913 réponses à ce sujet

[omikron199]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LMFAO, what?? You people are nuts.

It took the combined Citadel Fleets, DA, and two different Alliance fleets (iirc) to take down Sovereign. You seriously think Shepard's combined war assets are that times a thousand? Please get a reality check.

Oh, and half of your ground forces team was killed before they even touched the ground, in the best case scenario. THat figure can be as high as 75% in the worst case.

There is no frickin way for a conventional victory.

That's Exactly what I was trying to tell above

Modifié par omikron199, 20 avril 2012 - 04:00 .

[zarnk567]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LMFAO, what?? You people are nuts.

It took the combined Citadel Fleets, DA, and two different Alliance fleets (iirc) to take down Sovereign. You seriously think Shepard's combined war assets are that times a thousand? Please get a reality check.

Oh, and half of your ground forces team was killed before they even touched the ground, in the best case scenario. THat figure can be as high as 75% in the worst case.

There is no frickin way for a conventional victory.

............You do remember the heretic Geth fleet was there helping Sovreign right?............. They were responsible for the majority of casualties during that fight, not to mention we did not have Thanix cannons during that fight. Not saying conventional victory would be possible. But it would be a nice option considering we dont even get to see the majority of our Assets in action anyway.....

Modifié par zarnk567, 20 avril 2012 - 04:06 .

[a.m.p]

Numara wrote...

1 thing is bothering me... only in the RED choice we got Shepard to survive, even if star.nosense.child says it will kill him/her as the other 2 choices will do, so Why is he is Lying? I mean Why if the red option only affects Reapers tecnology? and child was lying in order to prevent Shep to use that choice telling him his geth friends EDI and himself/herslef will die too?

And why are his reapers attacking the crucible while he's trying to figure out a new solution? So he doesn't control them after all? So he lied that he does? Or did the crucible cut him off from them? A device designed by people who weren't aware of his existence? Right.

My favorite kind of plothole is a fractal plothole. It can't be plugged, no matter how many little parts of it you do plug. There are always more unanswerable questions and inconsistencies.

My do I not envy the person tasked with clarifying this (unless they are the same person who came up with that in the first place, in which case they totally deserve it).

[teh DRUMPf!!]

zarnk567 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LMFAO, what?? You people are nuts.

It took the combined Citadel Fleets, DA, and two different Alliance fleets (iirc) to take down Sovereign. You seriously think Shepard's combined war assets are that times a thousand? Please get a reality check.

Oh, and half of your ground forces team was killed before they even touched the ground, in the best case scenario. THat figure can be as high as 75% in the worst case.

There is no frickin way for a conventional victory.

............You do remember the heretic Geth fleet was there helping Sovreign right?............. They were responsible for the majority of casualties during that fight, not to mention we did not have Thanix cannons during that fight. Not saying conventional victory would be possible. But it would be a nice option considering we dont even get to see the majority of our Assets in action anyway.....

Now remember that the heretic geth have been replaced by legions of much stronger machines (more Reapers).

Thanix cannons are hardly a difference-maker when its carrier can be destroyed so easily by the enemy.

Conventional warfare will kill, like what, 10 Reapers? I'm being generous. And there are THOUSANDS of them.


And that was the whole point, conventional victory was never the plan. It was to get an armada to help transport the Crucible. If you told you allies "we'll all join together and beat them" they'd have laughed in your face. The possibility of the Crucible being the answer is the only reason they follow you.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 20 avril 2012 - 04:39 .

[a.m.p]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Now remember that the heretic geth have been replaced by legions of much stronger machines (more Reapers).

Thanix cannons are hardly a difference-maker when its carrier can be destroyed so easily by the enemy.

Conventional warfare will kill, like what, 10 Reapers? I'm being generous. And there are THOUSANDS of them.


And that was the whole point, conventional victory was never the plan. It was to get an armada to help transport the Crucible. If you told you allies "we'll all join together and beat them" they'd have laughed in your face. The possibility of the Crucible being the answer is the only reason they follow you.

I have to ask. Did the first two games (let's forget about the third for a moment) give you the impression that the reapers would be defeated through a magical mcguffin device?

[zarnk567]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

zarnk567 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LMFAO, what?? You people are nuts.

It took the combined Citadel Fleets, DA, and two different Alliance fleets (iirc) to take down Sovereign. You seriously think Shepard's combined war assets are that times a thousand? Please get a reality check.

Oh, and half of your ground forces team was killed before they even touched the ground, in the best case scenario. THat figure can be as high as 75% in the worst case.

There is no frickin way for a conventional victory.

............You do remember the heretic Geth fleet was there helping Sovreign right?............. They were responsible for the majority of casualties during that fight, not to mention we did not have Thanix cannons during that fight. Not saying conventional victory would be possible. But it would be a nice option considering we dont even get to see the majority of our Assets in action anyway.....

Now remember that the heretic geth have been replaced by legions of much stronger machines (more Reapers).

Thanix cannons are hardly a difference-maker when its carrier can be destroyed so easily by the enemy.

Conventional warfare will kill, like what, 10 Reapers? I'm being generous. And there are THOUSANDS of them.


And that was the whole point, conventional victory was never the plan. It was to get an armada to help transport the Crucible. If you told you allies "we'll all join together and beat them" they'd have laughed in your face. The possibility of the Crucible being the answer is the only reason they follow you.

.............Um, it was the plan until the third game, then all the sudden they found a "mcguffin" super weapon....  until it gets replaced in the ending of ME3 by a "deus ex machina" space child who lives in the citadel.

Modifié par zarnk567, 20 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[RobinEJ]

Hi. It's new idea how to make BW so depressed as we are:
retake campaign "TURN it ON and TURN it OFF" - more info
on HTL (http://www.holdtheli...or-bioware.877/)
on FB (http://www.facebook....10761315601880/)
Please invite your friends!

Shortly how to take part:
- Turn ON the Mass Effect 3 single player campaign at some point during Saturday, April 28th (Pacific Time/GMT -7). It does not need to be on for the entire 24 hour period.
- Tweet Bioware/EA to let them know you are playing in order to show them the number of fans who support them. Post an after action report on the BSN.
- Turn OFF Mass Effect 3 and do not play either single or multiplayer for the entirety of Sunday, April 29th (Pacific Time/GMT -7). The game must be shut off for the entire 24 hour period. Do not log in to the BSN forum during this time.
- Tweet Bioware/EA again to let them know you are demonstrating their potential loss of customers.

[omikron199]

a.m.p wrote...

I have to ask. Did the first two games (let's forget about the third for a moment) give you the impression that the reapers would be defeated through a magical mcguffin device?

Well yes actually as it was clear from the Sovereign battle.
Also the series called MASS EFFECT and ALL Reapers have huge mass effect cores(that is actually their weakness, if  you can exploit 1 - you can exploit all of them at once) and travel across the galaxy with the MASS relays. SO it was kinda obvious that there will be something that uses reaper's MASS EFFECT to stop them .

Im surprised that people didn't put 2 and 2 during the first game to come to the same conclusion

Modifié par omikron199, 20 avril 2012 - 05:33 .

[D_Dude1210]

The sad thing about this all is that people who feel that the ending made sense really do genuinely believe that the Starchild ending was an extremely logical ending without a whole ton of hindsight cognitive bias involved.

Modifié par D_Dude1210, 20 avril 2012 - 05:41 .

[a.m.p]

D_Dude1210 wrote...

The sad thing about this all is that people who feel that the ending made sense really do genuinely believe that the Starchild ending was an extremely logical ending without a whole ton of hindsight cognitive bias involved.

I don't know. I get the impression that people who do like the ending like it being vague and interpreting it in various ways that seem far detached from what I think the original intention was.

Then again, I'm at times extremely confused with the original intention. It would have really helped if someone actually tried talking about what that vision was that apparently formed the current ending. They did mean to say something with it, right?

[Oldbones2]

omikron199 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LMFAO, what?? You people are nuts.

It took the combined Citadel Fleets, DA, and two different Alliance fleets (iirc) to take down Sovereign. You seriously think Shepard's combined war assets are that times a thousand? Please get a reality check.

Oh, and half of your ground forces team was killed before they even touched the ground, in the best case scenario. THat figure can be as high as 75% in the worst case.

There is no frickin way for a conventional victory.

That's Exactly what I was trying to tell above

That's fine.

Let us refuse and die as free people.


I'd prefer a tragic and noble ending, that is true to my Shepard and the series I loved to the stupid and illogical broken mess that we have now.

[Oldbones2]

D_Dude1210 wrote...

The sad thing about this all is that people who feel that the ending made sense really do genuinely believe that the Starchild ending was an extremely logical ending without a whole ton of hindsight cognitive bias involved.

This.

This Retaker vs Pro ender mindset tends to polarize your views pretty quickly.

Doesn't matter if you only liked the ending and tolerated the plot hole or the tone/theme shift.  If you spend hours defending it, you'll slowly findyourself saying it was perfect.

Happens all the time in real life conflicts.


It's also why so many Retakers started threads like the WHOLE GAME is suddenly awful, becuase the ending sucks.

[a.m.p]

Oldbones2 wrote...

D_Dude1210 wrote...

The sad thing about this all is that people who feel that the ending made sense really do genuinely believe that the Starchild ending was an extremely logical ending without a whole ton of hindsight cognitive bias involved.

This.

This Retaker vs Pro ender mindset tends to polarize your views pretty quickly.

Doesn't matter if you only liked the ending and tolerated the plot hole or the tone/theme shift.  If you spend hours defending it, you'll slowly findyourself saying it was perfect.

Happens all the time in real life conflicts.


It's also why so many Retakers started threads like the WHOLE GAME is suddenly awful, becuase the ending sucks.

To be fair, the crucible plot does go through the whole game and it is pretty awful. The crucible-unrelated parts however are stellar and I don't think anyone would debate that.

[Oldbones2]

a.m.p wrote...

Oldbones2 wrote...

D_Dude1210 wrote...

The sad thing about this all is that people who feel that the ending made sense really do genuinely believe that the Starchild ending was an extremely logical ending without a whole ton of hindsight cognitive bias involved.

This.

This Retaker vs Pro ender mindset tends to polarize your views pretty quickly.

Doesn't matter if you only liked the ending and tolerated the plot hole or the tone/theme shift.  If you spend hours defending it, you'll slowly findyourself saying it was perfect.

Happens all the time in real life conflicts.


It's also why so many Retakers started threads like the WHOLE GAME is suddenly awful, becuase the ending sucks.

To be fair, the crucible plot does go through the whole game and it is pretty awful. The crucible-unrelated parts however are stellar and I don't think anyone would debate that.

Your opinion.  However I myself found it to be tolerable.  Since I figured it would exist as a Macguffin not a Deus Ex Machina.

[DxWill103]

So long as choosing No results in reapers winning every time (maybe barely winning with max EMS). Just because you want to win conventionally doesn't mean it's possible. I think if it were possible, that would be yet another plot hole added to the end.
We've been told in the games since day 1 the reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. If that's not enough, than the fact that the reapers are still here speaks for itself. If they were capable of being defeated conventionally, wouldn't it have already happened? The amount of times they've won in conventional war is likely immeasurable.

[a.m.p]

DxWill103 wrote...

So long as choosing No results in reapers winning every time (maybe barely winning with max EMS). Just because you want to win conventionally doesn't mean it's possible. I think if it were possible, that would be yet another plot hole added to the end.
We've been told in the games since day 1 the reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. If that's not enough, than the fact that the reapers are still here speaks for itself. If they were capable of being defeated conventionally, wouldn't it have already happened? The amount of times they've won in conventional war is likely immeasurable.

We've been never before ME3 told the reapers can not be defeated conventionally. This premise appeared when we first found out about the crucible. That's the hilarious thing - ME3 doesn't invent a contrived plot device to defeat an unbeatable enemy. ME3 makes the enemy unbeatable so it could play with it's contrived plot device. For it to work existing lore has to be ignored or retconned, potential solutions have to be handwaved.

Why did they always win before?

ME3 had two choices of how to answer that question:

1) they could have gone with everything previously established (remember Vigil) and shown how previous cycles fell because of the citadel trap working. When communication and transportation in a galaxy are cut, the galaxy is doomed. Period. If it manages to keep fighting regardless for decades/centuries (protheans, as witnessed by Javik and Vigil), that raises a lot of questions about how strong the enemy they are facing is either. This was a prefectly valid explanation of why they always prevail and why they might not prevail in this cycle when the trap didn't work.

2) or they could have gone the opposite way and shown that the reapers are so powerful, nothing can stop them, not even a united galaxy. And they tried to go that way, but never quite got there.

Instead there is a mess of information from both of these scenarios. We get Javik telling us about his war and why it was lost (lack of diversity and being isolated) and five minutes later we talk to Hackett who beats us over the head with the crucible. The war assets screen tells us we're winning battles, the galaxy map paints reapers all over the galaxy. It's a  mess, that if handled carefully could provide more options. That are sorely needed.

Since your first argument is that we're being told we can't I want to ask you this:
1) If some lines of dialogue for Hackett were to be added if you reached the EMS requirement that acknowledged that maybe we have a chance after all - right before endgame, would that make more sense?
2) If the crucible-citadel-catalyst-reapers connection were to be exploited to weaken them and then fight them with the fleet would that still be unacceptable?

[a.m.p]

Oldbones2 wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

To be fair, the crucible plot does go through the whole game and it is pretty awful. The crucible-unrelated parts however are stellar and I don't think anyone would debate that.

Your opinion.  However I myself found it to be tolerable.  Since I figured it would exist as a Macguffin not a Deus Ex Machina.

Well, I didn't mind it at first. However as the game progresses, it's being built and nobody still knows what it does but everyone thinks it's an anti-reaper weapon, it gets progressively worse. If it had been explained in a way that made sense I wouldn't have minded it a bit.

[Byronic-Knight]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

*snip*

And that was the whole point, conventional victory was never the plan. It was to get an armada to help transport the Crucible. If you told you allies "we'll all join together and beat them" they'd have laughed in your face.

And yet, that was the plan Anderson gives you before Hackett diverts you to Mars. That was the plan in ME2 amongst those that believed the Reaper threat existed.

And the doubt about the Reaper threat was the entire reason why the galactic forces needed to be recruited in ME3 at all, because if everyone believed you, you probably would have spent a good portion of the second game recruiting/preparing those forces, with the third game consisting mainly of Reaper battles (an I mean on the scale of what you see on the approach to Earth). 

The whole Crucible thing was a bit too convenient for my taste. 

"What's that Liara? That Prothean archive that we (humans) found forty years ago has plans for a big do-dad incrementally constructed by the cycles stretching back to the dawn of time? You'd think we would have found that before. I mean, this was the place we discovered mass effect technology and achieved FTL travel. 



"Wierd. Well, what does it do? You don't know. Well, do you have any theories? A weapon, huh? Good enough for me! Do you know what it shoots? Oh, well how do you turn it on? A Catalyst? I can go back to Earth and find a flint, will that work? Oh, "catalyst", as in something mysterious that we'll have to find out later. . . That makes sense."



The method for its introduction aside, the plan was always conventional victory before the Crucible was unecessarily injected into the story. Nobody even knew what it did. Why in the world would you put all your faith in a box full of pieces when you could be building either a doomsday weapon or an irrigation system? 

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 20 avril 2012 - 10:33 .

[Byronic-Knight]

PhotonMaze wrote...

If conventional victory is an option, I will kill myself. That would make the Reapers seem so weak and the story would seem so uninspired.

Right because them reducing Thessia, Palaven and Earth to embers is a sure sign of weakness, and unveiling a superweapon you conveniently had stashed away in a closet somewhere is really inspired. 

It's like and episode of Futurama. 

"Good news everyone! I just remembered I have a doomsday device in the backroom!"

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 20 avril 2012 - 09:38 .

[Numara]

But why everybody think they are invincible? They are strong yes and they are many, but their strong point was the surprise, noone knew they existed until they come and harvest organics, so of course they won, noone was prepared to them, but Shepard and company have been years warning about them fighting against them ( no at once but you know XD) The crucible seems just too convient, 3 years with no clue and here you go now that reapers appeared we discovered a bluprint of a weapon that will destroy Reapers... So lets get a Big army just for make sure we can get the crucible done and protect it until we know how the hell it works?

[phantomdasilva]

"Answer this already please
is 1 ddeath better than trillions?"

No

However we don't act out decision in hindsight. We have the catalyst appear before us and it turns out the catalyst controls the reapers. The catalyst is responsible for all the events throughout the MAss Effect series.

Then the catalyst tells us all the solution will result in the destruction of mass relay.

As we know from arrival that would destroy solar system. Now of course in hindsight it turns out the catalyst was telling the truth that the explosion were harmless (as shown by the high EMS ending where the troops on earth survive it) and it turns out we were somehow able to control the reapers without the reapers controlling us. It turns out the destroy ending really did destroy all the reapers.

However people don't make decisions based on hindsight. We can only make decisions with the information presented in front of it and despite the fact that it turns out the catalyst was telling the truth. there was no reason to believe it was telling the truth with the information they were giving us. As far as shepard knows, all of the choices was a trap to blow up the relays to wiped out the galaxy.

From the moment the catalyst say it controls the reapers and that it was their solution. The reliability of their statement comes into question.

If Shepard knew the consequences of each action before the decision then you may have a point but the fact is Shepard doesn't know the consequences. For all he/she knows, choosing any of the options result in a reaper win.

Does that make all of the ME3 pointless in building up the crucible? Well you could write an ending where the crucible damage the reapers allowing for the conventional reapers possible like some one here suggested. Or if you choose the conventional victory, Shepard can conclude (although probably wrongly by hindsight) that the crucible was a reaper trap etc.

In any case, although I prefer the conventional victory, if there was no alternate conventional victory ending (as stated by Bioware that there will be no new ending). I would accept if we meet the starchild and the only option the starchild gives us is synthesis. However Shepard works out the control of the crucible and realised that shooting this thing will destroy the reapers and another device controls the reapers. If Shepard rejects synthesis, then had the starchild voice turning into harbinger warning Shepard not to choose control or destroy and starts telling us stuff to doubt us like (TIM couldn't control the reapers why can't you or choosing destroy will wipe out the geth because they have reaper code). Keep the current ending but alter it so that you have the choice to rebel against the reapers. Actually have Shepard making choices instead of Shepard accepting choices from the primary villain of the game

Modifié par phantomdasilva, 21 avril 2012 - 02:28 .

[Elyiia]

Hey a.m.p, shouldn't it be possible to work out the strength of a FTL ship missile seeing as we know how much a 20kg slug hits for going 1.3% faster than the speed of light?

[Lopez23]

omikron199 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LMFAO, what?? You people are nuts.

It took the combined Citadel Fleets, DA, and two different Alliance fleets (iirc) to take down Sovereign. You seriously think Shepard's combined war assets are that times a thousand? Please get a reality check.

Oh, and half of your ground forces team was killed before they even touched the ground, in the best case scenario. THat figure can be as high as 75% in the worst case.

There is no frickin way for a conventional victory.

That's Exactly what I was trying to tell above

actually its said even in mass effect 1 that only the 5th Fleet was the alliance force to respond to the Citadel Fleets situation as well Admiral Hackett commanded ONLY the 5th Fleet until he was promoted AFTER the battle also the Citadel Fleet i think please forgive me its been a month or two since ive played, but the citadel fleet was spread thin to protect the relays from i think the terminus systems or something to prevent soveriegns attack , also it was stated that The Alliance lost 8 cruisers relieving the battered Citadel Fleet and that was from SAVING the destiny Ascention, it sort of annoys me that they all of a sudden retcon (dont know if im using the term right correct me if im wrong) that the first third and fifth fleets lost one third of their respective numbers if you saved them. I think it is possible though sorry for rambling

Modifié par Lopez23, 21 avril 2012 - 03:19 .

[omikron199]

Lopez23 wrote...

omikron199 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LMFAO, what?? You people are nuts.

It took the combined Citadel Fleets, DA, and two different Alliance fleets (iirc) to take down Sovereign. You seriously think Shepard's combined war assets are that times a thousand? Please get a reality check.

Oh, and half of your ground forces team was killed before they even touched the ground, in the best case scenario. THat figure can be as high as 75% in the worst case.

There is no frickin way for a conventional victory.

That's Exactly what I was trying to tell above

actually its said even in mass effect 1 that only the 5th Fleet was the alliance force to respond to the Citadel Fleets situation as well Admiral Hackett commanded ONLY the 5th Fleet until he was promoted AFTER the battle also the Citadel Fleet i think please forgive me its been a month or two since ive played, but the citadel fleet was spread thin to protect the relays from i think the terminus systems or something to prevent soveriegns attack , also it was stated that The Alliance lost 8 cruisers relieving the battered Citadel Fleet and that was from SAVING the destiny Ascention, it sort of annoys me that they all of a sudden retcon (dont know if im using the term right correct me if im wrong) that the first third and fifth fleets lost one third of their respective numbers if you saved them. I think it is possible though sorry for rambling

my codex says this

1st

This fleet lost a third of its vessels protecting the Council during the Battle of the Citadel two years ago. Unfortunately, the Alliance did not have time to rebuild the fleet to its previous strength before the Reapers invaded.

3rd

This fleet lost a third of its vessels protecting the Council during the Battle of the Citadel two years ago. Unfortunately, the Alliance did not have time to rebuild the fleet to its previous strength before the Reapers invaded.

5th

This fleet lost a third of its vessels protecting the Council during the Battle of the Citadel two years ago. Unfortunately, the Alliance did not have time to rebuild the fleet to its previous strength before the Reapers invaded.

8 ships of the 5th fleet were lost due to saving Destiny ascension, we do not know how much more they lost during the citadel fight in me1. We only know that it was 1/3

Modifié par omikron199, 21 avril 2012 - 05:40 .

[Elyiia]

omikron199 wrote...

Lopez23 wrote...

omikron199 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

LMFAO, what?? You people are nuts.

It took the combined Citadel Fleets, DA, and two different Alliance fleets (iirc) to take down Sovereign. You seriously think Shepard's combined war assets are that times a thousand? Please get a reality check.

Oh, and half of your ground forces team was killed before they even touched the ground, in the best case scenario. THat figure can be as high as 75% in the worst case.

There is no frickin way for a conventional victory.

That's Exactly what I was trying to tell above

actually its said even in mass effect 1 that only the 5th Fleet was the alliance force to respond to the Citadel Fleets situation as well Admiral Hackett commanded ONLY the 5th Fleet until he was promoted AFTER the battle also the Citadel Fleet i think please forgive me its been a month or two since ive played, but the citadel fleet was spread thin to protect the relays from i think the terminus systems or something to prevent soveriegns attack , also it was stated that The Alliance lost 8 cruisers relieving the battered Citadel Fleet and that was from SAVING the destiny Ascention, it sort of annoys me that they all of a sudden retcon (dont know if im using the term right correct me if im wrong) that the first third and fifth fleets lost one third of their respective numbers if you saved them. I think it is possible though sorry for rambling

my codex says this

1st

This fleet lost a third of its vessels protecting the Council during the Battle of the Citadel two years ago. Unfortunately, the Alliance did not have time to rebuild the fleet to its previous strength before the Reapers invaded.

3rd

This fleet lost a third of its vessels protecting the Council during the Battle of the Citadel two years ago. Unfortunately, the Alliance did not have time to rebuild the fleet to its previous strength before the Reapers invaded.

5th

This fleet lost a third of its vessels protecting the Council during the Battle of the Citadel two years ago. Unfortunately, the Alliance did not have time to rebuild the fleet to its previous strength before the Reapers invaded.

8 ships of the 5th fleet were lost due to saving Destiny ascension, we do not know how much more they lost during the citadel fight in me1. We only know that it was 1/3

That's a retcon, in ME1 it's only the fifth fleet that comes through the relay.