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[Sad Dragon]

Hello All,

This might turn out to be a bit of a read but I will try to keep it short. I'm going to touch on some issues regarding the star child -- and how I would envision a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" response could have been played out. I'm not going to go into IT or the like, I'm going to come at this straight on -- so keep that in mind if you wonder about some point I make


-- The Catalyst, aka Star Child --
Ok, so the catalyst is the citadel, and also the AI/VI that controls the reapers. Something i have been thinking about it, what would happen if you simply removed it? After all it controls the Reapers -- and in this plot point we find the beginning of my idea.

There are two ways you could go about this -- that i can think of at the moment -- but they all start out the same:

Catalyst: You must choose: Control, Synthesis or Destroy.
Shepard: Shepard to Hacket, are you there?
Hacket: Shepard? What's going on, nothing's happening?
Catalyst: What are you doing?
Shepard: Hacket, listen to me very closely -- cause I might not be able to repeat myself. I need you to blow up the citadel. It's the only way.
Hacket: Attention all ships in the allied fleet, we need to focus on destroying the citadel.
Catalyst: What have you done!?
Shepard: Broken the Circle.
-BAM-

From here on I can see things going two ways so lets start with the first one:

Now we know for a fact that Sovereign died when we killed infested Saren -- or at least blacked out long enough for us to kill it. If the catalyst controlled all the reapers something similar could have happened. Perhaps not an all out destruction of all reapers but maybe enough to make it so that their shields and outer shells get vulnerable. From there its all up to EMS if you manage to kick ass and chew bubblegum -- or if you're just all out of gum.

Option two:
Reapers now have free will -- who knows what will happen. Infighting might occur; some being pissed with having being harvested; some might share the flawed logic of the Catalyst; and some might notice that the Geth and Quarians get along so that the premises for it all is flawed. Now this would be a wild card option cause anything could really happen here but I just felt like i should throw it out there while I'm just indulging myself in coming up with endings.


And there you have it.
Is any of this plausible? I haven't noticed anything contradicting it in the lore so sure.
Is this all inconsequential? Yes. BioWare has stated that they will just explain the endings -- and between you and me I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with that explains the current ending -- so this wall of text is essentially meaningless. But it was fun to write


Hope you had as fun reading it as i had writing it.
Also: Sorry but couldn't come up with a fitting TL:DR for you guys avoiding reading walls of text ^^;

-The Sad Dragon

[Mushufasa1512]

Don't worry guys they are going to put all that dialogue with the star child they deleted back into the game. That will explain everything right? Right?

[CapnManx]

Sad Dragon wrote...

Hello All,

This might turn out to be a bit of a read but I will try to keep it short. I'm going to touch on some issues regarding the star child -- and how I would envision a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" response could have been played out. I'm not going to go into IT or the like, I'm going to come at this straight on -- so keep that in mind if you wonder about some point I make


-- The Catalyst, aka Star Child --
Ok, so the catalyst is the citadel, and also the AI/VI that controls the reapers. Something i have been thinking about it, what would happen if you simply removed it? After all it controls the Reapers -- and in this plot point we find the beginning of my idea.

There are two ways you could go about this -- that i can think of at the moment -- but they all start out the same:

Catalyst: You must choose: Control, Synthesis or Destroy.
Shepard: Shepard to Hacket, are you there?
Hacket: Shepard? What's going on, nothing's happening?
Catalyst: What are you doing?
Shepard: Hacket, listen to me very closely -- cause I might not be able to repeat myself. I need you to blow up the citadel. It's the only way.
Hacket: Attention all ships in the allied fleet, we need to focus on destroying the citadel.
Catalyst: What have you done!?
Shepard: Broken the Circle.
-BAM-

From here on I can see things going two ways so lets start with the first one:

Now we know for a fact that Sovereign died when we killed infested Saren -- or at least blacked out long enough for us to kill it. If the catalyst controlled all the reapers something similar could have happened. Perhaps not an all out destruction of all reapers but maybe enough to make it so that their shields and outer shells get vulnerable. From there its all up to EMS if you manage to kick ass and chew bubblegum -- or if you're just all out of gum.

Option two:
Reapers now have free will -- who knows what will happen. Infighting might occur; some being pissed with having being harvested; some might share the flawed logic of the Catalyst; and some might notice that the Geth and Quarians get along so that the premises for it all is flawed. Now this would be a wild card option cause anything could really happen here but I just felt like i should throw it out there while I'm just indulging myself in coming up with endings.


And there you have it.
Is any of this plausible? I haven't noticed anything contradicting it in the lore so sure.
Is this all inconsequential? Yes. BioWare has stated that they will just explain the endings -- and between you and me I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with that explains the current ending -- so this wall of text is essentially meaningless. But it was fun to write


Hope you had as fun reading it as i had writing it.
Also: Sorry but couldn't come up with a fitting TL:DR for you guys avoiding reading walls of text ^^;

-The Sad Dragon

I like option 2.  Destroy the Catalyst and let the Reapers defeat themselves (either by fighting, or just abandoning their mission).

Good thought.

[a.m.p]

Sad Dragon wrote...

Hello All,

This might turn out to be a bit of a read but I will try to keep it short. I'm going to touch on some issues regarding the star child -- and how I would envision a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" response could have been played out. I'm not going to go into IT or the like, I'm going to come at this straight on -- so keep that in mind if you wonder about some point I make


-- The Catalyst, aka Star Child --
Ok, so the catalyst is the citadel, and also the AI/VI that controls the reapers. Something i have been thinking about it, what would happen if you simply removed it? After all it controls the Reapers -- and in this plot point we find the beginning of my idea.

There are two ways you could go about this -- that i can think of at the moment -- but they all start out the same:

Catalyst: You must choose: Control, Synthesis or Destroy.
Shepard: Shepard to Hacket, are you there?
Hacket: Shepard? What's going on, nothing's happening?
Catalyst: What are you doing?
Shepard: Hacket, listen to me very closely -- cause I might not be able to repeat myself. I need you to blow up the citadel. It's the only way.
Hacket: Attention all ships in the allied fleet, we need to focus on destroying the citadel.
Catalyst: What have you done!?
Shepard: Broken the Circle.
-BAM-

From here on I can see things going two ways so lets start with the first one:

Now we know for a fact that Sovereign died when we killed infested Saren -- or at least blacked out long enough for us to kill it. If the catalyst controlled all the reapers something similar could have happened. Perhaps not an all out destruction of all reapers but maybe enough to make it so that their shields and outer shells get vulnerable. From there its all up to EMS if you manage to kick ass and chew bubblegum -- or if you're just all out of gum.

Option two:
Reapers now have free will -- who knows what will happen. Infighting might occur; some being pissed with having being harvested; some might share the flawed logic of the Catalyst; and some might notice that the Geth and Quarians get along so that the premises for it all is flawed. Now this would be a wild card option cause anything could really happen here but I just felt like i should throw it out there while I'm just indulging myself in coming up with endings.


And there you have it.
Is any of this plausible? I haven't noticed anything contradicting it in the lore so sure.
Is this all inconsequential? Yes. BioWare has stated that they will just explain the endings -- and between you and me I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with that explains the current ending -- so this wall of text is essentially meaningless. But it was fun to write


Hope you had as fun reading it as i had writing it.
Also: Sorry but couldn't come up with a fitting TL:DR for you guys avoiding reading walls of text ^^;

-The Sad Dragon

I'd be happier with the first option, since it would allow my allied fleet to kill reapers despite everything.
But any option that involves rejecting the starchild has my full support.
Thanks for posting. Yet another example that this is possible and more plausible then some of the options we already have (yes, I'm still looking at you, synthesis).

[Sad Dragon]

Whether you like option 1 or 2 more its all good, its just that I feel either of them are plausible outcomes from destroying the catalyst.

And don't mock Synthesis too much
At the moments its the 'best ending' we have -- in my humble opinion. Though as Shepard can live through destroy, nothing says that the Geth cant either -- in which case that would be the 'best ending'.

-TSD

Modifié par Sad Dragon, 07 avril 2012 - 05:55 .

[SpartenN7]

apparently blue, red, and green is their ways of " Artistic Direction" .totally bullsh...

[a.m.p]

Sad Dragon wrote...

Whether you like option 1 or 2 more its all good, its just that I feel either of them are plausible outcomes from destroying the catalyst.

And don't mock Synthesis too much
At the moments its the 'best ending' we have -- in my humble opinion. Though as Shepard can live through destroy, nothing says that the Geth cant either -- in which case that would be the 'best ending'.

-TSD

*must resist going into biophysical rage mode*
Sorry. I simply can not take anything that claims software has DNA seriously.
I'll shut up now.
We're tryng to fix Shepard here, not the physics of ME.

[Jeb231]

the destroy option already is refusing the catalyst logic.

[Sad Dragon]

a.m.p wrote...

Sad Dragon wrote...

Whether you like option 1 or 2 more its all good, its just that I feel either of them are plausible outcomes from destroying the catalyst.

And don't mock Synthesis too much
At the moments its the 'best ending' we have -- in my humble opinion. Though as Shepard can live through destroy, nothing says that the Geth cant either -- in which case that would be the 'best ending'.

-TSD

*must resist going into biophysical rage mode*
Sorry. I simply can not take anything that claims software has DNA seriously.
I'll shut up now.
We're tryng to fix Shepard here, not the physics of ME.

Oh, I never said it makes sense -- its just that I wanted the Geth to live so my options were somewhat limited

-TSD

[Almighty_Hoogs]

Sad Dragon wrote...

Hello All,

This might turn out to be a bit of a read but I will try to keep it short. I'm going to touch on some issues regarding the star child -- and how I would envision a "I reject your reality and substitute my own" response could have been played out. I'm not going to go into IT or the like, I'm going to come at this straight on -- so keep that in mind if you wonder about some point I make


-- The Catalyst, aka Star Child --
Ok, so the catalyst is the citadel, and also the AI/VI that controls the reapers. Something i have been thinking about it, what would happen if you simply removed it? After all it controls the Reapers -- and in this plot point we find the beginning of my idea.

There are two ways you could go about this -- that i can think of at the moment -- but they all start out the same:

Catalyst: You must choose: Control, Synthesis or Destroy.
Shepard: Shepard to Hacket, are you there?
Hacket: Shepard? What's going on, nothing's happening?
Catalyst: What are you doing?
Shepard: Hacket, listen to me very closely -- cause I might not be able to repeat myself. I need you to blow up the citadel. It's the only way.
Hacket: Attention all ships in the allied fleet, we need to focus on destroying the citadel.
Catalyst: What have you done!?
Shepard: Broken the Circle.
-BAM-

From here on I can see things going two ways so lets start with the first one:

Now we know for a fact that Sovereign died when we killed infested Saren -- or at least blacked out long enough for us to kill it. If the catalyst controlled all the reapers something similar could have happened. Perhaps not an all out destruction of all reapers but maybe enough to make it so that their shields and outer shells get vulnerable. From there its all up to EMS if you manage to kick ass and chew bubblegum -- or if you're just all out of gum.

Option two:
Reapers now have free will -- who knows what will happen. Infighting might occur; some being pissed with having being harvested; some might share the flawed logic of the Catalyst; and some might notice that the Geth and Quarians get along so that the premises for it all is flawed. Now this would be a wild card option cause anything could really happen here but I just felt like i should throw it out there while I'm just indulging myself in coming up with endings.


And there you have it.
Is any of this plausible? I haven't noticed anything contradicting it in the lore so sure.
Is this all inconsequential? Yes. BioWare has stated that they will just explain the endings -- and between you and me I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with that explains the current ending -- so this wall of text is essentially meaningless. But it was fun to write


Hope you had as fun reading it as i had writing it.
Also: Sorry but couldn't come up with a fitting TL:DR for you guys avoiding reading walls of text ^^;

-The Sad Dragon

[drawnacrol]

Sad Dragon wrote...

Catalyst: What have you done!?
Shepard: Broken the Circle.

Now that sounds like something Shepard would say

[a.m.p]

Jeb231 wrote...

the destroy option already is refusing the catalyst logic.

It could be. Maybe. If you tilt your head just right and squint a little. And if it wasn't provided by the catalyst.
As it stands now it isn't.
This was discussed around page 1-2 at length.
Also I don't want to reject just his logic. I want to reject his options. I don't want to go along with anything that is offered to me by the entity that created and controls the cycle.

[TheDasterdly]

Because you didn't make the game.

[CavScout]

You should be allowed to say "no" and then you get the load last screen beause the reapers win....

[CavScout]

Jeb231 wrote...

the destroy option already is refusing the catalyst logic.

They'll never understand.

[The Harmonizer]

Saying NO means taking the red option, since it's just a battle in Shepards own head, yes im talking about IT. I still believe in it because of the simple fact that Bioware STILL refuses to comment on IT, they wont confirm or kill it....

[2484Stryker]

Given the option to say NO to vent brat, I think most people would take it. That means the original "brilliant" endings thought up by Hudson & Walters would be nullified. Artistic integrity demands that the ending stays just as broken.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

You CAN say no, you can just not do either of the options. This just results in the reapers destroying the crucible and then you get game over. (woulda been nice to have had a cutscene here, would have been nice to have a cutscene when the reapers catch you in the galaxy map too)

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 avril 2012 - 06:44 .

[cchudoba002]

I have to agree with the OP. For a game about "player choice," the lack of the most obvious and arguably logical choice is glaringly obvious. Not to mention a break from the artistic themes, but there are many articles disecting the endings artistic values. I have yet to see one that endorses them from an artistic standpoint.

[Xyos]

Agree a 4th option should be there either the IE way or something else where we can spare the Geth, keep our squad together, and kill the reapers.

[Sad Dragon]

CavScout wrote...

Jeb231 wrote...

the destroy option already is refusing the catalyst logic.

They'll never understand.

The Interesting thing here is that Control is just as much of a refusal of his logic. It does not state that new synthetics wont arise -- only that you will be able to control the current ones. So while it does break the cycle it does so only to the same extent that Destroy does -- even if the destroy option is the final end of the reapers.
In truth there is nothing to say that new synthetics wont be created even with the Synthesis ending and that they rebel and destroy all other life.

The Catalyst reasoning is simply that Organics will create synthetics and that said synthetics will kill all organic life -- for one reason or another. Sure, with control ending you would have an army of reapers to battle a Synthetic uprising but it wouldnt nessecaraly break the cycle -- nor is Synthesis a fail safe solution.

The Stat Childs reasoning is the same and hasn't altered -- it mearly presents three choices for how you will change the cycle as it is now -- with reapers harvesting civilisations ever 50.000 years.

I think that is the logic that people want to call it out on, as the Geth and Quarians -- for some of us -- have already shown this not to be true and through that has invalidated the very idea of the cycle.

-TSD

[Kadayi]

SovereignWillReturn wrote...

But here's the thing, the Star Child LETS you choose red, and end his existence along with all the reapers.

If I did red, and the Star Child was all, "WTF SHEP! STOP! And then I shot his brains out, along with the red"
Then I would be okay.

LOL. That would be a great addition. 

However back to the OPs point. I'd be down with the 'No, I'm out of here' option, where you hail Hackett on the coms and either tell him to either sound the retreat or do things the hard way (after all the reapers are tough, but not invincible). 

Sure as I understand it you can dawdle around and eventually the Citadel will blow up regardless, but that not quite the same thing as saying 'thanks, but no thanks' to the Star Child. 

Modifié par Kadayi, 07 avril 2012 - 06:59 .

[darthoptimus003]

if they really realy want to keep the ****** starbrat this is how they can do it
kid- You must choose
shep- I dont think so, sheperd to hackett fire everything you got on my postion when i give you the signal
kid- what are you doing?
shep- well if i kill you i kill the reapers so now you have to choose stop them or i will kill us both, i blow you to hell or i dont. now choose
this can go one of 2 ways he agrees or dont
if agreed fleet stands down reapers leave 
paragon enterupe renagade entrupe to choose to play out for our chooses
 and dont ,well kill the little ba***** and shep runs like hell before inpact {i like this ending}
galaxy saved everyone happy
you can only get this option if you get like super high on the ems {without mp because mp i hate and not to mintion they said mp wouldnt effect sp} thats all bw needs to do hope yall read this one

Modifié par darthoptimus003, 07 avril 2012 - 07:11 .

[darthoptimus003]

shep gets to live be with li everyone happy that is Artistic that should have been

[a.m.p]

The Harmonizer wrote...

Saying NO means taking the red
option, since it's just a battle in Shepards own head, yes im talking
about IT. I still believe in it because of the simple fact that Bioware
STILL refuses to comment on IT, they wont confirm or kill it....

If they went with IT, I personally would be entirely happy. But a lot of other people wouldn't. So I don't think they will go with IT, way too risky a thing to do with the way things are now.

2484Stryker wrote...

Given the option to say NO to vent brat, I think most people would take it. That means the original "brilliant" endings thought up by Hudson & Walters would be nullified. Artistic integrity demands that the ending stays just as broken.

Sorry, but that argument can't work both ways. We are either a vocal minority and then giving us a little extra ending would not in any way affect the game for all the other millions of people who love it as it is. Or we are representing most of the audience and then the ending they made failed for that larger audience.

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

You CAN say no, you can
just not do either of the options. This just results in the reapers
destroying the crucible and then you get game over. (woulda been nice
to have had a cutscene here, would have been nice to have a cutscene
when the reapers catch you in the galaxy map too)

Yes, sure I can say no. I'm arguing that that should not automatically mean game over.
And I am completely in agreement that a 'reapers win' cutscene should be in there somewhere. Even Overlord had a cutscene if you failed.
Also, you've already posted that a couple pages ago and I already answered.

Modifié par a.m.p, 07 avril 2012 - 07:10 .