38 réponses à ce sujet

[Jhelzei]

I played through the main campaign years ago, but never did play through the MotB expansion. I intend to rectify that with some newfound free time. Since I no longer have my save games from the OC, can't remember many details of my NWN2 character, and MotB lets you start at 18th level, I thought I'd recreate the character I beat BG2 with. He was a 23rd level half-elf Bard Blade. The Offensive Spin ability was especially useful - basically a free haste spell, with a combat bonus, no less. Is there a 3.5e character build that could recapture the "spellsword" flavor of a Blade?

I've looked at various classes and nothing seems to quite get it. Swashbuckler/Bard/Eldritch Knight might come close. Or maybe an evenly split Swashbuckler/Bard would work, but that would severely hamper spell progression. My BG2 character never had high level spells (6th level was the max in BG2), but he had access to the full variety of low- to mid-level mage spells, not just the limited Bard spells. Maybe Swashbuckler/Wiz/Eldritch Knight? I must admit that I'm reluctant to completely abandon the Bard class.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

EDIT: Removed possible spoiler.

Modifié par Jhelzei, 07 avril 2012 - 12:01 .

[kamal_]

I think this thread should go into the MotB forum, where spoilers can go. But look into the Kaedrin prcs
http://nwn2customcon...wikidot.com/prc

[Jhelzei]

kamal, there was one possible spoiler that I removed. But the thread is intended for general feedback on a character build. I did make it through the first act of MotB, but don't want to be spoiled for the rest.

And thanks for the link, I'll check out Kaedrin's addon. However, the more mods you add, the more potential bugs arise. Similar addons for NWN made many modifications, and had more than their share of bugs.

Modifié par Jhelzei, 07 avril 2012 - 12:05 .

[kamal_]

kaedrin is the gold standard class pack for nwn2, and most people and persistant worlds it. Rest assured there are very few bugs.

Modifié par kamal_, 07 avril 2012 - 12:19 .

[nicethugbert]

Kaedrin's class Pack has a ton of bug fixes. You'll actually have a much less buggy game for using it and is worth it just for the bug fixes alone.

The epic level bard hymns are really good, especially Hymn or Reqium and Song of Reqium, which require 21 Bard levels. So, I would reccommend not multi-classing except with certain PrCs from Kaedrin's class pack that add to bard level, not just spell casting level.

Check out his forum. It has a section for user contributed builds. Also, check out the nwndb.com build repository.

[vorianxavier]

I'm thinking about playing Mysteries of Westgate soon, does it still not work with Kaedrin's pack? I'm not sure if I remember how to design a character without Kaedrin's...

[Jhelzei]

nicethugbert wrote...

Kaedrin's class Pack has a ton of bug fixes. You'll actually have a much less buggy game for using it and is worth it just for the bug fixes alone.

The epic level bard hymns are really good, especially Hymn or Reqium and Song of Reqium, which require 21 Bard levels. So, I would reccommend not multi-classing except with certain PrCs from Kaedrin's class pack that add to bard level, not just spell casting level.

Check out his forum. It has a section for user contributed builds. Also, check out the nwndb.com build repository.

Yep, I was just looking at some of the bard song bugs on the NWN2 wiki. Quite a few of them, at least as of 1.03. Not sure how many were fixed as of 1.23. I guess I will go get Kaedrin's, though I'm leery of a mod with so many tweaks.

You may well be right about sticking with a pure bard. Just need to figure out how to spec him close to my old Bard. I suppose the simplest thing would be to choose combat oriented feats (two-weapon, weapon focus and combat expertise, for example) and spell buffs. My main concern is that 3.5 edition bards have a very limited spell selection, though cure is a nice bonus.

I tried to find Mysteries of Westgate, but all the links to buy it seem dead, even from Ossian's website.

[Arkalezth]

@vorianxavier: MoW is not compatible with Kaedrin's AFAIK, and I wouldn't expect it to ever be.

@OP: Bards are usually better STR based and with a single weapon. If you want two weapons and are using Kaedrin's, you may want to take a look at Champion of the Wild.

[Haplose]

Since you're talking about MotB, and epic-level campaign, picking some divine feats with a Blackguard or a Cleric mixed in could be a fine idea. Epic Divine Might is one of the best feats around. And Divine Shield is mightily usefull with a high Charisma as well.

[ncknck]

Why is Epic Divine Might useful? It gives damage and more damage. Now i may be not seeing something but damage is easier to get to than multiple feats and levelup points required to get that damage. I mean you get flame weapon basically at the start of the game. and can get 3-4 enchantments on a weapon. All of them have huge damage values, and permanent.

[Jhelzei]

I suspect Haplose likes divine damage. IIRC, Divine Might adds divine damage to your attack, which few creatures can resist. Very handy for demi-liches. However, I'm more interested in attack bonus. It's been a while though - Divine Might could actually add to AB as well. A divine class doesn't really fit with my character for RP reasons, though.

[ncknck]

according to description its only damage.

What is possible to do is to build a dualwield DEX bard, this will also be pretty close to a bg2 blade in the looks. Dualwielding and with all that dex its like a permanent defensive spin heh. and offensive spin too, since dualwielding adds alot more attacks than in bg2. A perfect solution. Havent played though. Its a build from Gamefaqs guides. But sounds pretty intriguing.

Then there is the casting all-cha bard. huge DC, But didnt like it, all his good spells are enchantment, which is cool. What is not cool is mind-immunity, and that bards generally just didnt had sufficiently many spell casts per day to my likings, and weapon damage was bad. It was horrible.

currently im playing an Arkalezth type build, Str and a weapon. a bard/blackguard. What is cool about it that with no featspace for weapon focus, he/she can pretty much use any weapon. Which is cool. Imagine evil bard girl with holy avenger! thanks to UMD. And also some weapons are not possible to craft, and its possible to go def with shield or offence with powerattack 2h style. Attack bonus doesnt disappoint too. So far so good!

here i just uploaded a build combat bard, which im trying to build right now. Work in progress obviously, but looks fine.

Modifié par ncknck, 22 avril 2012 - 10:41 .

[Haplose]

No, Divine Might doesn't help with AB. That would be Divine Power, a Cleric level 3 spell. Or Divine Favor. Or a number of other, mostly clerical, spells.

But EDM it doesn't "simply" add damage. It adds a HUGE pile of non-resistable damage. I don't think any other effect compares really. Well maybe rogue sneak-attacks, but for them to land certain conditions must be met and many enemies are immune. It also gets multiplied on critical hits. EDM is just crazy good.
As for the AB, that's not a particularly big worry for a Bard, with Inspirations, Greater Heroism, Curse Song, Greater Magic Weapon and Curse of Impending Blades. But the damage kinda stinks, particularly on a Dex-based build.

[ncknck]

theorycrafting, dont beat me.

edm costs 5 stat points and 2 feats, very generally speaking can be compared by converting them to Str thats 5+2 str lost. Rounding up and multiplying for 2h bonus, thats +4/+6 damage permanently lost. And particularly the AB will help connect those later attacks. And each of them is carrying a +14(+8base+6from above) weapon with 3d6 enchantments of different source. And/or also 15d6 sneak attacks. 

vs situational +20 damage from edm.

Doing proper math is too complex for me, but i dont see the crazy good part here. Definitely can see its use in pvp or a random low magic module though.

Modifié par ncknck, 23 avril 2012 - 11:53 .

[Arkalezth]

3d6 enchantments are not the usual. But you can look at EDM the other way. The high CHA requirement is not a con if you get something from it.

A pure cleric don't get much use besides the extra damage, but a bard gets extra spells, a paladin/BG gets saves, and pretty much any favored soul or sorcerer gish will be close to the requisites anyway. CHA also helps things like Feint, Curse Song/Requiem in the case of bards, etc...

EDM lets you keep all these things without losing any damage compared to full STR. Yes, AB may be lower, but as Haplose said, bards shouldn't have AB problems.

Your build has Divine Shield with only 16 CHA. 3 rounds is too short to make it really useful, but reading your comments, I guess you plan on crafting on the OC so duration could be increased to a decent level. Still, I'd go for EDM and higher CHA. You gain nothing from 27 bard. And Extend is a must in my book.

[ncknck]

Heh, everyone enchants in the official game, its a given, unless specifically choose not to. Its completely overpowered. Then again it allows for nice builds.

Neither curse song or requiem are affected by charisma, only caster level and perform. However i just playtested some songs, and some lower songs are indeed affected by charisma, (Fascinate in particular), contrary to what nwn2wiki states. Perhaps these are Reeron fixes at work here, but could be indeed fixed with patches. Unfortunately i can not correctly estimate how useful Fascinate will be in later gameplay, i guess near zero, still it upps the value of Charisma a bit. Extend looks good yes, prime candidate to swap with practiced spellcaster, which ironically also prolongs stuff and affects songs, unless bugged(wiki again say it doesnt work with curse song correctly)

wiki wrote...

Curse Song
Caster Level does not incorporate any bonus from practised spellcaster

didnt bother to test though.


edit: correction disregard that, charisma upps Perform. My test was meaningless. retrying..

Modifié par ncknck, 23 avril 2012 - 02:09 .

[ncknck]

Given: patch 1.23 SoZ, lvl30 bard, cha bonus +7, perform 43 

Fascinate:
description states: Will save (DC 11 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard Charisma modifier)
wiki states: The save is only 11 + Charisma modifier, and does NOT include bard levels at all.

-expecting DC 11+15+7=35
-expecting bugged DC: 11+7=18

got DC: 18.


Haven song :
description states: Will save (DC 11 + 1/2 the bard's level + the bard Charisma modifier)
wiki states: The actual save is a will save versus 11 + 1/2 Bard's Perform Level.

expecting DC 11+15+7=35
expecting bugged DC: 11+21=32.

got DC: 32.

Conclusion:

-wiki is correct
-songs are bugged
-short of Fascinate, charisma is useless for songs.


It would be nice if someone could confirm it, maybe patching went wrong or something.

Modifié par ncknck, 23 avril 2012 - 02:32 .

[Haplose]

ncknck wrote...

theorycrafting, dont beat me.

edm costs 5 stat points and 2 feats, very generally speaking can be compared by converting them to Str thats 5+2 str lost. Rounding up and multiplying for 2h bonus, thats +4/+6 damage permanently lost. And particularly the AB will help connect those later attacks. And each of them is carrying a +14(+8base+6from above) weapon with 3d6 enchantments of different source. And/or also 15d6 sneak attacks. 

vs situational +20 damage from edm.

Doing proper math is too complex for me, but i dont see the crazy good part here. Definitely can see its use in pvp or a random low magic module though.

Well if you buff both Str and Cha, you will get triple damage effect (x1 Str and x2 Cha). Using a two-hander with an EDM build doesn't seem worth it, considering that the 2xCha damage won't get multiplied by 1,5. On the other hand, it won't get halved when attacking offhand.... Not that I'm suggesting that for your Bard.
You're unlikely to add 15d6 sneak attacks there... even if you could, that's situational... and doesn't help with undead and such at all.
3d6 are fair enough... but you can still add that 20 divine to that. 3d6 expected value is 10,5 - so if you can add pretty much always annother unblockable 20, that isn't half bad. 20 which can still be multiplied on a crit.

More Charisma can be used to boost saves (via paladin or BG levels) and to boost spells. Actually some bard spells are pretty neat - when the enemies aren't immune. AC boost via Divine Shield is invaluable as well (if short lived).

I think you have to experience EDM to see just how powerfull it is. Evenmoreso in fights against undead, spirits, elementals, golems and such.

Modifié par Haplose, 23 avril 2012 - 04:48 .

[kevL]

ncknck wrote...

It would be nice if someone could confirm it, maybe patching went wrong or something.

confirmed, per the stock spellscripts.

[ncknck]

Thanks. I take it the correct scripts are located on various PWs, each different implementation yet same, property of the admin and are guarded as a state secret. That or i hope they are nicely compiled all-in-one in Kaedrin's pack, but it doesnt have nw_s2_snghaven.nss ...

what i find really crazy is this googled link.

nwn2 release date: October 31, 2006
nw_s2_snghaven.nss: Created On: 09/12/05
Created By: Brock Heinz - OEI

int nSaveDC = 11 + GetAbilityModifier(ABILITY_CHARISMA) + GetLevelByclass(class_TYPE_BARD, oCaster)/2;


It doesnt make sense. Or have i accidentally stumbled upon such a server internals.

[kevL]

correct? they are what they are

[Jhelzei]

Thanks for all the great suggestions. A few other thoughts...we can use two weapon feats to simulate offensive spin. However, that pretty much demands a DEX build since IIRC the top level 2-weapon feat requires a 17 DEX. To simulate defensive spin there seem to be two options - Parry and Combat Expertise. Since Parry is bugged, or at least doesn't function ideally, Combat Expertise seems the better option. Improved Combat Expertise gives a -6 for opponents to hit you, somewhat similar to defensive spin's -10 to hit. This also has a minimum of 13 INT I think.

Given the DEX orientation of such a build, and my propensity for non-evil characters would it make sense to dual class with a cleric (perhaps of Oghma)? Since the focus would be DEX, and some INT, would Swashbuckler or Duellist be a sensible class to take?

[ncknck]

kevL
oh i agree, the last thing we need is a discussion on what is more "correct". Its just that the description doesnt match, which is confusing.

Jhelzei
Astonishingly, parry is not bugged. Plain attack calculations are. ( not implemented properly). As a result every skill which triggers on a per-attack basis has unwanted side effects, parry included but not limited to. i remember seeing multipage discussions about same issues with cleave. Back on the old forums. That having said - Divine Shield! its only one feat, gives more AC and is more in-line with the original spin, which too was an ability, unlike Expertise which is a triggered stance.

[Arkalezth]

ncknck wrote...

Astonishingly, parry is not bugged. Plain attack calculations are. ( not implemented properly). As a result every skill which triggers on a per-attack basis has unwanted side effects, parry included but not limited to. i remember seeing multipage discussions about same issues with cleave. Back on the old forums.

What? If you're in Parry mode, you can attack a max of three times per round. No matter if your character has 3 APR, or 16. You'll only attack 3 times if in Parry (or once or twice if you only have 1 or 2 APR). Using Parry at all is dubious, though viable at low levels. Using it with a dual wielder with lots of attacks per round is just dumb. What's wrong with Cleave?

The TWF feats require 15, 17, 19, and 25 DEX. Or 2, 6, 11, and 21 ranger levels. Swashbuckler can add some damage, but not against crit immunes. Duelist's damage doesn't work if dual wielding. And bards don't need any extra defense, they're among the best classes in the game defensively.

As I said, bards are better STR based, unless you use some Kaedrin's class. Damage on a DEX bard is not the worst in the game, but still kinda crappy. Maybe they were good in BG2, but this is a different game with different mechanics. That said, if you want this for the OC/MotB and plan to craft, there's no need to discuss further. 15d6 elemental weapons tend to render everything else as irrelevant.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 23 avril 2012 - 11:30 .

[Haplose]

If it's about MotB, I pretty much agree. Though this just goes to show how broken the crafting system is. I personally much prefer relying on character strength, rather then equipment power.

But for the OC... it will take a bit of time before you can craft that +5 +2d6 elemental weapon. Dex-based characters are in for a rough ride, especially when they meet critically immune enemies (and there's plenty).