913 réponses à ce sujet

[the slynx]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

By that do you mean if the Crucible weakened the Reapers?

Well they'd still be able to Indoctrinate people, and even weakened their losses wouldn't be as much of a hard hit to them as the losses they could make.

And anyway, if it nerfed even those aspects of them, then it's just a long version of the destroy ending. I don't see how ending haters could want that. And if it didn't destroy the relays it'd just be a longer but better version of the destroy ending, undermining the destroy ending.

I actually think many do want a different version of destroy, that doesn't come on Sky Kid terms.

I'm not convinced that it would undermine the destroy ending, unless it were unduly optimistic. In destroy, you win at the cost of losing the geth (if you didn't already killthem) and other synthetics. (Apparently several creators have said all galactic tech isn't destroyed via this ending, although it sounded to me like it would be.) The trade-off is you win immediately, save all planets, and lose no further organic lives. That sounds in keeping with Renegade options: you save your species at the cost of synthetics, and the rewards are immediate. It may sound unprincipled, but it's practical, like many Renegade decisions - a kind of tough love. In short, destroy comes off like a 'Renegade No' option. (And theoretically, Shepard lives if your war assets are sufficient, although I'm not sure I understand how that happens.)

In a rejection option, you could still defeat the Reapers, and you wouldn't lose the Geth, but you would be prolonging the war for months or years, at the cost of countless lives, and possibly of entire planets being lost. In other words, you keep your moral principles, but your victory, if it happens, takes much longer, and comes at a huge human (alien?) cost. That to me sounds a lot like a 'Paragon No' option. I think it sounds 'better', but I am a mostly Paragon player; it certainly isn't a freebie.

Anyyway, there's a link in my signature to a scenario like this I've sketched out; I think it's a little too optimistic as it is, and would rather make the consequences tougher, but the general point is there. I appreciate the response you've given so far and I'm curious what you make of the case laid out in that link. I tend to believe that there can be a balanced 'no' option that doesn't break the existing endings, and criticisms from someone who thinks it might are valuable in helping me figure out how it can be improved.

I'm late for work.

[Clayless]

But you would lose.

If you said no to the kid, the galaxy would be doomed, they hit that point over our head again and again.

I think it was this thread where I pointed out the possible numbers of the Reapers? Even at a ridiculous understatement there would still be 20,000 Sovereign class ones.

[Eterna]

You should be able to say no, but the result is everyone dies.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

But you would lose.

If you said no to the kid, the galaxy would be doomed, they hit that point over our head again and again.

I think it was this thread where I pointed out the possible numbers of the Reapers? Even at a ridiculous understatement there would still be 20,000 Sovereign class ones.

If you did read proper responses, you'd understand that in fact your claim about Reaper numbers sound ridiculous.
With 20000 cap ships (and assuming we still need about 4 dreads to take cap ship down), remember about 100 dreads in total for all galaxy.
This is 800:1 superiority! Why Reapers would encounter any trouble at all with superiority like that, you don't need Saren, you don't need Conduit or Alpha Relay or whatever. You just arrive and squash them like an ant, in several hours.
Reapers numbers were never confirmed in canon and I think because of that writers didn't tie all loose ends, therefore lore contradicts what we observe in game events.
In every cutscene I've seen, there were observable lower numbers of Cap Ships than allied forces. Where this 800:1 superiority again?

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 12 avril 2012 - 06:54 .

[Daedalus1773]

CapnManx wrote...

It's stated clearly that the Reapers can't be defeated by conventional means, and that the Crucible is their only real hope.

Two words: Thannix Cannons.

Nobody else ever had them before in any cycle. Reaper weapons vs Reaper ships means all "conventional warfare" assumptions & bets should be off, IMO.  Too bad they never made an appearance in the final battle where they'd actually be needed.

Modifié par Daedalus1773, 12 avril 2012 - 06:52 .

[Clayless]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

But you would lose.

If you said no to the kid, the galaxy would be doomed, they hit that point over our head again and again.

I think it was this thread where I pointed out the possible numbers of the Reapers? Even at a ridiculous understatement there would still be 20,000 Sovereign class ones.

If you did read proper responses, you'd understand that in fact your claim about Reaper numbers sound ridiculous.
With 20000 cap ships (and assuming we still need about 4 dreads to take cap ship down), remember about 100 dreads in total for all galaxy.
This is 800:1 superiority! Why Reapers would encounter any trouble at all with superiority like that, you don't need Saren, you don't need Conduit or Alpha Relay or whatever. You just arrive and squash them like an ant, in several hours.
Reapers numbers were never confirmed in canon and I think because of that writers didn't tie all loose ends, therefore lore contradicts what we observe in game events.

But it's also more logical to minimise your losses.

Plus the Reapers were mostly harvesting people, they were only mainly destroying their militaries. And the Reapers did squash everyone, look what they managed to do to the Humans, Turians and Asari in such a short space of time.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

But it's also more logical to minimise your losses.

Plus the Reapers were mostly harvesting people, they were only mainly destroying their militaries. And the Reapers did squash everyone, look what they managed to do to the Humans, Turians and Asari in such a short space of time.

Sorry, you don't make sense.
What "minimises losses" more, attacking 800:1 or attacking 2:3 (like we see in all space battle cutscenes)?
If you could dedicate 200 reaper ships vs one allied ship - why do you just say "ah, I won't bother about fleets, I will just concentrate on reaping civilians and let their militaries pummel my operations". Why you don't just *annihilate* all military assets in several hours, no, it won't even take an hour with this numbers?

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 12 avril 2012 - 07:00 .

[Daedalus1773]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

But you would lose.

If you said no to the kid, the galaxy would be doomed, they hit that point over our head again and again.

I think it was this thread where I pointed out the possible numbers of the Reapers? Even at a ridiculous understatement there would still be 20,000 Sovereign class ones.

If you did read proper responses, you'd understand that in fact your claim about Reaper numbers sound ridiculous.
With 20000 cap ships (and assuming we still need about 4 dreads to take cap ship down), remember about 100 dreads in total for all galaxy.
This is 800:1 superiority! Why Reapers would encounter any trouble at all with superiority like that, you don't need Saren, you don't need Conduit or Alpha Relay or whatever. You just arrive and squash them like an ant, in several hours.
Reapers numbers were never confirmed in canon and I think because of that writers didn't tie all loose ends, therefore lore contradicts what we observe in game events.

The Quarian fleet alone has over 50,000 ships. All of them armed.  And the Reapers are very obviously spread out attacking many places around the galaxy simultaneously.  Armed with Thanix Cannons (the same weapons Reaper ships use), there's no reason the Reapers couldn't be beaten conventionally.

With the combined Human, Turian, Asari, Quarian, Geth, Volus & other miscellaneous fleets (over 100,000 ships, plausibly) the battle versus the finite # of Reapers at Earth could be won handily. Especially with surprise on their side, and perhaps whatever realistic MacGuffin ability the writers decide to give to the Crucible (disable Reaper shields, whatever).

At that point the Reapers would probably have to consolidate their forces to stand against a combined galactic fleet that size. At which point the Reapers can no longer be everywhere at once to crush the galaxy's ability to manufacture warships en masse. Time is now working against the Reapers. Reapers can't replace their losses easily, whereas the galaxy is a very (very) big place, and everyone is now making ships with Thanix cannons to deal with Reapers.

Modifié par Daedalus1773, 12 avril 2012 - 07:02 .

[Byronic-Knight]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

And anyway a happy ending, one where everything is perfect and the Citadel is fine and the Relays are fine and Shepard lives and his squad lives, would undermine every other ending, as it'd make every ending bar that one suck.

That would go against the theme of the series where you have to make a hard decisions. That's not a hard decision, that's an easy one.

Not only that, if it was achieved by anything other than the Crucible it'd be even worse.

Umm, try thinking from the Shepard's point of view, don't break the character. Even if refusing the starchild will ultimately result in "best ending", how hell Shepard could know about it? In fact, everybody pretty much said over and over that its impossible, its pointless, etc.
So how it makes it "easy decision"? Its only easy if Shepard magically can realize that he is a videogame character and look on the internet what all 4 choices will do.
It's not easy for player either unless player already spoiled about what will happen in all cases after he will choose or refuse to choose.

^ Pretty much this ^

You don't know beforehand if you have enough war assets, if you did the right things, to make achieving the warm and fuzzy ending that some people are absolutely adamant against being present---much like at the end of ME2, when you pick your two person squad for the last time to go fight (what you find out to be) a big half-assembled human Reaper, you don't know if any of those that were left to hold the door survived until it's over and you're back on the Normandy. A few playthroughs, people I had loyal died (Tali most of the time). 

So, in this, you would make your choice, see the StarKid accept your decision (or turn into Harbinger to say "so be it"---saw that in one of the suggestions, really liked it), watch a bit of the battle, the kid could ask if you're sure (if he doesn't transform---again, from one of the suggestions), you could choose or resist again, and then see the final cut-scene to find out whether or not your EMS was high enough, or if you're all killed, or some variable state in between. 

To refuse, and fall back on the army that everyone said was useless---to which, if someone says it again, Shep could just say, "I don't believe that" or "I have faith in you to get the job done, don't let me down" or "All our hope lies with you now, make me proud" or "Prove It"---is just as much a difficult decision as choosing whether to enslave or destroy an entire race of sentient beings, or forcibly merge all life on a molecular level, regardless of any of any individual contained within said life's wills, wishes, or opinions. It would be a choice between playing god or retaining humanity.


And again, if you did get the "super happy/perfect" ending, it would only be ONE of the endings, and it wouldn't be easily attainable. And it would still be bittersweet because of the friends you lost along the way anyhow (Kaidan/Ash, Thane, Legion, Mordin, etc.).

Another one could possibly be that the Citadel and Relays are there, but Shep dies. It would be solemn, with a funeral but very respectful. Another could be that the Citadel is destroyed but the Relays stay and Shep dies, again, funeral, more deaths. And so on, in gradual states of disrepair to the Earth, the Fleet, etc. etc. 

All we're doing is spit-balling, and making suggestions. To have different options based upon what we would do if we were in the situation, (which is what we were promised word for word*) and to say "No" was literally the first thing that popped into my head when I was playing the ending---given that my pilot formed an emotional relationship with a robot, I got the Quarians and Geth to make-up, and finding out that the Quarians shot first during the "Uprising"---yet the in-game option to do so was absent. I could set aside the fact that the machine for synthesis makes no sense whatsoever (so, I leap into a beam of energy, and that somehow splices DNA and Circuitry? how does that. . .). I could overlook that if I would have just been able to refuse. 


*
I'm always leery of saying 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are optimal for different people." -- Mac Walters

There are many different endings. We wouldn't do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns as playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can't say any more than that." -- Mike Gamble

"Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens." -- Mike Gamble

"We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player decide what your story is." -- Casey Hudson

"For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations." -- Casey Hudson

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 13 avril 2012 - 08:01 .

[Clayless]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

But it's also more logical to minimise your losses.

Plus the Reapers were mostly harvesting people, they were only mainly destroying their militaries. And the Reapers did squash everyone, look what they managed to do to the Humans, Turians and Asari in such a short space of time.

Sorry, you don't make sense.
What "minimises losses" more, attacking 800:1 or attacking 2:3 (like we see in all space battle cutscenes)?
If you could dedicate 200 reaper ships vs one allied ship - why do you just say "ah, I won't bother about fleets, I will just concentrate on reaping civilians and let their militaries pummel my operations". Why you don't just *annihilate* all military assets in several hours, no, it won't even take an hour with this numbers?

Your choices are:

Wipe out everyone in a way that you'll take almost no losses and will win.

Or

Wipe out everyone in a way that you'll take a lot more losses but will still win.

It doesn't matter how powerful the Reapers are, choosing option 2 over number 1 isn't logical, which is why the Reapers tried number 1 until they no longer could.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Daedalus1773 wrote...

The Quarian fleet alone has over 50,000 ships. All of them armed.  

True, just another point of writer's didn't tie each other numbers together.
Quarian fleet just freighter ships with guns mainly, all we know is "need 4 conventional dreads vs one Reaper". We not sure how this usual Quarian civilian ship with guns will compare with dread (or how Thanix cannos make it better). We can speculate till end of days.
It's a mess.

[Daedalus1773]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

The Quarian fleet alone has over 50,000 ships. All of them armed.  

True, just another point of writer's didn't tie each other numbers together.
Quarian fleet just freighter ships with guns mainly, all we know is "need 4 conventional dreads vs one Reaper". We not sure how this usual Quarian civilian ship with guns will compare with dread (or how Thanix cannos make it better). We can speculate till end of days.
It's a mess.

We're agreed it's a mess. There was a mention in ME3 that each Quarian Liveship is armed equivalent to a conventional dreadnaught, altho I don't remember the exact phrasing.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

But it's also more logical to minimise your losses.

Plus the Reapers were mostly harvesting people, they were only mainly destroying their militaries. And the Reapers did squash everyone, look what they managed to do to the Humans, Turians and Asari in such a short space of time.

Sorry, you don't make sense.
What "minimises losses" more, attacking 800:1 or attacking 2:3 (like we see in all space battle cutscenes)?
If you could dedicate 200 reaper ships vs one allied ship - why do you just say "ah, I won't bother about fleets, I will just concentrate on reaping civilians and let their militaries pummel my operations". Why you don't just *annihilate* all military assets in several hours, no, it won't even take an hour with this numbers?

Your choices are:

Wipe out everyone in a way that you'll take almost no losses and will win.

Or

Wipe out everyone in a way that you'll take a lot more losses but will still win.

It doesn't matter how powerful the Reapers are, choosing option 2 over number 1 isn't logical, which is why the Reapers tried number 1 until they no longer could.

Sorry, I try last time before I give up on you.

Say, you have 2000 soldiers. Each one is 4 times powerful than one enemy soldier.
The enemy has only 10 soldiers.

Which way you will lose less?
a) attacking with all of your 2000 soldiers
attacking with 10 of your soldiers and letting the rest hide?

edit: altered a bit to make it less granular

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 12 avril 2012 - 07:11 .

[Clayless]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

The Quarian fleet alone has over 50,000 ships. All of them armed.  

True, just another point of writer's didn't tie each other numbers together.
Quarian fleet just freighter ships with guns mainly, all we know is "need 4 conventional dreads vs one Reaper". We not sure how this usual Quarian civilian ship with guns will compare with dread (or how Thanix cannos make it better). We can speculate till end of days.
It's a mess.

20,000 Reapers if they made 1 per cycle (an incredibly low number)

100 billion if they harvested 1 billion species per cycle and it took 10 million of a species to make 1 Sovereign class reaper. Not counting all the destroyers that make up the bulk, or Oculus.

[Noelemahc]

There was a mention in ME3 that each Quarian Liveship is armed equivalent to a conventional dreadnaught, altho I don't remember the exact phrasing.

Yes, there was. It also leads into an in-universe discussion that the Quarian fleet is now technically the most powerful in the galaxy, what between them arming anything that can fly and the turians taking a beating.

[Clayless]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Sorry, I try last time before I give up on you.

Say, you have 200 soldiers. Each one is 4 times powerful than one enemy soldier.
The enemy has only 1 soldier.

Which way you will lose less?
a) attacking with all of your 200 soldiers
attacking with one of your soldiers and letting the rest hide?

Wrong.

Getting 1 soldier to teleport the other 199 behind enemy lines and take out their leadership in one move and cutting off all their travel at the same time and isolating them.

Or

Attacking with all 200 skipping that first step.

[Daedalus1773]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

The Quarian fleet alone has over 50,000 ships. All of them armed.  

True, just another point of writer's didn't tie each other numbers together.
Quarian fleet just freighter ships with guns mainly, all we know is "need 4 conventional dreads vs one Reaper". We not sure how this usual Quarian civilian ship with guns will compare with dread (or how Thanix cannos make it better). We can speculate till end of days.
It's a mess.

20,000 Reapers if they made 1 per cycle (an incredibly low number)

100 billion if they harvested 1 billion species per cycle and it took 10 million of a species to make 1 Sovereign class reaper. Not counting all the destroyers that make up the bulk, or Oculus.

Where is it canon that there have been 20,000 cycles? Curious if I missed a Codex somewhere.

1 billion advanced spacefaring species per cycle is a ridiculous number.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Daedalus1773 wrote...

Where is it canon that there have been 20,000 cycles? Curious if I missed a Codex somewhere.

It's a speculation which stems from following assumptions:
- Leviathan of Dis was a normal Reaper which already took part in standard cycle
- Cycles went like a clock, 50000 years each

[Clayless]

Daedalus1773 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

The Quarian fleet alone has over 50,000 ships. All of them armed.  

True, just another point of writer's didn't tie each other numbers together.
Quarian fleet just freighter ships with guns mainly, all we know is "need 4 conventional dreads vs one Reaper". We not sure how this usual Quarian civilian ship with guns will compare with dread (or how Thanix cannos make it better). We can speculate till end of days.
It's a mess.

20,000 Reapers if they made 1 per cycle (an incredibly low number)

100 billion if they harvested 1 billion species per cycle and it took 10 million of a species to make 1 Sovereign class reaper. Not counting all the destroyers that make up the bulk, or Oculus.

Where is it canon that there have been 20,000 cycles? Curious if I missed a Codex somewhere.

1 billion advanced spacefaring species per cycle is a ridiculous number.

The Reapers are at least 1 billion years old according to the Levianthan of Dis.

Not 1 billion species, 1 billion individuals of the species sutible for Sovereign class Reapers. That's less that 10% of the humans on Earth alone.

[Daedalus1773]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

Where is it canon that there have been 20,000 cycles? Curious if I missed a Codex somewhere.

It's a speculation which stems from following assumptions:
- Leviathan of Dis was a normal Reaper which already took part in standard cycle
- Cycles went like a clock, 50000 years each

Then yeah by that math there's a buttload of Reapers.

[daecath]

Ok, I am an ardent supporter that starbrat is just stupid, and should be removed.

However, if BioWare is going to be so committed to him that they refuse to see all the literary rules they're breaking just to keep him, I suppose that a compromise is better than nothing (which the extended DLC right now is nothing).

So, here is what I would need, bare minimum, to be satisfied. First, some other option or options that allow you to go tell this kid to go... away (to put it mildly). Second, change the kid. I don't know why it appears in the form of a child that Shepard is now probably the only person alive who's seen him. Make him an alien, make him a Shepard clone, make him Avina, something that makes more sense than a dead kid that no one else alive in the universe has seen. Third, there has to be a chance for a happy ending, and a bad ending. I want blue babies!

Fourth, sweeten the pot. I've suggested elsewhere, but here are a couple easy to add things that would make it a little easier to take:
Emily Wong's death recorded in game. You get to see her last broadcast, maybe even see her take down a reaper. Or listen to a first hand account from a survivor on Earth that saw her do it.
Kal'Reegar's death recorded. Again, a great character that everyone seemed to like, who got shafted in the way his death was handled. A recording, something. Doesn't have to be too long. Maybe a nice scene with Tali as you both listen to his final recorded message.
Tali's face. We've been waiting for 5 years to see this. The quarians are described as even more beautiful than asari. And the best you can come up with is a poorly photoshopped stock photo? At the very least, take the voice actress for Tali and come up with something from her.
Retake armor & weapons - Major Kirahee has a special gift for you.
Alter Marauder Shields to make him stand out a bit more. Maybe even pull a Morinth, and use the fan's creation that it is really Nihlis.

Those would be simple things, but really nice gestures to add in. I think if they did all of these, and offered the ending compromise, I would be satisfied. It wouldn't go down in history as my favorite game ever, which is what I was hoping for, but it would at least be a game that I could play multiple times.

[a.m.p]

Daedalus1773 wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

Where is it canon that there have been 20,000 cycles? Curious if I missed a Codex somewhere.

It's a speculation which stems from following assumptions:
- Leviathan of Dis was a normal Reaper which already took part in standard cycle
- Cycles went like a clock, 50000 years each

Then yeah by that math there's a buttload of Reapers.

It also dismisses the possibility that some time during those thousands of cycles there could be civilizations strong enough to put up a fight and inflict serious casualties on the reapers before being wiped out.
We do know that at one point there was a civilization that managed to one-hit at least one sovereign-class reaper with a weapon that fired rounds capable of travelling to another solar system and damaging a planet.

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

Where is it canon that there have been 20,000 cycles? Curious if I missed a Codex somewhere.

It's a speculation which stems from following assumptions:
- Leviathan of Dis was a normal Reaper which already took part in standard cycle
- Cycles went like a clock, 50000 years each

Then yeah by that math there's a buttload of Reapers.

It also dismisses the possibility that some time during those thousands of cycles there could be civilizations strong enough to put up a fight and inflict serious casualties on the reapers before being wiped out.
We do know that at one point there was a civilization that managed to one-hit at least one sovereign-class reaper with a weapon that fired rounds capable of travelling to another solar system and damaging a planet.

It doesn't dismiss the claim, it just shows that even with losses there'd still be an insane amount of Reapers.

You have to remember that from what we know of every other cylce, the relays were turned off and the governments were destroyed.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
You have to remember that from what we know of every other cylce, the relays were turned off and the governments were destroyed.

... and it still took them several centuries to finish the cycle.
Keep digging.

[StElmo]

Saying no to starchild won't fix the glaring logical inconsistencies of it's appearence.

I wouldn't mind the last three options IF it made sense, but it doesn't. Unless you believe IT.