292 réponses à ce sujet

[Baa Baa]

I hope not. But at the same time I want more Harbinger in the EC.

[Little Princess Peach]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

But Allan, in FONV you did fight a boss at the end, more or less... at least in most endings.

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

Sir Allan How would we convince Harbringer to leave Earth alone just by talking to it?

[jumpingkaede]

Kushan101 wrote...

I totally agree, just because its a computer game doesnt mean it needs a boss. We need only look at Deus Ex: Human Revolution. The boss fights where slightly shoe horned in, the dev's even apologised for it!

DX: HR had a problem because the bosses were almost impossible unless you made a combat build.  Which meant if you put time and energy into stealth/hacking you were screwed.

If the bosses could have been, say, stealth-killed/avoided or hacked, then there wouldn't have been as much of an outcry.

Anyway, I'm in the camp that wants a boss fight.  Or something.  It doesn't have to be a whittle down health boss fight but something that says "This is a real challenge and you, as a gamer, are being pushed to your limits much like Shepard is in-game to his."

And not "select top left choice to beat the game."  I guess it's becoming an outdated mode of thinking but I like my games to be difficult/challenging.  Insanity is fun for me.  

If that water-drinking bird from the Simpsons could accomplish exactly the same thing and beat TIM and reach the same ending...

I don't know.  I don't like it.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 13 avril 2012 - 06:11 .

[TheCrakFox]

I'm not a fan of boss fights just for the sake of boss fights. ME2's Human Reaper for example was super gimmicky. I'd much rather have had the original foetus-like appearance, and just left it to be destroyed with the rest of the base. When done well (Shadow Broker and Tela Vasir) they can be great, but I can't see a fight with a 2km long dreadnaught being anything other than a gimmick.

I do, however, wish to see Harbiger get blown the fudge up by the Normandy.

[iorveth1271]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

Interesting hah. Didn't know that yet

Still, I'd totally love a boss fight of some sort with Harbinger, although I didn't expect it anymore after I heard something along the lines that it's too "videogamey" pre-release already... sad, if you ask me. Harbinger has been so massively throughout the last 2 games that it was only logical for him to have some sort of final huge standoff with Shepard, after all the taunting in ME2 and there was definitely potential for an epic fight there. (Thinking of the DAO Denerim battle system with all the different armies under your command for example) I still have a faint hope for it happening at some point.

Harbinger deserves more than a 1 minute cameo

[Lavits75]

Harbinger would have been nice to fight. But not in the classic, this is how you kill him: hide, shoot, repeat six times. If it were like Mr. Freeze in Batman: Arkham City where the same attack never worked twice, it'd be bada**. And I'd like to test Shep against Harbinger, since he's the oldest and strongest.

TIM would be the WORST possible end-game fight. He's the perfect villian, but not because he's tough. It's because he's shrewd, ruthless, and calculating. Using words and ideas to break people. Commanding armies of operatives. One on one with Illusive man? Talk about awful.

Modifié par Lavits75, 13 avril 2012 - 06:13 .

[Faded-Myth]

I'd have been satisfied if The Illusive Man's end scene was expanded. You don't necessarily have to fight Harbinger, but it would have been great to see Shepard's final choice be put into better context. He's standing next to the Illusive man who's rambling about control. Harbinger is right outside, just asking to be destroyed. Either Shepard could succumb to TIM's reasoning here, (which would make far more sense than having space kid turn Shepard so easily only moments after killing TIM) or Shepard could do what he set out to do and destroy the Reapers through whatever means.

I guess what I'm saying is, either the gameplay should end upon reaching TIM and making a decision or two (followed by a satisfying amount of ending cut scenes) or progress up until Shepard at least engages Harbinger with dialog. While I'd like to go toe-to-toe with Harbinger, I'd settle for a lengthy conversation and have Shepard engage in satisfying, complex dialog with the beings that were taunting him from the start. Give Shepard a chance to carry out what he set out to do.

And now I'm angry about the ending again.

[Calibrations Expert]

I wanted TIM to turn into the same monster Saren was turned into by Sovreign but this time by Harbinger.

Bioware said they had no final boss because it felt too much like a videogame, which would have actually made sense, expect then WTF was Kai Leng!?!?

The Reapers as a whole were an afterthought. We spend two games gearing up to fight the Reapers and then fight Cerberus.

Modifié par Calibrations Expert, 13 avril 2012 - 06:13 .

[77boy84]

The TIM sequence is good enough to substitute a boss fight.

Honestly, it fits better and reflects mass effect better than a regular boss fight would.

We don't need boss fights, folks. Boss fights for the sake of boss fights never work.

[PistolPete7556]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

But Allan, in FONV you did fight a boss at the end, more or less... at least in most endings.

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

But there are final bosses in the Dragon Age games? So...is a video game a video game without some type of boss?

[cogsandcurls]

I agree you don't need a boss fight for the sake of having a boss fight. But honestly I think, to me at least, the appeal of having a boss fight isn't so much about actually having the boss fight as it is....making things challenging, I guess. I don't have any strong opinons on the Human Reaper, for instance, but I like that it was there, because it kept me engaged and it meant that when I'd beaten it and the final rush back to the Normandy started, I felt like I'd achieved something difficult. It wasn't even that difficult as a fight, but I actually feel like having an obstacle like that is neccessary, you know?

In the final sequence of ME3, Shepard was struggling big time. Getting to that final choice was a challenge for her, sure - but it wasn't for me and so I felt like I'd achieved nothing once I got there. Does that even make sense? That sense of a challenge for a player, to make them feel like they struggled to finish the game and then suceeded, I think that's necessary. It doesn't even need to be a boss fight - the dash to the conduit on Ilos has a similar down-to-the-wire sense of accomplishment once you get to the end of the corridor. ME3 has that last Horde Mode bit I think, but you're not against a clock there and you don't get the satisfaction of finishing the horde off - you finish your objective and then you wander over to the missile and you're done. And by the time Shepard enters the conduit, any lingering rush and sense of overcoming hardship left over from that fight is long gone, because the rest of the game is pressing the "walk forward" button and the pace just slooooooows.

That sense of accomplishment is lacking in my opinion, and I think it ties in well to the need for a boss fight, because by including one you not only challenge the player but tie up the loose narrative thread of Harbinger's sudden complete disinterest in Shepard. Challenge + narrative closure seems like a winning combination to me.

[txmn1016]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This may not be the most popular opinion, but I hope there's no boss fight.

I don't hate boss fights, but some of my favourite endings are where I end up not fighting the boss (Fallout, PST, FONV, heck even Ultima VII). I don't think it's as necessary for a story based game. I enjoyed the endings of ME1 and ME2, but the boss fights were weaker parts for me. Convincing Saren to take his own life would have been a fitting end but we still get put into a boss fight. ME2's proto-reaper seemed to be a boss fight because games need boss fights. I would have been fine just destroying the collector base.

That doesn't mean there doesn't need to be a confrontation with an antagonist, but running around shooting or doing some sort of fight with a gimmick doesn't really appeal to me. If there's a battle, I'd prefer for it to be more of a puzzle.

JMO.

The proto-Reaper boss was a little on the "meh" side, but you have to admit, taking it down led to some pretty epic cut scenes--i.e., the platforms come crashing down with it and you have to desperately slide to save one of your squadmates from death.  I think that scene made the slightly lackluster boss worth it.

[Lavits75]

Calibrations Expert wrote...

I wanted TIM to turn into the same monster Saren was turned into by Sovreign but this time by Harbinger.

Bioware said they had no final boss because it felt too much like a videogame, which would have actually made sense, expect then WTF was Kai Leng!?!?

The Reapers as a whole were an afterthought. We spend two games gearing up to fight the Reapers and then fight Cerberus.

That would've ruined everything about TIM though... He isn't the type of villian you fight

[jumpingkaede]

77boy84 wrote...

The TIM sequence is good enough to substitute a boss fight.

Honestly, it fits better and reflects mass effect better than a regular boss fight would.

We don't need boss fights, folks. Boss fights for the sake of boss fights never work.

Why have any boss fight then?

Shepard should just talk his way through the game?  (Except for crushing Cerberus stooges and Reaper husks, hehe.)

ME2's boss fight was a little gimmicky, but they could have a showdown with the Collector General instead.  If ME2 ended like ME3 you would crash land on the Collector Base, talk down the Collector General, and then fly away as it explodes.

Lavits75 wrote...

Calibrations Expert wrote...

I wanted TIM to turn into the same monster Saren was turned into by Sovreign but this time by Harbinger.

Bioware said they had no final boss because it felt too much like a videogame, which would have actually made sense, expect then WTF was Kai Leng!?!?

The Reapers as a whole were an afterthought. We spend two games gearing up to fight the Reapers and then fight Cerberus.

That would've ruined everything about TIM though... He isn't the type of villian you fight

Which is why he should never have been the "final boss".  The TIM "fight" was the most lackluster ending fight to a videogame that I could remember.  It wasn't a battle of wits.  It wasn't a test of intelligence.  It wasn't a charismatic and passionate debate over ideology.

It was pushing the same button (A) and sometimes (X) to advance a conversation that I'd done a million times before in the series.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 13 avril 2012 - 06:18 .

[Wulfram]

Reaper Destroyer + loads of banshees and brutes is enough of a "boss fight" for me.

Though I suppose it's less so if you play a lot of Gold multiplayer.

[Alexius]

If I have to be honest, I didn't notice there wasn't a final boss fight until I got here and read some comments of people complaining about it. Although I did die several times in the last Reaper attack before shooting the missiles, and that fits my personal boss fight tradition in a way.

[Renzor004]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This may not be the most popular opinion, but I hope there's no boss fight.

I don't hate boss fights, but some of my favourite endings are where I end up not fighting the boss (Fallout, PST, FONV, heck even Ultima VII). I don't think it's as necessary for a story based game. I enjoyed the endings of ME1 and ME2, but the boss fights were weaker parts for me. Convincing Saren to take his own life would have been a fitting end but we still get put into a boss fight. ME2's proto-reaper seemed to be a boss fight because games need boss fights. I would have been fine just destroying the collector base.

That doesn't mean there doesn't need to be a confrontation with an antagonist, but running around shooting or doing some sort of fight with a gimmick doesn't really appeal to me. If there's a battle, I'd prefer for it to be more of a puzzle.

JMO.

i dont like your opinion.  and to me a puzzle IS a gimmik.
a final boss should encompass all the techniques and challenges you've learned throughout the game in one final epic test of your abilities.

[Faded-Myth]

I'll agree that I'm glad Shepard doesn't fight a transformed TIM. I have "The Art of the Mass Effect Unierse" right here and, looking at TIM's concept art, it would have been terrible. TIM's a well-dressed, cunning and intelligent human being. Indoctrinated and as manipulated as he manipulative, but still a human being. And I liked that, of all the races you would expect to see serving as the right hand of the Reapers, a human being took Saren's place. It felt right to be standing there talking to this delusional guy who thinks the very beings trying to destroy the galaxy should be controlled.

I'm satisfied with the conversation you have with him, but I would have taken more time with him than even a second of time with Star Kid any day. A deep conversation with Harbinger would have just been the icing on the cake. Which beats the crap sandwich I was forced to swallow instead.

Modifié par Faded-Myth, 13 avril 2012 - 06:22 .

[77boy84]

jumpingkaede wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

The TIM sequence is good enough to substitute a boss fight.

Honestly, it fits better and reflects mass effect better than a regular boss fight would.

We don't need boss fights, folks. Boss fights for the sake of boss fights never work.

Why have any boss fight then?

Shepard should just talk his way through the game?  (Except for crushing Cerberus stooges and Reaper husks, hehe.)

ME2's boss fight was a little gimmicky, but they could have a showdown with the Collector General instead.  If ME2 ended like ME3 you would crash land on the Collector Base, talk down the Collector General, and then fly away as it explodes.

Sure, you can have boss fights, and for a game with so much action, they're needed for an occasional break in the pace of shooting mooks, but when I think of Mass Effect, I don't think of shooting saren husk because we need the obligatory boss fight, or shooting human reaper because we need that obligatory boss fight.

I think of talking down wrex, and the conversation with sovereign, and everything with mordin in his loyalty mission etc. The powerful moments that came from talking and knowing the characters, not from shooting bosses.

No one bought into Mass Effect because they wanted to have some awesome boss fights. That's not what Mass Effect is, and that's never what it is.

The conversation with TIM was a fantastic moment, and a better reflection of what Mass Effect is than fighting Saren or the Human Reaper. It's probably the one decision about the ending I actually like.

[Bfler]

Maybe a fight where Shepard has to enter Harbinger and to deactivate his shields. Then a switch to one of you squad mates outside who has to adjust the target laser multiple times for attack runs of the Normandy, while the rest of the team defends him against hordes of Reapers. Then a switch to Shepard who has to leave the collapsing Harbinger in a short amount of time.

Modifié par Bfler, 13 avril 2012 - 06:27 .

[jumpingkaede]

Wulfram wrote...

Reaper Destroyer + loads of banshees and brutes is enough of a "boss fight" for me.

Though I suppose it's less so if you play a lot of Gold multiplayer.

I think that goes into the storytelling oddity that is ME3.

Horde mode isn't my idea of a boss fight typically, but I suppose the whole thing + the Reaper Destroyer could've counted.

If that was the "final boss" then that was the time to start winding down the game.  Congratulations!  You won!  Now let's get to the wrapping up of the story and the celebration!  (Or Shepard's death or not, there could be torture, whatever.)

Then that would've worked okay too.

[Meltemph]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

But Allan, in FONV you did fight a boss at the end, more or less... at least in most endings.

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

I'd argue that still is a boss fight, just not one that resaults in combat.

[Daedalus1773]

We already had a final boss.

His name was Marauder Shields.

...

His name was Marauder Shields.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

But Allan, in FONV you did fight a boss at the end, more or less... at least in most endings.

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

Any game where you can defeat the bad guy through reasoned debate is aces in my book.

Also, I can't help but think of the original Prince of Persia: Sands of Time.  There were boss battles, but they were anti-climactic compared to the puzzle/platform gauntlet you have run to reach them.

[The_Duke75]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

But Allan, in FONV you did fight a boss at the end, more or less... at least in most endings.

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

Sir Allan How would we convince Harbringer to leave Earth alone just by talking to it?

Shepard: ****** or GTFO!
Harbinger: This hurts me.