292 réponses à ce sujet

[jumpingkaede]

AllThatJazz wrote...

Some of my favourite games have ways of avoiding a fight, or the fight not being terribly 'bossy' - the best ending of Planescape Torment, my favourite ending of New Vegas, Uncharted 3.

Uncharted 3 had a "boss fight" at nearly every juncture...

Don't want to spoiler the game for anyone, but there was definitely a boss fight.   A very, very poorly done boss fight lol IMO but a boss fight nonetheless.

77boy84 wrote...

You're not really watching anything. You're still controlling Shepard, you're just controlling what he says and how he reacts instead of where he shoots.

I think, part of the reason I'd rather not have a boss fight is because Mass Effect's boss fights just weren't very good to begin with. Saren's boss fight is vastly over shadowed by the final conversation with him, and just felt tacked on. The Human Reaper was just silly, but then again, I think the suicide mission DID need something silly and huge to help emphasize that hey, it's a suicide mission.

The boss fights are the weakest thing about the game. None of them stand out as anything good, and really, that's why the powerful moments in the game all come from the actual character interaction, because those parts were actually amazing, and not tacked on for the sake of putting in a boss fight.

You're watching it.  Are you participating in the dialogue to any extent?  It's just TIM talking to you and you decide if you want him to shoot himself (which you can't even do unless you hit some obscure flags earlier in the game) or whether you shoot him yourself.

You might think it was an incredibly emotional experience; I found it lackluster.

Like I said.  We disagree.  Without intending to sound too condescending, do you play the game on story/casual mode?  

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 13 avril 2012 - 06:53 .

[FridgeRaider88]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

But Allan, in FONV you did fight a boss at the end, more or less... at least in most endings.

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

Wow, it's almost like you had choices. You know, in the way that you could approach it differently and have a completely different experience. Why don't more people do that?

[AllThatJazz]

jumpingkaede wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Some of my favourite games have ways of avoiding a fight, or the fight not being terribly 'bossy' - the best ending of Planescape Torment, my favourite ending of New Vegas, Uncharted 3.

Uncharted 3 had a "boss fight" at nearly every juncture...

Don't want to spoiler the game for anyone, but there was definitely a boss fight.   A very, very poorly done boss fight lol IMO but a boss fight nonetheless.

I meant the very last one, which was more a series of QTEs than a 'proper' boss fight, iirc. I actually preferred that (despite not liking QTEs very much generally), and then the last bit of gameplay being something else. Sorry, should have clarified.

[TMJfin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This may not be the most popular opinion, but I hope there's no boss fight.

I don't hate boss fights, but some of my favourite endings are where I end up not fighting the boss

I'm with you on this one. IMO it would've been so cool if in Mass Effect you could talk Saren down and that's that. I was so happy on my first playtrough when I got Saren to shoot himself and was like "yeah, this is how you do ending". But then of course, Saren the great frog came alive

[CJMissen]

issue being Allan that to satisfy people, there's want of a choice. I'd love skipping fights, but I'd love getting through them all the same too. IF WELL DONE.

[jumpingkaede]

AllThatJazz wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Some of my favourite games have ways of avoiding a fight, or the fight not being terribly 'bossy' - the best ending of Planescape Torment, my favourite ending of New Vegas, Uncharted 3.

Uncharted 3 had a "boss fight" at nearly every juncture...

Don't want to spoiler the game for anyone, but there was definitely a boss fight.   A very, very poorly done boss fight lol IMO but a boss fight nonetheless.

I meant the very last one, which was more a series of QTEs than a 'proper' boss fight, iirc. I actually preferred that (despite not liking QTEs very much generally), and then the last bit of gameplay being something else. Sorry, should have clarified.

Haha since the cat's out of the bag.  Yeah, QTE is annoying.  But that's a boss fight in the sense that you're being challenged with something difficult that you need to overcome to end the game.  What about Uncharted 2?  It had a proper boss fight as well and I thought that game was the GOTY.

[varteral6162]

"Ah yes a final boss fights in ME3 we have dismissed that rumor"

[LightweightJustice]

TMJfin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This may not be the most popular opinion, but I hope there's no boss fight.

I don't hate boss fights, but some of my favourite endings are where I end up not fighting the boss

I'm with you on this one. IMO it would've been so cool if in Mass Effect you could talk Saren down and that's that. I was so happy on my first playtrough when I got Saren to shoot himself and was like "yeah, this is how you do ending". But then of course, Saren the great frog came alive

How about an option to talk down the Archdemon in DA, mmm?

[jumpingkaede]

LightweightJustice wrote...

TMJfin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This may not be the most popular opinion, but I hope there's no boss fight.

I don't hate boss fights, but some of my favourite endings are where I end up not fighting the boss

I'm with you on this one. IMO it would've been so cool if in Mass Effect you could talk Saren down and that's that. I was so happy on my first playtrough when I got Saren to shoot himself and was like "yeah, this is how you do ending". But then of course, Saren the great frog came alive

How about an option to talk down the Archdemon in DA, mmm?

Don't... even... joke.

[Orthodox Infidel]

 I don't know if the game really needs a "boss fight" or not (I could go either way), but I think what they tried to do with The Illusive Man right at the end doesn't work because he just isn't a big enough villain to have a final confrontation with. The fate of the entire galaxy is at stake, so we need to confront somebody who matches the scale of the conflict. The only individual characters who are that "big" are Harbinger and Starbrat.

[77boy84]

jumpingkaede wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

You're not really watching anything. You're still controlling Shepard, you're just controlling what he says and how he reacts instead of where he shoots.

I think, part of the reason I'd rather not have a boss fight is because Mass Effect's boss fights just weren't very good to begin with. Saren's boss fight is vastly over shadowed by the final conversation with him, and just felt tacked on. The Human Reaper was just silly, but then again, I think the suicide mission DID need something silly and huge to help emphasize that hey, it's a suicide mission.

The boss fights are the weakest thing about the game. None of them stand out as anything good, and really, that's why the powerful moments in the game all come from the actual character interaction, because those parts were actually amazing, and not tacked on for the sake of putting in a boss fight.

You're watching it.  Are you participating in the dialogue to any extent?  It's just TIM talking to you and you decide if you want him to shoot himself (which you can't even do unless you hit some obscure flags earlier in the game) or whether you shoot him yourself.

You might think it was an incredibly emotional experience; I found it lackluster.

Like I said.  We disagree.  Without intending to sound too condescending, do you play the game on story/casual mode?  

I played the game on RPG mode.

And whatever, I guess we'll do that whole agree to disagree thing. No point arguing in circles.

[TMJfin]

LightweightJustice wrote...

TMJfin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This may not be the most popular opinion, but I hope there's no boss fight.

I don't hate boss fights, but some of my favourite endings are where I end up not fighting the boss

I'm with you on this one. IMO it would've been so cool if in Mass Effect you could talk Saren down and that's that. I was so happy on my first playtrough when I got Saren to shoot himself and was like "yeah, this is how you do ending". But then of course, Saren the great frog came alive

How about an option to talk down the Archdemon in DA, mmm?

Well... mmm... What the heck, why not? But on the serious note, totally different story. I don't hate boss fights and Archdemon suited very well in the end of DA. Also, IMO, if you could'nt talk Saren down and only then had to fight him would've been great.

[DocDoomII]

The final boss is the actual ending, and we lost the fight since they are not gonna throw it away for a new one that has sense.

[AllThatJazz]

jumpingkaede wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

jumpingkaede wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

Some of my favourite games have ways of avoiding a fight, or the fight not being terribly 'bossy' - the best ending of Planescape Torment, my favourite ending of New Vegas, Uncharted 3.

Uncharted 3 had a "boss fight" at nearly every juncture...

Don't want to spoiler the game for anyone, but there was definitely a boss fight.   A very, very poorly done boss fight lol IMO but a boss fight nonetheless.

I meant the very last one, which was more a series of QTEs than a 'proper' boss fight, iirc. I actually preferred that (despite not liking QTEs very much generally), and then the last bit of gameplay being something else. Sorry, should have clarified.

Haha since the cat's out of the bag.  Yeah, QTE is annoying.  But that's a boss fight in the sense that you're being challenged with something difficult that you need to overcome to end the game.  What about Uncharted 2?  It had a proper boss fight as well and I thought that game was the GOTY.

Better than the first game's final boss, I'll give it that. The problem I had with it is the one I have with so many boss fights, including the first Uncharted game, though to a lesser extent - it's horribly frustrating until you learn the 'trick' to it, at which point it's a cakewalk. It wasn't the worst boss fight I've played, though, by a long way, and a fantastic game overall. Actually my main problem with that boss was that I didn't have any particular feeling for him - I was waaaay more pee'd off at ... can't remember his name now ... Uncharted Alistair than the Russian bloke. I think that partly why I remember Irenicus as one of the better bosses - in almost equal measure I hated him and felt sorry for him, which made for an interesting battle.

[WeAreLegionWTF]

I miss harbinger...

[httinks2006]

I know! You can fight The Illusive Man! He can blow second hand smoke in your face for about 10 years, until you finally get cancer and die that way!!

What is this hang-up with having an end-boss?

Seriously.

I really don't get it.

Queue everyone calling me stupid in

3
2
1

not going call you stupid you have your opinion.

This is mine .

I've played rpgs forever . they're 90% or more of what I play in video games.

I remember one of my most epic battles. I was friends with an apartment manager who up until I got to know him he never played console video games just pc games .
He would borrow my rpgs because of course I never traded them in and have them all in a collection.
He was playing final fantasy 8 , for the life of him he could not beat the end boss so he called me over to give it a go .
Its been a while since ive played it so as I was about thirty minutes to an hour into the final battle one of my three party members went down which just left me ironically with the main character and his love interest .I didn't remember if you didn't bring them right back up they were gone for good my first reaction was hgjhor ehtorehoer utooer gt this fjhgjh fjh gj , but I continued .
I was getting spells blown away left and right , barely getting invulnerable moon up in time and hitting Squalls ultimate attack (which lucky I had my friend get earlier in the game)
It took everything we had but you know what we won I did it one of my best ever final boss fights
if Bioware is going make it a staple of talking us to death or us talking the final boss to death

I'll never end up buying their games in the future , rpgs have always been for me leveling up building your characters for the final battle . my play through goes one time through first for story second time through for a complete play through and sidequests . and until recently multiple play throughs for different endings.

side note this friends first rpg he played was a grandia title which he played for 223 hours because at that time he built up his characters he hack and slashed himself to the end boss (though we all know you traditionally can not hack and slash an end boss) so he came to me and when i looked at his characters he didn't add any bonus powers or buffs to them so when i did this and showed him he went back to the end boss and beat him in ten minutes . (you can imagine how buffed his characters were with 223 hours invested ))

I said this in another forum on suggestion on a better ending I'll say it again I NEVER

[Allan Schumacher]

Tali-vas-normandy wrote...

Sir Allan How would we convince Harbringer to leave Earth alone just by talking to it?

That was just the solution presented in FONV.  That I was able to talk my way out doesn't mean that that should be the proposed solution for any ME3 confrontation with Harbinger.  (Although I can imagine some plausible ways it could work).

PistolPete7556 wrote...
But there are final bosses in the Dragon Age games? So...is a video game a video game without some type of boss?

Yeah there are final bosses in Dragon Age games.  I don't think that that means boss fights are required in order to make a video game a video game.

I'd argue that still is a boss fight, just not one that resaults in combat.

That's fair.  When I think of the term boss fight I typically imagine something more like what DEHR had, but it's not specifically a requirement.  I thought the "conversation fights" in DEHR were interesting though.

[jumpingkaede]

77boy84 wrote...

And whatever, I guess we'll do that whole agree to disagree thing. No point arguing in circles.

Well, both our thoughts are out there.  We're clearly not going to convince each other; it's more for other posters to read and chime in. 

RPG mode is the regular mode, yes?  I ask because sometimes there are games where the story is interesting but the action/gameplay actually does suck and contributes nothing.  Then I turn down the difficulty just to muck through it.  

I agree that Mass Effect without the story and characters is just... I guess Gears of War, but the two work hand-in-hand and generally to good effect.  Maybe not equally, but 60/40.  Maybe 65/35.  Where the series hits low-points is where it completely abandons one for the other.  

The ME2 boss could be an example of 0/100 where you have a nonsensical boss for combat that doesn't really fit into the story.

The ME3 "boss" is 100/0 the other way.

[legion999]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Yeah, talking down the Legate was absolutely amazing in NV...of course it required a speech skill of 100.  Didn't get that until I'd played all DLCs (which were more amazing).  But still the option to fight or go through a real speech gut check was a fantastic way to end the game.

Having said that, I think the problem with ME3, was not so much the lack of a boss fight at the end, but the absence of a credible (in my view anyway) antagonist to have it out with for a finale.  As it was, Shepard became, more or less, a schlep, nearly mute, completely out of character, and passive (again in my view) with the newly introduced Star Child.

It was not satisfying at all, and for Mass Effect that is virtually unforgivable.  A showdown with Harbinger, the antagonist we knew so well, who delighted in hurting us, who we had a final (It's you or us) conversation with at the end of Arrival, would have (1) made more narrative/plot sense, and (2) been infinitely more satsifying than a, strange and blatantly contrived gotcha moment, right at the point where we are looking for our emotional release from the story.

Boss "fights" aren't absolutely necessary, but it would have been much better received than what we got. 

I especially liked the confrontation with the General after the Legate. And the DLC was amazing.

Anyways I agree. Having Harbinger as such a clear antagonist for ME2 and then having him appear for 30 secomds in ME3 was mind boogling.

[httinks2006]

want to talk to an end boss then it ends , I want to fight for an ending let it be to the death of my character or the world or as popular termed rainbows and bunnies

[WeAreLegionWTF]

whether you shoot it out with harbinger or not really doesnt matter to me. But the fact that a major antagonist pretty much is forgotten about after being such a nusiance in the last game, and that he and shepard don't even exchange a single line really bothers me. why did they even bother having him in arrival? or the 2nd game at all for that matter?

[jumpingkaede]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Yeah there are final bosses in Dragon Age games.  I don't think that that means boss fights are required in order to make a video game a video game.

That's where it gets interesting, no?  So what do you need in a videogame? 

It might be a matter of expectations.  Story and character goodness aside, Mass Effect as a game is setup to have boss fights IMO.  Shepard isn't an orator or a politician, he's a soldier*.  Charisma aside, he's also exceptional at just killing things.

Depriving him of a final boss to fight was an odd decision.  Even when Shepard uses his words he does it sort of an obvious way.  Him beating TIM at TIM's own game, if anything, was a little unrealistic.  Is he saying something that TIM doesn't already know or didn't already consider?  Shepard's contribution to the "debate" if I recall correctly was mostly along the lines of:

"You're indoctrinated!!"

TIM:  "Huh.  I never realized until you said it to me just now."

(Not verbatim).

*Or Infiltrator, Vanguard, Adept, Sentinel, Engineer. 

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 13 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[DiegoProgMetal]

Well maybe nobody thought my idea was good, maybe nobody read my post due to the forum FTL drives being engaged, but I'd really love to know your opinions about my "take" on this, including Mr. Allan's (please, don't ask me to write your last name ), even if your opinions are just "didn't like it".

So, here I go again, quoting myself. Don't worry guys, wont do it again. Was just curious what were your thoughts on my take for "boss battle".

DiegoProgMetal wrote...

 I don't think a boss fight just to have a boss fight **cough**Dragon Age 2**cough** is necessarily good. But some kind of final stand against Harbinger would be nice, even if just a cutscene. An example: what if the crucible were capable of doing what it does (control or destroy) to every reaper. Except for Harbinger, who (here goes my fan-fic) was created even  before the Citadel, Catalyst, and of course the Crucible by God knows who. So instead of fighting a Reaper armada, the fleets around Earth would have to fight only Harbie. Where Harbie would show how powerful it is, by putting a though fight all by himself against the Sword Fleet. And the outcome would depend on some previously made choices and your EMS. With bad choices and low EMS, everyone (including, Shepard and the Normandy) would have to make the ultimate sacrifice to defeat Harbie. As for Synthesis, I refuse to accept that space magic bs.... But I'm sure Bioware writers would be good enough to make something like what I just said even in the Synthesis ending.... And would leave the question: where did Harbinger came from?  Thus, leaving the path open to "speculation" and a new threath for ME4.

He*l, I'm a computer programmer, not a writer... But I really think that the 15 minutes of thought I put into this option is still better than just leaving everyone on a "WTF!?!" feeling.

Modifié par DiegoProgMetal, 13 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

iorveth1271 wrote...

But Allan, in FONV you did fight a boss at the end, more or less... at least in most endings.

And I loved that I didn't actually have to fight him

Depending on how you built your character, there are ways to completely skip the boss fight.  I was able to use my Speech skill IIRC.

I never had to fight that guy.... I saw the Legate from a distance, mined the road, and hit him with a fat man. I am the harbinger for your destruction. Still being a what he was he managed to survive with a sliver of health, and we did have the conversation. We fought and I put a missile up his arse, proving once again that few problems can't be solved with large explosions.

--------------------------------------------------
If they're going to do a Deus Ex ending do one but get rid of Starkid and use Avina (it's been with us throughout the game series -- yes it's ripping off DEHR, but they've already done that). They won't though.

but in ME3 I really wish there was a conversation with Hackett at the panel after that thing docked instead of the starchild, Avina explains the choices to Shepard... and there is a fourth choice... take down the reaper shields and try for a military victory (<3800 EMS reapers win (this low due to people w/ poor INet connections); >3800 <5000 Stalemate -- reapers withdraw to darkspace; > 5000 victory with major losses; >6000 decisive victory) -- BW really needs to patch this to 75% galactic readiness as default after the first chapter of the game. If they did this make the fourth choice open at 5250.

Shepard: "EDI, open a channel to Admiral Hackett. I'm at the control panel, and I'm having to make some choices that I really don't want to make. I need to know something first."

Hackett: "Hurry Shepard."

Shepard: "Can you beat these guys?" (if you have over say 5500 EMS this should be a "Yes, but it's going to be very costly" and opens choice #4 -- take down reaper shields only, to which Shepard responds: "What if I took down their shields?" "Yes/No" (Yes) "Then when I give you the signal hit 'em and hit 'em with every thing you've got." (No) "No. We've taken a beating out here.")

For other three choices -- Shepard: "Then disengage. Order fleets back to their home systems. On the double. Sir. Just do it. Shepard... Out."

The remaining 3 choices are the same, but activated from the panel. Blue -- control choice panel implants Shepard. Then you say your goodbyes to Anderson. Shepard looks at arm... fade to black...

Space battle cutscenes -- Hackett narrates end results what happened to everyone... and Shepard? Shepard became a legend.

End game. (The Stargazer/child scene only appears on the Red Blue and Green choices, unless the contract was written to appear on ALL endings -- it's probably spelled out in the contract.)

Basically people would only be choosing red, blue, and green if under 5250 EMS, making the military victory over the reapers canon and allowing for the mass relays to survive and setting up for ME 4 about 300 yrs in the future -- new cast, NO SHEPARD, new story, one or two new civilizations filling the vacuum (Yahg and maybe one other). Visit the Shepard/NS2 Normandy Memorial on the Citadel.

Maybe we go intergalactic exploring?

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 13 avril 2012 - 07:30 .

[77boy84]

jumpingkaede wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

And whatever, I guess we'll do that whole agree to disagree thing. No point arguing in circles.

Well, both our thoughts are out there.  We're clearly not going to convince each other; it's more for other posters to read and chime in. 

RPG mode is the regular mode, yes?  I ask because sometimes there are games where the story is interesting but the action/gameplay actually does suck and contributes nothing.  Then I turn down the difficulty just to muck through it.  

I agree that Mass Effect without the story and characters is just... I guess Gears of War, but the two work hand-in-hand and generally to good effect.  Maybe not equally, but 60/40.  Maybe 65/35.  Where the series hits low-points is where it completely abandons one for the other.  

The ME2 boss could be an example of 0/100 where you have a nonsensical boss for combat that doesn't really fit into the story.

The ME3 "boss" is 100/0 the other way.

RPG mode is the regular mode, yeah. The action and gameplay wasn't bad or anything, don't get me wrong, it's just none of the boss fights were really stand out.

I think overall, the boss fights should have worked more to integrate into the story. The Rannoch Reaper stands out for me, as the most memorable boss fight in the trilogy, because it wasn't like the rest of the boss fights in the trilogy, and managed to tie in perfectly with the story, and helped establish that yeah, the reapers were killable, and we're not totally out of the war.

Stuff like Kai Leng, or Benezia weren't really like that. For the most part, the bosses in the Mass Effect trilogy were just supoerpowered mooks, which really sucks for boss fights, if you ask me.

Maybe they could improve the TIM conversation, or give us a final encounter with Harbinger, but I really don't think we need a boss fight at the end.