913 réponses à ce sujet

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

a.m.p. specifically said "in-character". Shepard has no reason to believe anything the Starchild says, or act on it.

Looks like I do need this picturised.

omikron199 wrote...
2. The crucible distributes uncomprehendable amount of power, it was told to you during me3. Yet again bioware decided not to technically explain this to us. But Crucible works for sure.

Until I have a nerdy in-universe science team explain to my Shepard in what way the crucible distributes uncomprehendable amounts of power and why that will stop the reapers, she has no reason to believe it will. As of now she only knows that it's something very powerful and extremely suspicious. And the chief reaper wants her to jump into a beam of light. She doesn't have the luxury of alt-tabing and going to youtube to see what that would do.

[fchopin]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

fchopin wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Does that mean then that this idea of a victory is completely unacceptable for you no matter the cost? (Even if I toss Garrus out the airlock?)

I would love for us to win conventionally but can see no way for this to happen if the reapers are what i understood of them in mass effect unless Bioware changes the game with different rules.
 
Sorry but that is how i see the game but would be very happy if Bioware can do this with a good explanation if it is possible.

BW already changed the rules 10 minutes before the ending. To me that's exactly the problem.

How did they change the rules in the last 10 minutes?

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Until I have a nerdy in-universe science team explain to my Shepard in what way the crucible distributes uncomprehendable amounts of power and why that will stop the reapers, she has no reason to believe it will. As of now she only knows that it's something very powerful and extremely suspicious. And the chief reaper wants her to jump into a beam of light. She doesn't have the luxury of alt-tabing and going to youtube to see what that would do.

So that means she either A) does something in the hope it saves the galaxy or does nothing and dooms the galaxy.

[b2smooth]

Given that from everything we have heard the Protheans were more advanced than any current species. And the fact that they lost the Citadel immediately, and still managed to fight the Reapers for over 1,000 years only to eventually loose tells me that the Galaxy is doomed to fail. It has been a very short period from the time the Reapers arrived and yet they are already on the brink of victory. Given these fact I would still love to tell Casper to shove his choices up his ass and fight to the last breath of the last living being. An honorable defeat is much better than the bs we were given.

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Until I have a nerdy in-universe science team explain to my Shepard in what way the crucible distributes uncomprehendable amounts of power and why that will stop the reapers, she has no reason to believe it will. As of now she only knows that it's something very powerful and extremely suspicious. And the chief reaper wants her to jump into a beam of light. She doesn't have the luxury of alt-tabing and going to youtube to see what that would do.

So that means she either A) does something in the hope it saves the galaxy or does nothing and dooms the galaxy.

or:
A) does what her enemy wants her to do, without knowing what she is doing and probably without a chance to see what effect that had
puts her trust into the forces she's been gathering for this very purpose for the last three years, and if that fails, because she's not a prophet and doesn't know how the war would go - into the next cycle.

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So that means she either A) does something in the hope it saves the galaxy or does nothing and dooms the galaxy.

or:
A) does what her enemy wants her to do, without knowing what she is doing and probably without a chance to see what effect that had
puts her trust into the forces she's been gathering for this very purpose for the last three years, and if that fails, because she's not a prophet and doesn't know how the war would go - into the next cycle.

The forces she gathered can't win, check out the post I made on the previous page, and if this cycle fails the future ones are doomed.

[a.m.p]

b2smooth wrote...

Given that from everything we have heard the Protheans were more advanced than any current species. And the fact that they lost the Citadel immediately, and still managed to fight the Reapers for over 1,000 years only to eventually loose tells me that the Galaxy is doomed to fail. It has been a very short period from the time the Reapers arrived and yet they are already on the brink of victory. Given these fact I would still love to tell Casper to shove his choices up his ass and fight to the last breath of the last living being. An honorable defeat is much better than the bs we were given.

It doesn’t matter how good your guns are. If
you are stuck somewhere where the enemy can bring infinite
reinforcements in and you can’t, you’re dead. If you manage to hold out
for decades/centuries regardless, it means either the enemy is not nearly as
strong as we’re told, or that there aren’t that many of them.

As for the citadel - they lost it because the trap worked. The trap that in our cycle was disabled.

[The Angry One]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I love those numbers you pulled out of the air,

I'm sorry, did you not pay attention to the damn plot or the codex?
They pick one species per cycle as worthy of "ascension" to a Sovereign class Reaper.
The others are used to make destroyers.

Nice lets work off those numbers:

Assuming each cycle produces a maximum of 1 Sovereign class and 3 destroyer class (this limit is arbitrarily placed), there may be upwards of 20,000 Sovereign class Reapers and 60,000 destroyers.

Of course, if each cycle produces more than one Sovereign, then that number could balloon even more. Basically there are enough Reapers to "darken the sky of every world".

Which we don't see.
Moreover, you know the Prothean cycle? ZERO Sovereigns produced.

So we get to factor in "dud" cycles too.

We know the Reapers are at least 1 billion years old, and we know it takes tens of thousands (possibly hundreds of thousands, but was it really hundreds of thousands of humans that went missing during ME2? That seems a bit high) to make about half of a Sovereign class Reaper. So lets be generous and bump it up to 20 million to make a full Reaper, because hey why not. That means harvesting 11 billion Humans on Earth would make 550 Sovereign class Reapers.

Excuse me? That was not half of a Sovereign class Reaper. That was half of an embryo for a Sovereign class Reaper.

Lets say each cycle only managed to harvest 1 billion individuals, that means each cycle would produce 50 Sovereign class Reapers, that would mean there's 50 billion Sovereign class Reapers.

It is always said that 1 Reaper = 1 species. There are not multiple Reapers of the same species.

We also know that the Destroyers "in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet", and we know they use the other races to make and they're smaller,  so lets just times them by 3. That's 150 billion Destroyers. The amount made from the entire Prothean empire would be massive, heck even a single Krogan female lays 1000 eggs a year, the amount of Destroyers you could make from the Krogan alone would be immense.

This doesn't count all the Oculus, which seem to outnumber even the Destroyers from the ending cutscene.

Sure if we make numbers up and assume things that have never been said.
You're also forgetting the millions that are processed into minions, and the millions more that are flat out killed. Low population cities on Earth for example are just bombed out of existence.

[AngryFrozenWater]

fchopin wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

fchopin wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Does that mean then that this idea of a victory is completely unacceptable for you no matter the cost? (Even if I toss Garrus out the airlock?)

I would love for us to win conventionally but can see no way for this to happen if the reapers are what i understood of them in mass effect unless Bioware changes the game with different rules.
 
Sorry but that is how i see the game but would be very happy if Bioware can do this with a good explanation if it is possible.

BW already changed the rules 10 minutes before the ending. To me that's exactly the problem.

How did they change the rules in the last 10 minutes?

The rules changed because everything up until then became unimportant. No mattter what you have achieved it all boils down to 3 choices which are supposed to be solutions to a (for my Shepards) non-existent problem. Control means the reapers get away with it and you will be satisfied by playing an undead reaper dictaror which leaves the "fail safe mechanism" (pun intended) intact - just in case. Synthesis means that diversity, free will and the right of self-determination have been flushed and you spread love to organics and synthetics who already got togther to face the reapers. Destruction means another genocide - this time the geth.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 20 avril 2012 - 12:06 .

[omikron199]

a.m.p wrote...

Okay, I got a better one. If they are this powerful. And they can lock down the network if they manage to open the citadel, why didn't they go straight for the citadel to begin with instead of stomping on Earth?

If you saw the galaxy map you may have seen that earth and batarian space are very close to each other and the citadel is on another end of the galaxy.

Since the citadel was locked down 3 years before that and Sovereign got killed so  the Reapers used "backup" plan to hit the Alpha relay in batarian space.

Alpha relay got destroyed too.  So the reapers decide to "go on foot" and start their journey from the batarian space.
Which is close to Earth. And sol relay.

[The Angry One]

omikron199 wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Okay, I got a better one. If they are this powerful. And they can lock down the network if they manage to open the citadel, why didn't they go straight for the citadel to begin with instead of stomping on Earth?

If you saw the galaxy map you may have seen that earth and batarian space are very close to each other and the citadel is on another end of the galaxy.

Since the citadel was locked down 3 years before that and Sovereign got killed so  the Reapers used "backup" plan to hit the Alpha relay in batarian space.

Alpha relay got destroyed too.  So the reapers decide to "go on foot" and start their journey from the batarian space.
Which is close to Earth. And sol relay.

They can't relay hop to the Citadel because?
Let me remind you that they go to Earth, Palaven and Thessia, all relatively close to the Citadel and don't go to the Citadel until TIM tells them to.
Hell, Thessia is right next door to the Citadel.

[fchopin]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Destruction means another genocide - this time the geth.

Destruction does not have to mean the Geth will die, we will have to wait for EC to find out but i am sure some will survive.


Edit: Everything we did in the game and what we accumulated will be the result of what kind of ending we get, i think this is why people are having problems with the endings as most of them seem similar, hopefully Bioware will fix the problem.

Modifié par fchopin, 20 avril 2012 - 12:15 .

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...



The forces she gathered can't win, check out the post I made on the previous page,

Checked.
You start with the word "Assuming". Everything you list are either in-game speculations by characters (example: the age of the Leviathan was originally put at a billion years, but before any more studies could be done to confirm or refute that, it disappeared and the guys that got to look at it were the batarians. And we can't really ask them what they found out.)
Or speculations by you.
We have solid info on two cycles. We know that the last cycle they failed to produce a sov-class from the dominating race.
We know that someone had tech good enought to one-hit at least one reaper. That's it.
With that set of data you can claim that there are 100000 sov-class reapers or that there are 100. Neither number has solid proof under it, or solid proof against it.

and if this cycle fails the future ones are doomed.

Why? We know that the only not dumb person in the game, Liara, came up with a plan B involving passing on the warning. If the war fails and everyone is killed, how about we plan our own Ilos  - for some people to wait it out (we have some pretty long-lived species + we have cryo) and repeat the prothean sabotage for the next cycle. Except tell them not to build the stupid crucible and build ships instead.

Modifié par a.m.p, 20 avril 2012 - 12:14 .

[Clayless]

The Angry One wrote...

Which we don't see.
Moreover, you know the Prothean cycle? ZERO Sovereigns produced.

So we get to factor in "dud" cycles too.

I did if you read. That cycle would've produced a **** ton of Destroyers.

Excuse me? That was not half of a Sovereign class Reaper. That was half of an embryo for a Sovereign class Reaper.

Righty oh. Looking at the Human-Reaper and going off the numbers from ME2, how much more humans would you say it takes to get from the HR to a Sovereign Reaper? 20 times the amount? 50 times? 100 times?

It is always said that 1 Reaper = 1 species. There are not multiple Reapers of the same species.

Source?

Sure if we make numbers up and assume things that have never been said.
You're also forgetting the millions that are processed into minions, and the millions more that are flat out killed. Low population cities on Earth for example are just bombed out of existence.

Source for the low population city part? From what I remember Anderson said low population cities weren't currently getting targeted, and the leaders of Earth were getting rounded up for indoctrination, the majority of Earth were being captured it was only the industrail centers and militaries that were being destroyed. Taking into consideration the millions of casulties is something I did actually do, which is why (assuming there are 13 billion humans) I only considered 7.69% of the entire human population for my sums.

[b2smooth]

Is there any explanation of why the human Reaper looks like a human but all of the other Reapers look the same? This is a question I have had since ME2. When I found the human Reaper I thought it looked like something a Terminator fan came up with.

[omikron199]

The Angry One wrote...

They can't relay hop to the Citadel because?
Let me remind you that they go to Earth, Palaven and Thessia, all relatively close to the Citadel and don't go to the Citadel until TIM tells them to.
Hell, Thessia is right next door to the Citadel.

Because it was locked down after Sovereign's attack. It was mentioned in me1 or 2. That mass relay functions of the citadel were secured for that not happens again.

Also all the defenders of conventional means please answer this

http://social.biowar...594/23#11560373

I'm especially intrested in reaper quantity.

Modifié par omikron199, 20 avril 2012 - 12:16 .

[Elyiia]

If they had prepared from when Sovereign first appeared, we could win. Probably easily.
If they had prepared from when we destroyed the Collector base, we'd probably have an even better chance. (Ambushing them as they entered the galaxy with their shields still down from "travel" mode.

To win a conventional victory now, it would be hard but we have the technology to do it, we have access to their intell. But it would have to have been before we lost the Citadel. Otherwise we NEED to win the fight over Earth to take it back.

They should have just kept the damn Citadel arms shut.

However, issues arise because there are SO MANY inconsistencies in the Codex. Hell, we're told using FTL ships as projectiles is impossible due to the safety mech but we have examples of it happening.

What probably happened is Sovvy was too strong in ME1 so they gave us thanix canons, then thanix canons would have made the Reapers too weak so they were retconned in ME3.

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Why? We know that the only not dumb person in the game, Liara, came up with a plan B involving passing on the warning. If the war fails and everyone is killed, how about we plan our own Ilos  - for some people to wait it out (we have some pretty long-lived species + we have cryo) and repeat the prothean sabotage for the next cycle. Except tell them not to build the stupid crucible and build ships instead.

Yeah lets just hope the other 20,000 cycles never thought of that and the Reapers don't learn from their mistakes.

[Noelemahc]

How did they change the rules in the last 10 minutes?

By introducing the much-maligned "Reaper Off Switch" in place of "Instant Win Aperture-Science-We-Don't-Know-What-It-Does Device" There's an old Soviet joke about that, actually.

"American spies steal Soviet plans for a prototype super-tank. However, when assembled to spec, the plans produce a choo-choo train. They re-translate the plans and build it again. And get the train again. Frustrated, they call up all Soviet defectors they can find, in hopes that a Russian mind can understand what an American cannot.
"Look!" says one of the consultants, "It very clearly says - "after assembly, use file to remove excess metal!""

Given that from everything we have heard the Protheans were more advanced than any current species. And the fact that they lost the Citadel immediately, and still managed to fight the Reapers for over 1,000 years only to eventually loose tells me that the Galaxy is doomed to fail.

Better yet, the Protheans fought at a disadvantage because until the introduction of the Beam Rifles, they relied in the same war doctrine, and pressed it onto ALL of their subservient races, which made it easier for the Reapers to adapt and reap them. An uphill war that they lost only after a millenium. Wow. One that involved the Collectors, a far more advanced servant of the Reapers than mere shock troops, that they no longer possess, thanks to Sheppy Shep.

Destruction does not have to mean the Geth will die, we will have to wait for EC to find out but i am sure some will survive.

Going on the information we have now, even the Shepard VI that Mouse made will die. And that makes me a sad panda.

Is there any explanation of why the human Reaper looks like a human but
all of the other Reapers look the same? This is a question I have had
since ME2. When I found the human Reaper I thought it looked like
something a Terminator fan came up with.

There was a semi-official handwave that that's what will get packed INTO the cuttlefishlike hull, a representation of the constituent race.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 20 avril 2012 - 12:26 .

[a.m.p]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Why? We know that the only not dumb person in the game, Liara, came up with a plan B involving passing on the warning. If the war fails and everyone is killed, how about we plan our own Ilos  - for some people to wait it out (we have some pretty long-lived species + we have cryo) and repeat the prothean sabotage for the next cycle. Except tell them not to build the stupid crucible and build ships instead.

Yeah lets just hope the other 20,000 cycles never thought of that and the Reapers don't learn from their mistakes.

Well, the other 20000 cycles managed to pass the crucible on for a billion years, right? And some of them tried to build it? And it's plans still ended up in our backyard.
So I don't know about the whole learning from mistakes thing. I sure killed Harninger a lot in ME2 but he just kept coming at me and telling me this is true power.
After the reapers are turned into the starchild's playthings that managed to fail at everything they do except maybe massive killing, it's a bit late to paint them omnipotent and all-powerful space gods that can not be tricked.

[The Angry One]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

I did if you read. That cycle would've produced a **** ton of Destroyers.

Destroyers suck. One cruiser can kill them.

Righty oh. Looking at the Human-Reaper and going off the numbers from ME2, how much more humans would you say it takes to get from the HR to a Sovereign Reaper? 20 times the amount? 50 times? 100 times?

We don't know, but considering 1 species = 1 Reaper, significantly more.

Source?

Codex: Reaper variants - capital ships
Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to create these massive ships.


Codex: Harvesting
Victims who cooperate, surrender, or are captured by husks are sorted into camps. It is believed the husks possess receptors that allow them to analyze a victim's DNA through sight, smell, or touch. Victims that meet their standards are herded from the camps into processor ships. Those the husks deem insufficient are either turned into husks themselves or indoctrinated to serve as slave labor. The Reapers use this last option to give their victims false hope -- many captives who would otherwise fight back become docile when they see members of their own kind obey and survive.


The Reapers have high standards for who they turn into Reaper goo. The entire population is simply not used for that.

Source for the low population city part? From what I remember Anderson said low population cities weren't currently getting targeted, and the leaders of Earth were getting rounded up for indoctrination, the majority of Earth were being captured it was only the industrail centers and militaries that were being destroyed. Taking into consideration the millions of casulties is something I did actually do, which is why (assuming there are 13 billion humans) I only considered 7.69% of the entire human population for my sums.

Codex: Fall of Earth
The capital ships bombarded defense installations and industrial centers, annihilating entire cities with populations in the low millions, including Adelaide, Hamburg, Al Jubail, and Fort Worth.

Modifié par The Angry One, 20 avril 2012 - 12:25 .

[b2smooth]

Elyiia wrote...

If they had prepared from when Sovereign first appeared, we could win. Probably easily.
If they had prepared from when we destroyed the Collector base, we'd probably have an even better chance. (Ambushing them as they entered the galaxy with their shields still down from "travel" mode.

To win a conventional victory now, it would be hard but we have the technology to do it, we have access to their intell. But it would have to have been before we lost the Citadel. Otherwise we NEED to win the fight over Earth to take it back.

They should have just kept the damn Citadel arms shut.

However, issues arise because there are SO MANY inconsistencies in the Codex. Hell, we're told using FTL ships as projectiles is impossible due to the safety mech but we have examples of it happening.

What probably happened is Sovvy was too strong in ME1 so they gave us thanix canons, then thanix canons would have made the Reapers too weak so they were retconned in ME3.

We couldn't win conventionally as is stated over and over.  But guerilla warfare would give us a chance.  It is the tactic used when any smaller force tries to defeat a larger, more powerful one.  The problem you would encounter with these tactics is you couldn't really defend your homeworlds.  The Quarians and Geth would be perfect for this since the Quarians are used to living on ships and the Geth need no homeworld.  Just show up, ambush, get out. No long drawn out battles, no going home.  Try to hide your people on unsettled worlds out of the sights of the Reapers and onboard the ships.  You would still suffer massive losses to your general population but it would give you the best opportunity to win.

[Mixon]

It's sad, but more than month past from ME3 relise. Many angry players are gone now and more are cold now, like me. The terrible ending in past for me, Now I am just cold to a game and don't care of it at all. It's not interesting for me any more. Maybe "new" ending will fix it, but I don't think so... I don't think that BW will remake it like it must be, because simple "clarify" will be not enouth in this situation. Now I am just waiting for May 15...

[omikron199]

This please - answer this

http://social.biowar...594/23#11560373

Quantity is main question

Also "The protheans" were more spread through the galaxy and far more technically (not using keyboards!!!) and biologically(can read mind by touching) superior than any race in this cycle. But they died. It took several centuries to harvest them but they FAILED.

What makes you think that Shepard's alliance would succeed?

[Clayless]

a.m.p wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...


Yeah lets just hope the other 20,000 cycles never thought of that and the Reapers don't learn from their mistakes.

Well, the other 20000 cycles managed to pass the crucible on for a billion years, right? And some of them tried to build it? And it's plans still ended up in our backyard.
So I don't know about the whole learning from mistakes thing. I sure killed Harninger a lot in ME2 but he just kept coming at me and telling me this is true power.
After the reapers are turned into the starchild's playthings that managed to fail at everything they do except maybe massive killing, it's a bit late to paint them omnipotent and all-powerful space gods that can not be tricked.

There's a difference from tricking someone and doing the exact same thing that the cycle before you did and just hoping they fall for it a second time and haven't set up some precedures to stop people sabotaging the Keepers again.