913 réponses à ce sujet

[a.m.p]

Elyiia wrote...

The Reaper Capital ships cannot be that numerous, or else they must be barely stronger than a destroyer. With 51% at Earth (we're told the majority is at Earth so that's anything from 51% - 99%, assuming 51% for maximum numbers).

With 20,000 Reapers that means just over 10,000 in the fight for Earth. 10,000 Capital ships would have destroyed our fleet within seconds of them jumping in.

The number has to be far, far lower.

I was thinking about that. Is there actually a place in-game that specifically states that the majority is at Earth? I couldn't find it. I remember that it was my impression though.

[Elyiia]

a.m.p wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Reaper Capital ships cannot be that numerous, or else they must be barely stronger than a destroyer. With 51% at Earth (we're told the majority is at Earth so that's anything from 51% - 99%, assuming 51% for maximum numbers).

With 20,000 Reapers that means just over 10,000 in the fight for Earth. 10,000 Capital ships would have destroyed our fleet within seconds of them jumping in.

The number has to be far, far lower.

I was thinking about that. Is there actually a place in-game that specifically states that the majority is at Earth? I couldn't find it. I remember that it was my impression though.

I know it is said somewhere in game, but I'm not entirely sure where. I'm pretty sure Hacket says it.

[a.m.p]

Elyiia wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

The Reaper Capital ships cannot be that numerous, or else they must be barely stronger than a destroyer. With 51% at Earth (we're told the majority is at Earth so that's anything from 51% - 99%, assuming 51% for maximum numbers).

With 20,000 Reapers that means just over 10,000 in the fight for Earth. 10,000 Capital ships would have destroyed our fleet within seconds of them jumping in.

The number has to be far, far lower.

I was thinking about that. Is there actually a place in-game that specifically states that the majority is at Earth? I couldn't find it. I remember that it was my impression though.

I know it is said somewhere in game, but I'm not entirely sure where. I'm pretty sure Hacket says it.

Between Cronos Station and Earth?
Then I'm going to try find that line.

[Elyiia]

Might be, would make sense for it to be there. Something about protecting the Citadel with the majority of the Reaper fleet or something.

[Nightdragon8]

the problem is that no amount of clarafiying of the ending will fix the ME1 Retcon of Vigil and really the story of ME.

[a.m.p]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

the problem is that no amount of clarafiying of the ending will fix the ME1 Retcon of Vigil and really the story of ME.

True. That's why we want more options that would allow to bypass the starchild silliness and pretend it's lying and we didn't believe it.

In other news. I've just replayed the Shroud mission (wanted to try and see the other way it ends. Couldn't shoot Mordin.)

Joker clearly says there's one destroyer on the planet. Mordin says it's a "new form of reaper, using Shroud to poison Tuchanka's atmosphere". Why would the reapers want to secretly poison Tuchanka's atmosphere if there are enough of them to occupy Tuchanka at that moment? Where are these hordes that would darken the sky of every world?

[Elyiia]

Anything can darken the sky if it's close enough, a destroyer right above you would darken the sky indeed.

I don't understand why they use a Destroyer to guard what is their only physical location (the beam). If they had 20,000 Capital ships then surely they can spare one?

Modifié par Elyiia, 28 avril 2012 - 02:00 .

[a.m.p]

Ah, so it all just depends on the point of view. Right.
This hurts me.

While we're at it, isn't there the complete game script anywhere on the internet? Not the leaked one, the real one? Or can I somehow extract it from the game files? Would really help finding who said what and when.

[Noelemahc]

You can convert the TLK file into a readable format, but it's all jumbly-jumbly, not in sequence (and for obvious reasons). It can, however let you CTRL+F whatever exact quotes from the Codex or the dialogues you may theoretically need, as well as compare language translations... just don't expect that the lines from the same dialogue, or even the same planet, will be on the same page =|

[a.m.p]

That's what I need exactly. Thanks.

Meanwhile, more fun facts from the geth dreadnaught mission:
EDI: the geth dreadnaught is 30% larger than an alliance dreadnaught.
We're never told how many of those we get when we sort out Rannoch, do we?

[Noelemahc]

I will put it online once I get home, then.

We're never told how many of those we get when we sort out Rannoch, do we?

To paraphrase the Elcor ambassador... Enough. As I've said in the "pick three options" thread, 7K EMS is a logically sound cut-off point for when the United Fleet can undoubtedly smack the Reapers, simply because to reach that high, you have to have united the Quarians and the Geth or gotten EVERY OTHER race on your side if you picked one of the two.

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

I will put it online once I get home, then.

Many, many thanks.

We're never told how many of those we get when we sort out Rannoch, do we?

To paraphrase the Elcor ambassador... Enough. As I've said in the "pick three options" thread, 7K EMS is a logically sound cut-off point for when the United Fleet can undoubtedly smack the Reapers, simply because to reach that high, you have to have united the Quarians and the Geth or gotten EVERY OTHER race on your side if you picked one of the two.

Logically, yes. *must resist making art joke*
Another interesting question is geth infrastructure and industrial capabilities. They are obviously independent of the rest of the galaxy. How fast can they make more?

[a.m.p]

And we hit 1000 votes on the main poll. So far results are these:

I hate the ending and I think this can salvage it.
55% (552 votes)

I hate the ending and I think this isn’t enough to salvage it.
39% (386 votes)

I like the ending and this wouldn’t affect my game experience.
3% (27 votes)

I like the ending and this would damage my game experience.
4% (35 votes)

[a.m.p]

Elyiia wrote...

Might be, would make sense for it to be there. Something about protecting the Citadel with the majority of the Reaper fleet or something.

Have replayed that. (God, Kai Leng is such an idiot) They don't explicitly say it. Not at that moment.
Vendetta just says that they “consolidate power around the Catalyst and protect it at all costs”.

However some other interesting things are said:
1) Vendetta: The citadel is in position. The reapers are preparing to complete  their harvest of your species.
2) Anderson: I've got a team in London. The reapers have been preparing for something here. Now we know what for.
Add to that the beam that transports people aboard the citadel and Anderson asking whether they may be making the reaper there once he gets aboard himself.

Am I the only one who thinks this implies that the citadel is a among other things the reaper-making factory that is necessary to make at least the new sovereign?

Modifié par a.m.p, 28 avril 2012 - 08:00 .

[Noelemahc]

Click!
There you go. The English version only, as it's the only one worth using for this thread. Whomping 15 megs of text unpacked!

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

Click!
There you go. The English version only, as it's the only one worth using for this thread. Whomping 15 megs of text unpacked!

Awesome. Scanning it for relevant info right now.

About the outrun 'six space squids minigame'. Checked pre-Cronos situation in the Athena nebula. No space squids in the asari home system itself, 3-4 in the other systems. I'd say we really should discount it as a silly minigame that has nothing to do with anything.

Edit: Anyway, as I am aboard the whole Turn On/Off campaign, I'm signing off until monday, at which point I may be ready with the big separate reaper numbers/strategies thread. If anyone finds something more on the subject, please drop it here and I'll include it.

Modifié par a.m.p, 28 avril 2012 - 08:04 .

[Noelemahc]

Yeah, time for me to sign off about having played for it and switch to Binary Domain. Or sleep. Sleep totally works too.

[Byronic-Knight]

a.m.p wrote...

I think all that about reaper numbers and strategies deserves its own thread. When I have the time, I'd like to compile all that we've found in one big list and post it. (probably not before monday). So we can engage the 50-billion-reapers people in enlightened and civil discussion.
Any objections?

No objections here. Great idea. 

a.m.p wrote... 

Logically, yes. *must resist making art joke*
Another interesting question is geth infrastructure and industrial capabilities. They are obviously independent of the rest of the galaxy. How fast can they make more?

 

That is an interesting question, considering they were already helping the Quarians adapt better to the atmosphere through stims and things before you even get to Earth. It would be difficult telling Tali such things would have to wait---or the focus on it at least be reduced---but I would have told them to put all (or most) of their resources into building more ships/making existing ships better/outfitting Quarian ships with better armour and weapons. 

**********

To the reference for "The majority of Reapers over Earth": 

When talking with the Prothhean VI on Cronos Station*---where he tells you the Catalyst is the Citadel and that the Citadel has been moved---he says, and I quote:

"The Reaper forces will now consolidate power around the Catalyst and protect it at all costs." 

That is about as explicit as the game gets (as far as I know) to saying verbatim "The majortiy of the Reapers are at Earth," but the VI's language is pretty damn close. 

*youtu.be/6tIdNhRV684

This also begs the question, once again, as to what happens if you turn your forces on the Citadel. Since the Reapers are protecting it---because (it's revealed later) their "brain" is there---why can't you just radio Hackett and tell them to open fire on the Citadel and/or the Crucible, or set the Crucible to self-destruct, or any combination of the two. What would happen to the Reapers if their "controler" is destroyed. 

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 29 avril 2012 - 06:39 .

[A0170]

a.m.p wrote...

On reaper numbers.
Yes, I decided to go there. I usually try to avoid that topic because it’s math based on assumptions that results in random numbers. Not in valid estimates.

But yesterday I was told that if I did the math, I’d discover there are 50 billion sovereign-class reapers, give or take.
I think this is getting a bit ridiculous. So let’s try and do the math.

First a few facts.
1)    At the moment of the crucible activation all reapers are in Milky Way. Because if that wasn’t the case, then whichever color explosion we chose would just blow up the relays without solving the reaper problem.

2)    Weeks into the war there was one little destroyer on Tuchanka. Not a reaper fleet.

3)    Months into the war there was one little destroyer on Ranncoh. Not a reaper fleet.

4)    The battle for Earth: the reapers on Earth were pressed so hard that only when the direct need arose did they send a few sov-class reapers including Harbinger to protect the single weak point of their operation – the conduit. Until then it was again a lonely destroyer. (Assuming they had a few million sov-class reapers in Sol and couldn’t be bothered to spare a couple dozen to land and stomp all over Anderson’s command post brings us back to the reapers are all morons premise).

So keeping all that in mind, let’s look at this cutscene.
Here is the biggest group shot of our reaper friends that is in the game.


It’s right before the battle begins. I took my time and counted them. It’s about a hundred. The cutscene shows there are more to the left and to the right, so let’s double that number.

200.

Let’s take into account that not necessarily all of the reapers in Sol are in that line.

Let’s double the number again. Why do I only double it and don’t consider that there are thousands more on the surface or faffing about all over the solar system? Because reapers are supposed to be effective and that line is supposed to stop the single thing in the galaxy that can kill them all. They know about the crucible.

So. 400. Give or take. Ah, hell, let’s triple it and say it’s 600.

That is all they could spare to “consolidate power around the Catalyst and protect it at all costs”. While having to maintain presence in all these places:

That’s 24 clusters besides Sol.

So where are those fifty billion sov-class reapers?

Let’s go into wild speculations area.
While I was working on my map, I found that the total amount of clusters that do appear on the map in all three games is 47. Part of those don’t have any significant population to speak of and don’t require large reaper fleets to hold.

We can assume that there are other populated clusters in the galaxy that are never mentioned and that the reapers might occupy. Let’s again triple that number of occupied clusters that are shown on the map. 72.

Round up to 80.

Considering that the reaper forces in Sol are supposed to be the biggest reaper fleet (again, because they “consolidate power around the Catalyst and protect it at all costs”), that means that all those other clusters have less than 600 reaper capital ships in them. Multiplying gives us the upper limit: 48000.

Let’s now figure out the lower limit. Let’s say just the 24 clusters that the map shows are occupied. Let’s remember Rannoch that only had one little destroyer. Let’s say it’s an average 10 sov-class reapers per cluster.
240. Plus 600 in Sol. Less than a thousand.

Let’s now try making some middle ground assumptions. Say those hypothetical 80 clusters that need to be held at this time have an average of 30 sov-class reapers.

2400. Plus 600 at Sol. 3000 total.

Edit: linked this and my other relevant posts with pictures on the first page.

An excellent and very well researched thread OP. I just had a few questions about the numbers you came up with in this post.

- I know it's wrong, but I'm curious where exactly did the 50 billion figure come from???

- Have you heard of the Leviathan of Dis theory? Basically, it argues that because the Leviathan is a billion years old, and if you account for the (rule of thumb) 50,000 year interval between each cycle, the Reapers would've reaped at least 20,000 cycles. This would've given the Reaper's at least 20,000 chances to build up there numbers. Now, we have to factor in their battle losses over the years, and that not every race harvested would've produced a Reaper.

But considering how the Reapers were able to shut down the relay network in each of the previous cycles, I feel like there battle losses would be minimal. Also, even if not every race harvested would've been "Reaper material", there would still be cycles where multiple races could've been "ascended" into Reaper form, negating that initial drawback over time. So even if we were to halve that number of 20,000, and I'm using an absolute "lowball" number here, that's still at least 10,000 Reapers created.

I know, the game's highly inconsistent on this matter. And the cutscenes seem to imply a much lower figure. So what are your thoughts on this?

Modifié par A0170, 29 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[a.m.p]

And I’m back.

@ A0170
I’m sorry for taking long to answer – was offline as part of the Turn On/Off campaign.
Thanks for coming by.

1)    About fifty billion – I didn’t ask. It wasn’t the point of the thread. If you’re really interested, the post is there: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11668806/11#11697962

2)    About the Leviathan. I know about that theory. It was brought up and argued about at least each 5 pages of this thread. It is what I was referring to when talking about random assumptions and speculations giving random numbers. We have zero infaromation about what was going on in the previous cycles. For all we know the entire reaper fleet might have been nearly wiped out multiple times. We can only guess. Guesses don’t give valid approximates. I am currently in the process of formatting my new big thread on the topic, I'll have a more thorough look at the Leviathan there.

My main point is that there are as many reapers as the plot requires. If the writers change their mind and decide to allow us to win conventionally after all that would contradict no previously established facts.

Modifié par a.m.p, 30 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[A0170]

a.m.p wrote...

And I’m back.

@ A0170
I’m sorry for taking long to answer – was offline as part of the Turn On/Off campaign.
Thanks for coming by.

1)    About fifty billion – I didn’t ask. It wasn’t the point of the thread. If you’re really interested, the post is there: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11668806/11#11697962

2)    About the Leviathan. I know about that theory. It was brought up and argued about at least each 5 pages of this thread. It is what I was referring to when talking about random assumptions and speculations giving random numbers. We have zero infaromation about what was going on in the previous cycles. For all we know the entire reaper fleet might have been nearly wiped out multiple times. We can only guess. Guesses don’t give valid approximates. I am currently in the process of formatting my new big thread on the topic, I'll have a more thorough look at the Leviathan there.

My main point is that there are as many reapers as the plot requires. If the writers change their mind and decide to allow us to win conventionally after all that would contradict no previously established facts.

No worries. 

1.) Thanks for the link. I'll definitely check it out. The figure of 50 billion Reapers just seems way too much to be allowed for storywise.

2.) Ah, great point. I agree that we really can't know for certain unless the writers outright comfirm an exact figure. Also this new big thread of yours sounds interesting. If it'd help, I posted a thread awhile ago stating why the Codex doesn't allow for us to win conventionally against the Reapers. Feel free to look at it if you think it might help you. The link's in my sig. Thanks again for the excellent read!

[Zolt51]

Bumping this thread again... really really Bioware, please do this. I need to see this.

BUT, a webcam is mandatory to activate this option.

Then when the whole fleet gets torn a new one by the Reapers and Hackett yells *Shepard, WTF have you done?* before his ship explodes, a picture of your face is taken and posted on BSN

Priceless!

[a.m.p]

A0170 wrote...

No worries. 

1.) Thanks for the link. I'll definitely check it out. The figure of 50 billion Reapers just seems way too much to be allowed for storywise.

2.) Ah, great point. I agree that we really can't know for certain unless the writers outright comfirm an exact figure. Also this new big thread of yours sounds interesting. If it'd help, I posted a thread awhile ago stating why the Codex doesn't allow for us to win conventionally against the Reapers. Feel free to look at it if you think it might help you. The link's in my sig. Thanks again for the excellent read!

Looked at your own reaper numbers thread, used some of the info in mine, credited you. Thanks.
Actually, with your permission going to drop all that into "discussing conventional means" part of my page one list.


The new thread is here:social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11762127/1

Modifié par a.m.p, 30 avril 2012 - 09:28 .

[Zolt51]

a.m.p wrote...

And we hit 1000 votes on the main poll. So far results are these:

I hate the ending and I think this can salvage it.
55% (552 votes)

I hate the ending and I think this isn’t enough to salvage it.
39% (386 votes)

I like the ending and this wouldn’t affect my game experience.
3% (27 votes)

I like the ending and this would damage my game experience.
4% (35 votes)

So much hatred, so little loving.

Modifié par Zolt51, 30 avril 2012 - 11:51 .

[A0170]

a.m.p wrote...

A0170 wrote...

No worries. 

1.) Thanks for the link. I'll definitely check it out. The figure of 50 billion Reapers just seems way too much to be allowed for storywise.

2.) Ah, great point. I agree that we really can't know for certain unless the writers outright comfirm an exact figure. Also this new big thread of yours sounds interesting. If it'd help, I posted a thread awhile ago stating why the Codex doesn't allow for us to win conventionally against the Reapers. Feel free to look at it if you think it might help you. The link's in my sig. Thanks again for the excellent read!

Looked at your own reaper numbers thread, used some of the info in mine, credited you. Thanks.
Actually, with your permission going to drop all that into "discussing conventional means" part of my page one list.


The new thread is here:social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/11762127/1

Absolutely! Take whatever you need. And thanks for the link, can't wait to check it out.