, that does indeed have some basis to it, then your statuary rights (mis sold, not as described etc) are with the retailer, not the manufacturer.

I love how people can suddenly become legal experts within minutes when it takes others years of studying etc.

I mean has anyone considered;

burden of proof (who knows what & when); in order to identify who has the liability and how much

The defendant was negligent in making the statement because he should have known the representation was false

The defendant intended to induce the plaintiff to rely on the misrepresentation.

And a 1001 other things.

Legal debates should be left to those that have an iota of experience when it comes to dealing with these things. Otherwise people look like idiots.

Yes, actually, I have.  I also (to the extent such can be relied upon on-line) have spent years as a lawyer.  And I've spent the past 5 years as a huge Mass Effect fan.  

For instance, I found it highly suspect that Bioware issued what amounts to a "wait and see" statement in mid-March, when all the claims of false advertising and lies arose.  They said "wait until April.  And then, on April 5, exactly 30 days after release, they announce a response...which will come during the summer.

Coincidentally, most retailers have a more generous return policy within the first 30 days after purchase.  For everyone that pre-ordered Mass Effect 3, April 5 would be the last day that they could seek full returns, or any return at all.  Illegal?  Not in the least.  But it certainly suggests that Bioware is more aware of things beyond the most glaring customer issues in relation to this release.  

Additionally, there's the near silence that has pervaded around the game since the uproar began.  Bioware knows that this is not just a case of fans expressing their dislike for a product.  This is a case where the pre-release...in most cases, many of the Bioware statements were made in February 2012, less than a month before release....statements made created a definite impression as to what the game would contain.  At that time, the game should be final, and on its way to packaging.

The evidence is all over the internet, with date stamps.  There's no need to search for a smoking gun, because Bioware practically acted in the full view of everyone. 

[Alerithon]

ognick23 wrote...

if you think its illegal then put your money where your mouth is, have some balls and sue them and let us know how far you get... oh thats right you would only end up going broke yourself tryna pay for your lawyers to sue them over something thats not false advertisement because wether u like them or not there are 17 different endings even if they are minor

I don't need to sue them.  I got my refund from Amazon, and I actually don't feel that the 50+ ours I spent playing were wasted.

But other don't feel that way, and I think the courts are a fine way for them to seek their solution.

[maxtofunator]

Just so everyone know, Bioware never FALSELY advertised this game, at all. If you want to go into the 16 different endings, there are technically 16 different endings that can happen, however slightly different they are. IGN's wiki has them all, and they have slight differences, which truthfully is a different ending. Arguing they are the same ending is like saying that having Ron kill Voldemort's snake or having Nevelle kill it are the same ending, which they aren't. There are 3 MAJOR choices, that are real A,B, or C based choices, and the rest depends on sidequests and the galaxy at war map. Thus, they never falsely advertised the game once. The lawsuit really would get you nowhere except for a waste of money because everyone is mad that the ending wasn't what THEY personally wanted

[BlacJAC74]

Alerithon wrote...

BlacJAC74 wrote...

Out of interest, if it's illegal, like many of you have stated - why the hell are you sitting on the interwebs spouting nonsense about something you have little or no clue about rather than going out doing something about it?

If i had £1 for every time a dev has renegaded on a pre release promise, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this, i'd be sailing my yacht around the world.

Most of these promises are laid on the foundation that things are subject to change.

Lets say there is an issue here, that does indeed have some basis to it, then your statuary rights (mis sold, not as described etc) are with the retailer, not the manufacturer.

I love how people can suddenly become legal experts within minutes when it takes others years of studying etc.

I mean has anyone considered;

burden of proof (who knows what & when); in order to identify who has the liability and how much

The defendant was negligent in making the statement because he should have known the representation was false

The defendant intended to induce the plaintiff to rely on the misrepresentation.

And a 1001 other things.

Legal debates should be left to those that have an iota of experience when it comes to dealing with these things. Otherwise people look like idiots.

Yes, actually, I have.  I also (to the extent such can be relied upon on-line) have spent years as a lawyer.  And I've spent the past 5 years as a huge Mass Effect fan.  

For instance, I found it highly suspect that Bioware issued what amounts to a "wait and see" statement in mid-March, when all the claims of false advertising and lies arose.  They said "wait until April.  And then, on April 5, exactly 30 days after release, they announce a response...which will come during the summer.

Coincidentally, most retailers have a more generous return policy within the first 30 days after purchase.  For everyone that pre-ordered Mass Effect 3, April 5 would be the last day that they could seek full returns, or any return at all.  Illegal?  Not in the least.  But it certainly suggests that Bioware is more aware of things beyond the most glaring customer issues in relation to this release.  

Additionally, there's the near silence that has pervaded around the game since the uproar began.  Bioware knows that this is not just a case of fans expressing their dislike for a product.  This is a case where the pre-release...in most cases, many of the Bioware statements were made in February 2012, less than a month before release....statements made created a definite impression as to what the game would contain.  At that time, the game should be final, and on its way to packaging.

The evidence is all over the internet, with date stamps.  There's no need to search for a smoking gun, because Bioware practically acted in the full view of everyone. 

What type of solicitor/lawyer are you?

[Rickin10]

Bioware are technically covered due the 'Space magic' clause and under sub-clause 37.b. 'Artistic Integrity'

[PiEman]

SeefPanda wrote...

this is getting ridiculous.

really now guys, a class action lawsuit because you didnt like the ending. just trade the damn thing in for another game that youll be equally dissatisfied with.

for the love of god, if this is what we've come to i wish there was a choice to allow earth to be harvested.

Would you people stop throwing red herrings out there?
This is the Mass Effect 3 section of the Bioware forum. We are talking about Mass Effect 3. We are dissatisfied with the endings, and even more dissatisfied with being lied to about them for five years.

Go talk about other games, and your cynical attitude towards us, on another forum.

[ognick23]

Alerithon wrote...

ognick23 wrote...

if you think its illegal then put your money where your mouth is, have some balls and sue them and let us know how far you get... oh thats right you would only end up going broke yourself tryna pay for your lawyers to sue them over something thats not false advertisement because wether u like them or not there are 17 different endings even if they are minor

I don't need to sue them.  I got my refund from Amazon, and I actually don't feel that the 50+ ours I spent playing were wasted.

But other don't feel that way, and I think the courts are a fine way for them to seek their solution.

at least u didnt make a thread about it lol

Modifié par ognick23, 06 avril 2012 - 03:19 .

[Cadence of the Planes]

Paulus magintie wrote...

By falsely advertising the game to have and do certain things and then failed to follow up with their statements. That is illegal in the UK and quite frankly I don't think Bioware actually understands what they have actually done.

We see them here telling us "Its the ending we wanted and intended" even though we where told there would be 16 endings (Im sure that was BS anyway) but we where told no A,B,C choices and we got that.

Anyone in the UK could actually file a lawsuit against Bioware for this. So why on earth is Bioware sticking with their guns claim they are listening to the fanbase only to ignore them anyway?

They are in deep water already and some guy in the USA filed a complaint about bioware about their false advertising. Why is it only the fan base that can see this?

Which law did they break? I thought they were true to their statements. You're expressing an O-P-I-N-I-O-N not a FACT when you say they "failed to follow up." 

I got enough closure from the endings as they are. Deal with it.