38 réponses à ce sujet

[ncknck]

Hehe, be careful what you wish for. The same system is allowing the combat bard, and a number of other weird builds to even exist in the first place. The easier the game is the more builds are possible. Were they to "fix" the system, a bard with its -5 bab -2 from dualwield -5 from lack of feats and no damage from enchantments, would have been useless in combat. Basically only able to do something to the enemy every 5 minutes(song), edm or not. And no, buffs will not help, because they are supposed to buff the fighter, not the bard. The way it is supposed to go is a buffed full ab class, barely being able to hit an enemy. Thats balanced. Kicking the bard back to where he belongs, back rows, singing. In Nwn2 the game goes easy on difficulty. You cant criticize one aspect while ignoring the other. Dont see the problem with enchantments, just dont use. Same with AB feats and EDM, there is a choice of not picking them and still complete the game, which is great.

But like said in a balanced module edm would be pretty useless because bards dont have the AB to make it count ( oh and make it 8h rest limitation). The only reason it does damage is because enemies lack AC values, which i find a far more serious issue than the crafting system, because it affects every class.

Modifié par ncknck, 25 avril 2012 - 06:38 .

[Haplose]

Sorry, but if a Bard doesn't have a good enough AB with Courage Inspiration, Greater Heroism, Curse Song, Greater Magic Weapon, Curse of Impending Blades and possibly Feint, then a Fighter will never hit anything. The effective AB advantage of the Bard is pretty big.
It's true that a Fighter can enjoy most of the benefits as well, as long as he takes a buffbot along.... but it works both ways with March of the Legionnaire.

Modifié par Haplose, 25 avril 2012 - 08:09 .

[The Fred]

Even with just Inspire Courage, a Bard's AB lags only 1-2 points behind a Fighter's. However, he also gains a damage bonus which is better than what you'd get for the AB with Power Attack. I'm not sure whether they implement it in NWN2 but you're supposed to get a save bonus too.

The Bard is not an ideal solo character. A Bard and a Fighter will be far better than either two Bards or two Fighters.

Note that you can one- or two-hand with a Bard rather than dual-wield if you want. I think dual-wield is more efficient for a Bard than for many since you get the flat Inspire bonus to both hands. If you find you're suffering for AB you can easily forgoe that, though.

Saying that buffs won't help because you can buff the Fighter is nonsensical. You only get those buffs if you have a Bard; who they get put on doesn't matter, but that's all power which is coming from the Bard.

Saying that being barely able to hit the enemy with full AB when fully buffed is balanced also makes little sense. I'm highly in favour of challenging games, but never being able to hit makes for a slow and boring game. Balanced is more about how often you can hit them relative to how often you get hit, etc.

[Haplose]

I actually wouldn't advise dual-wielding for a typical Bard. Two issues here: being feat-starved and stat starved... of course Dex bard builds don't have one of these problems.

[Arkalezth]

The Fred wrote...

I think dual-wield is more efficient for a Bard than for many since you get the flat Inspire bonus to both hands.

Yes, but the progression is slow. You need 8 levels for IC+2, 14 for +3, 20 for +4...

War Cry and Bull's Strength also help, but a pure bard will never be a great dual wielder. You need a good amount of extra damage to make dual wielding the better option. And, as Haplose said, feats are another issue. Going for TWF might mean losing Extend or some other important feat, for basically no gain.

This has been discussed to death over the years, we're saying nothing new here.

[nicethugbert]

How about a bard/fb?

[Arkalezth]

That works (if playing all the way to 30, drop 1 level from either ranger or fighter and take bard up to 23. Or change ranger for barbarian or something else if you don't want to focus on a favored enemy).

Modifié par Arkalezth, 25 avril 2012 - 08:56 .

[Dann-J]

I've played as a bard-barian (bard / barbarian), specifically to take red dragon disciple. Powerful in combat (with the RDD ability score bonuses), but low on spells. Although I always seem to accumulate plenty of spell scrolls I never use (saving them 'for later' - but 'later' never comes). A fighter who can use scrolls or wands can be useful.

When he went on to MotB I added eldritch knight as a fourth class, and he found his spell-casting mojo again.

[Haplose]

Well adding EK certainly works... and actually helps with the AB.... but you do sacrifice your musical prowess this way... not sure if it's worth it IMVO.

[The Fred]

A one-level Bard dip to get into RDD is perfectly viable, but not really a Bard build as per say.

No, I wouldn't advise dual-wielding. In fact, I was more for rebuffing the suggestion that Bards suck because they have a dual-wield penalty... well, any dual-wielder has those issues, and if anything Bards do it better at least as far as the base damage goes with Inspire.

Technically you get more bang for your Inspiration buck with dual-wielding, but I personally probably wouldn't bother.

[Arkalezth]

The Fred wrote...
Technically you get more bang for your Inspiration buck with dual-wielding, but I personally probably wouldn't bother.

Sure, extra damage on both hands is better than just on one, but that doesn't mean that the overall damage is better, and that's what counts.

EK is usually a poor choice for bards, yes. Normally it doesn't give you a better AB since as a bard you'd progress inspirations, maybe a point or two in a few cases, but rarely worth the loss. The only time EK may be worth it is if you want to get an extra attack per round (example), but an attack more or less with a huge AB penalty is, again, rarely worth the effort.

[ncknck]

The Fred wrote...

Even with just Inspire Courage, a Bard's AB lags only 1-2 points behind a Fighter's. However, he also gains a damage bonus which is better than what you'd get for the AB with Power Attack. I'm not sure whether they implement it in NWN2 but you're supposed to get a save bonus too.

The Bard is not an ideal solo character. A Bard and a Fighter will be far better than either two Bards or two Fighters.

A bard has a -12 AB difference compared to a fighter. See above. The effect of his damage buffs is limited because of that, unless exploited by playing a module which doesnt require having an adequate AB at all. Me, i prefer more crafting, just as exploitable.

Saying that buffs won't help because you can buff the Fighter is nonsensical. You only get those buffs if you have a Bard; who they get put on doesn't matter, but that's all power which is coming from the Bard.

Saying that being barely able to hit the enemy with full AB when fully buffed is balanced also makes little sense. I'm highly in favour of challenging games, but never being able to hit makes for a slow and boring game. Balanced is more about how often you can hit them relative to how often you get hit, etc.

Thats a logical error. Needing a team to beat the game is neither slow or boring. Nor sense breaking. Where is the problem of buffing the fighter and he kills the enemy. Pretty much every game works like this, and i dont see anyone complaining. Melee mages and bards on the other hand... well 

Arkalezth
I forgot. Parry works. It correctly parries 3 times a round, because characters in nwn2 only have 3 attacks per round, anything more is hacked-in. Ironically "fixing" parry can only be made by breaking it. Ofcourse with basic general attack function being broken, it would probably lead to even worse results. Bioware has tried to tie animations to actual attacks and failed pretty badly here. 10 years ago or so, since its a lasting design decision from nwn1 and still around.

[Haplose]

ncknck wrote...
A bard has a -12 AB difference compared to a fighter. 

That's a... fascinating observation.

Modifié par Haplose, 26 avril 2012 - 08:50 .

[The Fred]

ncknck wrote...
A bard has a -12 AB difference compared to a fighter. See above.

Not in general, no. All you are saying is that you can build a Bard with less AB than a given Fighter. Well, I can build a Fighter with less AB than many Bards. It's not that challenging to make a character bad. Let's see:

ncknck wrote... 
-5 bab -2 from dualwield -5 from lack of feats

 
Firstly, only a L20 Bard has a -5 BAB. Since we are talking MotB it makes sense to consider that sort of region, and it's fine to compare a L20 Bard with a L20 Fighter. However, when comparing bards with fighters, the difference should more correctly be designated "-5 per 20 levels". Just a pedantic aside, so don't worry about that.

Secondly, why is your Bard dual-wielding? We just went over this. If a Fighter dual-wields, he too suffers a -2.

Thirdly, -5 from lack of feats? OK, since the Fighter's main (only) bonus is extra feats, it would be unfair not to consider them. What feats are you selecting, though? A Bard can take Weapon Focus, so it's only really Greater Weapon Focus (+1) which is restricted to the Fighter. In Epic levels (I thought we were talking about a L20 char?), you do get Epic Weapon Focus, which is another +2, but at the moment we are comparing a Bard with a net AB 6 points lower than the Fighter's, not 12.

Fourthly, you have to factor in Inspire Courage. This is a +4 bonus. Now we have a Bard who is only 2 AB points lower than a Fighter.

The effect of his damage buffs is limited because of that, unless exploited by playing a module which doesnt require having an adequate AB at all. Me, i prefer more crafting, just as exploitable.

ncknck wrote... 

Saying that being barely able to hit the enemy with full AB when fully buffed is balanced also makes little sense. I'm highly in favour of challenging games, but never being able to hit makes for a slow and boring game. Balanced is more about how often you can hit them relative to how often you get hit, etc.

Thats a logical error. Needing a team to beat the game is neither slow or boring. Nor sense breaking. Where is the problem of buffing the fighter and he kills the enemy. Pretty much every game works like this, and i dont see anyone complaining. Melee mages and bards on the other hand... well 

What is a logical error? Needing a team to beat the game is expected in a team game. In a game designed to be played solo, it's absurd. Balance has nothing to do with how often you hit someone, or how many people you have, it has to do with how challenging things are overall.

Modifié par The Fred, 27 avril 2012 - 11:03 .