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[Raynulf]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12076415#12076415

Ended up expanding on it a bit more in the above thread

The numbers will vary from iteration to iteration, simply because they are rather fluid: It's more about order of magnitude than anything else.

The crux being that as capital reapers are unlikely to exceed the 5000 mark (given what we see in the game - which is the same basis for allied numbers), then a united galaxy can win a conventional war, and it all boils down to strategy and tactics: Avoiding fights you will lose and concentrating your forces against smaller numbers of reapers.

And that then explains some of the reapers strategy: 
1) Break Batarian hegemony, destroying their fleets and setting the harvesting going on their homeworld.

2) Advance on Earth and Palaven to break the primary production centers for the two most militant of council races, relying on the self-interest of the other races not to get involved.

Where it falls down is moving on Thessia and getting Asari fully committed prior to either the Turians or Alliance being properly broken. One could assume this was due to the actions of Shepard in uniting the races and wanting to make sure Thessia was in no state to provide logistic support in the war.

Noelemahc wrote...

How is Mrs. Raynulf doing, by the way? How's her arm?

Good! Her arm is mostly back to normal now, just a little stiff from time to time

Now she's just pulling her hair out trying to get everything done for her exhibition in June.

Modifié par Raynulf, 16 mai 2012 - 08:36 .

[the slynx]

I'm going to go ahead and bump this thread for the sake of anyone who hasn't seen it.

[Noelemahc]

Good bump. a.m.p. is missing and I'm afraid I'm not much help with putting out new stuff =(

[a.m.p]

I'm not missing, I'm just having a very busy week.

Thanks for the bumps, though I think whatever impact all this may or may not have had, it had by now.

So I guess we just have to go back to waiting and speculating about what happens to actual husks in the synthesis ending.

Still, if anyone bumps into new relevant threads on the topic, I'll add them to the list.

[Orumon]

Bumping again.

[Byronic-Knight]

 Hello again. 

Just stopping by to give a quick (very important) note. Feel free to use it in any future discussions on this topic.

Playing through ME2 for references, and just finished unshackling EDI. 

When you talk to her, and say "Let’s talk about you," she reveals something that is fairly revelatory in regard to a potential (semi-) conventional victory: 

<EDI> "I have also gained access to anti-Reaper cyberwarfare algorithms recovered by Cerberus."

<Shepard> "The Reapers are millions of years more advanced than us. How can you affect them?"

<EDI> "It appears that my design includes hardware recovered from the wreckage of Sovereign. These systems contain cyberwarfare attack programs of considerable sophistication. I have allocated most of my processing power to analysing them."

<Joker> (mostly for the laughs): "So if she starts claiming to be the ‘vanguard of our destruction,’ I call shotgun on the first lifeboat."

For anyone not paying attention, if "Cyberwarfare?" is selected: 

<Shepard> "Cyberwarfare means things like viruses, right?"

<EDI> "In close range ship-to-ship combat I can sometimes break through the firewalls of an enemy’s internal wireless network. 

Once I seize control of their systems, I can turn off gravity or air. I can disable weapons guidance or shields. Or I can put their fusion plant in meltdown. 

On the defense, I manage Normandy’s suit of jammers, decoys, and internal firewalls."

www.youtube.com/watch

All we need to do now is find a way to implant those algorithms into the Reaper network, or a means of amplifying her signal transmition capabilities. . . 

Interestingly, this could also be used by IT supporters, since it is confirmed there is hardware (i.e. actual pieces) from Sovereign present in the Normandy, meaning there is the potential for indoctrination. But that is a tangent that I am rather indifferent to. 

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 28 mai 2012 - 06:06 .

[Darksaberexile]

Byronic-Knight wrote...

All we need to do now is find a way to implant those algorithms into the Reaper network, or a means of amplifying her signal transmition capabilities. . . 

Well, the Geth probably have some ideas we could copy in that regard, having had experience with a Reaper broadcasting code to all Geth in the Rannoch system (I'd assume they'd have some knowledge of how it was done).


On a different note, what effect would combining a nuclear weapon with a mass effect core produce? (if it creates an even stronger explosion, it would give another possible weapon to use)

[Byronic-Knight]

Yeah, the intent behind the face was to imply I knew there are plenty of ways in which such a thing could be accomplished: Geth ability to interface with nearly any system and diseminate code at the speed of light; installing and/or replicating EDI for use on more than one ship (fighters and frigates would be best as their speed and manoeuverability would allow them to get close to a Reaper without much trouble relative to a cruiser or dreadnought), affording her time to infiltrate their systems; using the Crucible as a giant antenna; etc.

I just found it interesting/depressing to find yet another bit of information that was ignored in favour of an unintelligible device that becomes the basket into which everyone dumps their eggs despite its function being an utter mystery. 

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 28 mai 2012 - 09:17 .

[MrMcDoll]

If they gave us the option of saying "no" to the star-kid and having to fight a conventional war,
and the star kid controls the reapers,
and IS the citadel,

Why not just focus all our effort on blowing up the citadel?

There's your "bittersweet" ending Bioware - all the people on the citadel will die. Hell, have the last mission an attempt to evacuate it or something.

Could have done that and saved on the straw-man focus on earth.
Earth bore no importance thus far in the ME universe.

[a.m.p]

@Byronic-Knight
Thanks for the note. I vaguely remembered that conversation, I'm going through ME2 now too, but I'm not there yet. It's sweet how EDI can be not just the philosophical, but also the technical answer to the catalyst and his problem.

@Darksaberexile
A nuclear/antimatter explosion combined with a ship's eezo core explosion?
Well, according to Kirrahe, their ship's core made for a 20 kiloton ordnance (sure didn't look like 20 kiloton in the actual cutscene). The biggest nuke blown up to this day was about 57 megaton. So there.

@MrMcDoll
Not bitter enough. 13 million more dead people on top of however many billion people were already dead by that point is not bitter enough. That would be too easy. /sarcasm

[Vigil_N7]

If people DO want to win conventionally, then I'd add the following stipulations:
- Shepard dies
- Key squad members also die, not necessarily all of them but perhaps Garrus, Liara and maybe even Shepard's LI.
- Admiral Hackett dies as his ship gets blown up
- Anderson and TIM die like normal
- Wrex/Kirrahe and Primarch Victus both survive on Earth
- All quarian admirals are killed, but the fleet remains relatively strong.

You could probably lessen the stipulations to an extent, but for me they are perfectly acceptable for a conventional victory. Honestly, a conventional victory would be the best case scenario as using the catalyst or destroying it has such vast-ranging consequences that simply can't be determined, while at least with a conventional victory while the galaxy is torn, it does maintain a semblance of what it once was.

So the idea is you add stipulations such as Shepard dieing and some of his crew as it makes the decision much harder, or else everyone would go for a conventional victory. It also would exemplify the cost of ignoring the catalyst for a longer, more bloodier war but the up-side to this is the future of the galaxy is secure.

I know, I know, people don't want to see Shepard or their LI die, but how upset were you over the 7 alliance fleets that were destroyed in order to save the council? I'm sure it was barely a footnote in your mind. Having hundreds of thousands of alliance ships being destroyed would be the same - you wouldn't really be affected because shepard and co lives - the people who you've built an emotional connection to over the three games. Unless of course, bioware made it painstakingly obvious that conventional victory was bad by emotionally blackmailing shepard.

If you saw Shepard and co die as a result of a conventional victory, it'd really add weight to the decision and make it an important choice. Letting the council die is far harder to swallow than some alliance ships being destroyed because like them or not - you as a player build an affinity towards them and get used to them. The same should be the case with a conventional victory.

[a.m.p]

@Vigil_N7
I would be perfectly fine with that.
In fact I stated somewhere that I personally would be all right with any price, as long as the galaxy as a whole was able to recover in a reasonable amount of time and the reapers were beaten.

And I agree with the importance of meaningful choice. If the price would be too high for someone, their choice to not do it and take one of the crucible options would then become a meaningful choice. They'd do that not because they were playing a game and picking option A, B or C was necessary to finish it, but because they judged the price to be too high.

Modifié par a.m.p, 28 mai 2012 - 06:01 .

[Byronic-Knight]

Vigil_N7 wrote...
*snip
I know, I know, people don't want to see Shepard or their LI die, but how upset were you over the 7 alliance fleets that were destroyed in order to save the council? I'm sure it was barely a footnote in your mind. Having hundreds of thousands of alliance ships being destroyed would be the same - you wouldn't really be affected because shepard and co lives - the people who you've built an emotional connection to over the three games. Unless of course, bioware made it painstakingly obvious that conventional victory was bad by emotionally blackmailing shepard.

If you saw Shepard and co die as a result of a conventional victory, it'd really add weight to the decision and make it an important choice. Letting the council die is far harder to swallow than some alliance ships being destroyed because like them or not - you as a player build an affinity towards them and get used to them. The same should be the case with a conventional victory.

I see your point, but I maintain there should be an opportunity to have Shep live at the end (battle-scarred and emotionally damaged, but alive)---my suggestion (stated in my OP on this thread) would be determined on EMS (to have it actually serve a function beyond "And you can also pick Green), so that, if it’s high enough, the Normandy is able to reach the Citadel before (s)he bleeds out. 

A lot of people have already died---Ash/Kaidan, Thane, Mordin, Legion, Anderson, Miranda (in my playthrough), along with the trillions across the galaxy since the Reapers arrived---I think it is already as tragic as it needs to be. There was the precedent set in ME2 that if you did everything properly, you could walk out of the suicide mission smelling like roses (nearly, anyway), and I think it should be the same for the conclusion of what is (was?) arguably the greatest sci-fi trilogy at least of this gaming generation. 

However, I would accept certain members of your (former) crew were to die on Earth while you’re ‘chatting’ with Harby’s leash holder. Samara perhaps, Kirrahe (if present), Zaeed, the other Virmire survivor (depending on the playthrough). I don’t know how I would feel about Garrus; Wrex or Grunt seem more appropriate, being Krogan, warriors whose greatest honour is to die in combat against worthy enemies. On the other hand, it would make the theoratical ceremony afterward more poignant if Shepard said a few words about one of the greatest friends (s)he had. 

You would have to have your EMS maxed out to acheive it---barring the inclusion of Suicide Mission-esque asset allocation mechanics in Priority: Earth---with adjustments to the system, so that it is actually achievable without multiplayer, which is another reason to separate multiplayer’s influence on campaign, to make people work for it (since you can promote N7 operatives a few times and get 6/7/8000 EMS in campaign without any trouble), but that ‘happy’* ending should be present and (not necessarily easily) attainable.  



*in quotes because it would still be bittersweet considering the devastation wrought across the galaxy, which should be shown in the final cutscene: Thessia, Palaven, Earth (at least) ruined, smouldering rubble, the dead still being pulled out from under the remains of buildings, the steel and concrete, still smoking, at the (very) early stages of being cleared away, the missing and killed being accounted for, their bodies being burned or buried (depending on custom), the families mourning those that gave their lives.

And even battle scenes showing what remains of the Reapers across the galaxy. 

It really needs a Lord of the Rings type multi-epilogue showing the battle; the clean-up; the fighting with the stragglers; (if alive) Shepard in the hospital then at the ceremony/funeral for the fallen, (if dead) Shepard’s casket draped in a flag, those (surviving) that knew him gathered in commemoration of the sacrifice(s) (s)he made; some indication as to what the long-term aftermath is, or what those present hope the future to be. (my 2¢)

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 28 mai 2012 - 09:35 .

[Byronic-Knight]

a.m.p wrote...

@Byronic-Knight
Thanks for the note. I vaguely remembered that conversation, I'm going through ME2 now too, but I'm not there yet. It's sweet how EDI can be not just the philosophical, but also the technical answer to the catalyst and his problem.