913 réponses à ce sujet

[Numara]

I would like an ending that depends of all things I did since ME1, rather than 3 colours, I need a renegade option to overload the starnosensechild and fight back the reapers with all the war assets, because, why i spent XXXX hours and reunite all that army if im just going to use the crucible to blow it all.... for me the crucible its the last reapers trick... they are scared, they now all galaxy united can defeat em, its annoying how shepars just goes all nice whit those child "explanations"... im srry i just cant reconize Shepard the last 10 min, for me she/he died at the beam... still better ending that all these nosenses

[The Angry One]

Why is the only acceptable outcome a total loss?
The Reapers have been using the same tactics for billions of years before now, they're simply not used to a large conventional war. They can't replace their losses. They are not invincible.

Since when was Mass Effect about defeatism? This is like claiming it's unrealistic to pull a total victory after Sovereign connected itself to the Citadel. Except that's what happened.

[a.m.p]

fchopin wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

What about you? How high must be the price of conventional victory for you to not be an easy way out that undermines existing options?

It's a very important question. If it can be answered in a way that satisfies most people, then the compromise is possible.

The only way this would be acceptable is for Earth to be completely destroyed as well as most of the fleet and a few reapers then the rest of the reapers retreat to some other place for the next fight.
 
Then the game ends and the war continues for a few years until there is nothing left apart for some new race which is developing technologically and will probably take over the galaxy because there would be few races with the technology to stop them.

Okay, that's not really a conventional victory, that's defeat.
My definition of victory in this situation is: "as long as enough people of all species survive to not die out or
regress into the stone age and the relay network stays, allowing to
effectively rebuild the galactic society". (Earth being completely destroyed is an acceptable loss too, for me).

Does that mean then that this idea of a victory is completely unacceptable for you no matter the cost? (Even if I toss Garrus out the airlock?)

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Why is the only acceptable outcome a total loss?
The Reapers have been using the same tactics for billions of years before now, they're simply not used to a large conventional war. They can't replace their losses. They are not invincible.

Since when was Mass Effect about defeatism? This is like claiming it's unrealistic to pull a total victory after Sovereign connected itself to the Citadel. Except that's what happened.

Actually it's the other way around, the Reapers can replace their numbers. Even better, they can now turn off all the Relays with the Citadel.

[fchopin]

The Angry One wrote...

Why is the only acceptable outcome a total loss?
The Reapers have been using the same tactics for billions of years before now, they're simply not used to a large conventional war. They can't replace their losses. They are not invincible.

Since when was Mass Effect about defeatism? This is like claiming it's unrealistic to pull a total victory after Sovereign connected itself to the Citadel. Except that's what happened.

Because they did not do their homework and prepare, if they did prepare after ME1 and they tried to discover what the reapers were and what weaknesses they had there would have been a reasonable chance to make a fight of it but Bioware chose to ignore all that so we need a miracle to win now.
 
Blame Bioware and ME2.

[The Angry One]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Actually it's the other way around, the Reapers can replace their numbers.

1 Sovereign + 10 or so Destroyers per 50,000 years will do nothing for the current war.

Even better, they can now turn off all the Relays with the Citadel.

You mean like they did to prevent the fleet from reaching Sol? Wait..

[The Angry One]

fchopin wrote...

Because they did not do their homework and prepare, if they did prepare after ME1 and they tried to discover what the reapers were and what weaknesses they had there would have been a reasonable chance to make a fight of it but Bioware chose to ignore all that so we need a miracle to win now.
 
Blame Bioware and ME2.

They have thanix cannons, a large fleet and effective tactics.
The only advantage Reapers have is numbers (which are mostly made up of Destroyers) and their barriers (which don't protect as well against thanix cannons). Reaper armour is terrible, (ONE torpedo can hull a Sovereign) and their tactics are awful.

Modifié par The Angry One, 20 avril 2012 - 11:27 .

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Why is the only acceptable outcome a total loss?
The Reapers have been using the same tactics for billions of years before now, they're simply not used to a large conventional war. They can't replace their losses. They are not invincible.

Since when was Mass Effect about defeatism? This is like claiming it's unrealistic to pull a total victory after Sovereign connected itself to the Citadel. Except that's what happened.

Actually it's the other way around, the Reapers can replace their numbers. Even better, they can now turn off all the Relays with the Citadel.

1) Proof, please. We never learn anything about reaper-making facilities even on Earth. The intelligence reports state that people are processed and then the goo is stored in the processor ship's tanks: "The victims are ushered into locking pods, then rent apart and dissolved into paste that is flushed to storage vats.
"

2)Then why didn't they do that before the whole fleet arrived at Earth? Aren't they supposed to preserve themselves as everything that remained from prior civilizations stored in reaper form?

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Actually it's the other way around, the Reapers can replace their numbers.

1 Sovereign + 10 or so Destroyers per 50,000 years will do nothing for the current war.

Even better, they can now turn off all the Relays with the Citadel.

You mean like they did to prevent the fleet from reaching Sol? Wait..

I love those numbers you pulled out of the air, and lets hope the Citadel stays closed and no one uses a control panel to open its indestructable arms.

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Actually it's the other way around, the Reapers can replace their numbers.

1 Sovereign + 10 or so Destroyers per 50,000 years will do nothing for the current war.

Even better, they can now turn off all the Relays with the Citadel.

You mean like they did to prevent the fleet from reaching Sol? Wait..

I love those numbers you pulled out of the air, and lets hope the Citadel stays closed and no one uses a control panel to open its indestructable arms.

Okay, I got a better one. If they are this powerful. And they can lock down the network if they manage to open the citadel, why didn't they go straight for the citadel to begin with instead of stomping on Earth?

Modifié par a.m.p, 20 avril 2012 - 11:31 .

[fchopin]

The Angry One wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Because they did not do their homework and prepare, if they did prepare after ME1 and they tried to discover what the reapers were and what weaknesses they had there would have been a reasonable chance to make a fight of it but Bioware chose to ignore all that so we need a miracle to win now.
 
Blame Bioware and ME2.

They have thanix cannons, a large fleet and effective tactics.
The only advantage Reapers have is numbers (which are mostly made up of Destroyers) and their barriers (which don't protect as well against thanix cannons). Reaper armour is terrible, (ONE torpedo can hull a Sovereign) and their tactics are awful.

If the reapers were as weak as you say they would have been taken out millions of years ago by races much more advanced than ours.

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Okay, I got a better one. If they are this powerful. And they can lock down the network if they manage to open the citadel, why didn't they go straight for the citadel to begin with instead of stomping on Earth?

The same reason we see the Citadel closed at the end. They need to get past it's indestructable arms.

[omikron199]

a.m.p wrote...

In-character, (oh boy, we do need that picture after all), I have no reason to believe that shooting the tube/jumping into light/grabbing joysticks will stop the cycle. The idiot who started the cycle told me it would. And I trust him... why? I don't know what the crucible does. How do I know it won't instead destroy all technology except the reapers?

Good take on why reaper numbers can not be approximated with the info we have is here. Short version - everything you list is in-universe our our as players speculation. Math based on assumptions and baseless speculations does not give approximations.

As for the rannoch reaper, I'll repost my post from my other thread in a moment.

1. Have you seen this ending vid? Shooting the tube killed reapers. But bioware decided not to technically explain how did it happen. But it did.

2. The crucible distributes uncomprehendable amount of power, it was told to you during me3. Yet again bioware decided not to technically explain this to us. But Crucible works for sure.


3. Again if you had enough war assets you saw that organics have no impact with crucible's energy blast

4 the Rannoch reaper I can agree, not hte whole fleet fired, but all fleet was synchronised.

BUT

About the quantity of reapers -
I think several thousands hit the earth. Even in the beginning of me 3 we do see several capital ships and destroyers within 1 city. So there must the very large amount of them across the galaxy, as you can see from before London mission. their numbers are far superior than any other military force in the galaxy, even all united.





1.32 - London 5 capital ships between 10-20 blocks and its only 1 city on 1 planet.
1.36 - couple of hundreads reaper ships

We know that this happens in every major city on Earth  so lets think. There's around 200 countries now, and many of them have large cities like London just imagine how many capital ships landed on earth. How many big cities is there in USA? Europe? Asia? Latin America? Far East? Middle East?

I think there is more than 5000 capital ships just on Earth.

Next stop - Palaven, next - Thessia, next - every system you can see in the end of the game in galaxy map.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NskPisr26EQ&feature=related

1.23 - couple of thousands of reaper ships before even arriving to the sol system.

So basically there's probably far more than 20000 capital ships.


You cant beat that with the pathetic tiny amount of fleet you have gathered during the me3.

Also you ignored the logic part of crucible choices.

1 sacriface against millions.

The obvious choice is that 1 is better or you don't agree with it and want to kill trillions of lives just for your selfish disapproval of the crucible?

Modifié par omikron199, 20 avril 2012 - 11:56 .

[Noelemahc]

I love those numbers you pulled out of the air, and lets hope the Citadel stays closed and no one uses a control panel to open its indestructable arms.

Well, yours aren't any better, I'm afraid. We do not know of any other existing Reaper production facilities other than the Citadel. And its opening or closing is irrelephant since it is not a weapon itself, and if the Reapers can be overpowered as-is, it won't matter. And-- oh wait, in order to dock the Crucible, someone just opened its indestructible arms! Omigosh, how did that happen?

In fact...
I would totally buy ME4 if it would be about finding and blowingupizing Reaper incubators scattered around the galacksee.

If the reapers were as weak as you say they would have been taken out
millions of years ago by races much more advanced than ours.

It's stated multiple times that ours is the first cycle to actually get as far as uniting ALL the races and building the Crucible and actually DOCKING it to the Citadel, which is apparently hella hard. The fact that ours is the first cycle that has apparently forced the Citadel to leave the Widow nebula helped a lot, of course, and is also indicative that HUMANITY IS SUPERIOR. Har har.

omikron199 wrote...
1. Have you seen this ending vid? Shooting the tube killed reapers. But bioware decided not to technically explain how did it happen. But it did.
2. The crucible distributes uncomprehendable amount of power, it was told to you during me3. Yet again bioware decided not to technically explain this to us. But Crucible works for sure.
3. Again if you had enough war assets you saw that organics have no impact with crucible's energy blast

a.m.p. specifically said "in-character". Shepard has no reason to believe anything the Starchild says, or act on it.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 20 avril 2012 - 11:37 .

[The Angry One]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I love those numbers you pulled out of the air,

I'm sorry, did you not pay attention to the damn plot or the codex?
They pick one species per cycle as worthy of "ascension" to a Sovereign class Reaper.
The others are used to make destroyers.

In fact I'm being generous with Destroyers. How many space faring races are there suitable for Destroyers? Asari, Salarians, Batarians, Volus, Hanar, Turians?
Maybe Elcor? Vorcha? Quarians are already declared unsuitable, Drell have too low a population.. what else is there?

Not to mention the time it takes to construct a Reaper. They can't replace them.

and lets hope the Citadel stays closed and no one uses a control panel to open its indestructable arms.

And let's open a teleporter directly to the Presidium tower and leave it out in the open.
Nothing can go wrong with this plan.

[The Angry One]

fchopin wrote..

If the reapers were as weak as you say they would have been taken out millions of years ago by races much more advanced than ours.

No, because their leadership and logistics are immediately cut off when the Reapers take the Citadel.
Even if they have time to develop thanix cannons and the like, the Reapers start with a massive advantage.

[Vigil_N7]

It was pretty much said time and time again that the Reapers could not be defeated conventionally in-game.

Anyone who states that they can is basing it on speculation and speculation alone, that can not be backed up by in-game evidence or evidence from the mass effect lore.

Besides, take a look at the galaxy map before priority earth, notice how there are reapers in EVERY star cluster?

Sure, the bulk of the reaper fleet is probably with the citadel, but we have no idea just how many reapers are elsewhere in the galaxy.

[fchopin]

a.m.p wrote...

Does that mean then that this idea of a victory is completely unacceptable for you no matter the cost? (Even if I toss Garrus out the airlock?)

I would love for us to win conventionally but can see no way for this to happen if the reapers are what i understood of them in mass effect unless Bioware changes the game with different rules.
 
Sorry but that is how i see the game but would be very happy if Bioware can do this with a good explanation if it is possible.

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Okay, I got a better one. If they are this powerful. And they can lock down the network if they manage to open the citadel, why didn't they go straight for the citadel to begin with instead of stomping on Earth?

The same reason we see the Citadel closed at the end. They need to get past it's indestructable arms.

So? They can't ever do that unless it's personally Shepard that opens the arms? It's not like there's a bunch of indoctrinated people running around the galaxy. Send them to the citadel as refugees, take the citadel, have them open the arms, lock down relays, go reap at your leisure.

[The Angry One]

Vigil_N7 wrote...

It was pretty much said time and time again that the Reapers could not be defeated conventionally in-game.

Neither could Sovereign.
Neither could the Collectors.

Anyone who states that they can is basing it on speculation and speculation alone, that can not be backed up by in-game evidence or evidence from the mass effect lore.

Besides, take a look at the galaxy map before priority earth, notice how there are reapers in EVERY star cluster?

Sure, the bulk of the reaper fleet is probably with the citadel, but we have no idea just how many reapers are elsewhere in the galaxy.

The galaxy map indicates Reaper presence. It does not say how many Reapers are there.
The Reaper leadership, Harbinger and the Catalyst are at Sol. Destroying them may put a huge dent in the Reaper's ability to wage war.

[a.m.p]

fchopin wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Does that mean then that this idea of a victory is completely unacceptable for you no matter the cost? (Even if I toss Garrus out the airlock?)

I would love for us to win conventionally but can see no way for this to happen if the reapers are what i understood of them in mass effect unless Bioware changes the game with different rules.
 
Sorry but that is how i see the game but would be very happy if Bioware can do this with a good explanation if it is possible.

Fair enough. You might be interested in reading some examples on the first page that people came up with - to weaken the reapers by using the crucible in non-standard ways. Even the odds a bit, then beat them with the fleet.

[b2smooth]

The Angry One wrote...

Vigil_N7 wrote...

It was pretty much said time and time again that the Reapers could not be defeated conventionally in-game.

Neither could Sovereign.
Neither could the Collectors.

Anyone who states that they can is basing it on speculation and speculation alone, that can not be backed up by in-game evidence or evidence from the mass effect lore.

Besides, take a look at the galaxy map before priority earth, notice how there are reapers in EVERY star cluster?

Sure, the bulk of the reaper fleet is probably with the citadel, but we have no idea just how many reapers are elsewhere in the galaxy.

The galaxy map indicates Reaper presence. It does not say how many Reapers are there.
The Reaper leadership, Harbinger and the Catalyst are at Sol. Destroying them may put a huge dent in the Reaper's ability to wage war.

Cut off the head...

[Noelemahc]

The Angry One wrote...

Vigil_N7 wrote...

It was pretty much said time and time again that the Reapers could not be defeated conventionally in-game.

Neither could Sovereign.
Neither could the Collectors.

Good point.
"The Collectors killed you once. It only pissed you off."

Garrus's speechifying on how Shepard overcomes more and more ludicrously insurmountable odds comes to mind easily.

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I love those numbers you pulled out of the air,

I'm sorry, did you not pay attention to the damn plot or the codex?
They pick one species per cycle as worthy of "ascension" to a Sovereign class Reaper.
The others are used to make destroyers.

Nice lets work off those numbers:

Assuming each cycle produces a maximum of 1 Sovereign class and 3 destroyer class (this limit is arbitrarily placed), there may be upwards of 20,000 Sovereign class Reapers and 60,000 destroyers.

Of course, if each cycle produces more than one Sovereign, then that number could balloon even more. Basically there are enough Reapers to "darken the sky of every world".

We know the Reapers are at least 1 billion years old, and we know it takes tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands, but was it really hundreds of thousands of humans that went missing during ME2? That seems a bit high) to make about half of a Sovereign class Reaper. So lets be generous and bump it up to 20 million to make a full Reaper, because hey why not. That means harvesting 11 billion Humans on Earth would make 550 Sovereign class Reapers.

Lets say each cycle only managed to harvest 1 billion individuals, that means each cycle would produce 50 Sovereign class Reapers, that would mean there's 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers.

We also know that the Destroyers "in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet", and we know they use the other races to make and they're smaller,  so lets just times them by 3. That's 150 billion Destroyers. The amount made from the entire Prothean empire would be massive, heck even a single Krogan female lays 1000 eggs a year, the amount of Destroyers you could make from the Krogan alone would be immense.

This doesn't count all the Oculus, which seem to outnumber even the Destroyers from the ending cutscene.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 20 avril 2012 - 11:49 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

fchopin wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Does that mean then that this idea of a victory is completely unacceptable for you no matter the cost? (Even if I toss Garrus out the airlock?)

I would love for us to win conventionally but can see no way for this to happen if the reapers are what i understood of them in mass effect unless Bioware changes the game with different rules.
 
Sorry but that is how i see the game but would be very happy if Bioware can do this with a good explanation if it is possible.

BW already changed the rules 10 minutes before the ending. To me that's exactly the problem.