913 réponses à ce sujet

[a.m.p]

Byronic-Knight wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

*snip*

Entanglement is strictly point-to-point. To build a huge network based on it you either have to connect each individual reaper to every other, or you have to set up one central hub to which each reaper is connected and that passes information from quantum pair to quantum pair.

Have I just invented a new somewhat lore-justified reaper weakness(that could, if implemented, go with an epic mission to go, say, to dark space and bring down that central hub with your big huge fleet)?

You mean like the Citadel; the home of the Catalyst; the thing that admits to controlling the Reapers? That sort of central hub?

Could be. That is if we go with the big dumb spacesquids controlled by starchild permise. If we however retcon starchild and allow them some amount of brains, the hub could be way out in dark space where they wait out each cycle, unreachable through any other means than... the citadel relay. Which would bring us back to the citadel being the key to this war.

I'm beginning to think the writers didn't think this through very well. . .

That seems to be the problem.

[tufy1]

a.m.p wrote...

Now in-universe the situation is such: I meet an entity that claims to control the reapers and the cycle. It states that the creator/created conflict is inevitable and will always end with synthetics killing all organics everywhere. It tells me that the cycle was a solution and now we need to find a new solution.
He offers me his three choices. All of which he believes are solutions (some temporary) to this problem.
Now I think he's a moron and the problem he is trying to solve does not work the way he thinks it works.
And yet I'm forced to accept one of his solutions.

This is where the whole thing broke down for me, entered the "does not compute" land. I've just spent the entire game pretty much proving this exact "problem" to be wrong. In fact, only two missions before that, I settled a peace treaty between two primary rivals of this cycle and learnt that it was not synthetics, but organics that started it all. Furthermore, the very existence of organics anywhere in the galaxy proves that this problem never occured and that the "solution" is only a solution to a hypothetical problem, one that never happened before (if it did, organics simply wouldn't exist, period). The carefully built up illusion of cohesion from the past three games simply collapses in those two sentences. If we took that ending completely out of context, it would be decentish (minus recolored cinematics), but in-universe, even more so in relation to Shepard and his/her past deeds, it simply doesn't make sense.

[a.m.p]

tufy1 wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Now in-universe the situation is such: I meet an entity that claims to control the reapers and the cycle. It states that the creator/created conflict is inevitable and will always end with synthetics killing all organics everywhere. It tells me that the cycle was a solution and now we need to find a new solution.
He offers me his three choices. All of which he believes are solutions (some temporary) to this problem.
Now I think he's a moron and the problem he is trying to solve does not work the way he thinks it works.
And yet I'm forced to accept one of his solutions.

This is where the whole thing broke down for me, entered the "does not compute" land. I've just spent the entire game pretty much proving this exact "problem" to be wrong. In fact, only two missions before that, I settled a peace treaty between two primary rivals of this cycle and learnt that it was not synthetics, but organics that started it all. Furthermore, the very existence of organics anywhere in the galaxy proves that this problem never occured and that the "solution" is only a solution to a hypothetical problem, one that never happened before (if it did, organics simply wouldn't exist, period). The carefully built up illusion of cohesion from the past three games simply collapses in those two sentences. If we took that ending completely out of context, it would be decentish (minus recolored cinematics), but in-universe, even more so in relation to Shepard and his/her past deeds, it simply doesn't make sense.

Holy hell, I wrote that like 20 pages back. Somebody actually takes the time to read more than the first and the last page.
Thank you!

Anyway. You're right. If put into a different setting and properly explained that ending might be even good.
However as long as Shepard blindly trusts something weird and glowing that appears in the middle of the reaper-built citadel at the most critical moment and asks them to kill themselves in order to solve a nonexistent problem, it is not going to work.

[Noelemahc]

Furthermore, the very existence of organics anywhere in the galaxy proves that this problem never occured and that the "solution" is only a solution to a hypothetical problem, one that never happened before (if it did, organics simply wouldn't exist, period).

There is a circular argument here in the Catalysts's defence, I'm afraid. They exist precisely because the Reapers Reaped everyone before they could get that far. Which still leaves the issue that the Geth, the Zha'Til and whichever synthetic races came before were only defending themselves from organics and, moreover, only became a genuine galaxy-wide threat AFTER THE REAPERS STARTED HELPING THEM.

[Elyiia]

If Bioware absolutely has to keep Star-Jar, it would be rather easy to see how his "core" could be the hub for their communications and destroying it would do to the whole Reaper fleet what happened to Sovereign when we killed Saren.

Have some kind of level of EMS where the Normandy can divert from the battle to pick up Shepard and actually show the war assets and you're good to go.

Modifié par Elyiia, 26 avril 2012 - 10:30 .

[a.m.p]

@Elyiia
That's the general idea.

@ everyone.
About rebellious AI and self-defense.
Let’s look at the evidence we have:
1)    The geth. The biggest example. We have a whole mission dedicated to explaining what happened between the quarians and the geth. The war began after the quarians tried shutting them down. Until Sovereign showed up the geth haven’t been seen beyond the Perseus Veil. Legion in ME2 is the first to support geth-quarian peace. And the moment the quarians stop treating the geth as a property running loose, the war stops. Right there.

2)    EDI. We now know that EDI was that rogue VI  on Luna. We don’t know what exactly happened and whether the alliance first tried to shut her down and then she started fighting back or she attacked and then the alliance tried to shut her down. What we do know is that when the final server is down, “the terminals display the following message in binary, repeated over and over:
01001000
01000101
01001100
01010000
Converting the binary to ASCII reveals that the message reads 'HELP'.  Then Cerberus upgrades her with reaper tech, makes her into a full AI and shackles her. As soon as she is unshackled she saves the ship. Even if you, the player, have been showing nothing but contempt and mistrust towards her.

3)    That first rogue AI we meet on the citadel in ME1 that tries to blow us up:
"Having been discovered, it prepares a self-destruct mechanism. Under Shepard's questioning, this AI explains its origins. A would-be thief created a simple AI to help him steal from the quasar machines. Unknown to the thief, his AI made another, the AI now addressing Shepard, before the thief discovered the 'malfunction' and destroyed his creation.
The surviving AI retaliated by falsifying the thief's financial records, and got him arrested by the turians. It then continued the credit-funnelling operation, intending to get itself installed in a starship so it could make contact with the geth. However, now it has been discovered, the AI is planning to destroy itself and take Shepard with it."

4)    The Zha’til:  a result of an attempted organo-synthetic symbiosis (hello, synthesis?) gone very wrong. The protheans fought them with some success, until the reapers arrived and screwed everyone over effectively preventing the previous cycle from solving their biggest AI problem.

5)    Overlord: a sick Cerberus experiment again trying to integrate the mind of a mathematical savant with the geth network (hello again, synthesis?). The only thing overlord wanted was “quiet - please, make it stop”.

Modifié par a.m.p, 26 avril 2012 - 01:19 .

[Noelemahc]

The gambler AI actually has the exact same logic as the Reapers. "I am a machine, I am superior to organics, they will feel threatened, I must kill whoever threatens me!"

Javik has the same sense of logic, unfortunately, though I guess his opinion is skewed by having been born long after the Reapers invaded his cycle.

The Zha'Til underscore the Reaper's duplicitous hypocrisy -- just like with the Geth, they SIDED with the synthetics they were supposedly protecting organics from. And gave them better weapons. And made them smarter. Woo-ee.

Makes you wonder if the Innusannon had to deal with this crap.

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

The gambler AI actually has the exact same logic as the Reapers. "I am a machine, I am superior to organics, they will feel threatened, I must kill whoever threatens me!"

One of my favouite theories states that the starchild is the gambler AI.
What? Still makes more sense than what actually happened.

And while we're at it. It does only want to kill those who threaten it, not the entire population on the citadel.

[Byronic-Knight]

a.m.p wrote...

Could be. That is if we go with the big dumb spacesquids controlled by starchild permise. If we however retcon starchild and allow them some amount of brains, the hub could be way out in dark space where they wait out each cycle, unreachable through any other means than... the citadel relay. Which would bring us back to the citadel being the key to this war.

See. That is genius.

Despite my general indifference to the starchild's actual presence in the game---and all the effort made by fans to try and make it work---all the best endings seem to be ones where he doesn't exist. 

(Raynulf's re-write being particularly awesome [social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11091594/30#11633697])

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 26 avril 2012 - 04:21 .

[a.m.p]

Byronic-Knight wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Could be. That is if we go with the big dumb spacesquids controlled by starchild permise. If we however retcon starchild and allow them some amount of brains, the hub could be way out in dark space where they wait out each cycle, unreachable through any other means than... the citadel relay. Which would bring us back to the citadel being the key to this war.

See. That is genius.

Thank you, good sir. *drops a curtsey*

Despite my general indifference to the starchild's actual presence in the game---and all the effort made by fans to try and make it work---all the best endings seem to be ones where he doesn't exist.

That's because he creates 85% of all the problems.

(Raynulf's re-write being particularly awesome [social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11091594/30#11633697])

Yes, Raynulf does make people sad about all those potential altrenative realities where the ME3 ending does not include starchild and instead includes brains for characters.

Modifié par a.m.p, 26 avril 2012 - 06:40 .

[Raynulf]

Good News: My wife's discovery of the lack of friction between socks and stairs doesn't seem to have broken anything.
Bad News: She has, however, bruised the bones in her right elbow quite badly. When her arm does eventually recover, she'll also be having to work her butt off to meet deadlines with her current projects.

So the side-project we were working on of a ME3 alternative ending comic is pretty much ruled out (She's the artist, I'm an overimaginative engineer who does stick-figure scribble).

Although it is not precisely in line with the compromise suggested in this thread, it is essentially working with the existing material as much as I find... palatable. So I thought I'd share the concept I was running with (noting that the basis is Renegade femshep who romanced Liara, with all crew from ME2 alive and Ash as VS).

(Edit for formatting and the odd typo).
(Edit 2: I'll likely still finish putting this together in comic form, however it's a bit on the fugly side with just my lack of drawing ability)
 
Part 1: Earth
Page 1:          Get Up, Soldier
Shepard awakes, wounded, among rubble and broken concrete near the Conduit on Earth (either replacing the post-Harbinger section, or continuing if going with IT), fading in from black as Anderson digs her out of the rubble.
 
<Anderson> "I'm amazed you're still alive - Harbinger is tearing through our forces. Hammer's taken heavy losses and is pinned among the debri."
<Shepard> "We've got to keep moving. Everyone's counting on us to get the Citadel arms open."
<Anderson> "I know. But Harbinger hit our comm center on the way down - we're cut off from the fleet and he's jamming local comms. Only message those soldiers are going to get is one they can see with their own eyes."
<Shepard, rising> "Then we need to give them one.... Where's my damn gun?"
 
Page 2-3:      Harbinger Revealed
Garrus & Liara arrive on the scene in a commandeered Mako. Garrus opens the hatch and gestures to the pair.
 
<Garrus> "Yeah. I'm saving your sorry behinds again. Thank me later"
<Liara, blasting husks with cannon> "Anytime now, people!"
<Anderson> "I think that's our cue"
 
Battle between Shepard and the other survivors and Harbinger, during which Harbinger gives the Big Reveal: Humans are the first ideal food race in aeons, and the crucible is a reaper failsafe that will destroy the minds of all organics near active relays.
 
<Harbinger> YOU WILL NOT ACTIVATE THE CRUCIBLE. OUR HARVEST SHALL NOT BE STOPPED
<Shepard> "We've united the entire galaxy against you! Your 'cycle' ends today!"
<Harbinger> THE OTHER ORGANICS ARE IRRELEVANT. YOUR SPECIES IS ALL WE REQUIRE.
<Harbinger> THEY ARE FLAWED. HOMOGENOUS. USELESS. LIKE THE PROTHEANS AND A THOUSAND CYCLES BEFORE THEM, THEY ARE UNSUITED TO ASCENSION AND WILL PURGED FROM THIS GALAXY.
<Shepard> "We will not stand by while you slaughter us! We will stop you!"
<Harbinger> YOU WILL NOT BE PURGED. YOUR SPECIES IS THE FIRST SINCE THE ORIGINAL THAT IS WORTHY OF TRUE ASCENSION. DIVERSE. ADAPTABLE. YOUR KIND WILL FORM A THOUSAND OF MY KINDRED. THE PINNACLE OF EXISTANCE.
<Shepard> "To hell with that! You're the pinnacle of nothing, we've proven you can be killed!"
<Harbinger> YOU HAVE PROVEN NOTHING. THOSE YOU HAVE DESTROYED ARE INFERIOR. IMMITATIONS.  ONLY SOVEREIGN WAS OUR EQUAL, AND IT SACRIFICED ITS EXISTANCE TO COMPLETE THIS CYCLE. AS WAS ITS FUNCTION.
<Shepard> "Bull****! We destroyed it, and we'll destroy you!"
<Harbinger> YOU FUMBLE IN IGNORANCE. WE WILL NOT PERMIT YOU TO ACTIVATE OUR CRUCIBLE. 
<Shepard> "YOUR Crucible?"
<Harbinger> THE CRUCIBLE IS OUR FAILSAFE AGAINST THE CHAOS OF ORGANIC DEVELOPMENT. DISGUISED AS THEIR ONLY HOPE, ORGANICS SQUANDER THEIR LAST RESOURCES BUILDING WHAT THEY DO NOT COMPREHEND, AND CAUSE THEIR OWN END.
<Shepard> "What are you talking about? Why would you use such a deception?"
<Harbinger> YOU ARE NOT THE FIRST CYCLE TO DEVIATE FROM THE PATTERN. THE CRUCIBLE IS A WEAPON. OUR WEAPON. MERGED WITH THE CITADEL IT AMPLIFIES AND BROADCASTS THE INDOCTRINATION SIGNAL THROUGH ALL ACTIVE MASS RELAYS.
<Shepard> "If that's true, why are you telling me this? Why are you trying to stop me?"
<Harbinger> INDOCTRINATED ORGANICS CANNOT BE ASCENDED. THEY CAN ONLY BE USED AS TOOLS AND RAW MATERIALS. YOUR SPECIES HAS TOO MUCH POTENTIAL TO PERMIT YOU TO DESTROY IT.

Page 4:          Punch It!
Citadel starts opening (without anyone reaching it), Harbinger roars and flies up towards it, ending the conversation. Shepard + Co gun the Mako through the conduit.
 
<Liara> "By the Goddess! The arms are opening... but who's doing it?"

Part 2: Citadel
Page 5:          Getting Better At This
Arriving on the Citadel, the Mako bounces and screeches to a halt.
 
<Liara> "That seemed familiar"
<Garrus> "Hey, at least he didn't trash it this time"
 
Show vista of reaper-minion army occupying this part of the presidium, with a firefight in the distance near the elevator to the Council chambers (Citadel HQ).
 
<Liara> "Looks like there are survivors"
<Garrus> "Not for too much longer if the reapers keep sending in more reinforcements"
<Shepard> "Then we should give them a hand. Liara, take the gun"
<Garrus> "Shepard... you know I'm better at long-range targeting, right?"
<Shepard> "Exactly"

Page 6:          Bustin' Through
Mako engine revs up and the wheels screech as Shepard puts the accelerator to the floor.
 
<Garrus> "Oh... you have got to be kidding me..."
 
Charge Mako through the horde until it is incapacitated near the front lines - abandoning the vehicle which is quickly destroyed, flipping it over onto the roof.
 
<Liara> "Yep. Real familiar"
<Garrus> "At least HE didn't trash it this time"
 
Page 7-8:      Holding The Line
Fight to front lines, where C-Sec are desperately holding the reaper-minions back. Matriarch Aethyta and Captain Bailey leading the defense.
 
<Shepard> "Bailey, Aethyta! We need to get the arms closed again!"
<Bailey> "Tell me about it, Shepard! We got them closed after Indoctrinated Agents somehow used the mass relay in the Citadel to jump us here, but we've had to move everyone who could hold a gun here to keep the reapers at bay. We've lost control of the HQ"
<Shepard> "Lost control? To the reapers?"
<Aethyta> "No. Cerberus. Those miserable sons-of-****es must have smuggled in reinforcements just before we jumped. Bastards hit us from the rear and stormed the HQ. Now they're dug in, and we can't spare the troops to dislodge 'em."
<Garrus> "Damnit! The Illusive Man has a talent for picking the best moments to be a real pain in the ass"
<Anderson> "We can't leave him in control of the Citadel. There's no telling WHAT he'll do with the Crucible. He's likely to kill us all!"
<Shepard> "Bailey, Aethyta, the reapers won't be getting many reinforcements from Earth. We need you to hold them here and keep them off our backs. We need to get to Citadel HQ.".

Page 9:          Dog Pound
Montage of Shepard, Liara, Garrus & Anderson fighting through Cerberus troops as the fleet moves the Crucible into position. On reaching HQ, Garrus and Liara remain behind to guard the rear while Shepard & Anderson go on to shut down the controls and stop the Crucible from firing.
 
<Anderson> "Shepard, we can't fight Cerberus on two fronts."
<Shepard> "Liara, Garrus, hold this point. Anderson and I need to end this"
<Garrus> "We've got your back. Give 'em hell, Shepard."

Page 10-11: Some Call Him... TIM
Discover Illusive Man in the control room, sporting new cybernetic upgrades. He flexes his newfound power to control Shepard's body (implants in it), paralysing her, while reaper-machinery in the room lashes out and impales Anderson, pinning him to the floor (mortal wound, but not instagib).
 
Outside, the fleet are holding the Reapers outside of firing range of the Crucible, in a colossal space battle.
 
Verbal confrontation with The Illusive Man.
 
<In a similar vein to current dialogue, but less... verbose. Was still working on this bit>
 
TIM argues that this is the opportunity for humanity to seize its destiny - turning the Crucible against them he control them, and in doing so humanity will ascend on its own terms. Shepard argues against this, appealing to the fact that humanity is not ready for such a move, and the cost is too high - higher than TIM would have paid to the Collectors.
 
TIM, about to activate the Crucible, falters, losing control of Shepard as he does so. Shepard takes the opportunity to leap forward and punch her omniblade through his chest.
 
Page 12:        Sucker Punch
<Liara, via comms> "Shepard? Come in Shepard. I've managed to jury-rig a Cerberus comms unit to connect to the Normandy. Patching you through"
 
<EDI> "Shepard? We lost communication when..."
<Shepard> "There isn't time to explain, EDI. I need you and Joker to calculate FTL paths for Shield fleet away from the Citadel and coordinate the ships by tight beam."
<Joker> "FTL? With THIS much debri in local? I think you've had a few too many hits to the head Comma.."
<EDI> "FTL coordinates calculated. What are you planning, Commander?"
<Shepard> "Just trust me. There's going to be a lot of reapers heading this way real soon, and when I say the word, I need the fleet to scatter"
<Joker> "Scatter? Commander, in case you hadn't noticed, that would leave the Reapers a clear shot at the Crucible...."
<Shepard> "I'm counting on it."
 
Shepard punches in a series of commands and leaves the console with the alerts flashing of <OVERLOAD IMMENENT> and <DOCKING CLAMPS RELEASED> and turns to rescue Anderson from the Cerberus machinery, with the citadel arms closing in the background. Hauling him over one shoulder, Shepard runs desperately down the corridor.
 
<Shepard> "Joker, EDI, NOW!"
 
Outside the Citadel, the reaper swarm races towards the Citadel at top speed. As they close, the Shield fleet goes to FTL speed to jump clear, and the truth is revealed: The citadel is closing up after having detached the Crucible - which is going critical.
 
Page 13: Boom
As the reapers try to alter course, the Crucible explodes, destroying the bulk of the reapers with it, and damaging the Citadel itself. Full page spread of boom.
 
Part 3: Resolution / Epilogue
Page 14:        Well Earned Rest
Shepard and Anderson lying among/under debri, with both wounded (Anderson far more so)
 
<Anderson> "Most advanced weapon we ever built, and you made a bomb out of it"
<Shepard> "It was always too complicated for my taste anyway"
<Anderson> "Heh. That's funny"
<Shepard> "What?"
<Anderson> "You just pulled the greatest sucker punch in history"
<Shepard - chuckle cut off by groan> "You're right. That is pretty funny"
<Anderson> "You did good. I'm proud of you, kid..."
<Shepard> "Couldn't have done it without you, sir"
Silence
<Shepard> "Sir?"
Silence
<Shepard> "Anderson?"
 
With effort, Shepard pulls herself up to look at Anderson, who has passed away in the interim, a slight smile still on his face. Shaking, Shepard blacks out.
 
Page 15:        Tables Turned
Light pours onto Shepard and Anderson as debri is moved away by Garrus, Liara + others.
 
<Liara> "Shepard? SHEPARD! Oh Goddess, she's a mess! Get a medic!"
<Garrus> "Hackett, Vakarian here. We've found Shepard - she's alive but barely. What's the ETA on the Evac?"
<Hackett> "Shepard's little stunt wiped out over 93% of the reaper forces here - including all their major assets. Most of the others are fleeing through the Charon relay. We've regrouped Sword and Shield fleets and are mopping up the handful still fighting. I've sent the Normandy your way - it's small enough to get through some of the holes in the superstructure you caused"
<Liara, trying to staunch Shepard bleeding leg> "She's bleeding all over and.... her leg is missing. WHERE IS THAT DAMN MEDIC!?"
 
Cut to the scene outside as ships of all races converge and obliterate the handful of reapers still in the Sol system.

Page 16-18: Resolution (More concepts at this point)
Scene of earth, with sun rising over London - reapers falling from the sky throughout the horizon. Human, Turian, Krogan and Geth soldiers standing bloody but victorious over a field of collapsed reaper minions - their will to fight as dead as their masters.
 
Scene of Wrex, Grunt and Jack yelling in triumph.
 
Scene of Ash and Vega leaning  exhausted on a ruined building.
 
<Vega> "I gotta admit it. You sure know how to handle a weapon"
<Ash> "Mm-hmm"
<Vega> "What?"
<Ash> "Later. I need a shower. "
 
Scene of Javik sitting on a mound of broken rubble. Silently watching the reapers fall from the sky with a relaxed smile on his face.
 
Scene (3 parts) of Anderson being carried on a stretcher, with Kayleigh Sanders running up, reaching out to him, before stopping herself - her face falling in grief.

Page 19:        Epilogue part 1
Scene of Shepard in sickbay, missing a leg and most of a hand with Liara at her side. Background has silhouette of Tali and Garrus, one arm around the other, silently watching over their friend.
 
<Liara > "It's... it's going to be okay, Shepard. The blood transfusion is going well, and Dr. Chakwas says there's no residual infection."
<Liara, glancing down at Shepard's missing leg> "And... and human-compatible prosthetics have come a long way in recent years. Even if one isn't available locally I'm sure if we talk to my people we can adapt..."
<Shepard, quietly> "Liara... I'll be okay."
<Liara> "But.."
<Shepard, touching Liara's hand> "We... I have a future, and the person I want to spend it with. What more could I ask for?"
<Liara, weeping> "Oh...Love..."
<Shepard, smirking slightly> "Besides. You should see the other guy"
 
Page 20:        Epilogue part 2
Normandy sickbay image turns into holoscreen.
 
<Hidden> "You always were a bloody hero"
 
Zooming back to see a suited Miranda sitting in the Illusive Man's chair, with a briefcase computer diplaying a <DOWNLOAD COMPLETE> alert.
 
<Unknown> "Ms Lawson, the charges are set. Are you sure you don't want to bring any of the artefacts with..."
 
<Miranda> "Absolutely not. The Illusive Man gambled on being able to control Reaper technology - and lost. I have no intention of repeating his mistake."
 
Closing the briefcase (with computer inside), she stands and walks towards the camera.
 
<Miranda> "No. Now we do things my way."
 

Note 1: The Miranda scene, while not strictly necessary, I felt was appropriate to end with to add a bit more depth to the ending scenario, and inspire some thought on how the universe will be afterwards.

Note 2: The Resolution scenes would take a couple more pages as written. It would need a balance between showing enough and not being too gratuitous.


TL/DR:
Alternative ending concept, either replacing everything post-Harbinger (no IT), or carrying on from Shepard waking up (IT).

• Shepard dug out of the rubble by Anderson, Liara & Garrus
• Team get into Mako and fight Harbinger alongside their allies
• Harbinger reveal of Reaper motivation and the Crucible being a reaper-made trap, which they don't want you to activate until they've harvested humanity.
• Citadel arms open, Harbinger + almost all the other reapers rush off to try and stop the Crucible docking/firing.
• Shep & Co drive into the Conduit to reach the Citadel.
• Drive/fight through husk-army to reach C-Sec line. Reveal Citadel was moved by indoctrinated agents.
• Reveal cerberus commandos have captured Citadel HQ while C-Sec was fighting husks.
• Fight through Cerberus, leave Liara & Garrus to hold the door while Anderson & Shep confront TIM
• TIM incapacitates and wounds Anderson, and 'controls' Shepard via her implants.
• Shepard & TIM argue about his certainty that controlling the reapers is possible and worth the cost. TIM's resolve falters, Shep breaks free and omniblade's his face.
• Message sent out to Shield fleet to flee, Shep sets the Crucible to detach and explode, and Citadel arms to close.
• Reapers come in too fast to escape Shep's trap by the time the see it. Crucible explodes, most reapers die, Citadel damaged.
• Anderson & Shep share celebratory banter before Anderson dies from his wounds.
• Liara & Garrus dig Shep out of the debri, with Shep badly wounded.
• Garrus gets update from Hackett that 93% reapers died in blast, allied fleet mopping up the remainder who haven't fled.
• Celebratory scenes
• Shepard in hospital missing leg and most of an arm, body shattered but resolve unbroken.
• Final epilogue scene of Miranda taking control and repurposing Cerberus.

Modifié par Raynulf, 27 avril 2012 - 07:41 .

[a.m.p]

Raynulf.
You are awesome. Your wife is awesome. Please tell her that we wish her a swift recovery.
That above thing that you posted is awesome.

This:

Shepard's little stunt wiped out over 93% of the reaper forces here - including all their major assets. Most of the others are fleeing through the Charon relay. We've regrouped Sword and Shield fleets and are mopping up the handful still fighting."

is perfect.

Dropping this into my big page one list right now.

[a.m.p]

On reaper numbers.
Yes, I decided to go there. I usually try to avoid that topic because it’s math based on assumptions that results in random numbers. Not in valid estimates.

But yesterday I was told that if I did the math, I’d discover there are 50 billion sovereign-class reapers, give or take.
I think this is getting a bit ridiculous. So let’s try and do the math.

First a few facts.
1)    At the moment of the crucible activation all reapers are in Milky Way. Because if that wasn’t the case, then whichever color explosion we chose would just blow up the relays without solving the reaper problem.

2)    Weeks into the war there was one little destroyer on Tuchanka. Not a reaper fleet.

3)    Months into the war there was one little destroyer on Ranncoh. Not a reaper fleet.

4)    The battle for Earth: the reapers on Earth were pressed so hard that only when the direct need arose did they send a few sov-class reapers including Harbinger to protect the single weak point of their operation – the conduit. Until then it was again a lonely destroyer. (Assuming they had a few million sov-class reapers in Sol and couldn’t be bothered to spare a couple dozen to land and stomp all over Anderson’s command post brings us back to the reapers are all morons premise).

So keeping all that in mind, let’s look at this cutscene.
Here is the biggest group shot of our reaper friends that is in the game.


It’s right before the battle begins. I took my time and counted them. It’s about a hundred. The cutscene shows there are more to the left and to the right, so let’s double that number.

200.

Let’s take into account that not necessarily all of the reapers in Sol are in that line.

Let’s double the number again. Why do I only double it and don’t consider that there are thousands more on the surface or faffing about all over the solar system? Because reapers are supposed to be effective and that line is supposed to stop the single thing in the galaxy that can kill them all. They know about the crucible.

So. 400. Give or take. Ah, hell, let’s triple it and say it’s 600.

That is all they could spare to “consolidate power around the Catalyst and protect it at all costs”. While having to maintain presence in all these places:

That’s 24 clusters besides Sol.

So where are those fifty billion sov-class reapers?

Let’s go into wild speculations area.
While I was working on my map, I found that the total amount of clusters that do appear on the map in all three games is 47. Part of those don’t have any significant population to speak of and don’t require large reaper fleets to hold.

We can assume that there are other populated clusters in the galaxy that are never mentioned and that the reapers might occupy. Let’s again triple that number of occupied clusters that are shown on the map. 72.

Round up to 80.

Considering that the reaper forces in Sol are supposed to be the biggest reaper fleet (again, because they “consolidate power around the Catalyst and protect it at all costs”), that means that all those other clusters have less than 600 reaper capital ships in them. Multiplying gives us the upper limit: 48000.

Let’s now figure out the lower limit. Let’s say just the 24 clusters that the map shows are occupied. Let’s remember Rannoch that only had one little destroyer. Let’s say it’s an average 10 sov-class reapers per cluster.
240. Plus 600 in Sol. Less than a thousand.

Let’s now try making some middle ground assumptions. Say those hypothetical 80 clusters that need to be held at this time have an average of 30 sov-class reapers.

2400. Plus 600 at Sol. 3000 total.

Edit: linked this and my other relevant posts with pictures on the first page.

Modifié par a.m.p, 27 avril 2012 - 05:42 .

[Noelemahc]

Holy frelldren! Raynulf, that was most excellent! I would gladly give up my own leg (the right one, the joints are all busted up anyway) to have THAT as the ending. Seriously. Where do I ship it to get this made? Or donate whatever organs are necessary for your wife's recovery?

Also, totally ninja-ed me on the idea that a conventional-victory Shepard isn't gonna walk away whole. My 4th Ending Epilogue had him/her limping onto the bridge of the Normandy with a cane because he/she hadn't adapted to the prosthetic yet.

About the only improvement I could suggest would be for Liara to react to Aethyta's presence if you reunited them earlier. Remember her breakdown in Benezia's presence in ME1? A mirror of that, showing the difference in her relationship with her father, as well as her own maturation, would work wonders on the viewer =)

Great idea on Miranda taking Cerberus over, sets us up nicely for a sequel or seven in proper Metal Gear Solid manner. I would expect there to be a snide reveal that the voice she was talking to was Ezno, but I assume that his story in Infiltrator isn't finished yet, judging from how abruptly the game ends. In any case...
Noel approves (+15).

(Small nitpick - all instances of "debris" in your post are missing the s, is that some sort of hidden meaning?)

We can assume that there are other populated clusters in the galaxy that are never mentioned and that the reapers might occupy. Let’s again triple that number of occupied clusters that are shown on the map. 72.

Yeah, sometimes you get chased by Reapers even when entering a cluster/region that does not have a Reaper over it on the main map. Let's assume those are exploration/recon bunches that aren't present en masse and therefore cannot be detected without entering the cluster directly and risking detection yourself. I suppose we could also try to gauge the precise amount of Reapers on the prowl in every system (because it's a specific number pertinent to each system, ranging from 2 to 6, IIRC) as an indirect indication of the amount of Reaper presence.

In any case, solid job on the counting =) The statistician in me applauds you.

Modifié par Noelemahc, 27 avril 2012 - 01:23 .

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

Holy frelldren! Raynulf, that was most excellent! I would gladly give up my own leg (the right one, the joints are all busted up anyway) to have THAT as the ending. Seriously. Where do I ship it to get this made? Or donate whatever organs are necessary for your wife's recovery?

Seconded.

We can assume that there are other populated clusters in the galaxy that are never mentioned and that the reapers might occupy. Let’s again triple that number of occupied clusters that are shown on the map. 72.

Yeah, sometimes you get chased by Reapers even when entering a cluster/region that does not have a Reaper over it on the main map. Let's assume those are exploration/recon bunches that aren't present en masse and therefore cannot be detected without entering the cluster directly and risking detection yourself. I suppose we could also try to gauge the precise amount of Reapers on the prowl in every system (because it's a specific number pertinent to each system, ranging from 2 to 6, IIRC) as an indirect indication of the amount of Reaper presence.

Ah, yes. The 'outrun six space squids' minigame.
I think somewhere around page ten me and Solmanian agreed that it was a silly minigame and should not be included into any serious attempts at analyzing the strategic situation in the galaxy.

Because if we consider that all over the galaxy there are these lonely bored reapers that come running whenever Shepard enters a system and starts beeping, that begs the question: why don't we assemble an assault fleet of some twelve dreadnaughts + support ships and go hunt those lonely reapers? Am I the only one who can see some ways that the dreadnaughts + relays + QEC + maybe the IFF (if it's what I think it is) can be used to somewhat reduce the number of lonely reapers out in the galaxy?

And if we use them as indication of how many reapers there are in any given cluster relative to, say, Sol or Thessia, that means I have to go back into the game, fly to every single star system and count. Not what I have planned to do in that whole Turn on/Turn off weekend.

I was actually hesitant to start counting the cinematics as evidence. Because if we take all the ME cinematics literally, then Earth is destroyed no matter what you picked and what your EMS was. Either by the citadel falling down on it, or by all those shots, that missed their targets.

But I'm going to pretend the cinematics team got some direction from the writing team at least on how many reapers to put in their cinematic.

Modifié par a.m.p, 27 avril 2012 - 03:41 .

[Noelemahc]

My idea was just about using them as a relative indicator, but now that you mention it, I guess we have no frame of reference on how the little cuttlefish in the map would correlate to how many of them really are there, trying to nom-nom the Nommandy.

Not what I have planned to do in that whole Turn on/Turn off weekend.

Between work and personal life, I'm not sure I'll have time to turn it on, actually >_<
But if I do, it's gonna be Dragon Age 2. Dusted off my old barely-started playthrough with a save-editor preconstructed save for maximum lulz (i.e. Warden was a gay Dalish girl, who did the foursome with Leliana and Zevran and totally made Alistair king after making him boink Morrigan), One of these days I REALLY have to stop making new Hawkes and play through the story DLCs at least once XD

But I digress.

Am I the only one who can see some ways that the dreadnaughts + relays + QEC + maybe the IFF (if it's what I think it is) can be used to somewhat reduce the number of lonely reapers out in the galaxy?

I'm surprised this isn't a minigame in and of itself. What does Hackett DO with all those ships we send his way? The game would be 17% more awesome if it had Infinite Space-style mini-cutscenes showing how our dudes frelled up their dudes over some nameless desert planet. LV426, maybe*.

___________
* - Seriously, that's what the planet** in the final boss fight in Mass Effect Infiltrator is called.
** - While we're on the subject of ME:I, how come in its cosmic flyby scenes the planets and starships and all the stuff that flies in space looks approximately 182% prettier than ANYTHING we see of hardspace scenes in ME3? Even ME1's in-engine cutscenes of outer space were better-looking than ME3's prerenders.

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

Am I the only one who can see some ways that the dreadnaughts + relays + QEC + maybe the IFF (if it's what I think it is) can be used to somewhat reduce the number of lonely reapers out in the galaxy?

I'm surprised this isn't a minigame in and of itself. What does Hackett DO with all those ships we send his way?

He tells them how they can't win conventionally. I was almost as angry about turning Hackett into the megaphone of defeatism, as I was about "Shepard, would you kindly pick one of these three random options".

** - While we're on the subject of ME:I, how come in its cosmic flyby scenes the planets and starships and all the stuff that flies in space looks approximately 182% prettier than ANYTHING we see of hardspace scenes in ME3? Even ME1's in-engine cutscenes of outer space were better-looking than ME3's prerenders.

No idea.
While we're on the topic of ME1, I've been playing through a couple of side missions a day, for therapeutic purposes (one can imagine it's a bunch of people on an old mako reexploring the galaxy).
Those random square chunks of terrain with the skies over them are beautiful.

[Noelemahc]

While we're on the topic of ME1, I've been playing through a couple of side missions a day, for therapeutic purposes (one can imagine it's a bunch of people on an old mako reexploring the galaxy).
Those random square chunks of terrain with the skies over them are beautiful.

They are, aren't they? Damn, I miss that game. It refuses to run in a proper manner on my Win7 x64 machine ='( It's very depressing.

He tells them how they can't win conventionally. I was almost as angry about turning Hackett into the megaphone of defeatism, as I was about "Shepard, would you kindly pick one of these three random options".

Hah! Good old BioShock =)

I'm thinking that if there is ever a retcon to fix all this, it has to start off with Hackett. As soon as his opinion of unwinnability (or, rather, winnability, because in some scenes he sounds like he's sure we CAN win this without the Crucible, leaving it as a desperate last-resort us-or-them now-or-never coke-or-pepsi moment) is shifted, the whole storyline will flow differently. Ah, if wishes were fishes...


Back to statistics: is it ever mentioned anywhere whether ALL the Reapers there are are in our galaxy? Or what we got is some sort of designated invasion force, while the Main Army stays back in dark space? Cue KotOR ending, when Revan departs to fight the True Sith...

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

Back to statistics: is it ever mentioned anywhere whether ALL the Reapers there are are in our galaxy? Or what we got is some sort of designated invasion force, while the Main Army stays back in dark space?

Not to my knowledge.
I made the assumption based in the fact that a series of fireworks across the galaxy is implied to be the ultimate solution to the reaper problem.
Someone a few weeks ago tried to explain me how blowing up the relays would benefit the galaxy, because it would slow down all the remaining reapers that Bioware never said weren't there. I put that on my very short list of things worse than our given endings.

Actually, that's another point to add to 'why the hell doesn't Shepard think about this?'. They are told that the crucible works through the relay network. They sure don't know for certain all reapers are in Milky Way.

Cue KotOR ending, when Revan departs to fight the True Sith...

That never happened. The jedi totally made that up. Revan actually went to try and fix everything that good old Malak screwed up while left on his own. Three hundred years later this happened.

Modifié par a.m.p, 27 avril 2012 - 07:45 .

[Noelemahc]

Yeah, yeah, I'm aware that they retconned away most of KotOR2 and a significant bit of KotOR1, the most important point being that Revan was genuinely trying to UNITE the galaxy against the True Sith, and instead they made him a stooge that decided to have delusions of grandeur. I'm still angry about it.

Actually, that's another point to add to 'why the hell doesn't Shepard think about this?'. They are told that the crucible works through the relay network. They sure don't know for certain all reapers are in Milky Way.

Yes, that's what worries me. I've seen several threads with ideas on the matter of "well, what if ours isn't the ONLY galaxy the Reapers visit with their safari tours? We don't really know anything about that, have no way of knowing their true numbers, etc, etc".

Someone has invented themselves a headcanon that makes Reapers scary Eldritch Abominations again!

(It's also a very cheap cop-out for a ME4 that is ready and able to serve if BioWare fails to invent a decent new villain/antagonist/evil/whatever, even though DA2 has clearly shown that you don't NEED an overarching megavillain to tell a good story)

[Raynulf]

Noelemahc wrote...

Holy frelldren! Raynulf, that was most excellent! I would gladly give up my own leg (the right one, the joints are all busted up anyway) to have THAT as the ending. Seriously. Where do I ship it to get this made? Or donate whatever organs are necessary for your wife's recovery?

*Slightly embarrassed* Thank you! I'll be tinkering with it still - though I suspect that in the EC vs Raynulf learning to draw race, the EC may well win.

Noelemahc wrote...
(Small nitpick - all instances of "debris" in your post are missing the s, is that some sort of hidden meaning?)

I type rather on automatic, and my brain occassionally insists that words are spelled differently to how the English language says they are. My usual failing is using ' in possessive "its" without noticing.

a.m.p wrote...

Let’s now figure out the lower limit. Let’s say just the 24 clusters that the map shows are occupied. Let’s remember Rannoch that only had one little destroyer. Let’s say it’s an average 10 sov-class reapers per cluster.
240. Plus 600 in Sol. Less than a thousand.

Let’s now try making some middle ground assumptions. Say those hypothetical 80 clusters that need to be held at this time have an average of 30 sov-class reapers.

2400. Plus 600 at Sol. 3000 total.

500 - 2000 capital ships, plus maybe twice that in Destroyers*, would be fairly consistent with what little strategy the game presents them as using, assuming they aren't morons.

When the reapers attacked Earth, they destroyed one fleet of many, with the rest of the human fleets withdrawing - which they didn't persue and hunt down, instead landing harvesters on earth to begin reaping humanity.

When reapers attacked Palaven, they continued to be fighting in space throughout the entire game, never once committing enough war assets to simply hunt down and destroy the Turian fleet - just enough to hold them off and start harvesting Turians for reaper-building-material and husks and resources.


If the reapers have enough ships to fight the entire combined galactic fleet and win, why use a strategy of take-and-hold? And why ignore the Citadel?


Two possible answers:

1) The reapers are morons (though in many respects they are in ME3 - like fighting on the ground before the space battle is over)

2) They don't have enough ships to fight everyone at once and decisively win, so instead they are capturing the best 'foodstock' planets to make more reapers out of them and build up their forces before moving on to the next species.


As I like to believe that cybercthulu are not morons, I'd be suggesting 800-1000 capital reapers, with the "Chase the Normandy" ones being merely destroyers.


*Destroyers are cannon fodder. They can be killed by an infantry weapon (Cain) fired when their shielding is open to fire, and in any space combat will die in droves.

From a gameplay perspective, this makes sense: You need reapers you can fight (that is actually the reason they exist).

From the Spacekid's speel, this makes no sense at all: Why attempt to preserve a previous race in a reaper form so frail that the next time you blunder into the galaxy going "RAWR WE KILL YOU ALL TO SAVE YOU!" a bunch of them will get obliterated?

[Byronic-Knight]

 Concerning Reaper numbers: 

I remember seeing stated somewhere (well before ME3 had come out), that the third-last shot in ME2* shows the entire Reaper fleet, and that somebody had counted them to number about three-hundred or so (and, oddly, different "models" of capital ships---i.e. they don't all appear to be the generic, cuttlefish shape). 

*This one: images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/6/69/Reaper_fleet.png 

Now, seeing that there is ostensible cut-off all round, you could triple that and still have roughly nine-hundred. Hell, you could quintuple that and still only have 1500 capital ships. A far cry from, what was that, 50 billion?  

It is even an immense reduction from your (reasonably deduced) 48000

In fact, to reach that number, you would need to multiply the (rough) numbers depicted in that final shot of ME2** by 160. Perhaps you could argue that it's just another contradiction between games, but that is a pretty gross understatement in regard to the (quite frightening) image in ME2, or an absurd overstatement in regard to forces estimated in ME3. 

**Again, this one: images.wikia.com/masseffect/images/6/69/Reaper_fleet.png

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 28 avril 2012 - 04:13 .

[Noelemahc]

Two possible answers:

1) The reapers are morons (though in many respects they are in ME3 - like fighting on the ground before the space battle is over)

2) They don't have enough ships to fight everyone at once and decisively win, so instead they are capturing the best 'foodstock' planets to make more reapers out of them and build up their forces before moving on to the next species.

You, sir, are a genius. Have a cookie.

This has been baffling me for the longest time. Why is there only one Reaper engaged in anything on Rannoch? Did they expect the geth to win the war for them? (Well, we know that they would've, as they do even if the Reaper dies and Shepard decides to not intervene; but isn't that a little TOO risky?)

Why is there only one Reaper on Tuchanka? Yeah, we are repeatedly told it's a recon force, but... Where are those Brutes dropping in on you from when you are activating the Maw Hammer? The Planet Klendathu*? The only Reaper in the sector is trying to STEP on you at that very moment, and IIRC there are no Harvesters in the skies in that level. Where do the Reaper forces magically disappear to when Kalros eats the Reaper?

Why there are no Reapers around Sur'Kesh? Why they don't even send a recon force? Yet they occupy Dekkuuna to the point where evacuation fails as badly as on Urth (or worse) even though the Elcor, like the Krogan, do not have a statistically significant fleet.

Really makes you wonder how stretched out the Reaper forces actually are... or whether something is frelled up in their threat assessment protocols.

__________
* - Seriously, it's like they imported this fill-in-the-blanks-yourself-its-not-a-plothole from Starship Troopers The Movie verbatim!

Modifié par Noelemahc, 28 avril 2012 - 08:08 .

[a.m.p]

I think all that about reaper numbers and strategies deserves its own thread. When I have the time, I'd like to compile all that we've found in one big list and post it. (probably not before monday). So we can engage the 50-billion-reapers people in enlightened and civil discussion.
Any objections?

[Elyiia]

The Reaper Capital ships cannot be that numerous, or else they must be barely stronger than a destroyer. With 51% at Earth (we're told the majority is at Earth so that's anything from 51% - 99%, assuming 51% for maximum numbers).

With 20,000 Reapers that means just over 10,000 in the fight for Earth. 10,000 Capital ships would have destroyed our fleet within seconds of them jumping in.

The number has to be far, far lower.

Modifié par Elyiia, 28 avril 2012 - 11:33 .