913 réponses à ce sujet

[the slynx]

I'm very curious how BioWare would respond to all this. I think there's a lot in this thread and in the threads a.m.p. has linked that they would benefit from reading, if they want to understand where (many? some?) fans are coming from.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Knowing how things work, my only hope that maybe one of community managers would be kind to gather these key notes and pass them to the dev team.
And dev team will have time and desire to give them a thought. Hopefully they will see the need for more logical narrative.

[a.m.p]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Knowing how things work, my only hope that maybe one of community managers would be kind to gather these key notes and pass them to the dev team.
And dev team will have time and desire to give them a thought. Hopefully they will see the need for more logical narrative.

I hope the dev team (at least parts of it) would want more logical narrative themselves.
I'm just trying get across the point that there is substantial demand for said narrative. So they know for sure.

[kalasaurus]

I'd love if they'd include this fourth option- it would be a great way to fix the ending. All of the choices are morally abhorrent. I care more about the implications of these "choices" than the mass relays and Citadel exploding tbh.

If Shepard gathered enough War Assets, this would be a nice way to give us a "happy ending" but with heavy sacrifices. Even if it means Shepard dying, at least she won't have to commit genocide or play god.

[M0keys]

I'm a bit biased because I know Grub (who wrote it,) but I like this one a lot!
http://social.biowar...index/10966771/

Modifié par M0keys, 08 avril 2012 - 07:20 .

[a.m.p]

M0keys wrote...

I'm a bit biased because I know Grub (who wrote it,) but I like this one a lot!
http://social.biowar...index/10966771/

Okay, I honestly can't read all that right now. It does have a shove off option, right? If it does, I'm linking it.

[M0keys]

a.m.p wrote...

M0keys wrote...

I'm a bit biased because I know Grub (who wrote it,) but I like this one a lot!
http://social.biowar...index/10966771/

Okay, I honestly can't read all that right now. It does have a shove off option, right? If it does, I'm linking it.

Sure does!

[M0keys]

Oh, and for some reason the clickable link isn't work *shrug*

[FlyinElk212]

Ahem, I uh, know this is a little shameless on my part, but here's an idea for 3 New Refusal endings I wrote a few days ago in another thread. The actual suggestion for the Refusal Endings are here.

It details not just a scene outlining the Refusal choice (complete w/ Dialogue), but the EMS parameters that go along w/ each choice. The Refusal Option actually grants 3 new endings, "Refusal & Loss", "Refusal & Victory", and "Refusal & Total Victory".

[a.m.p]

M0keys wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

M0keys wrote...

I'm a bit biased because I know Grub (who wrote it,) but I like this one a lot!
http://social.biowar...index/10966771/

Okay, I honestly can't read all that right now. It does have a shove off option, right? If it does, I'm linking it.

Sure does!

Linked. I'll find some time and read it. Thanks for posting. Here's to hoping something good will come out of this.

[a.m.p]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Ahem, I uh, know this is a little shameless on my part, but here's an idea for 3 New Refusal endings I wrote a few days ago in another thread. The actual suggestion for the Refusal Endings are here.

It details not just a scene outlining the Refusal choice (complete w/ Dialogue), but the EMS parameters that go along w/ each choice. The Refusal Option actually grants 3 new endings, "Refusal & Loss", "Refusal & Victory", and "Refusal & Total Victory".

And here I thought I did huge posts.
Bookmarking the thread for future reading and linking the refusal ending. As much as I'd love to see suicide mission 2.0 for purposes of this discussion we're limiting ourselves to various ways to defy the little space moron.

[FlyinElk212]

a.m.p wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

Ahem, I uh, know this is a little shameless on my part, but here's an idea for 3 New Refusal endings I wrote a few days ago in another thread. The actual suggestion for the Refusal Endings are here.

It details not just a scene outlining the Refusal choice (complete w/ Dialogue), but the EMS parameters that go along w/ each choice. The Refusal Option actually grants 3 new endings, "Refusal & Loss", "Refusal & Victory", and "Refusal & Total Victory".

And here I thought I did huge posts.
Bookmarking the thread for future reading and linking the refusal ending. As much as I'd love to see suicide mission 2.0 for purposes of this discussion we're limiting ourselves to various ways to defy the little space moron.

Absotutely--the second link up there's just the link to the Refusal Ending suggestion. It's not as long, and is yet another example of a refusal ending that'd work.

[TheCinC]

I agree, being able to choose 'none of the above' would be the -minimum- to make the ending of ME3 acceptable. Added to and linked from the OP in my own thread about creating a proper ending to ME3.

[dorktainian]

i was half expecting another option. one that said 'insert credit card details to see the real ending''.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Did read through couple of "refusal endings". While liked most, I couldn't say I like an idea of "winning it conventionally right here, right now", sounds like another magical Holywood ending to me.
Though I understand that making more realistic scenario work is difficult. Less holywoodish scenario is retreat now and start researching new solution to the Reapers/Catalyst while stalling them with war of attrition. But this scenario will not allow to wrap things quickly enough - and we can't expect a massive story arc just for sake of this fourth option. So I don't know - may be just leave it it that? Still would be more satisfying to me, knowing that hope still remains, and better than "har har, you refused to choose, so Reapers will destroy you!"

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 08 avril 2012 - 07:57 .

[a.m.p]

@TheCinC, thanks for linking. I tried searching for other examples and found an infinite amount so I am a bit overwhelmed with reading material, will give it a look when I can.

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Did read through couple of "refusal endings". While liked most, I couldn't say I like an idea of "winning it conventionally right here, right now", sounds like another magical Holywood ending to me.
Though I understand that making more realistic scenario work is difficult. Less holywoodish scenario is retreat now and start researching new solution to the Reapers/Catalyst while stalling them with war of attrition. But this scenario will not allow to wrap things quickly enough - and we can't expect a massive story arc just for sake of this fourth option. So I don't know - may be just leave it it that? Still would be more satisfying to me, knowing that hope still remains, and better than "har har, you refused to choose, so Reapers will destroy you!"

Agree on the winning now and here. Actually that was part of my original proposition.
There is no way in hell all reapers can be beaten at Earth in one battle. The big drawback of this option, that would balance it against the other ones, is that the war will continue for months if not years with devastating casualties and there will never be full certainty that the reapers are truly gone.
Earth would be just the battle that broke the tide. Stalingrad, if we're looking for historical parallells.

Modifié par a.m.p, 08 avril 2012 - 11:01 .

[M0keys]

a.m.p wrote...

@TheCinC, thanks for linking. I tried searching for other examples and found an infinite amount so I am a bit overwhelmed with reading material, will give it a look when I can.

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Did read through couple of "refusal endings". While liked most, I couldn't say I like an idea of "winning it conventionally right here, right now", sounds like another magical Holywood ending to me.
Though I understand that making more realistic scenario work is difficult. Less holywoodish scenario is retreat now and start researching new solution to the Reapers/Catalyst while stalling them with war of attrition. But this scenario will not allow to wrap things quickly enough - and we can't expect a massive story arc just for sake of this fourth option. So I don't know - may be just leave it it that? Still would be more satisfying to me, knowing that hope still remains, and better than "har har, you refused to choose, so Reapers will destroy you!"

Agree on the winning now and here. Actually that was part of my original proposition.
There is no way in hell all reapers can be beaten at Earth in one battle. The big drawback of this option, that would balance it against the other ones, is that the war will continue for months if not years with devastating casualties and there will never be full cretainty that the reapers are truly gone.
Earth would be just the battle that broke the tide. Stalingrad, if we're looking for historical parallells.

Yeah, that would definitely require a whole fourth game dedicated to the galaxy winning the war as an actual war of multiple battles, wouldn't it?

[a.m.p]

M0keys wrote...

a.m.p wrote...

@TheCinC, thanks for linking. I tried searching for other examples and found an infinite amount so I am a bit overwhelmed with reading material, will give it a look when I can.

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Did read through couple of "refusal endings". While liked most, I couldn't say I like an idea of "winning it conventionally right here, right now", sounds like another magical Holywood ending to me.
Though I understand that making more realistic scenario work is difficult. Less holywoodish scenario is retreat now and start researching new solution to the Reapers/Catalyst while stalling them with war of attrition. But this scenario will not allow to wrap things quickly enough - and we can't expect a massive story arc just for sake of this fourth option. So I don't know - may be just leave it it that? Still would be more satisfying to me, knowing that hope still remains, and better than "har har, you refused to choose, so Reapers will destroy you!"

Agree on the winning now and here. Actually that was part of my original proposition.
There is no way in hell all reapers can be beaten at Earth in one battle. The big drawback of this option, that would balance it against the other ones, is that the war will continue for months if not years with devastating casualties and there will never be full cretainty that the reapers are truly gone.
Earth would be just the battle that broke the tide. Stalingrad, if we're looking for historical parallells.

Yeah, that would definitely require a whole fourth game dedicated to the galaxy winning the war as an actual war of multiple battles, wouldn't it?

Well... not necessarily. War without any doomsday devices to build and deliver is tedious business. Not necessarily game material.
I think this could be fit into a reasonable epilogue: show the immediate aftermath of the battle of Earth, have Hackett make a speech about what they are going to do, roll credits, then cut to n years later to confirm that the war was actually won.

[M0keys]

Yeah, but I think it might make a lot of players mad that Shepard wouldn't be a part of that. Imagine watching Empire Strikes Back, and the ending is suddenly Luke and the rebels celebrating on Endor. That'd really blow lol

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

True. I thought about it and "skipping years ahead" is corny... Weeks mostly you can do, like with any other option's epilogue.
But, I think you still absolutely can make touching and awesome epilogues with your friends, LI, etc, even when you have not won, have uncertain future ahead, but there are still hope - this is very important theme. You refuse to give up, and you "will find your own way". Good opportunity for these Krogan & Rachni "clone troops", has discussion with LI about bringing the child in the middle of the war, etc.

"We remember the dead, but we fight for the living!" (© Hellgate, it conveys theme of overall "hope in fighting a hopeless war" very well)

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 08 avril 2012 - 08:35 .

[a.m.p]

M0keys wrote...

Yeah, but I think it might make a lot of players mad that Shepard wouldn't be a part of that. Imagine watching Empire Strikes Back, and the ending is suddenly Luke and the rebels celebrating on Endor. That'd really blow lol

Firstly, if Shepard survives the citadel, they probably would be a part of it (unless they would develop a mental condition, trying to understand what they saw).
And in any case such a victory would be achieved by the forces that you, the player have gathered over the years. As confirmed by pretty cutscenes.
It could be said that the main, fundamental victory was achieved at Earth, when for the first time in billions of years the cycle was truly broken and a world being reaped was freed.
I personally consider that infinitely more uplifting then stargazer (because he is hopelessly depressing).

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

I think you can make epilogue with your friends, LI, etc, even when you have not won, have uncertain future ahead, but there are still hope - this is very important theme. You refuse to give up, and you "will find your own way". Good opportunity for these Krogan & Rachni "clone troops", has discussion with LI about bringing the child in the middle of the war, etc.

Or that.

Modifié par a.m.p, 08 avril 2012 - 08:35 .

[the slynx]

a.m.p wrote...

And in any case such a victory would be achieved by the forces that you, the player have gathered over the years. As confirmed by pretty cutscenes.
I personally consider that infinitely more uplifting then stargazer...

Yes, this.

The game's themes of hard-won unity being worth something require this sort of an ending, or it risks degenerating too far into hero worship.

[a.m.p]

torudoom wrote...

The game's themes of hard-won unity being worth something require this sort of an ending, or it risks degenerating too far into hero worship.

Yeah , can we talk about that for a moment? (I should probably make a separate thread with everything I have to say about stargazer and shut up on the issue).

Posted it here previously, quoting:

They mentioned that on the escapist podcast about the me3 endings. I think Susan Arendt summarised the problem with the whole messianic angle the best way possible. It's here, around 01:14:20.

I hate that shift. For the entirety of the game it's about unity, comradery and standing together against impossible odds. It's not Shepard vs reapers, it's the galaxy vs reapers. And I loved that. At the end it suddenly turns into this dumb metaphor.

What, was winning the most terrible war the galaxy had ever known not profound enough? Seriously, until the ending me3 felt a lot like those old war films. They didn't need any extra symbolism to be meaningful. They were just stories of normal people in a world-shattering war.

And I want that feeling back.

Modifié par a.m.p, 09 avril 2012 - 07:43 .

[the slynx]

a.m.p wrote...

Yeah , can we talk about that for a moment? (I should probably make a separate thread with everything I have to say about stargazer and shut up on the issue).

Posted it here previously, quoting:

They mentioned that on the escapist podcast about the me3 endings. I think Susan Arendt summarised the problem with the whole messianic angle the best way possible. It's here, around 01:14:20.

I hate that shift. For the entirety of the game it's about unity, comradery and standing together against impossible odds. It's not Shepard vs reapers, it's the galaxy vs reapers. And I loved that. At the end it suddenly turns into this dumb metaphor.

What, was winning the most terrible war the galaxy had ever known not profound enough? Seriously, until the ending me3 felt a lot like those old war films. They didn't need any extra symbolism to be meaningful. They were just stories of normal people in a world-shattering war.

And I want that feeling back.

Same here.

Although I'll admit that I know more than a few avid gamers who frankly love that 'one man in a trillion' feeling of being the unquestionable hero of universal renown. It makes sense for developers to try to find a balance between the two impulses; I tend to think the Stargazer sequence veers a little too far into the hero aspect.

I like the fan endings that still have that honourable sacrifice at the end to fill the hero role, but which ultimately defer to the efforts of the larger group of civilisations to actually get the job done. And I agree that playing too loosely with symbolism invites a form of ridiculousness the games really don't need at that juncture.

Have you played Dragon Age? I enjoyed the more personal focus of the second game for that reason; you played as a hero, more or less, but one whose story was one story in a city full of stories, and you certainly didn't emerge as universally loved, or even liked. Curious about your take on that. A lot of people really disliked the second - admittedly with some valid criticisms.

[pikey1969]

My post is http://social.biowar...index/10995299/ pretty much on this side of this issue if you're interested in reading/adding to the list of articles/posts in your op.

Modifié par pikey1969, 09 avril 2012 - 02:18 .