322 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalas82]

Justin2k wrote...

So I understand a lot of people are very upset at Bioware right now for the ending of Mass Effect and also for the perception that they have that they haven't been listened to or that they have been spoken down to.  I do get that although I don't agree with it.

And many people are now talking about voting with their wallets and all, which in honesty is in my opinion the only way to actually hold any sort of line and make any difference.

But what if Bioware came out with the next big thing.  Something which is better than Mass Effect 1.  Something better than Dragonage.  What if they came out with the new "skyrim", the game that everyone knows someone who is playing.

Will you really honestly sit it out because of principles?  It doesn't look like it if I'm honest.  You can all tick a poll that you will never buy a Bioware product ever again, but yet you still sit on their forums every day.  And now it's like all people do is complain and you have to consider, why not just go and do something fun for you?  Bioware have said what they intend to do, it isn't going to change, so if you don't like it what on earth is the point?

The only way you are going to hold any line is if you start to do what you threaten and just leave.  If they still get your money it really doesn't matter how many cupcakes you send them.   I think you guys enjoy Bioware games too much to actually go because if I didn't like a company I wouldn't waste months on trolling their forums like you guys are now.

Just get over it please, for the sake of everyone else here.  Shepard deserves better fans.

You my Sir are one of the most persistant trolls i`ve ever seen, credit for that atleast.
The fact that you actualy seem to think someone will read this and go "uh he is right, i will go off then" is just amazing.
So posting these kinda strange wishes is what? yeah right..pointless.. hmm...what does a troll post on forums again?
Besides i gotta wonder ...what exactly makes so sad bout people voicing their opinion..cause well you know..your not doing anything diffrent.
There may be some stupid people who just want to complain and took seat at the retake-side..but guess what there are plenty of people who don`t even joined the retake-movement and still complain bout the ending like me.
While our complains atleast have something to do with the topic, improving the gaming, your posts  are 90% of the time just completly offtopic and pretty much useless.
This might actualy shock you, but the world doesn`t just consist of  "good" or "bad", "right" or "wrong"..but you probably know the rest already.

There you had your 3minutes of attention..is it good now?

[AkiKishi]

DevilBeast wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

So I understand a lot of people are very upset at Bioware right now for the ending of Mass Effect and also for the perception that they have that they haven't been listened to or that they have been spoken down to.  I do get that although I don't agree with it.

And many people are now talking about voting with their wallets and all, which in honesty is in my opinion the only way to actually hold any sort of line and make any difference.

But what if Bioware came out with the next big thing.  Something which is better than Mass Effect 1.  Something better than Dragonage.  What if they came out with the new "skyrim", the game that everyone knows someone who is playing.

Will you really honestly sit it out because of principles?  It doesn't look like it if I'm honest.  You can all tick a poll that you will never buy a Bioware product ever again, but yet you still sit on their forums every day.  And now it's like all people do is complain and you have to consider, why not just go and do something fun for you?  Bioware have said what they intend to do, it isn't going to change, so if you don't like it what on earth is the point?

The only way you are going to hold any line is if you start to do what you threaten and just leave.  If they still get your money it really doesn't matter how many cupcakes you send them.   I think you guys enjoy Bioware games too much to actually go because if I didn't like a company I wouldn't waste months on trolling their forums like you guys are now.

Just get over it please, for the sake of everyone else here.  Shepard deserves better fans.

Me 3's ending made me sad enough not to want any more DLC in the ME universe.

Bioware's handling of its fans made me bitter enough to take action.

I think its going to be pretty easy for me to skip the next Mass Effect title. 

And if DA3 is AMAZING, well I can always buy it secondhand or rent it so Bioware gets NO profit.

Ever heard about something called "forgiveness"??

Forgiveness is something you earn.

And continuing to use a companies products despite stating otherwise is what??

His choice, he's not breaking any laws just exercising his options. Anyone would be wise to approach Bioware with caution in light of DA2 and ME3.

[Justin2k]

Farbautisonn wrote...

-Because its FUN!.  This is what I like about being on BSN. Playing a rhetorical game "whack a mole" with people like you plaing the part of the moles. It feeds my ego and it shows everyone else just how easy you are to pick apart.

Haha, i don't think you realise that you are not picking apart anything.  Your posts make very very little sense at all.  But you know what man?  I'm glad that you're having fun thinking that you're winning some debate that noone else is even competing in :-)  Fun is what it should be about.

I'm wondering why people who have nothing but bad things to say and feel nothing but misery while on here are still here.  But if you find some enjoyment, I'm glad.  You keep on winning those debates in your head my friend ;-)

[Farbautisonn]

thedosbox wrote...
My commiserations.  I hope you'll find something more suited to your "talents" one day.

-I did. I picked people and statements apart for politicans before I went private sector. Now I cant do that as much as I did before... But BSN is a nice quick fix.

And you still didnt reply to the real issues with your post. That you employ generalisations, fallacies, etc and that you support people who do.

Instead you employ a thinly veiled ad hominem under some feeble pseudo-intellectual guise of sarcasm. Thats grand. Plays directly into my and everyone elses prejudices.

[Hyrist]

DevilBeast wrote...

Ever wondered if this ending DLC is actually Bioware´s way of saying that they screwed up?? If they really sternly believed that this ending is awesome and is great as it is, then why would they add something extra to it??

What I think Bioware is doing right now is trying to save face; admitting that they made a crap ending might seem like a weakness to them.

If this is their means of apology, I question their methods.

Goodwill should always be re-established through humility and compromise. So far the impression has been that they have offered very little in either of these respects.

To picture the Extended Cut as some grand gesture of apology belittles the stance of all players, not just those opposed to the current ending. It implies that it views us players as lessers rather than comrades. This is indicative on how easily EA and BioWare clammed up in any responce given concern, regardless of its tone.

A civil, open, honest conversation with no witholding could have easily dispelled a lot of anger here.

- What artistic integrity are they really trying to uphold?
- What was the intended impact of the ending?
- Why are multiple endings off the table?
- What sort of closure can we come to expect from the content they have planned?

If they answered these sort of things in the forums, in as much detail as they could muster, and not be vague, it would do a world of good.

I really wish that they would understand that the humble and earnest approach here would be the best.

[Oldbones2]

DevilBeast wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...
Ever wondered if this ending DLC is actually Bioware´s way of saying that they screwed up?? If they really sternly believed that this ending is awesome and is great as it is, then why would they add something extra to it??

What I think Bioware is doing right now is trying to save face; admitting that they made a crap ending might seem like a weakness to them.

It's not an apology so much as a peace offering..

They don't want to admit to wrongdoing or anything along those lines, but they want relations to not be so sour.

Call me an optimist, but a peaceoffering is always better than nothing at all.

An apology is a peace offering.  A compromise is a peace offering.

What Bioware is giving us is neither, and doesn't have the same intent. 

Clarification DLC is being made so that other DLC will still sell.

[kbct]

Kalas82 wrote...

You my Sir are one of the most persistant trolls i`ve ever seen, credit for that atleast.
The fact that you actualy seem to think someone will read this and go "uh he is right, i will go off then" is just amazing.

I see the OP is spinning his wheels. Tenacious though.

[DevilBeast]

Oldbones2 wrote...

I think this clarifying DLC is a way to entice Retakers to buy future DLC (Omega, Map packs and such).

While some people think admitting they made a mistake is a weakness, I have always held that it is one of the bravest and most classy things a person can do.

And punishing other departments like the DA team, because of what the ME team did is classy too??

[AkiKishi]

Justin2k wrote...

Farbautisonn wrote...

-Because its FUN!.  This is what I like about being on BSN. Playing a rhetorical game "whack a mole" with people like you plaing the part of the moles. It feeds my ego and it shows everyone else just how easy you are to pick apart.

Haha, i don't think you realise that you are not picking apart anything.  Your posts make very very little sense at all.  But you know what man?  I'm glad that you're having fun thinking that you're winning some debate that noone else is even competing in :-)  Fun is what it should be about.

I'm wondering why people who have nothing but bad things to say and feel nothing but misery while on here are still here.  But if you find some enjoyment, I'm glad.  You keep on winning those debates in your head my friend ;-)

This is going to come across as a bit offensive , but whatever. It's because your too slow to see his rapier witt.

[Farbautisonn]

Justin2k wrote...
Haha, i don't think you realise that you are not picking apart anything.

-Really? So I havent exposed your blatent hypocrisy, your use of fallacies etc in this thread alone? 

  Your posts make very very little sense at all.

-Wait... I thought you "pro-enders" were supposed to be the pinnacle of intelligence here on BSN? Able to undestand the endings of ME3 and all? And yet you are unable to undestand my posts and when I point out you employ logical fallacies? and other crap rhetoric`? 

  But you know what man?  I'm glad that you're having fun thinking that you're winning some debate that noone else is even competing in :-)  Fun is what it should be about.

-Its not a debate when the other person is rhetorically unarmed. Then it becomes a rhetorical cakewalk. Thats you.

I'm wondering why people who have nothing but bad things to say and feel nothing but misery while on here are still here.  But if you find some enjoyment, I'm glad.  You keep on winning those debates in your head my friend ;-)

-If it were only in my head you would have responed to me and refuted me. But you havent because you cannot.

And that makes it even more amusing.

[AkiKishi]

DevilBeast wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

I think this clarifying DLC is a way to entice Retakers to buy future DLC (Omega, Map packs and such).

While some people think admitting they made a mistake is a weakness, I have always held that it is one of the bravest and most classy things a person can do.

And punishing other departments like the DA team, because of what the ME team did is classy too??

That's down to the individual. I never took my dislike of DA2 into ME3, ME3 has it's own issues (We all know the big one). Likewise I'm not taking it to DA3, but I'm not buying DA3 till I see some sort of proof of quality either.

[KingJason13]

...I'm still here because 14 year relationships are hard to get over, overnight...

[Oldbones2]

thedosbox wrote...

AxisEvolve wrote...

thedosbox wrote...
You're the one who made the claim of "hundred thousands".  Once you back it up, we can talk.  Until then, you're just a part of a very vocal minority.

https://www.facebook...ngToMassEffect3 

http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/ 

http://social.biowar...72/polls/29101/ 

http://news.cnet.com...fect-3s-ending/ 

https://www.facebook...50639359051633/ 

Even if there are repeats there, It's still higher than anything you can link me to.. So let's see your numbers.

Basic math: 64,000 < "hundred thousands" <<<<<<< 890,000

If we use those numbers, that works out to 7%.  That would qualify as "a small minority".

I'm not real good at math, but let me give it a try.

64,000 ≠ an insignificant number of fans even if all the rest liked the game.

64,000 do not like the endings.  Roughly 2 thousand do.  That does not mean the remaining 820,000 also like the endings.  It does mean that based on our biased survey sample, the trends suggest the ending will more disliked more than it is liked.

64,000 cared enough to vote.  So those people probably care enough to buy DLC. 

If even half hate the endings enough to never buy DLC for ME 3 that is a horrifying loss of money for Bioware.
300,000 less than they would have for every single DLC they release.

[Justin2k]

The DLC isn't a peace offering. It's a way to disperse and seperate the anti-enders. A public relations excercise.

You give them the basic of what they want. This will appease an amount of them. The people who want clarity and closure get it, while they still don't have to rewrite a whole new ending which was the core demand.

You then announce it for free, so it looks charitable, and follow that up the next day with another free DLC for multiplayer which makes them look even more charitable. This makes the retake movement look ungrateful, even though in theory the retakers have not got what it was they really wanted.

Basically with PR and spin, they can get many of the anti-enders to give them another chance, leaving a vocal group shouting they didn't get what they want. Notice there are more and more "Shepard deserves better fans" sigs popping up since yesterday? Notice there are more threads knocking the anti-enders since yesterday?  Retake has 60,000 members?  They probably lost at least 10k yesterday who just didn't unsubscribe or whatever.    It's divide and conquer.

Even things like removing Casey from PAX to take the sting out of it. This is basic 101 riot control. And i don't think the retake people even realise it. This is a PR attack directly against them and theres little they can really do about it.

Modifié par Justin2k, 06 avril 2012 - 06:05 .

[BeefoTheBold]

TC fails:

1. Voicing feedback and complaints in a respectful manner and pointing out obvious flaws in the ending is not trolling.

2. Many individuals will do what I did for ME3 if they're dissatisfied with things that Bioware is doing: get the game used and refuse to buy DLC.

3. The whole point of this forum is to allow for the type of discussion that the TC deems "trolling". It's to collect fan feedback. Just because fan feedback is currently overwhelmingly negative on a few key points does not make us bad fans. If anything, I would say sycophantic fans are the bad ones.

4. I have little faith right now in Bioware's ability to deliver a complete, polished, RPG experience that thrills from beginning to end like their games used to. They haven't done so since DAO. (ME2 is a fantastic game, but not really an RPG. Too much of a shooter IMO.)

So playing the "what if they deliver the next Skyrim" argument is analogous to my saying "What if my wife brings Scarlett Johannson home for a threesome?" Could happen, not very likely currently.

So...given all of the above, why am I still here? Because Bioware says they're listening. They were, at one point, my favorite game developer of all time. I want to believe them when they say that they are listening and intend to actually change their misguided ways since the EA acquisition.

[thedosbox]

Farbautisonn wrote...
And you still didnt reply to the real issues with your post. That you employ generalisations, fallacies, etc and that you support people who do.

You're referring to this one? http://social.biowar...8156/6#11093365

No need when there are no issues with it.  We both know it is meant to be sarcastic.

Instead you employ a thinly veiled ad hominem under some feeble pseudo-intellectual guise of sarcasm. Thats grand.

Guilty as charged.  I'm not foolish enough to take this debate too seriously.

[Oldbones2]

DevilBeast wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

I think this clarifying DLC is a way to entice Retakers to buy future DLC (Omega, Map packs and such).

While some people think admitting they made a mistake is a weakness, I have always held that it is one of the bravest and most classy things a person can do.

And punishing other departments like the DA team, because of what the ME team did is classy too??

Dragon Age 2 was hardly a gem in my eyes.

And as I said before.  ME 3's ending sadened me, but it only convinced me that I need to be more careful about my purchases and never pre order again.

Then came the Bioware's response to their fans.

That made me made.  That made it personal.

If other branches have to be punished for Ray M.'s and other Bioware execs. actions then so be it.

[AxisEvolve]

thedosbox wrote..

Basic math: 64,000 < "hundred thousands" <<<<<<< 890,000

If we use those numbers, that works out to 7%.  That would qualify as "a small minority".

You assume that most of the 890,000 don't care remember? But now that it's convenient for your argument they apparently are all on your side? How funny. 

64,000, yeah that's the number on one of the links. How about you look at the others? Add em up, sport.

RyuujinZERO wrote...
I know I for one am one of the people you cited in support of your arguement, when i in fact do not. I voted to get the ending changed. Now we're getting an ending DLC, I am content to see what happens.

 
Still, the people that voted in the poll don't like the ending, the DLC is not out yet. So you still don't like the endings, but you may when the DLC comes out. Is that fair to say? There are new polls created as of yesterday, but they are in the "too close to call" territory.

Modifié par AxisEvolve, 06 avril 2012 - 06:07 .

[Oldbones2]

DevilBeast wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Justin2k wrote...

It just seems pointless to go on ruining the forums for the real fans.

No, you are not a real fan and I a fake fan. You are just easier to please. You don't need your entertainment to make sense. You don't need Bioware to honor their promises. 

Actually, what if someone does think the endings make sense. Is your opinon then more superior than theirs??

Most fervant Pro enders I talk to seem to think their opinion/understanding of the ending is more important than mine.

[Naoe]

Killing time 'till Diablo3 comes out...
Also I enjoy discourse and debate. It keeps the few grey cells I have from withering.

[Hyrist]

Justin2k wrote...

The DLC isn't a peace offering. It's a way to disperse and seperate the anti-enders. A public relations excercise.

You give them the basic of what they want. This will appease an amount of them. The people who want clarity and closure get it, while they still don't have to rewrite a whole new ending which was the core demand.

You then announce it for free, so it looks charitable, and follow that up the next day with another free DLC for multiplayer which makes them look even more charitable. This makes the retake movement look ungrateful, even though in theory the retakers have not got what it was they really wanted.

Basically with PR and spin, they can get many of the anti-enders to give them another chance, leaving a vocal group shouting they didn't get what they want. Notice there are more and more "Shepard deserves better fans" sigs popping up since yesterday? Notice there are more threads knocking the anti-enders since yesterday?

Even things like removing Casey from PAX to take the sting out of it. This is basic 101 riot control. And i don't think the retake people even realise it. This is a PR attack directly against them and theres little they can really do about it.

And you defend such conduct? Why? Everything you described is basically underhanded business tricks which are virtually the opposite of creating a trusting bond between Developer and Audiance? How can you support a company that uses such pratices? 

The way you describe it, it demeans you more than those who oppose you for backing it.

[DevilBeast]

Oldbones2 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...
Ever wondered if this ending DLC is actually Bioware´s way of saying that they screwed up?? If they really sternly believed that this ending is awesome and is great as it is, then why would they add something extra to it??

What I think Bioware is doing right now is trying to save face; admitting that they made a crap ending might seem like a weakness to them.

It's not an apology so much as a peace offering..

They don't want to admit to wrongdoing or anything along those lines, but they want relations to not be so sour.

Call me an optimist, but a peaceoffering is always better than nothing at all.

An apology is a peace offering.  A compromise is a peace offering.

What Bioware is giving us is neither, and doesn't have the same intent. 

Clarification DLC is being made so that other DLC will still sell.

Actually, i´m looking forward to this DLC despite it only being some extra cutscenes. See, my problem with the ending wasn´t the whole starchild choose three different colors thing. I mean, ME1 and 2´s endings weren´t that varied either. My real problem was that we never really saw the long term consequences and what really happened to your team. Sure, we see the reapers being detroyed, fly away whatever and mass relays destroyed and your crew landing on some jungle planet, but that still wasn´t saying much.
No, what I really missed was a proper epilogue and I´m sure I´m not the only. And now, that Bioware seems to actually be making one I can barely get my arms down.

Now back to your last comment: Do you really think the people from the Retake movement would fall for that stunt?? The fact that a new movement has sprung up due to this announcement seems to contradict that.

Modifié par DevilBeast, 06 avril 2012 - 06:11 .