292 réponses à ce sujet

[DaosX]

I don't think boss fights are really necessary. It seems like such a dated VG concept that has persisted through the years. If ME3 Ext DLC ends without a final boss fight or a fight against Marauder Shields, I wouldn't really mind it.

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

SKRemaks wrote...

I was too busy being blown away by the ending, (and I mean that in a good way) to pay attention to the fact that there wasn't some arbitrary boss battle being thrown at me.
Different is good. 

Different is not good.  Different is a neutral concept.  It can be good or bad, and has no propensity for one or the other. Cancer is a different state from normal healthy cells.  

Can we stop our schools from teaching kids nonsensical and vapid concepts like "different is good'?

[jumpingkaede]

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

SKRemaks wrote...

I was too busy being blown away by the ending, (and I mean that in a good way) to pay attention to the fact that there wasn't some arbitrary boss battle being thrown at me.
Different is good. 

Different is not good.  Different is a neutral concept.  It can be good or bad, and has no propensity for one or the other. Cancer is a different state from normal healthy cells.  

Can we stop our schools from teaching kids nonsensical and vapid concepts like "different is good'?

You can be anything you want to be if you put your mind to it.

[bboynexus]

Boss fights are so mundane and derivative.

[Atraiyu Wrynn]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Atraiyu Wrynn wrote...

SKRemaks wrote...

I was too busy being blown away by the ending, (and I mean that in a good way) to pay attention to the fact that there wasn't some arbitrary boss battle being thrown at me.
Different is good. 

Different is not good.  Different is a neutral concept.  It can be good or bad, and has no propensity for one or the other. Cancer is a different state from normal healthy cells.  

Can we stop our schools from teaching kids nonsensical and vapid concepts like "different is good'?

You can be anything you want to be if you put your mind to it.

I see what you did there. 

[leighzard]

I fully support additional content that includes shooting TIM in between the eyes. I'm still angry that I after I talked him into killing himself, he didn't have the decency to cybernetically resurrect himself so I could kill him again. Saren was so much cooler.

[idunhavaname]

I don't really like the idea of a boss fight for ME3 tbh. Lets look at the options...

1. Harbinger- how the hell are you going to fight a capital Reaper size dreadnaught? It's just not realistic.
2. Illusive Man- I personally love TIM apperance in end scene and his paragon Saren moment. Even the Reneagde "I wish you could see Earth as I do Shepard" is perfect. It showed that he was human regardless of being indoctrinated almost depicted as a fallen hero.

[Adranathz]

ME didnt need a final boss, just need a main antagonist
Harbinger fullfill that role in the second game, and hes a random reaper in ME3

[Thore2k10]

yeah, no real boss battle needed. TIM is no material (scheming in the dark and stuff) for a classic boss fight and harbinger is too powerful to be fought on foot.

more like a scene where shepard has to fight and survive while the fleet and the normandy fight harbinger in the background! similar to tuchanka just more "bombastic"

[cuzIMgood]

Final boss's are overrated. Usually feel forced and too easy to beat. I don't really think they should add one.

[Ultra Prism]

Imagine it you took control of Normandy SR2 and fought Harbinger ... that would be awesome!

[Visserian99]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This may not be the most popular opinion, but I hope there's no boss fight.

I don't hate boss fights, but some of my favourite endings are where I end up not fighting the boss (Fallout, PST, FONV, heck even Ultima VII). I don't think it's as necessary for a story based game. I enjoyed the endings of ME1 and ME2, but the boss fights were weaker parts for me. Convincing Saren to take his own life would have been a fitting end but we still get put into a boss fight. ME2's proto-reaper seemed to be a boss fight because games need boss fights. I would have been fine just destroying the collector base.

To be fair, in all your examples (except maybe FONV, which I haven't played) there are boss fights if you want to take them.
You could fight out with the Transcendent One and the Master. And Ultima 7 may not have had a boss fight (which isn't a fair statement to begin with as the entire battle system for that game was broken) but you do end up fighting Abraham, Elizabeth, Hook, Batlin, and gargoyle who's name I don't remember. Assuming you mean U7:BG and not U7:SI.

Suffice it to say though, I do agree with you that boss fights aren't strictly necessary. But I will say confrontation with the antagonist is necessary. Which is why the conversation with the Trancendent One, especially with High Wisdom and the Bronze Sphere, is one of PST's highlights and greatest moment. Its also why I felt the biggest disappointment with ME3 for me (other than the ending) was no real confrontation with Harbinger.

Edit - By Confrontation with Harbinger, I don't necessarily mean a fight with him. I'm not entirely sure how that could plausibly be done given the scope of Harbinger himself. But I do mean a conversation, and a battle of 'wills' between Shepard and Harbinger.

Modifié par Visserian99, 13 avril 2012 - 08:21 .

[OhoniX]

I also am not a huge fan of boss fights, particularly ones that use completely different combat systems than the rest of the game. I thought that the Rannoch Reaper, for example, was quite lame. Cinematically nifty, but I didn't care to play it, and would have preferred it just be an FMV. I thought that the final "defend the missiles" encounter was plenty of climactic battle for my tastes. I had expected to have to fight through enemies on the Citadel, but they took it in a different direction and that worked too.

[StarcloudSWG]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

This may not be the most popular opinion, but I hope there's no boss fight.

I don't hate boss fights, but some of my favourite endings are where I end up not fighting the boss (Fallout, PST, FONV, heck even Ultima VII). I don't think it's as necessary for a story based game. I enjoyed the endings of ME1 and ME2, but the boss fights were weaker parts for me. Convincing Saren to take his own life would have been a fitting end but we still get put into a boss fight. ME2's proto-reaper seemed to be a boss fight because games need boss fights. I would have been fine just destroying the collector base.

That doesn't mean there doesn't need to be a confrontation with an antagonist, but running around shooting or doing some sort of fight with a gimmick doesn't really appeal to me. If there's a battle, I'd prefer for it to be more of a puzzle.

JMO.

Mass Effect 3, in its current form, does have a final boss fight. The problem is that so many gamers are conditioned to expect combat with guns and powers, that they don't recognize the nature of the fight.

That, and the conversation mechanics make it too straightforward to win.

If you had to choose your statements to the Illusive Man blindly, without the helpful aspects of positioning on the conversation wheel and the red and blue highlighting, it would've been more of a challenge.

[TekFanX]

I like Boss-Fights.
The best example I can think of is ME2.

When I came to the chamber with the human proto-reaper I thought "Oookay...why is there a Terminator hanging from the ceiling? Where is the cuddlefish-shaped reaper please? Wait...three eyes? Did the Collectors have some prothean sludge in a tupperware-box so there is an extra-eye?"
It was not a design-element I could relate with.
That thing seemed merely funny or ridiculous to me, instead of being a terrible abomination I should fear.

At least I thought so, until that huge thing crawled its way back up and stared at my Squad and my Shepard with those three glowing orbs in its skull.
The sound of it gripping to the ground like a sledge-hammer on an armor-plate, the evil gnarl of its actuators...I went from "What a joke." to "Holy crap! Where is my heavy weapon?!"

An end-boss can be like the final sprint towards the finish-line.
It can introduce a new dynamic to things you ignored before.

You need to focus once more on an enemy far worse than anything you faced so far.
You need to stay alive while trying to find a weak-point on your opponent.

Of course an end-boss is not neccessary for a game to be good, but I found few examples where an end-boss made the game worse.

[noobcannon]

i find it interesting that they said additional cutscenes and cinematics, but when asked point blank "will there be gameplay?" they play the "no comment at this time" card.

[Iakus]

 Perhaps the one and only good thing I can say about the ending is that there was no gimmicky "Shoot the weak spot, don't stand in the fire" boss fight.

I'm perfectly fine with there being no Big Bad Evil Guy to shoot at the very end.

[Bfler]

Ask yourself: Who would like Diablo without the devil as final boss?

[Allan Schumacher]

Ask yourself: Who would like Diablo without the devil as final boss?

I think that the goals of a game like Diablo differ from the goals of games like Mass Effect.

[sirisaacx]

I posted this in another thread and I'll post it here as well:


What does this add to the experience, aside from a boss fight? In the first game, the boss fight proved both that the reapers were immensely powerful, capable of not only controlling the living, but the dead as well, and showed that even if Saren committed suicide, it was futile to resist the reapers once they had gotten you within their grasp. Additionally, making him a husk is eerie, and really drives home the point that the Reapers, not the geth, were the real monsters of this war.

Conversely, in the second game, the game suffered immensely from trying to include a boss battle. Because they tried to make it something you could "fight", they changed the reaper from an awesome abstract embryo like form, to a stupid terminator. In addition, the whole fight felt contrived and shoehorned, and essentially felt like a boss battle for the sake of having a bosss battle. It was very poorly received.

So I ask you then. What does fighting the Illusive man accomplish from a narrative perspective in the third game? I think it harms us far more than it helps us. There is no longer any NEED to show us how powerful the reapers are. We already know this. There is no need to show that they can control us, as this theme has been hammered into us throughout the series.

Killing the Illusive Man without a boss fight was a great decision. He is not a man of action like Saren was. He doesn't go out and kill people himself. He sits in a room and manipulates the forces of the universe to his own willl. That's why we never get to face him directly in Mass Effect 2. Without his information and secrecy to hide behind, without cerberus, the Illusive man is just one person with big ideas. In his "control" sequence, he literally bends you to his will, and you overcoming that control is a MUCH better analogue to TIM than fighting him boss fight style.

EDIT: you may be tempted to say that fighting TIM boss fight style would further reinforce the concept of the inevitable "cycles" mentioned in the game, but I think having a scene that plays out EXACTLY as it did in the first game would cheapen the experience. The cycles are destined to repeat despite the people involved, but each one uses their strongest aspect to combat Shepard. Just like Javik was the Shepard of the Protheans and he was not exactly the same, so too should TIM not be exactly the same as Saren.

[The RPGenius]

Of all the complaints about the finale of Mass Effect 3, this is the one that makes the least sense.  Why in the WORLD would it matter in a story-based game whether or not there's a last boss fight?  There's only been like 2 or 3 boss fights in the game before the finale anyway.  Mindless battle isn't the focus, plot is.

[Thore2k10]

Bfler wrote...

Ask yourself: Who would like Diablo without the devil as final boss?

its hard to compare a hack and slash rpg which is clearly not story driven to an almost movie like rpg like mass effect!

never understood all the hype around diablo... i think its boring to do nothing else than click down some health bars of enemies.  but thats just my opinion

[Allan Schumacher]

Also, it appears the argument is being framed just like every other argument we've made so far, in that we are told by reps: 'Actually, I would rather not have [insert fan request/observation here] because [insert artistic integrity quote here].'

If that's the way my comment comes across then I think I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say.

I have no issue with a confrontation as it often makes sense with respect to the narrative. But running around shooting Harbinger or TIM or anything like that doesn't particularly interest myself as a gamer.