913 réponses à ce sujet

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Still doesn't mean they couldn't lose. All that matters if you manage to keep ahead, to maintain the initiative. Like Protheans managed to do with Conduit, which made a big blow to the Reapers, and they were in way more nightmarish position.

Again, Ilos/Conduit only survived by going COMPLETELY underground for centuries, to the point that they couldn't even gather external energy, cultivate food etc. Any signs of life on the surface would have attracted attention.

Yep, but they still managed to inflict quite a blow to the Reapers, right?
As I am saying, it does not matter that Reapers can "adapt". All it matters who adapts faster.

[PsyrenY]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Yep, but they still managed to inflict quite a blow to the Reapers, right?
As I am saying, it does not matter that Reapers can "adapt". All it matters who adapts faster.

But that's not a "conventional victory" either. At best you would deal some kind of sneak attack/sabotage to assist the next cycle, while again dooming your own.

The only way an Ilos-style gambit could work would be to sneak on board and activate the Crucible while the Reapers are otherwise occupied. There is no other central base from which they could all be defeated.

[a.m.p]

Question. Reapers are repeatedly attacked by large fleets in more or less tight formation. Because that's what it takes to take them out. Why don't they adapt to it and make new weapons with a wider damage radius to take out multiple ships at once instead of shooting them down one by one with their beams while the rest chew on their kinetic barriers? The reapers we have seen are showing next to no adaptability. They have stayed exactly the same for millions or even billions of years.

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...

Question. Reapers are repeatedly attacked by large fleets in more or less tight formation. Because that's what it takes to take them out. Why don't they adapt to it and make new weapons with a wider damage radius to take out multiple ships at once instead of shooting them down one by one with their beams while the rest chew on their kinetic barriers? The reapers we have seen are showing next to no adaptability. They have stayed exactly the same for millions or even billions of years.

You keep saying things like "why don't we invent new weapons" or "why don't we use new tactics" as though that's in any way a trivial proposition. The only source of technology that can notably improve what the galaxy is currently working with comes from one place, and any scientists that try to use it get indoctrinated.

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Question. Reapers are repeatedly attacked by large fleets in more or less tight formation. Because that's what it takes to take them out. Why don't they adapt to it and make new weapons with a wider damage radius to take out multiple ships at once instead of shooting them down one by one with their beams while the rest chew on their kinetic barriers? The reapers we have seen are showing next to no adaptability. They have stayed exactly the same for millions or even billions of years.

You keep saying things like "why don't we invent new weapons" or "why don't we use new tactics" as though that's in any way a trivial proposition. The only source of technology that can notably improve what the galaxy is currently working with comes from one place, and any scientists that try to use it get indoctrinated.

Then I present you my FTL anti-reaper torpedoes. Source of technology - widely used FTL plotters + turian terrorists. Feasibility of production discussed in the thread to some extent.
If we're looking at a scenario where we can successfully hold out for even a few years and aren't busy building silly doomsday devices, it's even easier.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Yep, but they still managed to inflict quite a blow to the Reapers, right?
As I am saying, it does not matter that Reapers can "adapt". All it matters who adapts faster.

But that's not a "conventional victory" either.

Ah, yes, true. Well, then this means maybe that I am not proponent of "purely conventional" warfare. In fact, I think that more unconventional thinking is needed, the better.
I guess I just don't quite want to accept Reapers as undefeatable gods... 

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 17 avril 2012 - 03:35 .

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Optimystic_X wrote...
The only source of technology that can notably improve what the galaxy is currently working with comes from one place, and any scientists that try to use it get indoctrinated.

Now now, *this* is a very negative thinking sir! Almost like you accepted that "Reapers are our salvation, can't do anything without them" 

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...

Then I present you my FTL anti-reaper torpedoes.

You can armchair-invent a variety of tech using codex entries. That doesn't make it feasible in-universe.

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

I guess I just don't quite want to accept Reapers as undefeatable gods... 

But they're not!
How many gods do you know that can be wiped out by shooting a pipe?

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Optimystic_X wrote...
But they're not!
How many gods do you know that can be wiped out by shooting a pipe?

We should've made a better pipe...

[sistersafetypin]

There needs to be a way to win while turning down the DEMon Child

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Then I present you my FTL anti-reaper torpedoes.

You can armchair-invent a variety of tech using codex entries. That doesn't make it feasible in-universe.

Why not? I am using established lore (unlike whoever came up with synthesis). There is nothing to indicate that it's impossible. There are some concerns about precision, cost and range but we, again, have no data to make conclusions on those.
Unless a ME writer tells me what I'm proposing doesn't work because it wouldn't do enough damage/be accurate enough/some other valid reason, the idea stands.

Modifié par a.m.p, 17 avril 2012 - 03:59 .

[inko1nsiderate]

If they spend the whole game telling you 'you can't beat the Reapers conventionally', and then you end up beating them conventionally, isn't that pretty stupid? In the very least you'll have to pull an Independence Day, and upload some kinetic barrier removing virus onto Harbinger or some other non-sense. And since the game had made it pretty clear that the crucible was the real solution another solution that comes in at the last minute and saves the day would unequivocally be a deus ex machina.

@a.m.p.

I believe there is actually a codex about it. FTL drives have a warm up sequence that ends any FTL speeds if there is a large object in the way. The sequence is such an integral part of FTL that it is pretty much impossible to remove it. In fact, there is speculation this part of the FTL sequence is actually the doing of the Reapers so you can't use FTL mass drivers to fight them (as that would most definitely work). All of that is in a codex.  If you suddenly introduce it at the end, haven't you really just replaced one deus ex machina that feels shoe horned in, with another one?
'

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 17 avril 2012 - 04:07 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

I fully support this kind of compromise.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

inko1nsiderate wrote...
In the very least you'll have to pull an Independence Day, and upload some kinetic barrier removing virus onto Harbinger or some other non-sense.  
'

Wait, I thought that describes exactly what happened anyway?  They just "Oh wait, see, there are some *Kill All Reapers* weapon blueprints right on our backyard on Mars, who would've known!" 

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 17 avril 2012 - 04:13 .

[Douglas-042]

bump

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...

Why not? I am using established lore (unlike whoever came up with synthesis). There is nothing to indicate that it's impossible. There are some concerns about precision, cost and range but we, again, have no data to make conclusions on those.
Unless a ME writer tells me what I'm proposing doesn't work because it wouldn't do enough damage/be accurate enough/some other valid reason, the idea stands.

Then let it stand. The fact is that your proposition does not exist, and likely never will.

Also, what inko1 said.

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...
In the very least you'll have to pull an Independence Day, and upload some kinetic barrier removing virus onto Harbinger or some other non-sense.  
'

Wait, I thought that describes exactly what happened anyway?  They just "Oh wait, see, there are some *Kill All Reapers* weapon blueprints right on our backyard on Mars, who would've known!" 

Indeed it was - and that isn't "conventional" victory.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 17 avril 2012 - 04:18 .

[a.m.p]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

@a.m.p.

I believe there is actually a codex about it. FTL drives have a warm up sequence that ends any FTL speeds if there is a large object in the way. The sequence is such an integral part of FTL that it is pretty much impossible to remove it. In fact, there is speculation this part of the FTL sequence is actually the doing of the Reapers so you can't use FTL mass drivers to fight them (as that would most definitely work). All of that is in a codex.  If you suddenly introduce it at the end, haven't you really just replaced one deus ex machina that feels shoe horned in, with another one?
'

I know. There is also a huge Cerberus News Network plot about how it can be removed and was removed. This is what my idea is based on.

As to it being not real - I'm certainly not pretending it's real. I'm saying that there are potential ways that a conventional victory could be justified within the game's lore. My idea is just an example of how.

There are a number of restoration threads where people come up with vaguely lore-based ideas how the galaxy could overcome the loss of the relays. As far as I understand something similar is going to be brought up in the EC DLC, since they are backpedaling on the whole dark age thing. Well those ideas are way more complicated to implement in-universe than what I'm proposing.

[PsyrenY]

They're not "backpedaling" on the "dark age thing" - there was none to begin with. Just melodramatic fans assuming that they would destroy the entire galaxy for no reason.

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

They're not "backpedaling" on the "dark age thing" - there was none to begin with. Just melodramatic fans assuming that they would destroy the entire galaxy for no reason.

Well, I guess we'll never know that, since they are being purposefully vague.

[PsyrenY]

a.m.p wrote...
Well, I guess we'll never know that, since they are being purposefully vague.

That's what the Extended Cut is for, to prove that.

Also: "Spoiler alert: no one starves to death"

[inko1nsiderate]

a.m.p wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...

@a.m.p.

I believe there is actually a codex about it. FTL drives have a warm up sequence that ends any FTL speeds if there is a large object in the way. The sequence is such an integral part of FTL that it is pretty much impossible to remove it. In fact, there is speculation this part of the FTL sequence is actually the doing of the Reapers so you can't use FTL mass drivers to fight them (as that would most definitely work). All of that is in a codex.  If you suddenly introduce it at the end, haven't you really just replaced one deus ex machina that feels shoe horned in, with another one?
'

I know. There is also a huge Cerberus News Network plot about how it can be removed and was removed. This is what my idea is based on.

As to it being not real - I'm certainly not pretending it's real. I'm saying that there are potential ways that a conventional victory could be justified within the game's lore. My idea is just an example of how.

There are a number of restoration threads where people come up with vaguely lore-based ideas how the galaxy could overcome the loss of the relays. As far as I understand something similar is going to be brought up in the EC DLC, since they are backpedaling on the whole dark age thing. Well those ideas are way more complicated to implement in-universe than what I'm proposing.

No, you're missing the point.  The whole damn game you are told 'you can't beat the Reapers conventionally'.  In fact, the whole series you are.  Every cycle before you has tried conventional, and non-conventional, means to defeat the Reapers and failed.  The protheans had better technology, and a larger empire, and still they lost.  They were even willing to go to extreme lengths to win.  Still lost. 

Even if you have some justification for this new technology that pops up at the end, you've still broken the narative.  The end with this 'conventional' option would be shoe horned in, and it would be disjointed.  Why would Hackette keep saying the crucible is the only way (he says it as you go to Mars, not even a full 10 minutes into the game), and keep harping on the 'can't beat the Reapers convetionally' all damn game if it weren't true?  If at the the end of the game you get a short conversation: 'Uh, turns out we built some new weapon.  Sorry, I realize this Crucible business sounds great, but we have to do what we said was never going to happent he whole game, and abbandon the Crucible even though we put every effort into building it.  Oh, and we were able to do it without access to the galaxy's best scientists, beacuse they were all working on the Crucible'.  It raises a lot of questions.  As many, if not more, than the current ending.

To make your ending fit, you'd have to re-write the entire game.  Even if the endings suck, and need to be entirely re-written and replaced wholesale, you can't expect anyone to sit down and change the entire story they've told just to make this conventional warfare ending fit.  If there is to be an alternative ending, it can't be this.  You have to use the crucible in some way or change the entire game.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 17 avril 2012 - 04:50 .

[a.m.p]

Optimystic_X wrote...

a.m.p wrote...
Well, I guess we'll never know that, since they are being purposefully vague.

That's what the Extended Cut is for, to prove that.

Also: "Spoiler alert: no one starves to death"

I don't know and I honestly don't care whether the original intent was to reboot the universe and now they are fixing that very bad idea, or the galaxy was always supposed to recover and now they're fixing the poor execution. As long as the EC makes some sense it will aleady be a step in the right direction.

[a.m.p]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

To make your ending fit, you'd have to re-write the entire game.  Even if the endings suck, and need to be entirely re-written and replaced wholesale, you can't expect anyone to sit down and change the entire story they've told just to make this conventional warfare ending fit.  If there is to be an alternative ending, it can't be this.  You have to use the crucible in some way or change the entire game.

Well yes, to make ME3 into a truly great story you would have to redo the whole crucible plot. Which isn't happening.
Or at least rewrite the whole starchild scene, which isn't happening either, as far as I understand.
That's why it is a compromise. It doesn't make the endings not broken. The plot holes stay. The crucible plot and all the character stupidity that comes with it (all that dialogue about how we can never beat them conventionally - why? - because) stays.
It fixes Shepard and to some degree the problem with the created/creator issue - by allowing to dismiss starchild's claims.

As for using the crucible, people have come up with ideas to use the crucible in some other way to weaken the reapers, thus making it integral to this new ending. There's a whole link collection on the first page.
Would that be acceptable?

Modifié par a.m.p, 17 avril 2012 - 05:02 .

[Byronic-Knight]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

If they spend the whole game telling you 'you can't beat the Reapers conventionally', and then you end up beating them conventionally, isn't that pretty stupid? In the very least you'll have to pull an Independence Day, and upload some kinetic barrier removing virus onto Harbinger or some other non-sense. And since the game had made it pretty clear that the crucible was the real solution another solution that comes in at the last minute and saves the day would unequivocally be a deus ex machina.

 

It would be just about as stupid as introducing a character in the last scene that then presents you with an entirely new conflict---no longer coerced assimilation and homogeneity vs. self-determination and diversity, nor even a more simplified Reapers vs. all life in the galaxy, but instead synthetics vs. organics (which is bunk from the moment it's uttered considering you can have your pilot romanitically involve himself with an AI and can have the Geth and Quarians make peace). 

It would be just about as stupid as also introducing a machine that can somehow rewrite the genetic makup of everything in the galaxy on a molecular level by having someone leap into a beam of light. 

It would be just about as stupid as putting all one's hope in a device that has been incrementally designed over the span of several mellenia, by individuals who never interacted directly, the ultimate function of which is unknown---it is only presumed to be a weapon---and the manner for activating it is a complete and utter mystery, the plans for which were just discovered in a Prothean archive on Mars, which itself had been discovered nearly forty years prior and was responsible for humanity achieving FTL travel. 

The current ending is a mountain of stupidity. To be perfectly honest, it would have made more sense if the Crucible didn't work at all or it was revealed to be a ruse by the Reapers themselves, at which point you pick whether you want to roll the dice and see whether you're dealing with the gods the heretics believed them to be or if they are formidable but mortal constructs of metal and wires; or if you want to cower in a corner, surrender to their awesome power---which wouldn't be diminished considering all of the havoc you watch them wreak across the galaxy over the course of the game---and accept your future fate as grey paste or a husk. 

And also, the Crucible could just as well have been a means for weakening the Reapers---giving them "colds" in keeping with your ID4 reference---and not a method for destroying them outright. 

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 18 avril 2012 - 07:43 .

[Zolt51]

That just nonsense. If conventional victory was ever possible against the Reapers, then nothing you did in ME3 makes any sense. In fact, none of the 3 games make any sense.

So you have what, 8,000 EMS? Guess what, the reapers have at least 800,000. All your high EMS can hope to achieve is to build a fully functional crucible and protect it for the time it takes to dock with the Citadel, all the while taking pretty hideous losses. The whole fleet is basically a shield for the Crucible. Things are *that* desperate.

Change or redefine the ending options and scene, that at least I can understand, if it is very, very well done. But this? Please....

Modifié par Zolt51, 18 avril 2012 - 07:56 .