85 réponses à ce sujet

[Cat Fancy]

Or at least remove experience rewards from them. That’s all I really want. I think not including Skills in Dragon Age II was the right call. They were boring and annoying in Origins; either you could pass a skill check to do something, or you couldn’t and you’d have to backtrack later. If you even had the opportunity to come back.  It’s not like combat, where you might not be optimized, but you can still play. So, why are traps and locks still in these games? They’re annoying for the same reasons. The classes are more distinct now, as well (which I also think is a good thing), so I don’t know why rogues need this extra role. But again, the most irritating thing about traps and locks is the extra experience. I'd prefer it if that didn't exist.  I’ve never really cared about gold by the end of these games, I wouldn't mind missing out on all the vendor trash that finds its way into locked boxes, but getting ability upgrades is primally satisfying. It’s fun to vary my party composition every once in a while, and sometimes I just don’t want to bring along one of the rogue characters. Help a brother out, game designers.

Also, if they come back (you monsters!), make it easier to target traps. I dunno; I have trouble clicking on them sometimes in both games and just decide to bite the bullet and let my least favorite character in the party walk into them. Yes, Wynne/Anders, that was because you are so old/the kind of the person who would have a really annoying tumblr if you were real.

edit: the hell was up with that formatting

Modifié par umwhatyousay, 07 avril 2012 - 06:44 .

[Arthur Cousland]

Yes, make it easier to spot traps at least. Traps were everywhere in DA2, and many times I'd have to put the party on hold, rather than let them rush into combat, because I didn't want them to trigger traps, because the rogues can't spot the traps without standing right on top of them. Because I don't like constantly having to control Varric, or one of the other rogue companions (there were others?), I find it more convenient to play as a rogue Hawke, despite having more fun as a mage.

While I like to pick every lock and disarm every trap, it's mainly for the exp. It would be nice if there was more loot in chests that would actually seem like it was worth locking up, and not just vendor trash.

[Eragondragonrider]

So make it just like ME3 with no mini games but to run around scanning for war assets while avoiding The Chantry, yea that will be so much fun. Please don't get rid of mini games.

[Asch Lavigne]

Mini games are a must have, I so missed them in ME3. But I hate having to carry a rogue around to disarm and open everything. I'm just not a rogue class person.

[Cat Fancy]

Eragondragonrider wrote...

So make it just like ME3 with no mini games but to run around scanning for war assets while avoiding The Chantry, yea that will be so much fun. Please don't get rid of mini games.

Would you really consider these mini-games? I mean traps are a(n annoying) part of combat, but I wouldn't consider them mini-games, and I certainly wouldn't consider locks such. Either you have a rogue enough cunning to deal with them, or you don't. And I would never defend ME3's scanning. I actually wouldn't mind if these were actual mini-games- I never cared about ME2's hacking, but I didn't get bored of it either. As they exist now, though? Pass.

[Zubie]

 Ah yes let's just remove even more stuff instead of improving on it.

[Cat Fancy]

Why do you like unlocking things now? What does this add to the game for you? How would you like to see locks improved? Do you think a lockpicking minigame could be an interesting thing to do over the course of an entire game? Your answer could certainly be yes - I think most systems wear out their welcome over the course of a few dozen hours, but I know not everyone feels the same. I've just never been anything but irritated with locks and traps, and removing them would improve the overall game experience for me.

Modifié par umwhatyousay, 07 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[the_one_54321]

umwhatyousay wrote...
I think not including Skills in Dragon Age II was the right call. They were boring and annoying in Origins

Yeah, well that's just...

Arthur Cousland wrote...
Yes, make it easier to spot traps at least.  Traps were everywhere in DA2, and many times I'd have to put the party on hold, rather than let them rush into combat, because I didn't want them to trigger traps

Ohmygosh you mean you mean you actually had to be cautious, hesitant and thoughtful instead of just charging in head first and smashing everything?! How awful!

Way to feed the stereotype, man.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 07 avril 2012 - 07:06 .

[Cultist]

Sure. Also, remove leveling, remove stats, remove dialogues, remove inventory. Or it'll be sooooo hard to plaaaay.

[PsychoBlonde]

I approve this idea, as there's nothing *entertaining* about the locks and traps as they existed in DA2.

What they could do INSTEAD, which would be FUN, would be to merge locks, traps, and puzzles, kind of like, say, how the old Eye of the Beholder games did it.  There were TONS of traps and weird locks and bizarro lever puzzles in that game that you didn't need a rogue to deal with, you just needed your brains.

I would love that.  I suspect some people would not like this so much--they find puzzles of this nature tedious or just plain baffling.  Heck, I get baffled myself sometimes and wind up having to look up solutions online.

Around the time MotA came out, The Laidlaw mentioned that they want to experiment more with gameplay of this nature, and he said something along the lines of they plan on making it optional stuff you can do instead of stuff you HAVE to do in order to progress.  That'd probably be the way to go.

Just NO MORE TOWERS OF HANOI.  Unless it's done intentionally as a joke.

[Cat Fancy]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ohmygosh you mean you mean you
actually had to be cautious, hesitant and thoughtful instead of just
charging in head first and smashing everything?! How awful!

Way to feed the stereotype, man. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

I can enjoy a hard, tactical battle (although as an unperson I enjoy chargesmashing quite a bit, too), but I never cared for the opening portion of a battle where I tell everybody to stay behind a wall while a rogue disarms traps. And it was occasionally too hard to click on traps in these games. I could detect them but I had to call upon some RL sorcery to have the option of clicking on them.

Cultist wrote...

Sure. Also, remove leveling, remove stats, remove dialogues, remove inventory. Or it'll be sooooo hard to plaaaay.

Do you think locks make the game harder? All they do is frustrate that addict part of my brain that wants another hit of experience, but doesn't feel like hanging with a rogue at the mo.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

The problem lies in how BioWare approaches quest and gameplay design. Essentially, the gameplay is ancillary to the experience and there's a fundamental misunderstanding of how stat systems, character systems and gameplay mechanics contribute to the roleplaying process.

As a result, you get a lot of stuff in there just because it's a common RPG trope - excessive bloat. It's not such a huge problem by itself. But it's inserted with no thought, no real relevance and no substance. It's excessive bloat, but it's also pointless excessive bloat. Origins had a fair amount of excessive bloat, but there was enough enjoyment and relevance of said bloat, that you could say that it added to the experience. Like having a Ranger who focused on survival skills, herbalism, trap making, etc.

Compare this also, to how say, Witcher 2 approaches crafting and traps. It's still "bloat", but there's plenty of thought and substance in those systems, so it's fun and adds immensely to the experience.

The Fedex quests are the biggest example, but other examples include crafting, traps, locks, the item/loot system, etc.

As for solutions, the obvious one would be to expand the "bloat" elements and make them fun, which is what Dragon Age 2 failed to do. Puzzles, multiple solutions to problems, sandbox level type quests, things like that would leave me satisfied. Simply cutting them, without understanding what role they played in allowing players to have fun or RP is what led to the unsatisfactory experience you had in Dragon Age 2.

In regards to EXP, I think cutting all experience from actions and stacking them as quest rewards only, with bonuses for reaching milestones (killing X enemies, sneaking past X enemies, passed X skill checks in dialog, etc) is the way to go.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 07 avril 2012 - 07:49 .

[Chromie]

CrustyBot wrote...
As for solutions, the obvious one would be to expand the "bloat" elements and make them fun, which is what Dragon Age 2 failed to do. Puzzles, multiple solutions to problems, sandbox level type quests, things like that would leave me satisfied.

I do not see Bioware doing that at all. I really like looking for traps or solving puzzles but in DA2 it was, like you said, pointless. There would areas with not a single trap and then I'd get a quest and boom 30 traps.

I love traps. I made a Rogue Archer simply for trapping. It adds a lot to character customization and to the experience imo. Baiting enemies into choke points and just ripping them to shreds is something I missed that wasn't in DA2 and why were they removed in the first place?

umwhatyousay wrote...

Do you think locks make the game harder? All they do is frustrate that addict part of my brain that wants another hit of experience, but doesn't feel like hanging with a rogue at the mo.

Well too bad. Either plan for it or live with your decisions. I'll mention Witcher 2. You'd have mutliple endings to sidequest obviously you'd miss out on experience, loot and coin but you'd have a different experience or see something else. Bioware let's you see everything and unlock everything with out much trouble.

Modifié par Skelter192, 07 avril 2012 - 07:52 .

[G00N3R7883]

Okay not only do I disagree with the OP, I actually would prefer Bioware to go in completely the opposite direction.

I don't think Dragon Age games so far have enough locks and traps. I believe they should have more.

In my opinion, the Rogue class so far is pretty much pointless. Most of the time I don't even have one in my party, or I just focus on levelling up their combat skills (in which case I might as well just have another warrior) ... and I still do just fine. I'm never disadvantaged by not being able to pick locks or disable traps. Only a couple of dungeons even HAVE traps, and whatever ones I set off do so little damage that I can just heal and move on. I always get plenty of nice loot from bosses, so I don't miss whatever is held in locked chests. Locked doors always have a key, usually gained by killing the boss in the same room.

Give us a higher frequency of trap placement. Give us LETHAL traps. Give us doors that HAVE to be lockpicked or else we can't continue. Force me to need a balanced party.

edit: after reading the thread a bit further ... please, no Mass Effect or Skyrim or Bioshock style minigame for lockpicking. Leave that part as it is - a skill check based on lock/trap strenth and the Rogue's skill number.

Modifié par G00N3R7883, 07 avril 2012 - 08:53 .

[Cultist]

umwhatyousay wrote...
Do you think locks make the game harder? All they do is frustrate that addict part of my brain that wants another hit of experience, but doesn't feel like hanging with a rogue at the mo.

Locks make game more interesting. I, for one, for increase in number of locks and traps. And for different options to open\\disarm them. I understand that simplifying and dumbing down the game is appealing to arcade, action and jRPG players, but DA2 proved it that targeting on that audience is a folly.

I see the main thing that should be added is NWN option when your party member with ability to open locks automaticly will go and open it when PC's skill is lacking.

Modifié par Cultist, 07 avril 2012 - 08:57 .

[AkiKishi]

In KOA traps were the only thing that killed my character. If you remove traps you remove a lot of the use of the rogue class over others. Mages are already OP in Dragon Age/2.

[Bebuse]

Perhaps not remove, but I would like to see other ways around them.

Dragon Age 2 in particular did traps badly. They did not make the game any more challenging, they did not stop you from running face first into them because DA2 is not the kind of game to be taken slowly. All they were, were distractions similar to a 'convenient pile of rubble' in the path, which made you sigh and go around them.

I guess what I am trying to get at is I don't like the way these obstacles are so predictable: you bring your rogue, if your cunning is high enough you click a button, if not, not. I would like a Lock Bashing option for warriors and a Lock Melting or similar spell for mages (perhaps with a risk of damaging the goods to incentivise 'picking' them).

Traps are slightly more difficult. Maybe they should be given their own little minigame rather than 'press button on floor'. Maybe they do more than temporary damage: they cave in a particular route, block certain teammates off from the battle, and so on. Mix things up a bit, the old RPG formula is certainly not without room for improvement!

Rogues are useful and powerful on their own merits thanks to some of their great combat improvements in DA2, they do not need to be given 'extra' jobs to ensure people actually use them.

[esper]

Originally traps could injure you in da2. I am still not sure why that was removed since that made the traps pointless after that. I never saw the purpose of traps in da:o either (from neither side) expect those that sounded an alarm for the enemy which warned the enemy that the team were coming.
As for locks, yes that should definitly by a bash lock option for warriors and mages. After da2 the classes a specialized enough combatwise that they don't need to have 1 class that have out of combat uses and two classes which haven't.

[Melca36]

umwhatyousay wrote...

Or at least remove experience rewards from them. That’s all I really want. I think not including Skills in Dragon Age II was the right call. They were boring and annoying in Origins; either you could pass a skill check to do something, or you couldn’t and you’d have to backtrack later. If you even had the opportunity to come back.  It’s not like combat, where you might not be optimized, but you can still play. So, why are traps and locks still in these games? They’re annoying for the same reasons. The classes are more distinct now, as well (which I also think is a good thing), so I don’t know why rogues need this extra role. But again, the most irritating thing about traps and locks is the extra experience. I'd prefer it if that didn't exist.  I’ve never really cared about gold by the end of these games, I wouldn't mind missing out on all the vendor trash that finds its way into locked boxes, but getting ability upgrades is primally satisfying. It’s fun to vary my party composition every once in a while, and sometimes I just don’t want to bring along one of the rogue characters. Help a brother out, game designers.

Also, if they come back (you monsters!), make it easier to target traps. I dunno; I have trouble clicking on them sometimes in both games and just decide to bite the bullet and let my least favorite character in the party walk into them. Yes, Wynne/Anders, that was because you are so old/the kind of the person who would have a really annoying tumblr if you were real.

edit: the hell was up with that formatting

NO!   SOme of us happen to enjoy those aspects of the game and we dont want every aspect of the game handed to us.

[FedericoV]

I think Bioware should stop a bit with their "streamline" design process of late and try to reason more on the role of each feature and its "holistic" relationship with the others in shaping the gaming experience. So, any removal or inclusion should not be done in the name of subjective/faulty concepts like "new" or "old", "evolution" or "stalling".

I don't care a lot about the single features but the overall experience can change a lot if you go too far in a direction... to the point where stat or not, dice rolls or not, the game doesn't feel like an RPG at all.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[Yrkoon]

umwhatyousay wrote...

Or at least remove experience rewards from them. That’s all I really want. I think not including Skills in Dragon Age II was the right call.

Or Not.  Dragon age is supposed to be a fantasy RPG.  And those have traps and character skills.  Don't want them?  Go play a game that isn't a fantasy rpg.

TL;DR:  stop taking sh** away from my rogue!

Bebuse wrote...


Rogues are useful and powerful on their own merits thanks to some of their great combat improvements in DA2, they do not need to be given 'extra' jobs to ensure people actually use them.

LOL  I love this place.


If it wasn't for trap disarming, DA2's rogues wouldn't have even been rogues.  They would have just been circus acrobats with daggers.  Bioware, in their infinite cornercutting zeal, already took stealth away from them.  Yeah, lets do away with those "extra jobs" now too.... like disarming traps, and opening locks.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 07 avril 2012 - 10:18 .

[Wulfram]

Traps in combat can be interesting, they add a bit of complexity to the situation.
Traps out of combat are boring, particularly with refreshing resources.  Either they're instant kills, which sucks or they effectively do nothnig.

Most locks should either be bashable - but this would attract attention - or you should be able to acquire the key.

If the rogue class needs traps and locks to justify it's existance, it's a bad class.

Modifié par Wulfram, 07 avril 2012 - 10:12 .

[Oooh shiny]

OP didn't like Varric?! He was pretty much the only character I really liked, this makes me sad.

Seriously though, if you don't like opening chests don't open them. Skip them, god knows they skipped decent environments. Also given the balance issue of the game on higher difficulties it was really quite foolish not to take a rogue with you.

[FedericoV]

Wulfram wrote...

Traps in combat can be interesting, they add a bit of complexity to the situation.
Traps out of combat are boring, particularly with refreshing resources.  Either they're instant kills, which sucks or they effectively do nothnig.

What about effects that actually fits action gameplay? Like: traps affecting cooldown, regeneration, aggro, items, cross class combos and such for the entire lenght of a certain area? What about a system that doesn't give you the opportunity to metagame and save/reload or that punish you in some way for metagaming?

If the rogue class needs traps and locks to justify it's existance, it's a bad class.

Rogue has allways been an odd class in A-RPG: they just feel like a frail version of the warrior (if not for their aggro/teleport skills in DA2 but that's just artificial). For sure, the right design process is not to create artificial gameplay elements to justify their existence.

They should be included if the overall gameplay request their presence. In DA2 I never felt that I need a Rogue in the classical sense: if there's no exploration element in the gameplay, you do not need a Rogue class (it would work better as a specialization of the warrior class).

Imho, Bioware should understand why Rogue where needed in games like BG or IWD and only then, if they feel confident about that gameplay, add rogue in to the game as a proper class.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 avril 2012 - 11:27 .

[seraphymon]

Oooh shiny wrote...

OP didn't like Varric?! He was pretty much the only character I really liked, this makes me sad.

Seriously though, if you don't like opening chests don't open them. Skip them, god knows they skipped decent environments. Also given the balance issue of the game on higher difficulties it was really quite foolish not to take a rogue with you.

I didnt care for varric either really. I know most do and he is prolly the most liked companion in DA2, but i think i liked  oghren better. And thats saying something cause i didnt really  like him compared to the others in DAO.