913 réponses à ce sujet

[Elyiia]

I'd love to see an analysis of the strength of the Geth fleet from you Raynulf.

[a.m.p]

@lillitheris
I keep wanting to go over every little piece of info on the fleets there is, but can't find the time, so I'll redirect you to Yet Another Awesome Post from Raynulf right below yours.
And I want your thread on my list.

@Raynulf.
That is a lot of boom spread over a lot of ships that have to be shot down one by one.
And then we get to the part where reapers cannot really replenish their losses, while the galaxy arguably can and should.

Wouldn't it be awesome if instead of protecting random meaningless maps from cerberus, we would be stopping them from sabotaging crucial galactic industrial facilities and would actually see for ourselves the ships in construction and production lines assembling fighters?

And a tangentially related question. The reaper upgrades for the geth showed up only in ME3, right? We have no indication that the heretics at the citadel were similarly upgraded?

Modifié par a.m.p, 14 mai 2012 - 07:23 .

[Elyiia]

a.m.p wrote...

@lillitheris
I keep wanting to go over every little piece of info on the fleets there is, but can't find the time, so I'll redirect you to Yet Another Awesome Post from Raynulf right below yours.
And I want your thread on my list.

@Raynulf.
That is a lot of boom spread over a lot of ships that have to be shot down one by one.
And then we get to the part where reapers cannot really replenish their losses, while the galaxy arguably can and should.

Wouldn't it be awesome if instead of protecting random meaningless maps from cerberus, we would be stopping them from sabotaging crucial galactic industrial facilities and would actually see for ourselves the ships in construction and production lines assembling fighters?

And a tangentially related question. The reaper upgrades for the geth showed up only in ME3, right? We have no indication that the heretics at the citadel were similarly upgraded?

Logically, they can't be upgraded in ME1. It requires Shepard to go in and destroy the Reaper code, it couldn't simply be re-written like you can do with the heretics.

[a.m.p]

Elyiia wrote...

Logically, they can't be upgraded in ME1. It requires Shepard to go in and destroy the Reaper code, it couldn't simply be re-written like you can do with the heretics.

Good point. Though it could have been just the geth partaking in the battle. I mostly mean -I didn't miss another retcon that says that geth aren't actually all that strong, did I?

[Elyiia]

a.m.p wrote...

Elyiia wrote...

Logically, they can't be upgraded in ME1. It requires Shepard to go in and destroy the Reaper code, it couldn't simply be re-written like you can do with the heretics.

Good point. Though it could have been just the geth partaking in the battle. I mostly mean -I didn't miss another retcon that says that geth aren't actually all that strong, did I?

I also think Legion would have mentioned something if the heretics had Reaper code.

[Noelemahc]

Raynulf wrote...

The crucible plot arc was asinine and poorly implemented, however for better or worse they did implement it: But they never actually explained what it did, because no one knew - it was all a big mystery.

What I would love them to do is make it re-establish the cosmic horror of the reapers by having it be a trap. A failsafe against organics who didn't fall for the citadel ploy, who would build it in the hope of having a magic weapon to fight the reapers with minimal casualties, and instead would cause their doom. Shepard's role is then discovering its true purpose and turning it on the reapers themselves - preferably by using it as a giant bomb (Michael Bay has a point).

Presently, the entire existance of the crucible and its application in the plot hinges on both the reapers and current civilisation being morons. So yes, there would be much love for an 'out'
 

I would argue that it doesn't even necessitate a rewrite, as, discounting the actual RGB cutscenes, the Crucible fulfils the "trap" role to a whomping 124%. As people have argued endlessly in the various endinging threads, picking Synthesis lets the Reapers win, because their mission isn't canceled. It is COMPLETED. Das' roit, because if there are no more organics in the universe - and thanks to Sheppy Shep, there ARE no more organics - the Reapers have, in a roundabout machine logic way, accomplished their goal. Or failed utterly at it, as in order to make way for the synthesized synthetics the Crucible magics up, all organic life is essentially destroyed. Make of that what you will.

What I would have loved them to do to reestablish the Cosmic Horror of the Reapers would be let Shepard enter the Reaper Consensus like he did the Geth one (because if the server mission didn't feel like foreshadowing/VR tutorial to you, I don't know what else in the entire game could count as foreshadowing) and experience the way their minds function firsthand. Maybe fight the Harbinger boss fight that way. But I promised I won't get on the cyberwarfare horse again, at least not in this thread, so maybe I should go start a new one once I've compiled more stuffs for it.

[Byronic-Knight]

Noelemahc wrote...

What I would have loved them to do to reestablish the Cosmic Horror of the Reapers would be let Shepard enter the Reaper Consensus like he did the Geth one (because if the server mission didn't feel like foreshadowing/VR tutorial to you, I don't know what else in the entire game could count as foreshadowing) and experience the way their minds function firsthand. Maybe fight the Harbinger boss fight that way. But I promised I won't get on the cyberwarfare horse again, at least not in this thread, so maybe I should go start a new one once I've compiled more stuffs for it.

O.O

That would be interesting. 

[Raynulf]

The problem with the Geth and the Quarians is that it is very hard to find a basis for measurement. So a lot of this is based on extrapolating from cutscenes and codex entries.

Geth fleets comprise of 5,000 to 10,000 craft varying from dreadnoughts (of which we only ever see 1) to fighters.

The Migrant Fleet comprises of 50,000 craft of varying types, most of which were partly militarised for the war against the Geth.

The cutscenes, however, show two types of Geth: Big bugs and little bugs, and two types of Quarian ships: Liveships and "all the others". They also show them using "middle of the action" camera positions, which hints at enormous numbers without showing them - you typically see between 100 and 300 onscreen at a time.


By the time we get to Earth:

Looking at the previous numbers, lets assume there is a "cutscene factor" for the big battles - a certain percentage they can actually show on screen without breaking the cinematics budget, cluttering the screen or zooming so far back nothing is distinguishable.

Ignoring the Citadel battle retcon, the Alliance fleets were down ~25% in total, giving them around the 750 cruiser mark, with around 150 appearing on camera in both fleets, for a "Cutscene Factor" of around 5 - as in for every ship you see, there are 4 more you don't.

At Rannoch, we saw about 300 of each on camera. Cool. x5 = 1500 cruisers each. Assuming they send half to Earth, that puts the quarians on par in numbers to alliance ships... which is what we see. We can assume the Geth are as well. Let's pretend neither want to send frigates and be done with it.

We also see comparible numbers of Turian ships, who despite their zillions earlier, either have lost 80%, or simply not sent anymore. So about 750 of them too, and 1500 frigates. They never got Dreadnought models, so we don't see any. But lets say they send 20% of them - 8. Not too shabby.

Asari never got cruiser models so we don't see any... but they did send 4 dreadnoughts (25%), so it's reasonable to assume we do get (but like the Geth, we don't see) 25% of their other ships too. Another 400 cruisers, 800 frigates

Pretending the Salarians actually did send ships (they had none modelled, so we don't get to see), in the order of 50% of their available as they're not under attack themselves: +8 dreadnoughts, +650 cruisers, +1300 frigates.


Let's do a quick tally:
Dreadnoughts: 45 (ish, including ~50% of the Geth ones - thanks to Elyiia )
Cruisers: 4050
Frigates: 5100

By ignoring any Geth/Quarian frigates, all should be equipped with Thanix cannons, meaning that the combined firepower is around: 
A) 4665 dreadnoughts, using conventional physics
 2445 dreadnoughts, using hollywood physics.

Now, reapers don't build cruisers at all: They're either dreadnoughts or destroyers, who at 160 meters weigh in as... frigates. But, as the Thanix is just a reaper gun we made, they can still pack the punch of a conventional cruiser.

Okay. So we "See" on camera about 100 reaper capital ships. Applying the same x5 factor, that's 500 of them, plus 1000 Destroyers (assuming they have a 2:1 ratio and actually join in the fight).

Given the inconsistency in firepower needed to own a destroyer (the cutscenes indicate it isn't much - the Quarian fleet couldn't fire at max velocity without vaporising Shepard and his oh-so-vital targetting laser), lets just look at the capital ships.

We need 4 x 500 = 2000 dreadnoughts of boom.

Conveniently, we have at that. We also have the advantage of numbers and comparable fire rates, making the battle actually less wearing on us.

Modifié par Raynulf, 14 mai 2012 - 09:00 .

[Raynulf]

a.m.p wrote...
Wouldn't it be awesome if instead of protecting random meaningless maps from cerberus, we would be stopping them from sabotaging crucial galactic industrial facilities and would actually see for ourselves the ships in construction and production lines assembling fighters?

Yes it would.

Personally, I'd vote for frigates with Thanix cannons for excellent back-for-buck while still having a ship that can operate autonomously without requiring carrier support

[Elyiia]

We're told, via the Codex, that Geth have approximately as many Dreadnoughts as the Turians did pre-Reapers.

-1 because of Quarian stupidity

[Noelemahc]

Raynulf wrote...

a.m.p wrote...
Wouldn't it be awesome if instead of protecting random meaningless maps from cerberus, we would be stopping them from sabotaging crucial galactic industrial facilities and would actually see for ourselves the ships in construction and production lines assembling fighters?

Yes it would.

Personally, I'd vote for frigates with Thanix cannons for excellent back-for-buck while still having a ship that can operate autonomously without requiring carrier support

I'm thinking they wanted to do it (and if they didn't, they should say they did to save face), but BUDGET CONSTRAINTS. Because, seriously, they showed they can design cool fight-in-the-middle-of-a-mechanical-monstrosity thing, with the Geth Dreadnaught and the docks in Miranda's loyalty mission, and the factory in Zaeed's. Would'a been cool to have it =(

Byronic-Knight wrote...

O.O

That would be interesting. 

Yep. Anyone who ever played either System Shock (or, in fact, ME2 Overlord, as it borrows heavily from them) could tell you it would be. Better yet, you can retain all the dialogue Shep has with the Starchild -- just with Harbinger, at the Core of the Crucible's CPU, and the crap you see at the game's existing ending? -- it's all VR, it's a vague representation by approximation, like in the Geth Consensus, so it's suddenly SENSIBLE that Destroy is shooting at a buncha tubes, Control is grabbing live wires and Synthesis is jumping into a searing laser beam.

And the crap we see happening to Shepard's body is actually happening to his MIND, and all that fauxshadowing we've had about Shepard-the-Advanced-VI (coupled with the dialogue about Huerta's brain in the hospital), and the way regrowing lost limbs (again, in Huerta) works in the MEverse -- they all can come into play as Shep, or whatever's left of her, lies in a hospital post-facto.

I'm amazed nobody thought of this before.

[Elyiia]

Noelemahc wrote...

Yep. Anyone who ever played either System Shock (or, in fact, ME2 Overlord, as it borrows heavily from them) could tell you it would be. Better yet, you can retain all the dialogue Shep has with the Starchild -- just with Harbinger, at the Core of the Crucible's CPU, and the crap you see at the game's existing ending? -- it's all VR, it's a vague representation by approximation, like in the Geth Consensus, so it's suddenly SENSIBLE that Destroy is shooting at a buncha tubes, Control is grabbing live wires and Synthesis is jumping into a searing laser beam.

And the crap we see happening to Shepard's body is actually happening to his MIND, and all that fauxshadowing we've had about Shepard-the-Advanced-VI (coupled with the dialogue about Huerta's brain in the hospital), and the way regrowing lost limbs (again, in Huerta) works in the MEverse -- they all can come into play as Shep, or whatever's left of her, lies in a hospital post-facto.

I'm amazed nobody thought of this before.

Would be cool that if entering the conduit causes Shepard to enter the "Reaper consensus" having to fight your way to the Catalyst.

You could have the choice you pick actually be the option of what the crucible does. Destroy cripples their sheilds and weapons. Control cripples their shields and mobility. Synthesis cripples shields, weapons and mobility making it the best option. Your EMS then determines the effectiveness and whether you win or not.

Then you can see the fleets in action, Shepard is unconcious on the Citadel control room, and depending on your EMS dies before help can arrive or is saved.

[Noelemahc]

And it's all timed because:
A) The Reapers might mop the fleet up
The Reapers are shooting at the Crucible as they fear the Shepard
C) The Shepard is still bleeding out

They get to keep their shoddy dialogue and autistic integrity, but it's overlaid on top of shooty-shooting gameplay in Alien Geometries to explain why Shepard cannot make longer, coherenter, answers, and they get a perfectly good reason for why the Crucible options look so damn weird and illogical.

Gotta add this to the pile of "this might have been a better ending" ideas. This is #8 already, I think.

[Elyiia]

It would work more like Overload than the Geth consensus in that he's actually moving through the Citadel as well as the Reaper consensus at the same time.

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...
Gotta add this to the pile of "this might have been a better ending" ideas. This is #8 already, I think.

I'm pretty sure something much like this (the ending being a trip into the reaper consensus) was proposed as a theory much like the IT at some point.

Still, you're right. The means to activate the endings are several orders of magnitude more metaphorical than anything pretending to be real should be allowed to be. Giving an actual reason for why they are metaphorical would at least answer the perpetual question of why am I shooting this tube.

Meanwhile I keep thinking about that other "no to the catalyst" option that is sometimes proposed. Redesigning destroy into a proper "no". Am I the only one here who thinks that properly balancing it against the rest would be much harder than for a conventional "no"?

Modifié par a.m.p, 14 mai 2012 - 12:49 .

[Noelemahc]

Meanwhile I keep thinking about that other "no to the catalyst" option that is sometimes proposed. Redesigning destroy into a proper "no". Am I the only one here who thinks that properly balancing it against the rest would be much harder than for a conventional "no"?

You mean "screw you, I'm turning the Crucible into a megabomb rather than let you use me to further your goals by replacing you with myself or turning everyone into a nanomechanical cyborg, you imaginary enemy, you"?

It's not that hard to balance in terms of not being cheery, the hard part is making it something other than a galactic extinction event AND justifying why the Reapers would suffer from it, as it suffers the same issues as the "blowing the Citadel up by conventional means" idea - no Crucible activation means no space magic, and no space magic means no auto-win against Reaper holdover forces in other regions of space, unless we write in a complete and utter dependance of Reaper well-being on the Catalyst's well-being.

[a.m.p]

Noelemahc wrote...

Meanwhile I keep thinking about that other "no to the catalyst" option that is sometimes proposed. Redesigning destroy into a proper "no". Am I the only one here who thinks that properly balancing it against the rest would be much harder than for a conventional "no"?

You mean "screw you, I'm turning the Crucible into a megabomb rather than let you use me to further your goals by replacing you with myself or turning everyone into a nanomechanical cyborg, you imaginary enemy, you"?

It's not that hard to balance in terms of not being cheery, the hard part is making it something other than a galactic extinction event AND justifying why the Reapers would suffer from it, as it suffers the same issues as the "blowing the Citadel up by conventional means" idea - no Crucible activation means no space magic, and no space magic means no auto-win against Reaper holdover forces in other regions of space, unless we write in a complete and utter dependance of Reaper well-being on the Catalyst's well-being.

Not that much redesign.
More along the lines of destroy being one of the crucible's fuctions, but one that the catalyst would first try to hide and then loudly object to. An explanation might be along these lines - the crucible was a reaper device, but some obnoxious prior civilization not far down the line, maybe even the protheans themselves or the Ilos statues people, found that out and managed to repurpose it to kill reapers with nasty side effects for all reaper tech.

The way to activate that option would be not shooting a tube, it would be discovered by Shepard, rather than offered by the catalyst, it would be actively opposed by the catalyst and picking it would include something along that deadspace line that you mentioned in your thread.

If destroy was actually meant to be rejecting starchild, as people keep telling me, that could be called a clarification.But let's assume we don't want to make one option objectively better, so that everyone would choose it.
Then the options become:

1) Catalyst's idea how to use the crucible, reapers stopped
2) Catalyst's other idea how to use the crucible, reapers stopped
3) Shepard's idea how to use the crucible, reapers stopped

Wouldn't that in itself, regardless of price, automatically make everyone except for maybe hardcore synthesis entusiasts and people who can not stand the idea of killing geth/EDI see it as the best option?

Whereas a conventional "no" would make for the following options:
1) Catalyst's idea how to use the crucible, reapers stopped
2) Catalyst's second idea how to use the crucible, reapers stopped
3) Catalyst's third idea how to use the crucible, reapers stopped
4) Shepard's idea not to use the crucible, reapers... stopped?

Modifié par a.m.p, 14 mai 2012 - 04:03 .

[a.m.p]

@Raynulf
Would you be willing to make a separate thread with your numbers/firepower estimates when you have the time? It definitely deserves one and it would be much more convenient to discuss and link in other discussions.

[Raynulf]

Take 3. Or 5. Or whatever.

Assumptions: (There are many)
1) The figures and tactics stated in the codex are valid for Alliance vessels.
2) The ships shown in the cutscenes are representative (i.e. proportional to one another and 'typical' for the represented faction).
3) Geth ships, despite their small size, pack sufficient firepower to overwhelm an Alliance or Turian cruiser's barriers in 1-2 shots (Battle for the Citadel). The requisite scaling factor (Power vs Tonnage) can then be applied to all cruisers.
4) Turian cruisers, despite their smaller size, are on par with Alliance cruisers by virtue of having technology millennia ahead of the Alliance. This factor can then by applied to all ships.
5) When referencing "size", with the exception of the SR2, it refers to tonnage and thus power generation.
6) The Destiny Ascendant is not overly exceptional for an asari dreadnought, and is primarilly wider than an Alliance, but the same length (and same barrel length).
7) Shield strength is proportional to power generation and power generation is proportional to ship mass. Bigger ship = bigger shields.
8) A 5-Frigate "wolf pack" with missiles can overwhelm the shields of a cruiser (alliance), indicating torpedo run effectiveness.
9) Mass Accelerator damage scales with barrel length (kinetic energy = 1/2 m v^2, v is proportional to the square root of barrel length, thus, effectively linear scaling) and with slug mass. Slug mass scales in turn with the power core of the ship (and thus its mass).
10) Thanix weapons are only used on Alliance/Turian/Asari/Salarian frigates, raising their firepower by the same factor as getting an Alliance frigate on par with an Alliance cruiser.
11) Fighters are ignored for the sake of lessening my brainhurt.
12) Races who don't have ships shown (e.g. Asari frigates, salarian ships of any kind etc) will have proportionately similar numbers
13) The Citadel and 5th fleet shown in mass effect 1 are typical for organic races, plus additional patrol craft to make an average of 75 cruisers and 150 frigates per dreadnought. The exception being the Asari, who have fewer smaller craft- say 10 cruisers and 20 frigates per dreadnought.
14) My "eyeballed" ship sizes are vaguely close to what is intended in the game.
15) All comparisons are against an Alliance Dreadnought (AD) in terms of mass, weapon damage and shields.
16) Per the Codex, 4 Alliance Dreadnoughts will pwn a Sovereign class reaper in minimal time when focusing fire.
17) An Alliance carrier is about as effective as an Alliance dreadnought.
18) Quarians...  I am guessing. But putting them on par with Alliance tech - better knowledge, fewer resources to implement.
19) Reapers core size vs mass should be at least triple that of an Alliance cruiser (to suit their triple FTL speed). Will apply this same factor to weapon damage.

Observations
The Alliance make big cruisers and small dreadnoughts. Likely due to their tech sucking horribly and restrictions placed on them by the Council regarding military development.

Asari ships are grotesquely superior due to simply being massive. Hence culling the numbers to put them under the Turians in terms of overall firepower. At least if Mass Effect 1 is to be believed.

Alliance frigates are tiny. Seriously. Watch the battle for the citadel - all those specs? They're actually the same size as the Normandy when they get close to each other. They're frigates and they are damn, damn small.

Ship Sizes & Stats - Pre-War
Asari Dreadnought (21): Length = 1000m. Mass = 4 ADM. Barriers = 6.3 ADB. Main Gun = 6.3 ADG
Asari Cruiser (210): Length = 600m. Mass = 0.865 ADM. Barriers = 1.37 ADB. Main Gun = 0.82 ADG
Asari Frigate (420): Length = 50m. Mass = Minimal. Barriers = Minimal. Thanix = 0.011 ADG

Alliance Dreadnought (12): Length = 1000m. Mass = 1 ADM. Barriers = 1 ADB. Main Gun = 1 ADG
Alliance Cruiser (900): Length = 600m. Mass = 0.22 ADM. Barriers = 0.22 ADB. Main Gun = 0.13 ADG
Alliance Frigate (1800): Length = 50m. Mass = Minimal. Barriers = Minimal. Thanix = 0.0072 ADG

Turian Dreadnought (36): Length = 1000m. Mass = 1 ADM. Barriers = 1.6 ADB. Main Gun = 1.6 ADG
Turian Cruiser (2700): Length = 500m. Mass = 0.19 ADM. Barriers = 0.3 ADB. Main Gun = 0.14 ADG
Turian Frigate (5400): Length = 50m. Mass = Minimal. Barriers = Minimal. Thanix = 0.11 ADG

Salarian Dreadnought (16): Length = 1000m. Mass = 1 ADM. Barriers = 1.6 ADB. Main Gun = 1.6 ADG
Salarian Cruiser (1200): Length = 500m. Mass = 0.19 ADM. Barriers = 0.3 ADB. Main Gun = 0.14 ADG
Salarian Frigate (2400): Length = 50m. Mass = Minimal. Barriers = Minimal. Thanix = 0.11 ADG

Quarian Dreadnought (3): Length = 1000m. Mass = 1 ADM. Barriers = 1 ADB. Main Gun = 1 ADG
Quarian Cruiser (1000): Length = 500m. Mass = 0.125 ADM. Barriers = 0.125 ADB. Main Gun = 0.0625 ADG

Geth Dreadnought (35): Length = 1091m. Mass = 1.3 ADM. Barriers = 3 ADB. Main Gun = 3.2 ADG
Geth Cruiser (2625): Length = 250m. Mass = 0.016 ADM. Barriers = 0.078 ADB. Main Gun = 0.019 ADG

Reaper Capital Ship (???): Length = 2000m. Mass = 8 ADM. Barriers = 24 ADB. Main Gun = 40 ADG
Reaper Destroyer (???): Length = 160m. Mass = 0.016 ADM. Barriers = 0.078 ADB. Main Gun = 0.0019 ADG

Now: 4AD beast reaper barriers, thus, 1 ADG = 6 ADM worth of barriers. Cool.

Sanity Check
A) During the battle of the Citadel, at least half a dozen Geth cruisers fired continuously at the Destiny Ascension without it going splat. Let's compare: 6 cruisers x 6 (damage/barrier) x 0.0195 ADG = 0.7 ADM of barrier damage per barrage. The Destiny Ascension with its 6.3 barrier strength means it can eat 9 salvos of that (plus shield regen).

Consistent with cutscene? Check.

 Now this is Main Guns Only. Broadside guns for most organic ships are around 40% of ship length. "Tentacle rays" for reapers are actually much, much shorter - in the order of 100m or so - and if their damage scales appropriately, this means they could one-shot any cruiser around, but a dreadnought would likely take a couple of hits.

Consistency with cutscene? Check.

All cruisers can merilly one-shot or two-shot each other (again, consistent with cutscenes) and we aren't looking too shabby.


So... Fighting the Reapers
- Reapers can fire every second with with their tentacle guns (which have very short range) and once per 5 seconds or so with their main guns (the cutscenes never show them firing both at once).
- Thanix frigates can fire once per 5 seconds.
- Organic cap ships can fire once per 3 seconds.

Following basic tactics of: Fighters of each side engage each other. Frigates close in fast (can't be hit by main guns) while main line follows from the rear. Reapers must then either try to tentacle frigates, or main gun the far away cruisers (did I mention "Far away", as in - not closing to point blank. No one needs to be driven closer to hit anyone with their sword). Also: With their superior range, Dreadnoughts stay at the back.

Assuming a 50/50 split, and the tentacles (which are regularly dodged) have a 50% miss rate on frigates, and starting combat simulation with everyone in optimum firing position.

The united fleet vs 600 capital ship reapers:
Combat Duration: 4 seconds.
Reaper Casualties: 100% (600)
Dreadnought Casualties: 0% (0)
Cruiser Casualties: 0% (0)
Frigate Casualties: 3.1% (417)

Huh? You may ask. Simple. FTL frigates into firing range of the reapers, and the fleet into firing range of the reapers and shoot first.

The united fleet vs 2000 capital ship reapers:
Combat Duration: 7 seconds.
Reaper Casualties: 100% (2000)
Dreadnought Casualties: 0% (0)
Cruiser Casualties: 17% (1460)
Frigate Casualties: 15% (2023)

Okay. So how about 4000 capital reapers?
Combat Duration: 12 seconds.
Reaper Casualties: 100% (4000)
Dreadnought Casualties: 0% (0)
Cruiser Casualties: 91% (7885)
Frigate Casualties: 41% (5605)

Hmm. 5000 reapers?
Combat Duration: 19 seconds.
Reaper Casualties: 82% (4101)
Dreadnought Casualties: 100% (123)
Cruiser Casualties: 100% (8635)
Frigate Casualties: 100% (13645)

There we go.

Of course, this entire thing hinges on the cutscenes being representative of ship durability vs ship damage. Oh. And both sides lining up like idiots and shooting at each other...

Edit: @amp sure! (The above took a while to type - so I missed your request. I'll take this out of this thread after getting some sleep and being mocked by my wife for crunching ME ship numbers for 2 hours )

Modifié par Raynulf, 15 mai 2012 - 09:16 .

[Noelemahc]

Ooooh, pretty numbahs. Mesa loffs pretty numbahs.

On a more serious note, that's interesting stuff you got there. May I ask how you calculated the entire thing? How did you handle the 50% probability of dodge chance? RNG, dice rolls, or something else?

I'll take this out of this thread after getting some sleep and being mocked by my wife for crunching ME ship numbers for 2 hours

How is Mrs. Raynulf doing, by the way? How's her arm?

[a.m.p]

Raynulf wrote...

Edit: @amp sure! (The above took a while to type - so I missed your request. I'll take this out of this thread after getting some sleep and being mocked by my wife for crunching ME ship numbers for 2 hours )

I didn't mean in the sense of getting it out of this thread, I meant in the sense of putting it all together in one glorious wall of text and posting separately for everyone to see .

As for the latest numbers, this is getting interesting. I never really considered analyzing cutscenes that deeply because they very obviously wanted to show unbeatable reapers at the expense of common sense, but turns out if we really dig into cutscenes reapers become even less unbeatable. Hm.

One minor suggestion. I'd use different acronyms for guns and barriers, something like ADG and ADB, to avoid confusion.

Also, I'm not sure about reaper main gun being 3.2 AD. Typo? They are after all beams of doom that are supposed to tear through anything and have been established (codex) to have a longer range than anything we have (dreadnaughts included).

Anyway, I like where this is going.

[Joolazoo]

Noelemahc wrote...

Raynulf wrote...

The crucible plot arc was asinine and poorly implemented, however for better or worse they did implement it: But they never actually explained what it did, because no one knew - it was all a big mystery.

What I would love them to do is make it re-establish the cosmic horror of the reapers by having it be a trap. A failsafe against organics who didn't fall for the citadel ploy, who would build it in the hope of having a magic weapon to fight the reapers with minimal casualties, and instead would cause their doom. Shepard's role is then discovering its true purpose and turning it on the reapers themselves - preferably by using it as a giant bomb (Michael Bay has a point).

Presently, the entire existance of the crucible and its application in the plot hinges on both the reapers and current civilisation being morons. So yes, there would be much love for an 'out'
 

I would argue that it doesn't even necessitate a rewrite, as, discounting the actual RGB cutscenes, the Crucible fulfils the "trap" role to a whomping 124%. As people have argued endlessly in the various endinging threads, picking Synthesis lets the Reapers win, because their mission isn't canceled. It is COMPLETED. Das' roit, because if there are no more organics in the universe - and thanks to Sheppy Shep, there ARE no more organics - the Reapers have, in a roundabout machine logic way, accomplished their goal. Or failed utterly at it, as in order to make way for the synthesized synthetics the Crucible magics up, all organic life is essentially destroyed. Make of that what you will.

What I would have loved them to do to reestablish the Cosmic Horror of the Reapers would be let Shepard enter the Reaper Consensus like he did the Geth one (because if the server mission didn't feel like foreshadowing/VR tutorial to you, I don't know what else in the entire game could count as foreshadowing) and experience the way their minds function firsthand. Maybe fight the Harbinger boss fight that way. But I promised I won't get on the cyberwarfare horse again, at least not in this thread, so maybe I should go start a new one once I've compiled more stuffs for it.

No problem with reestablishing the cosmic horror....but the geth mission was easily one of the most boring missions in the entire game...if this ever happened I'd hope they'd change it up quite a bit because honestly I'd put my controller down before I go around shooting orange squares for half an hour again.

[a.m.p]

Joolazoo wrote...
No problem with reestablishing the cosmic horror....but the geth mission was easily one of the most boring missions in the entire game...if this ever happened I'd hope they'd change it up quite a bit because honestly I'd put my controller down before I go around shooting orange squares for half an hour again.

And if it was more like Overlord and less like shooting orange squares?

[Noelemahc]

if this ever happened I'd hope they'd change it up quite a bit because honestly I'd put my controller down before I go around shooting orange squares for half an hour again.

No, I was quite seriously considering either a Dead Space 2 style outcome (alien geometries with altered reiterations of existing opponents fighting Shepard), or a System Shock one (both games end with the cyberspace bleeding into reality, blending the protagonist's percertion of the world and uniting the cyberspace and realspace combat mechanics). Either way, it's supposed to be shooty and cover-based, but less stationery than the ME2 boss battle.

And if it was more like Overlord and less like shooting orange squares?

My point exactly. Orange squares wouldn't factor into it because you wouldn't be reducing Reaper code in Geth Consensus, you'd be SURROUNDED by Reaper code. Think Overlord meets Collector Base, but you're constricted to that dinky raygun Legion coded for you against the Reaper anti-virals (which should totally look like and function like Scions and Praetorians, mwahaha), with EDI, Tali or Daro'Xen if Tali's dead and Xen is not, or a Geth Prime if you eradicated the Quarians, joining you as squaddies as you cyber-duke-it-out with the Reaper programs.

[Raynulf]

a.m.p wrote...

As for the latest numbers, this is getting interesting. I never really considered analyzing cutscenes that deeply because they very obviously wanted to show unbeatable reapers at the expense of common sense, but turns out if we really dig into cutscenes reapers become even less unbeatable. Hm.

Oh. The way cutscenes pan out, just about everything is really, really fragile - which is probably why giant pitched battles aren't usually how run things.

a.m.p wrote...

One minor suggestion. I'd use different acronyms for guns and barriers, something like ADG and ADB, to avoid confusion.

Good point

a.m.p wrote...

Also, I'm not sure about reaper main gun being 3.2 AD. Typo?

Oh yes. Typo. I was cut and pasting (in the post, not in the spreadsheet of doom) and forgot to update it.

It's meant to be 40

As for the "simulation" numbers, I didn't feel like coding it, so just ran it in an extensive spreadsheet to look at damage and losses each second, and kept going till it was over. Again - combat duration is disturbingly short, but the simulation was assuming that it was one giant slugfest with 100% of each side shooting at each other

Modifié par Raynulf, 15 mai 2012 - 09:16 .