292 réponses à ce sujet

[NM_Che56]

Boss fights are a little "obligatory". Having a "boss battle" in your head is pretty cool though (not going to say IT).

Afterall, in most of the ME trilogy, you don't have boss battles like one to advance to the next level like the old days. Sure, you have a few things in there like the Rannoch Reaper or Krogan Rite Thresher Maw, but they served the narrative. They weren't just thrown in because...well...we need some bosses.

The most memorable and powerful scenes were in the dialogue.

that said, seeing Harby blown to hell by big space guns would be gratifying...but not after one last duel of the minds with Shepard.

[count_4]

You guys obviously didn't get the memo.
A boss fight is just too videogamey. Mass Effect 3 is art, not simply a videogame. Art. A lame boss fight would just distract from all the art in the ending.
Just look at the profound colors, symbolizing the rich canvas(your RGB monitor) for this intellectual epiphany. Look at the deep philosophical questions the ending provokes("What have they been smoking when they wrote that crap?") or even the huge emotional and moral seduction(it makes you feel the urge to shoot at a child!) lingering underneath what just seems to be the worst writing ever encountered in story-driven video game history.
It's like the art of people like Andres Serrano. For the inexpert eye it is, quite literally I'm afraid, just crap and a rich combination of bodily fluids but if you learn to see behind the superficialities, it becomes a masterpiece.
Sure, at the end of the day it might still be pee, but arranged in a very meaningful and enlightening way.

Modifié par count_4, 13 avril 2012 - 06:29 .

[StElmo]

To be honest, I don't care either way provided the ending fits Mass Effect and starkid is gone / rendered a dream or some other kind of non-logic breaking form.

[Apathy1989]

I think Boss fights that have been built up must be played out - like the archdaemon in DAO.

However in ME3 there is no clear boss fight. We cannot expect shepard to fight Harbinger solo. Boss fight with TIM would be silly.


I would like to see Harbinger one last time though. Preferably want him to replace starchild, but whatever. He seems to have been skipped over in ME3.

Modifié par Apathy1989, 13 avril 2012 - 06:30 .

[varteral6162]

Avissel wrote...

tiger-tron wrote...

An epic Harbinger battle would satisfy my epic-needs.

The problem with that is ,how do you even begin to design a fight on that scale?

Shepard is what....6'1?

Harbinger is 2km.

How exactly do you make them fight?

IF the Destiny Ascension was saved in ME1 it could get into a dogfight with Harbinger during the final run to the Citadel beam.

[jumpingkaede]

77boy84 wrote...

Sure, you can have boss fights, and for a game with so much action, they're needed for an occasional break in the pace of shooting mooks, but when I think of Mass Effect, I don't think of shooting saren husk because we need the obligatory boss fight, or shooting human reaper because we need that obligatory boss fight.

I think of talking down wrex, and the conversation with sovereign, and everything with mordin in his loyalty mission etc. The powerful moments that came from talking and knowing the characters, not from shooting bosses.

No one bought into Mass Effect because they wanted to have some awesome boss fights. That's not what Mass Effect is, and that's never what it is.

The conversation with TIM was a fantastic moment, and a better reflection of what Mass Effect is than fighting Saren or the Human Reaper. It's probably the one decision about the ending I actually like.

There are moving emotional moments, which  as you say are memorable.  There are also exciting adrenaline charged moments.  That's fighting down a Thresher Maw, or taking out a Geth Colossus on foot, or the entire Suicide Mission (pretty much).

Mass Effect is both.  When I talk about Mass Effect, you're right, I don't talk about the action sequences because that's something that needs to be experienced.  That's what makes videogame such a great medium for storytelling, IMO.  

You can watch Shepard onscreen doing things in cutscenes.  But that's not the same feeling as controlling Shepard and ducking into cover with a sliver of health left and out of medigels and your entire squad down, and popping out of cover and dropping the last remaining Geth Prime to complete the mission.  It's why Mass Effect is much better as a game than a movie.  It's why so many gamers hated the Kai Leng fight scenes because the game is taking Shepard out of your hands and forcing you simply witness things happening.

The TIM fight is you watching Shepard do things.  You aren't really doing anything.  And the only feeling I came out of it with was boredom because I had heard the same discussion before.  With Saren.  (And also I knew that TIM was wrong, which he was... except when he turned out to be correct.)

Are you debating with him?  I gues you're supposed to be.  But a debate like that should have been handled more like the Phoenix Wright series.  Poking holes in his logic, catching him in mistruths, then changing his mind.  I don't know about you but I didn't experience too much of that.

So... agree to disagree. 

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 13 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[NM_Che56]

varteral6162 wrote...

Avissel wrote...

tiger-tron wrote...

An epic Harbinger battle would satisfy my epic-needs.

The problem with that is ,how do you even begin to design a fight on that scale?

Shepard is what....6'1?

Harbinger is 2km.

How exactly do you make them fight?

IF the Destiny Ascension was saved in ME1 it could get into a dogfight with Harbinger during the final run to the Citadel beam.

Unless you are controlling the ship and it's guns then that's a cut scene, not a boss fight. 

[sdfgdsfsdfsfs]

eddieoctane wrote...

Yeah, I think that's what a lot of people want. The waves of Banshees and Brutes just didn't have that same gratifying feeling that taking down Sarvereign, the Reaper larva, or the Shadow Broker did. And Kai Leng was too far before the final sequence to fill in for an end boss.

I didn't even know I was fighting the "end boss" at that point. I figured there would be a whole battle on the Citadel itself... because... you know... that would have been ****ing awesome.

Modifié par sdfgdsfsdfsfs, 13 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[legion999]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

But Allan, in FONV you did fight a boss at the end, more or less... at least in most endings.

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

I love New Vegas but I always found Speech to be a bit 'overpowered'. I'd like it more if you had to pick dialogue that would appeal to the character you were talking to and have a high enough speech skill. But I'm going off topic.

I would like a confrontation with Harbinger. It doesn'thave to be a boss fight.

[jumpingkaede]

Master Che wrote...

Boss fights are a little "obligatory". Having a "boss battle" in your head is pretty cool though (not going to say IT).

Afterall, in most of the ME trilogy, you don't have boss battles like one to advance to the next level like the old days. Sure, you have a few things in there like the Rannoch Reaper or Krogan Rite Thresher Maw, but they served the narrative. They weren't just thrown in because...well...we need some bosses.

The most memorable and powerful scenes were in the dialogue.

that said, seeing Harby blown to hell by big space guns would be gratifying...but not after one last duel of the minds with Shepard.

In ME there's a "boss battle" in every sequence.  For the same reason I pointed out above: it lends urgency to the scene, and the adrenaline rush and subsequent cooldown fits the feelings that Shepard experiences.  It's done because it works.  (Not saying that there aren't alternatives to "boss fights" but... they work.)

- Therum:  Boss fight (1) is Geth Colossus/drop ship.  After that, it's into the base and an easy mop up before (2) the Krogan mercenary guy.  As soon as you beat him, it's mission done and escape.

- Noveria:  Matriarch Benezia.  As soon as you beat her it's wrapup of Noveria, talking to the Rachni Queen, and leaving.

- Feros:  Fighting the... Thorian.  As soon as you're done the mission is pretty much over other than a recap of things and a nice epilogue talking to the colonists on Feros.

Same thing with ME2, except there are many more sequences.  It doesn't have to be an EPIC pulse-pounding boss fight after every mission, but after major missions?  I think there should be.  Of course, as pointed out, it's better if they fit into the story.  Collector General rather than giant mech exo-skeleton.

[squee365]

count_4 wrote...

You guys obviously didn't get the memo.
A boss fight is just too videogamey. Mass Effect 3 is art, not simply a videogame. Art. A lame boss fight would just distract from all the art in the ending.
Just look at the profound colors, symbolizing the rich canvas(your RGB monitor) for this intellectual epiphany. Look at the deep philosophical questions the ending provokes("What have they been smoking when they wrote that crap?") or even the huge emotional and moral seduction(it makes you feel the urge to shoot at a child!) lingering underneath what just seems to be the worst writing ever encountered in story-driven video game history.
It's like the art of people like Andres Serrano. For the inexpert eye it is, quite literally I'm afraid, just crap and a rich combination of bodily fluids but if you learn to see behind the superficialities, it becomes a masterpiece.
Sure, at the end of the day it might still be pee, but arranged in a very meaningful and enlightening way.

Thats funny. A lot of people consider 'Shadow of the Colussus' "Art", and that game is a game centered around boss fights. Huh. 

[Arppis]

I hate final bosses. Especialy those we had in ME-series. They feel like busy work.

Might as well be without one.

[Arppis]

squee365 wrote...

count_4 wrote...

You guys obviously didn't get the memo.
A boss fight is just too videogamey. Mass Effect 3 is art, not simply a videogame. Art. A lame boss fight would just distract from all the art in the ending.
Just look at the profound colors, symbolizing the rich canvas(your RGB monitor) for this intellectual epiphany. Look at the deep philosophical questions the ending provokes("What have they been smoking when they wrote that crap?") or even the huge emotional and moral seduction(it makes you feel the urge to shoot at a child!) lingering underneath what just seems to be the worst writing ever encountered in story-driven video game history.
It's like the art of people like Andres Serrano. For the inexpert eye it is, quite literally I'm afraid, just crap and a rich combination of bodily fluids but if you learn to see behind the superficialities, it becomes a masterpiece.
Sure, at the end of the day it might still be pee, but arranged in a very meaningful and enlightening way.

Thats funny. A lot of people consider 'Shadow of the Colussus' "Art", and that game is a game centered around boss fights. Huh. 

Yep, but there the gameplay was builded around these big fights with colosus. Your gameplay mechanics were made for it. But most boss fights just do feel video-gamey.

[Dendio1]

I liked the human reaper boss fight. It seemed so epic towering over me. I had saved my Cain for the final fight, would have been really disappointed if I never got that chance to fire it one shot style into its left eye.

I also loved the ending sequence for mass effect 2. I was pulling for them to get out of the base with the epic music going. As the scene played out I kept thinking about everything i did to get them ready. I hoped that I didnt miss anything. Shepard made the jump, joker came out guns blazing.

Top it off with shepard looking out at the challenging reaper threat. One of the best endings ever

Modifié par Dendio1, 13 avril 2012 - 06:45 .

[squee365]

Arppis wrote...

I hate final bosses. Especialy those we had in ME-series. They feel like busy work.

Might as well be without one.

The boss fight with Saren is one of my favorite video game moments...

[jumpingkaede]

Arppis wrote...

Yep, but there the gameplay was builded around these big fights with colosus. Your gameplay mechanics were made for it. But most boss fights just do feel video-gamey.

I really just don't get what that means.  

What does it mean to be "video-gamey"?  

Having your actions run up a high score that affects your ending somehow?  

[DiegoProgMetal]

 I don't think a boss fight just to have a boss fight **cough**Dragon Age 2**cough** is necessarily good. But some kind of final stand against Harbinger would be nice, even if just a cutscene. An example: what if the crucible were capable of doing what it does (control or destroy) to every reaper. Except for Harbinger, who (here goes my fan-fic) was created even  before the Citadel, Catalyst, and of course the Crucible by God knows who. So instead of fighting a Reaper armada, the fleets around Earth would have to fight only Harbie. Where Harbie would show how powerful it is, by putting a though fight all by himself against the Sword Fleet. And the outcome would depend on some previously made choices and your EMS. With bad choices and low EMS, everyone (including, Shepard and the Normandy) would have to make the ultimate sacrifice to defeat Harbie. As for Synthesis, I refuse to accept that space magic bs.... But I'm sure Bioware writers would be good enough to make something like what I just said even in the Synthesis ending.... And would leave the question: where did Harbinger came from?  Thus, leaving the path open to "speculation" and a new threath for ME4.

He*l, I'm a computer programmer, not a writer... But I really think that the 15 minutes of thought I put into this option is still better than just leaving everyone on a "WTF!?!" feeling.

Modifié par DiegoProgMetal, 13 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[squee365]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Yep, but there the gameplay was builded around these big fights with colosus. Your gameplay mechanics were made for it. But most boss fights just do feel video-gamey.

I really just don't get what that means.  

What does it mean to be "video-gamey"?  

Having your actions run up a high score that affects your ending somehow?  

How dare a VIDEO GAME be like a VIDEO GAME. 

[Arppis]

squee365 wrote...

Arppis wrote...

I hate final bosses. Especialy those we had in ME-series. They feel like busy work.

Might as well be without one.

The boss fight with Saren is one of my favorite video game moments...

Well, matter of opinion ofcourse. I just always felt like having a enemy who is a bullet sponge or have video gamey' way of destroying him (do this thing 3 times) is very imersion breaking most of the time.

[AllThatJazz]

 I'm with Allan on this issue. I would love a confrontation with Harbinger, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't want it to necessarily lead to fisticuffs (I am, however, intrigued as to how fisticuffs with a Reaper would work ). A conversation would work just as well. Some of my favourite games have ways of avoiding a fight, or the fight not being terribly 'bossy' - the best ending of Planescape Torment, my favourite ending of New Vegas, Uncharted 3.

Boss fights, on the other hand, I've almost always found very disappointing and kind of boring. Human Reaper, Saren reaper, Bioshock, Deus Ex HR, Morrowind, Skyrim. Big preview, little show. Of all the games I've played, only Alpha Protocol and  Baldurs Gate 2 stand out to me as having boss fights I actually enjoyed. Also possibly Origins just because of the epicness (though I found it a bit easy). 

[Barbarossa2010]

legion999 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

But Allan, in FONV you did fight a boss at the end, more or less... at least in most endings.

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

I love New Vegas but I always found Speech to be a bit 'overpowered'. I'd like it more if you had to pick dialogue that would appeal to the character you were talking to and have a high enough speech skill. But I'm going off topic.

I would like a confrontation with Harbinger. It doesn'thave to be a boss fight.

Yeah, talking down the Legate was absolutely amazing in NV...of course it required a speech skill of 100.  Didn't get that until I'd played all DLCs (which were more amazing).  But still the option to fight or go through a real speech gut check was a fantastic way to end the game.

Having said that, I think the problem with ME3, was not so much the lack of a boss fight at the end, but the absence of a credible (in my view anyway) antagonist to have it out with for a finale.  As it was, Shepard became, more or less, a schlep, nearly mute, completely out of character, and passive (again in my view) with the newly introduced Star Child.

It was not satisfying at all, and for Mass Effect that is virtually unforgivable.  A showdown with Harbinger, the antagonist we knew so well, who delighted in hurting us, who we had a final (It's you or us) conversation with at the end of Arrival, would have (1) made more narrative/plot sense, and (2) been infinitely more satsifying than a, strange and blatantly contrived gotcha moment, right at the point where we are looking for our emotional release from the story.

Boss "fights" aren't absolutely necessary, but it would have been much better received than what we got. 

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 13 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[Tooneyman]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This may not be the most popular opinion, but I hope there's no boss fight.

I don't hate boss fights, but some of my favourite endings are where I end up not fighting the boss (Fallout, PST, FONV, heck even Ultima VII). I don't think it's as necessary for a story based game. I enjoyed the endings of ME1 and ME2, but the boss fights were weaker parts for me. Convincing Saren to take his own life would have been a fitting end but we still get put into a boss fight. ME2's proto-reaper seemed to be a boss fight because games need boss fights. I would have been fine just destroying the collector base.

That doesn't mean there doesn't need to be a confrontation with an antagonist, but running around shooting or doing some sort of fight with a gimmick doesn't really appeal to me. If there's a battle, I'd prefer for it to be more of a puzzle.

JMO.

See that's the thing. Why not have a boss fight as an options to those who want it. Maybe people wanted to kill the illusive man in an old western style shootout or go inside Harbinger and take him down piece by piece. There is nothing wrong with options.   Heck, I wrote my own level setups with the story and made doing the boss fight an option. It wasn't forced and it still had three endings. =D

Check it out it might just hit your fancy.
 
I think everyone likes options. https://docs.google....LBVw/edit?pli=1

[Montana]

But there was a final boss fight!

His name was Marauder Shields.
Never forget that he died trying to save you from the ending.

[squee365]

Arppis wrote...

squee365 wrote...

Arppis wrote...

I hate final bosses. Especialy those we had in ME-series. They feel like busy work.

Might as well be without one.

The boss fight with Saren is one of my favorite video game moments...

Well, matter of opinion ofcourse. I just always felt like having a enemy who is a bullet sponge or have video gamey' way of destroying him (do this thing 3 times) is very imersion breaking most of the time.

But its a video game...

[77boy84]

jumpingkaede wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

Sure, you can have boss fights, and for a game with so much action, they're needed for an occasional break in the pace of shooting mooks, but when I think of Mass Effect, I don't think of shooting saren husk because we need the obligatory boss fight, or shooting human reaper because we need that obligatory boss fight.

I think of talking down wrex, and the conversation with sovereign, and everything with mordin in his loyalty mission etc. The powerful moments that came from talking and knowing the characters, not from shooting bosses.

No one bought into Mass Effect because they wanted to have some awesome boss fights. That's not what Mass Effect is, and that's never what it is.

The conversation with TIM was a fantastic moment, and a better reflection of what Mass Effect is than fighting Saren or the Human Reaper. It's probably the one decision about the ending I actually like.

There are moving emotional moments, which  as you say are memorable.  There are also exciting adrenaline charged moments.  That's fighting down a Thresher Maw, or taking out a Geth Colossus on foot, or the entire Suicide Mission (pretty much).

Mass Effect is both.  When I talk about Mass Effect, you're right, I don't talk about the action sequences because that's something that needs to be experienced.  That's what makes videogame such a great medium for storytelling, IMO.  

You can watch Shepard onscreen doing things in cutscenes.  But that's not the same feeling as controlling Shepard and ducking into cover with a sliver of health left and out of medigels and your entire squad down, and popping out of cover and dropping the last remaining Geth Prime to complete the mission.  It's why Mass Effect is much better as a game than a movie.  It's why so many gamers hated the Kai Leng fight scenes because the game is taking Shepard out of your hands and forcing you simply witness things happening.

The TIM fight is you watching Shepard do things.  You aren't really doing anything.  And the only feeling I came out of it with was boredom because I had heard the same discussion before.  With Saren.  (And also I knew that TIM was wrong, which he was... except when he turned out to be correct.)

Are you debating with him?  I gues you're supposed to be.  But a debate like that should have been handled more like the Phoenix Wright series.  Poking holes in his logic, catching him in mistruths, then changing his mind.  I don't know about you but I didn't experience too much of that.

So... agree to disagree. 

You're not really watching anything. You're still controlling Shepard, you're just controlling what he says and how he reacts instead of where he shoots.

I think, part of the reason I'd rather not have a boss fight is because Mass Effect's boss fights just weren't very good to begin with. Saren's boss fight is vastly over shadowed by the final conversation with him, and just felt tacked on. The Human Reaper was just silly, but then again, I think the suicide mission DID need something silly and huge to help emphasize that hey, it's a suicide mission.

The boss fights are the weakest thing about the game. None of them stand out as anything good, and really, that's why the powerful moments in the game all come from the actual character interaction, because those parts were actually amazing, and not tacked on for the sake of putting in a boss fight.