322 réponses à ce sujet

[Suko Reia]

Come one people!! This is a trap!
They want to changed the point of view which was "ME3 ending suck" because today is the PAX and they did this for that reason, due to the overwhelming group of angry fans that will be there making questions about "what the hell were you thinking when you were making the €#%£¥ ending?

[Hyrist]

thedosbox wrote...

Guilty as charged.  I'm not foolish enough to take this debate too seriously.

Or seriously at all, as the case may be.

I think you fail to realize how much this weakens your stance and, for those who generalize, the stance of those who share your signature.

[darkshadow136]

Well the reason many of us are still here speaking our mind is a little thing that in recent years seems to have been forgotten it is called holding people or companies accountable for their actions or non-actions.

As far as Bioware coming out with the next big franchise that either equals or rivals Dragon age or ME1 recent shows that Bioware is not capable of that anymore. There epic games stopped with DAO and ME2. Another reason we stick around is because we would like to see Bioware become again the game developer we all loved before they got in bed with EA.

If I was going to equate EA to something in theology, I would have to compare them to The Great Harlot of Babylon. The last part was a joke, they are not that evil, but close in my opinion anyway.

[Oldbones2]

DevilBeast wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...
Ever wondered if this ending DLC is actually Bioware´s way of saying that they screwed up?? If they really sternly believed that this ending is awesome and is great as it is, then why would they add something extra to it??

What I think Bioware is doing right now is trying to save face; admitting that they made a crap ending might seem like a weakness to them.

It's not an apology so much as a peace offering..

They don't want to admit to wrongdoing or anything along those lines, but they want relations to not be so sour.

Call me an optimist, but a peaceoffering is always better than nothing at all.

An apology is a peace offering.  A compromise is a peace offering.

What Bioware is giving us is neither, and doesn't have the same intent. 

Clarification DLC is being made so that other DLC will still sell.

Actually, i´m looking forward to this DLC despite it only being some extra cutscenes. See, my problem with the ending wasn´t the whole starchild choose three different colors thing. I mean, ME1 and 2´s endings weren´t that varied either. My real problem was that we never really saw the long term consequences and what really happened to your team. Sure, we see the reapers being detroyed, fly away whatever and mass relays destroyed and your crew landing on some jungle planet, but that still wasn´t saying much.
No, what I really missed was a proper epilogue and I´m sure I´m not the only. And now, that Bioware seems to actually be making one I can barely get my arms down.

Now back to your last comment: Do you really think that a free DLC would "lure" people from the Retake movement would fall for that stunt?? The fact that a new movement has sprung up due to this announcement seems to contradict that.

I never said it would work.  Although I have seen some BSN users with Retake in their sigs suddenly talking about how Bioware has restored their faith and/or fixed everything.  So maybe it will accomplish something.

[DevilBeast]

Oldbones2 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

It just seems pointless to go on ruining the forums for the real fans.

No, you are not a real fan and I a fake fan. You are just easier to please. You don't need your entertainment to make sense. You don't need Bioware to honor their promises. 

Actually, what if someone does think the endings make sense. Is your opinon then more superior than theirs??

Most fervant Pro enders I talk to seem to think their opinion/understanding of the ending is more important than mine.

Actually, I guess that argument counts for both sides of the fence

[Wynteryth]

Justin2k wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Because they have hope? Because they want to continue to get that message out to ensure it doesn't happen again, and because they are still dissatisfied customers.

You sure do make a whole lot of threads telling people to "get over it".

Because it is quite clearly over.  Most of your 60k or whatever are satisfied now, Bioware have stated whats going to happen.  There is nothing left to "win". 

It just seems pointless to go on ruining the forums for the real fans.

Because it's not over..  The statement by BioWare is only going to enrage people more when it's a complete failure and does nothing the fans have asked.  

[Justin2k]

Hyrist wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

The DLC isn't a peace offering. It's a way to disperse and seperate the anti-enders. A public relations excercise.

You give them the basic of what they want. This will appease an amount of them. The people who want clarity and closure get it, while they still don't have to rewrite a whole new ending which was the core demand.

You then announce it for free, so it looks charitable, and follow that up the next day with another free DLC for multiplayer which makes them look even more charitable. This makes the retake movement look ungrateful, even though in theory the retakers have not got what it was they really wanted.

Basically with PR and spin, they can get many of the anti-enders to give them another chance, leaving a vocal group shouting they didn't get what they want. Notice there are more and more "Shepard deserves better fans" sigs popping up since yesterday? Notice there are more threads knocking the anti-enders since yesterday?

Even things like removing Casey from PAX to take the sting out of it. This is basic 101 riot control. And i don't think the retake people even realise it. This is a PR attack directly against them and theres little they can really do about it.

And you defend such conduct? Why? Everything you described is basically underhanded business tricks which are virtually the opposite of creating a trusting bond between Developer and Audiance? How can you support a company that uses such pratices? 

The way you describe it, it demeans you more than those who oppose you for backing it.

Well I defend it because I do not agree with the protests in the first place.  Bioware delivered a great game for 40+ hours, with a silly ending that didn't make much sense.  Square have delivered an awful game for 40+ hours with an ending that was absolutely fantastic.  Does this make Square's game better?  Of course not.

Mass Effect 3 was actually a masterpiece, and most of the retake people admit that.  I think the way people have been harrassing their staff, abusing their fans, sending them cakes...  I agree with Chobot, it's an entitled whinefest.

One bad part of a game does not warrant reviewing the game 0/10 as people have been doing.  People have actively been trying to harm Bioware and the sales of Mass Effect 3.  It's only natural that EA would have to do something to put a stop to that as quickly and effectively as they can.  The tactics are severe, but it's basic PR to deal with this kind of situation, and it's a situation that the fans have put them in in the first place.

Lets be honest, a multi-national company cannot come out and say "sorry, our product is bad and we let you all down".  Bioware is not your friend.  It's a business.  A lot of people struggle to understand that.

[thedosbox]

Oldbones2 wrote...

64,000 cared enough to vote.  So those people probably care enough to buy DLC. 

We're both speculating here, but I did not vote and would be interested in DLC.

If even half hate the endings enough to never buy DLC for ME 3 that is a horrifying loss of money for Bioware.
300,000 less than they would have for every single DLC they release.

Again, neither of us have facts to back this up, but I'm not the one making claims of "hundred thousands" supporting me.

It's also worth noting that the 890,000 figure was launch day sales alone.  It's highly likely that number has gone up substantially, making the potential market for DLC still sizable - even if you assume that none of the 64,000 buy DLC.

And given previous experience with boycotts, it's entirely possible many of those 64,000 will still buy whatever EA is willing to sell them: http://www.rockpaper...otts-seriously/

[BeefoTheBold]

Wynteryth wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

Vaktathi wrote...

Because they have hope? Because they want to continue to get that message out to ensure it doesn't happen again, and because they are still dissatisfied customers.

You sure do make a whole lot of threads telling people to "get over it".

Because it is quite clearly over.  Most of your 60k or whatever are satisfied now, Bioware have stated whats going to happen.  There is nothing left to "win". 

It just seems pointless to go on ruining the forums for the real fans.

Because it's not over..  The statement by BioWare is only going to enrage people more when it's a complete failure and does nothing the fans have asked. 

Exactly. Look at the reaction yesterday. Most people in the retake movement had one thing to say:

We don't need the endings clarifified. That's an insulting implication that we are too stupid to understand the endings. We want NEW ENDINGS.

Wanting something to be over and stating it emphatically does not make it so. I was here for hours yesterday and, no, the people who hated the endings were NOT satisfied.

[Foryou]

I don't know why I'm here cause of all the trolls. I'm fine with Bioware with all the free stuff (minus the crap ending).

[thedosbox]

slyguy200 wrote...
So even if you don't
agree that we're a majority in this situation, it is a principled stand.

As the rockpapershotgun link shows, "principled stands" among gamers have a pretty poor history.

[DevilBeast]

BobSmith101 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

So I understand a lot of people are very upset at Bioware right now for the ending of Mass Effect and also for the perception that they have that they haven't been listened to or that they have been spoken down to.  I do get that although I don't agree with it.

And many people are now talking about voting with their wallets and all, which in honesty is in my opinion the only way to actually hold any sort of line and make any difference.

But what if Bioware came out with the next big thing.  Something which is better than Mass Effect 1.  Something better than Dragonage.  What if they came out with the new "skyrim", the game that everyone knows someone who is playing.

Will you really honestly sit it out because of principles?  It doesn't look like it if I'm honest.  You can all tick a poll that you will never buy a Bioware product ever again, but yet you still sit on their forums every day.  And now it's like all people do is complain and you have to consider, why not just go and do something fun for you?  Bioware have said what they intend to do, it isn't going to change, so if you don't like it what on earth is the point?

The only way you are going to hold any line is if you start to do what you threaten and just leave.  If they still get your money it really doesn't matter how many cupcakes you send them.   I think you guys enjoy Bioware games too much to actually go because if I didn't like a company I wouldn't waste months on trolling their forums like you guys are now.

Just get over it please, for the sake of everyone else here.  Shepard deserves better fans.

Me 3's ending made me sad enough not to want any more DLC in the ME universe.

Bioware's handling of its fans made me bitter enough to take action.

I think its going to be pretty easy for me to skip the next Mass Effect title. 

And if DA3 is AMAZING, well I can always buy it secondhand or rent it so Bioware gets NO profit.

Ever heard about something called "forgiveness"??

Forgiveness is something you earn.

And continuing to use a companies products despite stating otherwise is what??

His choice, he's not breaking any laws just exercising his options. Anyone would be wise to approach Bioware with caution in light of DA2 and ME3.

But he did say that if DA3 was awesome. Would it really be okay to punish the writers on one game just because the team of writers on another screwed up. 
 

[AlanC9]

BeefoTheBold wrote...
Exactly. Look at the reaction yesterday. Most people in the retake movement had one thing to say:

We don't need the endings clarifified. That's an insulting implication that we are too stupid to understand the endings. We want NEW ENDINGS.

I never quite understood what, specifically, an acceptable new ending or endings would have been. Did Retake have some sort of positive vision that I just missed? (I get what the "happy ending" crowd wanted, but I thought Retake wasn't supposed to be that.)

[BeefoTheBold]

Justin2k wrote...

Hyrist wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

The DLC isn't a peace offering. It's a way to disperse and seperate the anti-enders. A public relations excercise.

You give them the basic of what they want. This will appease an amount of them. The people who want clarity and closure get it, while they still don't have to rewrite a whole new ending which was the core demand.

You then announce it for free, so it looks charitable, and follow that up the next day with another free DLC for multiplayer which makes them look even more charitable. This makes the retake movement look ungrateful, even though in theory the retakers have not got what it was they really wanted.

Basically with PR and spin, they can get many of the anti-enders to give them another chance, leaving a vocal group shouting they didn't get what they want. Notice there are more and more "Shepard deserves better fans" sigs popping up since yesterday? Notice there are more threads knocking the anti-enders since yesterday?

Even things like removing Casey from PAX to take the sting out of it. This is basic 101 riot control. And i don't think the retake people even realise it. This is a PR attack directly against them and theres little they can really do about it.

And you defend such conduct? Why? Everything you described is basically underhanded business tricks which are virtually the opposite of creating a trusting bond between Developer and Audiance? How can you support a company that uses such pratices? 

The way you describe it, it demeans you more than those who oppose you for backing it.

Well I defend it because I do not agree with the protests in the first place.  Bioware delivered a great game for 40+ hours, with a silly ending that didn't make much sense.  Square have delivered an awful game for 40+ hours with an ending that was absolutely fantastic.  Does this make Square's game better?  Of course not.

Mass Effect 3 was actually a masterpiece, and most of the retake people admit that.  I think the way people have been harrassing their staff, abusing their fans, sending them cakes...  I agree with Chobot, it's an entitled whinefest.

One bad part of a game does not warrant reviewing the game 0/10 as people have been doing.  People have actively been trying to harm Bioware and the sales of Mass Effect 3.  It's only natural that EA would have to do something to put a stop to that as quickly and effectively as they can.  The tactics are severe, but it's basic PR to deal with this kind of situation, and it's a situation that the fans have put them in in the first place.

Lets be honest, a multi-national company cannot come out and say "sorry, our product is bad and we let you all down".  Bioware is not your friend.  It's a business.  A lot of people struggle to understand that.

1. Harrassing staff? Most people have been very civil. They voice their complaints and dissatisfaction with the company, but that does not equate to harrassment.

2. Abusing their fans? That definitely goes both ways and, frankly, I've seen more folks on the pro-ending side abusing than the other way around. For example, in the very same sentence you complain about it you go on to call those on the other side of the issue "entitled whiners".

3. Who gives a **** what Chobot has to say? She hid a blatant conflict of interest for months before finally revealing that she was going to be in the game all the while giving previews glowingly praising it. Why does she have any credibility whatsoever?

4. If you're at war with your fans then you're losing. Period. Regardless of reason. Not just because of the legal or ethical ramifications, but because it is BAD BUSINESS to be at war with your fans.

You are failing to see the long term ramifications. Yes, coming out and admitting a mistake may have short term consequences, but long term it rebuilds trust and loyalty and leads to more sales.

[Farbautisonn]

thedosbox wrote...
You're referring to this one? http://social.biowar...8156/6#11093365
No need when there are no issues with it.  We both know it is meant to be sarcastic.

-You might want to reread what I wrote in my reply.  You support for  Justins fallacious posts just means you cant tell the difference between fact and fallacy. Thats what I wrote.

Guilty as charged.  I'm not foolish enough to take this debate too seriously.

-Oh... Im sorry. So you didnt want to be taken seriously, youre just letting your fingers traverse the keyboard to kill time and employ generalisations extrapolated from thin air. http://social.biowar...8156/7#11094130

[Oldbones2]

DevilBeast wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

It just seems pointless to go on ruining the forums for the real fans.

No, you are not a real fan and I a fake fan. You are just easier to please. You don't need your entertainment to make sense. You don't need Bioware to honor their promises. 

Actually, what if someone does think the endings make sense. Is your opinon then more superior than theirs??

Most fervant Pro enders I talk to seem to think their opinion/understanding of the ending is more important than mine.

Actually, I guess that argument counts for both sides of the fence

Suspect your right.

[Farbautisonn]

Hyrist wrote...

Or seriously at all, as the case may be.

I think you fail to realize how much this weakens your stance and, for those who generalize, the stance of those who share your signature.

-Dont try to use logic with this guy. It wont stick.

[Artemis_Entrari]

I'll re-post this here because it seems to fit any post by Justin2k:

Pro-enders have been complaining non stop that those against the ending are clogging up the forums with their threads, and because of that they can't even discuss the game.

So their solution?

Clog up the forums with threads complaining about those complaining about the ending.

Yeah, no faulty logic there at all.

If you want to discuss the game, why not discuss the game instead of making thread after thread complaining about people complaining?  Does that not seem to make more sense?

I get the feeling you're more interested in simply arguing and picking fights with people who disagree with you than actually having discussions about the game you love so much.

Modifié par Artemis_Entrari, 06 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Vaktathi]

Justin2k wrote...

Lets be honest, a multi-national company cannot come out and say "sorry, our product is bad and we let you all down".  Bioware is not your friend.  It's a business.  A lot of people struggle to understand that.

Other businesses have done so in the past, there are plenty of examples of game companies doing this. EVE online is a great one off the top of my head. And if you're in a position where such an act is under discussion, you're not in a good place to begin with, it's bad business to ****** off customers, and its suicidal business to see them as the enemy.

[Hyrist]

Justin2k wrote...



Well I defend it because I do not agree with the protests in the first place.  Bioware delivered a great game for 40+ hours, with a silly ending that didn't make much sense.  Square have delivered an awful game for 40+ hours with an ending that was absolutely fantastic.  Does this make Square's game better?  Of course not.

Mass Effect 3 was actually a masterpiece, and most of the retake people admit that.  I think the way people have been harrassing their staff, abusing their fans, sending them cakes...  I agree with Chobot, it's an entitled whinefest.

One bad part of a game does not warrant reviewing the game 0/10 as people have been doing.  People have actively been trying to harm Bioware and the sales of Mass Effect 3.  It's only natural that EA would have to do something to put a stop to that as quickly and effectively as they can.  The tactics are severe, but it's basic PR to deal with this kind of situation, and it's a situation that the fans have put them in in the first place.

Lets be honest, a multi-national company cannot come out and say "sorry, our product is bad and we let you all down".  Bioware is not your friend.  It's a business.  A lot of people struggle to understand that.

You forget that chobot apologized for her conduct and actually expressed her feelings on the matter in a larger light, one that actually got her better praise from her peers than her initial inflamatory statments.

Regardless, the argument you provide here is a Red Herring. Whether you agree or do not agree with the protest, you do not disband it with live ammunition, or you cause more damage in the cleanup effort than you do in the initial mistake.

This isn't some magic trick that BioWare can pull over people's eyes. I diddn't join the ReTake efforts because I JUST disliked the endings. The conduct of BioWare is being watched like a hawk, and journalists, reviewers, new sites are all watching, and the prudent one are going to call BS on the segrigation attempts. And I took their side of the debates because of the same coporate shrill that is reflected in every bad political and coroporate mechanation we desprately need to perge from our society.

You cant justify baseline social wrongdoing just because people are being loud and whiney. And it becomes much harder to empathise with your side of the debate when you support the employment of dishonest business pratice to get your way.

Thats like phoning in Anonomyous to DDoS Bioware servers to support the ReTake crowd. (and at least the ReTakers took the high road via donating to charity.)

[j78]

DevilBeast wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

So I understand a lot of people are very upset at Bioware right now for the ending of Mass Effect and also for the perception that they have that they haven't been listened to or that they have been spoken down to.  I do get that although I don't agree with it.

And many people are now talking about voting with their wallets and all, which in honesty is in my opinion the only way to actually hold any sort of line and make any difference.

But what if Bioware came out with the next big thing.  Something which is better than Mass Effect 1.  Something better than Dragonage.  What if they came out with the new "skyrim", the game that everyone knows someone who is playing.

Will you really honestly sit it out because of principles?  It doesn't look like it if I'm honest.  You can all tick a poll that you will never buy a Bioware product ever again, but yet you still sit on their forums every day.  And now it's like all people do is complain and you have to consider, why not just go and do something fun for you?  Bioware have said what they intend to do, it isn't going to change, so if you don't like it what on earth is the point?

The only way you are going to hold any line is if you start to do what you threaten and just leave.  If they still get your money it really doesn't matter how many cupcakes you send them.   I think you guys enjoy Bioware games too much to actually go because if I didn't like a company I wouldn't waste months on trolling their forums like you guys are now.

Just get over it please, for the sake of everyone else here.  Shepard deserves better fans.

Me 3's ending made me sad enough not to want any more DLC in the ME universe.

Bioware's handling of its fans made me bitter enough to take action.

I think its going to be pretty easy for me to skip the next Mass Effect title. 

And if DA3 is AMAZING, well I can always buy it secondhand or rent it so Bioware gets NO profit.

Ever heard about something called "forgiveness"??

Forgiveness is something you earn.

And continuing to use a companies products despite stating otherwise is what??

His choice, he's not breaking any laws just exercising his options. Anyone would be wise to approach Bioware with caution in light of DA2 and ME3.

But he did say that if DA3 was awesome. Would it really be okay to punish the writers on one game just because the team of writers on another screwed up. 
 

It wont be BW /EA is chasing the brass ring. not sticking to what made them great http://kotaku.com/58...iii-inspiration

Modifié par j78, 06 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[DevilBeast]

Oldbones2 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...
Ever wondered if this ending DLC is actually Bioware´s way of saying that they screwed up?? If they really sternly believed that this ending is awesome and is great as it is, then why would they add something extra to it??

What I think Bioware is doing right now is trying to save face; admitting that they made a crap ending might seem like a weakness to them.

It's not an apology so much as a peace offering..

They don't want to admit to wrongdoing or anything along those lines, but they want relations to not be so sour.

Call me an optimist, but a peaceoffering is always better than nothing at all.

An apology is a peace offering.  A compromise is a peace offering.

What Bioware is giving us is neither, and doesn't have the same intent. 

Clarification DLC is being made so that other DLC will still sell.

Actually, i´m looking forward to this DLC despite it only being some extra cutscenes. See, my problem with the ending wasn´t the whole starchild choose three different colors thing. I mean, ME1 and 2´s endings weren´t that varied either. My real problem was that we never really saw the long term consequences and what really happened to your team. Sure, we see the reapers being detroyed, fly away whatever and mass relays destroyed and your crew landing on some jungle planet, but that still wasn´t saying much.
No, what I really missed was a proper epilogue and I´m sure I´m not the only. And now, that Bioware seems to actually be making one I can barely get my arms down.

Now back to your last comment: Do you really think that a free DLC would "lure" people from the Retake movement would fall for that stunt?? The fact that a new movement has sprung up due to this announcement seems to contradict that.

I never said it would work.  Although I have seen some BSN users with Retake in their sigs suddenly talking about how Bioware has restored their faith and/or fixed everything.  So maybe it will accomplish something.

Hmmm... Yes, you do have a point. I wonder though, if those who are now "satisfied" from the Retake movement are in the same boat as me?? That we didn´t demand a complete rewrite only a clarification??

[Hyrist]

Vaktathi wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

Lets be honest, a multi-national company cannot come out and say "sorry, our product is bad and we let you all down".  Bioware is not your friend.  It's a business.  A lot of people struggle to understand that.

 

I'm sorry, you were trying to make a point about multimillion doller companies unable to apologize?

How about Nintendo?

How about Square Enix?


You seem to think that these guy are unmovable mountains, but SE swallowed an entire year's worth of subscriptions while they were also redeveloping FFXIV (a project that continues, with lots of back and forth communication between fans and developers, mind you.) 

Now, if these guys can apologize for gigantic mess ups, you'd think a simple. "Hey, looks like our ending really let down our fans. We're really sorry we let that happen, please bear with us while we try to figure out a way to improve things." really would not be so hard, consitering the prescident is already set.