913 réponses à ce sujet

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Actually interesting that FTL tech is also attributed to Reapers.
There is an article in the codex that says about ways to fight Reapers being researched.
It was calculated that average starship travelling at FTL speed could easily obliterate the Reaper. However, FTL hardware has inherent failsafes which will prevent activation if obstacle detected on course. Hence it was hyphothetised that Reapers predicted such use of FTL technology and made sure it won't be used against them.
However, tone was that even when being inherent to very warm up process, these failsafes not *completely* impossible to remove (which should be obvious if you think about it).

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 09 avril 2012 - 10:03 .

[a.m.p]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Actually interesting that FTL tech is also attributed to Reapers.
There is an article in the codex that says about ways to fight Reapers being researched.
It was calculated that average starship travelling at FTL speed could easily obliterate the Reaper. However, FTL hardware has inherent failsafes which will prevent activation if obstacle detected on course. Hence it was hyphothetised that Reapers predicted such use of FTL technology and made sure it won't be used against them.
However, tone was that even when being inherent to very warm up process, these failsafes not *completely* impossible to remove (which should be obvious if you think about it).

Could you give a link? I really want to read that.
Because that sounds like another one of those "Here is some established lore that can be used to fight reapers. No, you can't really use it. Because." kind of codex entries.

[Solmanian]

a.m.p wrote...

Allied forces have at best 100-150 dreads,

1. Have to ask for a source on that. Genuinely interested in any definitive numbers.

reapers have atleast thousands if not hundreds of thousands of sovereign class reapers.

2. We don't know that. We don't know how often the cycles produced civilizations unsuitable for sov-class reapers (like the protheans). We don't know how many other reapers have been killed during the previous cycles (we know one of the cycles had a gun that one-hit reapers and damaged planets). We know that if we fill the green EMS bar, the interface tells us our fleets are wining "battles in key locations" (just checked it).

well need some fancy stretagies and bald tactics

3. Discussed in this thread and many others. We can blow up stars for god's sake. the only reason we don't is because the codex says we shouldn't.

Even the smallest reaper has barriers comparable to a dread.

4. I one-hit one with a cain.

I numbered your counter points for ease of reference.

1. source: codex. just look up "dreadnaught" in the ME wiki, always been my go to site. Just prior to the reaper invasion the combined turian/asari/salarian/human fleets had 83 dreads. It's is said, and shown, and mentioned that soveriegn class reapers can oneshot dreads. So we can assume that number dropped considerably when the homeworlds were attacked (the turian stand at palavan, the fall of thessia), cause I don't see their fleets just abandon their homeworlds... The turian fleet are in shambles and I'd be surprised if more than half the asari fleet survived the destruction of thessia. The human also probably lost around half of their dreads (two alliance fleets annihilated, another two down to half strength, and we know of atleast one dread being shot down over earth.) Considering the batarian dreads were probably anihilated (I don't see them as part of a refugee flett)... Quarian has the three liveships if you consider them dreads. That leaves the geth: there's only the one that mentioned, but if there were more I can't see them having more than 20 (I'm basing onthe size of the heretic fleet which was 5% of the geth forces and contained no dreads.). Yes it's a speculation, but no more than assuming the geth had more than just the one. Infact if they did have more than one, the battle with the quarians would've probably been more one sided... And that's it. except ofcourse the awesome volus dread...

2. according to the writers, in an answer to the question "if the reapers only build one soveriegn class per cycle, how do they even manage to break even?", the response was along the lines of "this cycle is unique, the reapers usually don't suffer significant losses to their fleet". And yes, hundreds of thousands was a misscalculation by my part, but saying that they have thousands of soveriegn class is more than reasonable. Consider that the oldest evidence of reapers is the billion years old leviathan of Dis. that makes for 20,000 cycles.

3. and who will be willing to blow up their homeworld? also I need a referance to the "blow up a planet", can't remember any death stars in the codex.

4. the thing you are refering to (from the first earth mission I assume), wasn't a reaper at all. it was an AA battery (they called it something like a "hades cannon"?). If you remeber, one of the final mission had you using "thanix missiles" (they better explain in the DLC how the hell those things  suppose to work... It was such a facepalm moment) loaded onto an artilary truck(?), and it took several salvos to bring one of the destroyers down. Do you think that if your handheld cain had the same firepower of a combined artilary battery armed with the best anti-reaper tech available, they would've even bothered building those missiles?

Look forward for a rebuttle...

edit: the relay stunt FTL research, is no different than why we still haven't developed a substitute for oil. We know it's gonna end someday, but it's just cheaper and easier to use it than investing in replacement. FTL drives could never compete with the speed and ease of use of the relays, so noone will invest money in "fixing something that aint broken"...

Modifié par Solmanian, 09 avril 2012 - 10:14 .

[Solmanian]

a.m.p wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Actually interesting that FTL tech is also attributed to Reapers.
There is an article in the codex that says about ways to fight Reapers being researched.
It was calculated that average starship travelling at FTL speed could easily obliterate the Reaper. However, FTL hardware has inherent failsafes which will prevent activation if obstacle detected on course. Hence it was hyphothetised that Reapers predicted such use of FTL technology and made sure it won't be used against them.
However, tone was that even when being inherent to very warm up process, these failsafes not *completely* impossible to remove (which should be obvious if you think about it).

Could you give a link? I really want to read that.
Because that sounds like another one of those "Here is some established lore that can be used to fight reapers. No, you can't really use it. Because." kind of codex entries.

Just look under "FTL" in ME wiki. though the taetrus story line realy shot a hole in it. If you're unfamiliar, it's about a seperatist pilot using his ship as a WMD, by crashing it into the Hierarchy capital on that planet at near FTL speed.

[Solmanian]

M0keys wrote...

Solmanian wrote...

The earliest reported reaper attack is 37 bilion years ago. The reapers get one sovereign class and countless destroyers per 50k cycle. Do the math.
The reapers have ALOT of experience in defeating the combined forces of the galaxy... Even hacket says that they can at best hold them off. Allied forces have at best 100-150 dreads, reapers have atleast thousands if not hundreds of thousands of sovereign class reapers. You're simply outgunned and out numbered. To defeat the reapers and their technological advantage you'll need to out number their forces atleast 3-5 over (three is cutting it close, well need some fancy stretagies and bald tactics, 5 will give you a slight advantage in a straight on fight like the one over earth). Even the smallest reaper has barriers comparable to a dread.

If this is true, the Reapers would have at least 740,000 Sovereign-class Reaper ships by Shepard's cycle

And then you do the math. And you say "oh snap", and ur laughter starts being a panicked giggle...

Just look up leviathan of Dis.

[Solmanian]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

reapers have atleast thousands if not hundreds of thousands of sovereign class reapers.

Source?

Yeah, I miscalculated about the hundreds of thousands. It still very probably over 10,000. Leviathan of Dis is a billion years old, meaning atleast 20,000 cycles, and according to the writer the reaper usually don't lose any soveriegn class reapers in their invasions. And those talking about the protheans being non-compatible, so maybe ot every cycle produced a reaper: The prothean empire was comprised of many species. Even if the original protheans were non compatible, I find it hard to believe all the species in that cycle were also. That would mean the reapers are doing a very poor job...

[Solmanian]

Well, I think I repsonded to just about every post in this thread. Time to bed.

[sp0ck 06]

Problem is, its stated many many times throughout all three games that defeating the Reapers through conventional warfare is impossible. All the assets you assemble are barely enough just to get the Crucible to the Citadel and in the meantime all offensive operations have already been abandoned.

So just adding in a "no" ending would be Shep bleeding to death while the Reapers annihilate the combined fleets and then continue the cycle? I just don't see how it could be any other way.

[a.m.p]

@ Solmanian

         1.   Thanks for these references. I'm having a feeling my next instance of going full nerd is going to be the analysis of everything that is known about the fleets. Because that issue is annoyingly confusing and keeps coming up.

As speculative (what, I'm doing what they want me to!) counterpoints, I can offer this.

1) Dreadnaughts aren't the only ships, and according to me2 codex the Thanix cannons reverse-engineered from sovereign are widely spread and can be installed even on fighters. And two hits from them can blow up a collector cruiser. The speculation here is that the collector cruiser was a sufficiently advanced ship with strong shields and not just a rock with a thruster and a cannon. Which we have no way of knowing, On one hand those guys had all sorts of reaper tech, on the other hand they were dumb.

2) Pure speculation, but what I know of history tells me that when faced with owerwhelming odds you mobilize all your resources and build more of the ships that are regularly blown up. To clarify, I am again not talking dreadnaughts. Yes, a lot of resources are being thrown at the crucible. But I refuse to believe Hackett&co did not have a plan B. If they can hide the crucible construction site from the reapers, they can hide other industrial facilities. The galaxy is huge.

          2.   I maintain that speculating about the reaper numbers is pointless. It can be anything at all, because we have zero trustworthy information. Writers don't count, if they want me to know something they should put it into the game.

         3.   I didn't say anything about homeworlds. There are a lot of relays. Most dormant. Some in uninhabited systems. Some in systems that had been almost reaped clean. And the reapers come running in packs whenever we start scanning and beeping. There is the issue of finding and accelarating a suitable rock, I guess, which is a purely engineering problem. And if it came to a choice of blowing up Sol with the bulk of their fleet, I'd probably take that.

As for the anti-reaper gun, I didn't say blow up, I said damage. Whatever killed the me2 derelict reaper then hit Klendagon in a different solar system and left a giant canyon on its surface.

         4.   "the thing you are refering to (from the first earth mission I assume), wasn't a reaper at all"  Yes it was.
Although I do agree that shooting it with a cain was silly.

Add to that, as I said, a scenario where we in some clever way use the fact that the citadel controls reapers against them and the odds are a lot more different.

As for FTL, suppose we know some reapers are in dark space (maybe we fought them and they retreated). We know that they could come back in force now that they take us seriously, take the citadel, shut down the relay network and kill us. Damn straight we'll be doing FTL or relay-building research as best we can.

Modifié par a.m.p, 09 avril 2012 - 11:08 .

[Oldbones2]

I support this thread.

And I will also say that if it's a choice between existing endings or My Shepard and allied fleets refuse the RGC and all die fighting.


I'll choose the later, every time.

[pikey1969]

First thread I saw that brings up the Gordian Knot.
A rather fitting example.
http://social.biowar.../index/11217118

[Byronic-Knight]

a.m.p wrote...

Well, let's wander into fanfiction territory. You brought that on yourself.
By the end of me3 she has a really short and simple wish list: kill reapers, grab Alenko, get married, have kids, go somewhere where there are no reporters, politicians and guns (had enough of each). Now, how much of that is achievable obviously depends on who survives, whether the relays blow up, etc. In best case scenario I can totally see them dragging her back into big galactic politics (of the behind the scenes kind, without reporters) a few years down the line, because she's a peacekeeper (krogan/everyone else relationships, anyone?) and the only person to whom everyone will be willing to listen.

That's what I mean by impossible to extrapolate. Somebody wants little blue children, somebody just wants to have sex with Liara. Someone wants to be the president of the galaxy and someone wants to seize control of the blue suns, or something.

I see your point. 

[the slynx]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Problem is, its stated many many times throughout all three games that defeating the Reapers through conventional warfare is impossible. All the assets you assemble are barely enough just to get the Crucible to the Citadel and in the meantime all offensive operations have already been abandoned.

So just adding in a "no" ending would be Shep bleeding to death while the Reapers annihilate the combined fleets and then continue the cycle? I just don't see how it could be any other way.

Several suggestions for getting around this are linked in OP's post.

Generally, a number of refusal options include damaging or sabotaging the Crucible, with effects on the Reapers from hampering coordination to weakening shields and barriers. I think these are fairly reasonable. The Geth, another synthetic race, are both weaker and less intelligent alone; if the Reapers can be disrupted in a similar way, that's another opportunity for meaningful counter-attacks.

I think many (though not all) people agree conventional force would be lacking in the war as it is, which is why the options for evening the playing field exist.

[jinxter69]

Bump and this below...

Bioware is about to MISS the OPPORTUNITY OF A LIFETIME! With an addition of new endings along with the original...This IS the ONLY WIN/WIN situation they will see. Because you allow someone's ego to stay intact by keeping the deus ex machina endings, you give the fans the logical endings THEIR Shepards should have, that keeps in mind their choices, and how they played THEIR Shepards. WIN/WIN, everyone is happy.

By actually coming out, maintaining your ending...by saying "HELL NO" to any new endings, Bioware IS in fact telling us, their "core fans" to go play in traffic. They have effectively ended their relationship with us. They are telling us to "Sit and Spin" on the one finger salute. They did NOT listen, and have done nothing but alienated their fans. Can't see how their use of the above words can EVER be construed as being done with respect. They have had EVERY opportunity to read the about the problems of their ending and have chosen to do NOTHING! I am not an idiot and do not need clarification to KNOW that their ending sucks. EGO is the only thing keeping Bio...Blunderware from doing what SOMEONE knows MUST be done. Your game is on sale for $30 in Canada and for $40 here in the states. The game only debuted last month...THIS alone should make you consider that you made a mistake. But, with the COLOSSAL egos in control at Blunderware, they will stick with their LOSE/LOSE scenario. Sticking with a mistake does NO ONE any favors.

[Byronic-Knight]

Solmanian wrote...

@BK,

You mean me? Since I see no one named BK, specifically, I assume you do. 

Aside from the fact that if you destroyed the geth, shepards entire argument is invalidated.

Then perhaps uniting the Quarians and Geth should be a pre-requisite for achieving this ending (because that would tie the decisions made earlier to the ultimate outcome)---as in, the dialogue option wouldn't even appear. I was simply using an example from my personal playthrough. And he could still use soothing the strife between the Krogan and Turians/Salarians to argue his point, although it wouldn't be as hefty a bargaining chip. 

In the words of udina: for leverage u need sticks and carrots, and shepard is in short supply of both. The forces shepard assembled are outgunned and outnumbered atleast a thousand to one (I made the calculation in another thread, suffice it to say it centered on the fact that the reapers had litaraly billions of years to build up their forces.

You know, I never liked Udina.

More to your point, the Catalyst handed you the decision to make---enslave synthetics, force a decision upon everyone to have their molecular structure rearranged, and destroy synthetics. I believe enslavment only turns me into another Illusive Man, every being should self-determinate, and after knowing Legion and EDI (to say nothing of the possiblity that destroying synthetics would cause Quarian suits to mafunction or even cease to work, along with people with biotic implants---and I don't want Jack to die, cause I love her) I would never betray them just to accomplish the goal of destroying the Reapers. Either they live as a result of my choice, or we all die.

They have experience in defeating the combined might of the galaxy, and have like 600,000 KO's on there belt.),

Only in the sense that they defeated the Protheans, and Javik admits that the only reason---or at least the main reason---that happened was because they forced other cultures to assimilate and conform to their own. It was only because of their lack of deversity that they failed, because they had no other opinion, no diverse tactics. Everything was in complete conformity. It wasn't the combined might of the galaxy, it was the might of one race and culture that was forced---through coërcion and murder---to span the breadth of the galaxy.

That was one of the major themes of the story that I felt was abandoned, especially when provided with this insight from Javik: That unified diversity (the combined races of the galaxy) can defeat coërced uniformity (the Reapers). 

Javik, at the end, laments his peoples' actions, driving the point further. 

Every military commander shep talks to, tell him they just don't have the numbers to defeat the reapers conventinaly.

Everyone in ME2, including Garrus, told you that people were going to be lost, that it was a suicide mission, that there was no coming back from the Omega 4 Relay. 

And I've seen that pointed presented before. Such a mindset is realistic---that they have you out-gunned, that they have you outnumbered---but to overcome feelings of hoplessness and stare down preceptions of futility is what separates Shepard and everyone he rolls with from everyone else. It's what makes them heroes in any sense of the word.

At the very least, it makes them able to inspire those that are at the edge of despair to take a step back from its threshold and soldier on, and do so with a vigour that makes the impossible acheivable. To do so can implant the willingness of troops to fight to their last breath, to pull the trigger until their hand is severed. . . and then to pick the gun up with the other hand and fire some more.

And that thoughtform could be the deciding factor in the battle, and that is another minor theme I felt was abandoned. Remember Shepard in the Arrival DLC: "Maybe you're right. Maybe we can't win this. But we'll fight you regardless. just like we did Sovereign. Just like I'm doing now. However 'insignificant' we might be, we will fight, we will sacrifice, and we will find a way. That's what humans do." 

Even if we can't win, we will fight. The way presented is still the will of the Catalyst, there is always another. 

Like Samara said: "If there are three humans in a room, there will be six opinions."

Diversity is our strength. Their lack of it is a major weakness. 

Let me be clear: even if the fleet took on the reapers one at a time, the reapers would still win by attrition

The defenses at the Citadel and a few extra Alliance ships were enough to take down Sovereign. I think you either overestimate the Reapers' strength, or underestimate every single warship, fighter, bomber, and frigate in the Galaxy. 

While the former could be seen as realistic, I see the latter as disgraceful to the memories of all that died beforehand and shameful to those still living's will to fight. 

That might be seen as naïve, but I would believe in my fleet every single time. If that proves to be our failing, then so be it. 

When you end your argument with: now GTFO of our galaxy! but leave all your cool toys (citadel&relays) behind... It completely deflates your argument. The citadel and relays are a means of control, meant to force galactic civilization on technological path designed by the reapers. shepard demanding the, to be kept... Is like an addict telling his dealer that he's going clean, and then proceeds to rob him of a yearly supply of crack at knife point. a real facepalm material. What great about the destruction of the relays is that it forces the galactic civilization to break away from that dead end, and evolve freely (The writers litaraly said it). people are too attached to the citadel and relays. they are just things.

The Relays are what made all this diversity, and unity, possible. The Citadel celebrates this by the very nature of it being home to so many different races. To destroy them is to the destroy the medley of cultures that make the galaxy so wonderous. (back to abandoned themes)

Even if you completely leave out the fact that it would take decades for the various races to return to their respective systems, it would only serve to breed further homogeneity, where you remove differing opinions, differeing views, interesting or unique perspectives that could solve some problem or another that you cannot see a solution to because you have no other way of looking at it. 

Take these forums, for instance. We all present our differing perspectives, and have them agreed with or argued against in a manner that has provided more ideas than the writers (or, at least it seems that way)---and I know how could sound, and it wasn't meant as an insult to anyone.

Rather than being allowed to make a choice that seems suitable to us, we are forced into decisions that many of us have detailed and logical reasons why none of those decisions are in any way appealing. And what's more, we have all presented alternate choices that we, as individuals, would make instead---being denied that ablity is what's made many of us upset---which I thought was the point of the primary mechanic of the series. 

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 10 avril 2012 - 04:24 .

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

sp0ck 06 wrote...

Problem is, its stated many many times throughout all three games that defeating the Reapers through conventional warfare is impossible. All the assets you assemble are barely enough just to get the Crucible to the Citadel and in the meantime all offensive operations have already been abandoned.

So just adding in a "no" ending would be Shep bleeding to death while the Reapers annihilate the combined fleets and then continue the cycle? I just don't see how it could be any other way.

About "anything is better than bleeding to death" - read here social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11129235 and see possible scenarios at the end of first post (this really should be in the FAQ).

And about "they said we never ever ever could conventionally win!" well, they said it before Shep managed to gather assets. People throughout the series had been underestimating, what Shepard could pull through.
Also what about "allied forces hold against Reapers steadily and winning in key locations"? This official assessment from your tactical analyzer, if you have good galactic readiness. Doesn't sound desperate at all to me, quite contrary in fact.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 10 avril 2012 - 05:10 .

[a.m.p]

pikey1969 wrote...
First thread I saw that brings up the Gordian Knot.
A rather fitting example.
http://social.biowar.../index/11217118

Linked.

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...
About "anything is better than bleeding to death" - read here social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11129235 and see possible scenarios at the end of first post (this really should be in the FAQ).

And linked.

Also updated OP with some interesting external articles and sorted the suggestions by type. So morning bump.
Also, dropped this into the feedback thread.

Modifié par a.m.p, 10 avril 2012 - 08:05 .

[moater boat]

I just answered another thread here with an idea that I humbly submit for your appraisal. I wouldn't exactly call it conventional, it's more of a so-crazy-it-just-might-work sort of strategy, but I would like to know what you think, unless you don't like, in that case just lie to me.

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/11230392/6#11240974

[a.m.p]

moater boat wrote...

I just answered another thread here with an idea that I humbly submit for your appraisal. I wouldn't exactly call it conventional, it's more of a so-crazy-it-just-might-work sort of strategy, but I would like to know what you think, unless you don't like, in that case just lie to me.

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/11230392/6#11240974

Thanks for the thread. Linking.
The idea itself, like so many others brought up over the last month, makes more sense than what the existing endings propose to do. Stuff like that should have been brought up during the game itself, as an assurance that the rest of the galaxy isn't sitting on their asses waiting for Shepard to solve all their problems.

Edit: Because the way things are the premise of reapers being absolutely unbeatable requires literary everyone, except sometimes Shepard, to be a complete and utter idiot.

Modifié par a.m.p, 10 avril 2012 - 10:28 .

[a.m.p]

Updated with poll. Anyone who gives a damn, please vote.

[Subject M]

Defeating the Reapers conventionally should not be an option. Its not their narrative function.
Their function is to be the cosmic threat that can only be countered by indirect and highly unconventional means. The purpose of meeting them in battle is only to buy those taking the ring to mount doom more time.

Modifié par Subject M, 10 avril 2012 - 12:58 .

[Noelemahc]

Voted. I would be content if we got at least THIS level of changes, though I secretly wish for more.

I'm still appaled that nobody throughout ME3 ever mentions the Klendagon Cannon. Imma go edit it into my "what if the Reapers destroy Earth and the yahg rule the next cycle" theory now.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 10 avril 2012 - 01:28 .

[a.m.p]

Subject M wrote...

Defeating the Reapers conventionally should not be an option. Its not their narrative function.
Their function is to be the cosmic threat that can only be countered by indirect and highly unconventional means. The purpose of meeting them in battle is only to buy those taking the ring to mount doom more time.

What about defeating the reapers by conventional means after using the citadel and the crucible (not the way the current endings suggest) to weaken/disorient them? For examples see the second post in this thread, there are quite a few of them.

[Marta Rio II]

Oooh, a poll, I voted. And for the record I still think this is a good compromise.