85 réponses à ce sujet

[kingtigernz]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

Mini games are a must have, I so missed them in ME3. But I hate having to carry a rogue around to disarm and open everything. I'm just not a rogue class person.

In Origins a rogue archer was devastating with the right buffs.I personally never went into combat without a rogue in my party.

[Mermaid Claire]

Although I can understand the OP's frustration, I always play rogue archer so I am not in favour of taking away one of the things which makes my class special. You could also ask warriors or mages to lose something that makes them different or ask that their skills be given to rogues, but I would not be in favour of that either. I would hate to start losing each class identity.

However, I will admit that I enjoyed Skyrim's skill system very much and in that game you could open locks regardless of your play style as you did not choose a class at the start. If they wanted to open classes for personalised skill sets I may not be against that idea. However, they would need a larger set of skills to choose from like Skyrim has.

Modifié par Mermaid Claire, 07 avril 2012 - 11:58 .

[AkiKishi]

kingtigernz wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

Mini games are a must have, I so missed them in ME3. But I hate having to carry a rogue around to disarm and open everything. I'm just not a rogue class person.

In Origins a rogue archer was devastating with the right buffs.I personally never went into combat without a rogue in my party.

In Origins you could stealth your way around the map and make a plan. Not something you could do in DA2.

[Blastback]

No. nononononononono.

[Mmw04014]

I love traps and I love locks. I admit they were far better used in Origins, mostly because locked items usually had good loot and they were far easier to click on than in DA2.

I definitely don't want minigames though. This is supposed to be a game based on stats so I want a real skill (I don't like that DA2 did away with this to base your ability on a number) that effects whether I open something, not if I can manage to connect two dots in real life.

[syllogi]

Keep lock picking and traps, but allow bashing, with the chance of breaking objects in the chests. Also bring back making and setting traps. Also bring back stealth and pickpocketing, please.

Basically, I would like to see rogues as thieves again, instead of ninjas.

[Giltspur]

I don't mind how lockpicking/traps pretty much force you to take a rogue along because it's always seemed  that every party should have at least one of the 3 archetypes (warrior, rogue, mage) with one slot for whateverness.  

And I like there being traps if it adds something to your decision-making in combat scenarios.  And out-of-combat traps are cool if they add to tension and feeling of exploration.  Though the traps are ideally a puzzle and not a "disarm".  Because that can feel like filler.  I still kind of like the filler because it adds a feeling of having to be one the lookout even if that lookout is Isabela or Varric say "Whooooa there."

It's hard to give further feedback on this issue though because we don't know what Bioware's going to do with elements that have traditionally been restricted to roguery.  For example, I get the feeling there will be no more invisostealth and that stealth will involve, sound, light, shadow and line of sight.  So given that likely change to stealth gameplay, what impact does that have on traps in combat?  I don't know.

[_Arkayne_]

the_one_54321 wrote...

umwhatyousay wrote...
I think not including Skills in Dragon Age II was the right call. They were boring and annoying in Origins

Yeah, well that's just...

Arthur Cousland wrote...
Yes, make it easier to spot traps at least.  Traps were everywhere in DA2, and many times I'd have to put the party on hold, rather than let them rush into combat, because I didn't want them to trigger traps

Ohmygosh you mean you mean you actually had to be cautious, hesitant and thoughtful instead of just charging in head first and smashing everything?! How awful!

Way to feed the stereotype, man.

This.
Why on earth do you want them to remove one of the things that makes a rogue unique, and makes combat tactical?

[Dejajeva]

I don't think they should remove locks or traps. I think they should just have it so anyone with high enough cunning can do it. I should be able to pick a lock myself as a mage if I want to. Many times I start off playing rogue just so I don't have to bother having another companion do it for me. I do wish that if I am going to have to pause to have a rogue companion open a master chest- that there's something more substantial in it besides torn trousers.

[Arthur Cousland]

the_one_54321 wrote...

umwhatyousay wrote...
I think not including Skills in Dragon Age II was the right call. They were boring and annoying in Origins

Yeah, well that's just...

Arthur Cousland wrote...
Yes, make it easier to spot traps at least.  Traps were everywhere in DA2, and many times I'd have to put the party on hold, rather than let them rush into combat, because I didn't want them to trigger traps

Ohmygosh you mean you mean you actually had to be cautious, hesitant and thoughtful instead of just charging in head first and smashing everything?! How awful!

Way to feed the stereotype, man.

I just want better trap detection, similar to what was in Origins.  If I have to stand on top of a trap in order to detect it, at least let stealth be a sustained talent, so I can scout ahead without coming under fire from the opposition.  Scouting for traps was fun and exciting in Origins, and this element was removed in DA2.

It's not so much about having to put the party on hold before I open doors, I just don't want to have to worry that anytime my melee companions charge after a ranged enemy, that they may trigger a trap in the process. 

I'm not suggesting that they remove traps, I just hate feeling that I'm constantly walking over a mine field, and there's no way to know in advance where the mines are.  The traps don't just appear around doors, they are in the middle of rooms and can be hard to notice until combat has already begun.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 07 avril 2012 - 05:43 .

[Cat Fancy]

Let's see if typing parts of this up on a word processor did anything insane to the formatting. I bet it did!

Yrkoon wrote...
Dragon age is supposed to be a fantasy RPG.  And those have traps and character skills.  Don't want them?  Go play a game that isn't a fantasy rpg.

TL;DR:  stop taking sh** away from my rogue!

Most RPGs are unwieldy conglomerations of unrelated systems, some of which I find enjoyable, some of which I don't. I can typically enjoy both the combat and story parts of RPGs, but I've never liked skill systems. Whatever charm they may have in tabletop games doesn't translate to videogames for me.

If it wasn't for trap disarming, DA2's rogues wouldn't have even been rogues.  They would have just been circus acrobats with daggers.  Bioware, in their infinite cornercutting zeal, already took stealth away from them.  Yeah, lets do away with those "extra jobs" now too.... like disarming traps, and opening locks.

Rogues gained a lot in Dragon Age II. And they still have stealth in Dragon Age II. Unless they've talked about removing stealth in the next game, I guess. And like it or not (and I know you don't, which I can imagine is very frustrating), rogues have been associated with fancy dagger nonsense for quite a while. And fantasy RPGs, and their rogues, didn't even exist until, what, some time after segregation ended in the US? That's not that long ago! Archetypes can change. I'm pretty happy that vampire are mostly sexy fascists now as opposed to bloated, walking corpses. That's a tangent. I suspect we won't agree about rogues. That's alright.

Oooh shiny wrote...

OP didn't like Varric?! He was pretty much the only character I really liked, this makes me sad.

Did I say I dislike Varric in the OP? I mean, I do, but it's not that I didn't like any of the rogue characters (Isabela was a favorite). I just didn't always feel like bringing one along with me.

_Arkayne_ wrote...

Why on earth do you want them to remove one of the things that makes a rogue unique, and makes combat tactical?

Something being unique doesn't necessarily mean it's valuable. All three classes in Dragon Age II have well-defined combat roles. Why do rogues need a random, basically pointless non-combat role? It may be a bad idea to engage in combat with only a single class, but you can still do it. You can't do a thing about locked chests without rogues, though. I don't think locks were ever interesting in these games, and I wouldn't miss them. More power to you if you enjoy setting up traps, though. I never had any interest in doing so, so the only thing traps did in Origins was waste my time at the start of, or before, battle while I had the rogue(s) disarm them. I would be satisfied if the experience gain for disarming them was removed.

Dejajeva wrote...

I don't think they should remove locks
or traps. I think they should just have it so anyone with high enough
cunning can do it. I should be able to pick a lock myself as a mage if I
want to. Many times I start off playing rogue just so I don't have to
bother having another companion do it for me. I do wish that if I am
going to have to pause to have a rogue companion open a master chest-
that there's something more substantial in it besides torn
trousers.

Again, as a terrible person, I hope the game designers don't bring skills back. And I don't think they will. But if they did, I'd prefer them to work like they did in KoA, where any class could have access to any of the skills. (I think? I haven't played that game in a while and my memory is poor)

[The Confidence-Man]

Go play an action game, sounds like RPGs aren't for you.

[the_one_54321]

FedericoV wrote...
What about effects that actually fits action gameplay?

How about leaving action gameplay to the action games? Hmmm? Would that be such a terrible thing? 

[Blastback]

syllogi wrote...

Keep lock picking and traps, but allow bashing, with the chance of breaking objects in the chests. Also bring back making and setting traps. Also bring back stealth and pickpocketing, please.

Basically, I would like to see rogues as thieves again, instead of ninjas.

Seconded.

[Melca36]

Again, as a terrible person, I hope the game designers don't bring skills back. And I don't think they will. But if they did, I'd prefer them to work like they did in KoA, where any class could have access to any of the skills. (I think? I haven't played that game in a while and my memory is poor)

maybe you should play something else.

[FedericoV]

the_one_54321 wrote...

FedericoV wrote...
What about effects that actually fits action gameplay?

How about leaving action gameplay to the action games? Hmmm? Would that be such a terrible thing? 

It would be a wonderfull thing. But unfortunately it ain't going to happen.

Btw, I don't understand why you use that kind of tone. I'm sorry if you are angry because of Bioware's late design direction but it ain't my fault. Was it for me DA would have been a graphical upgrade of BG.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 avril 2012 - 06:47 .

[llandwynwyn]

They should remove everything. Make a game like 'The Graveyard', you know? You walk around then die. Perfect.

[LegendaryBlade]

Yes, because DA2 wasn't already casual baby easy enough.

I'd rather they not strip out more RPG elements, traps and locks should remain as they are. Players who take the time to put points in to trap or lockpicking skills should be rightfully rewarded with new paths, or better loot. Like any good RPG system.

[Realmzmaster]

Blastback wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Keep lock picking and traps, but allow bashing, with the chance of breaking objects in the chests. Also bring back making and setting traps. Also bring back stealth and pickpocketing, please.

Basically, I would like to see rogues as thieves again, instead of ninjas.

Seconded.

Are you saying that ninjas do not do what rogues do? Last time I look ninjas were considered masters of unorthodox warfare which included assassination, sabotage, espionage, infiltration and when necessary open combat.
Espionage would include the picking of locks and pockets to gather information. They were masters of concelment (hiding in shadows). In fact ninjas are the original stealth soldiers. The ninja's task on the battlefield was to cause confusion among the enemy. Ninjas had to learn scouting and surivival techniques. Ninjas were skilled in posions and explosives. They had to learn trap disarming since those were used as countermeasures againt them. They had to learn maritial arts which included weapons training. They were also masters of disguise and had to have some training in common activites. Some even had medical training so they could pose as doctors.
So why the knock on ninjas?

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 07 avril 2012 - 07:13 .

[Realmzmaster]

The traps in DAO and DA2 are mostly pointless. There is no real consequence. You cannot die in either game. There are no lethal traps, because there is no death. A character steps on a trap and gets injured. You give them a health potion and/or injury kit and they are as good as new. Also after the first playthrough you know the location of most of the traps. Now if the location was randomly generated that would be different.
Not just any class should be allowed to pick locks just because you have high cunning unless you have trained in the art of lockpicking. That is like saying I should be able to wield a shield as well as a S & S warrior because I have high strength.

Bashing chests I have no problem with as long as there is a chance that the items in the chest can be destroyed like in NWN. For example if you know a crystalline statue is contained in a lock chest then you need a rogue to open it. If the chest is bashed the chance of destroying the item should be high.
Stealth as implemented in both DAO and DA2 is comical. MoTA is at least an attempt in the right direction.

[Pasquale1234]

Wulfram wrote...

Traps in combat can be interesting, they add a bit of complexity to the situation.
Traps out of combat are boring, particularly with refreshing resources.  Either they're instant kills, which sucks or they effectively do nothnig.

Most locks should either be bashable - but this would attract attention - or you should be able to acquire the key.

If the rogue class needs traps and locks to justify it's existance, it's a bad class.

Seems like acquiring the key typically involves killing whoever has it.

I think it would be great fun if there was another way to acquire a key - like, for example have a character with a high persuasion skill talk them into giving it up, making some sort of deal for it, maybe even having a blood mage mind-control the key holder.  Or having a rogue with non-combat stealth plus stealing skills swipe it.

There are a lot of other things that could be done with rogue skills if only they were implemented.

[finalcabbage]

I say keep the traps so that my cool as hell rogue can still be backflipin all over the place. Nothin more awesome than almost getting cut to ribbons with saw blades only to tumble away like a boss.

Modifié par finalcabbage, 07 avril 2012 - 07:48 .

[syllogi]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Blastback wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Keep lock picking and traps, but allow bashing, with the chance of breaking objects in the chests. Also bring back making and setting traps. Also bring back stealth and pickpocketing, please.

Basically, I would like to see rogues as thieves again, instead of ninjas.

Seconded.

Are you saying that ninjas do not do what rogues do? Last time I look ninjas were considered masters of unorthodox warfare which included assassination, sabotage, espionage, infiltration and when necessary open combat.
Espionage would include the picking of locks and pockets to gather information. They were masters of concelment (hiding in shadows). In fact ninjas are the original stealth soldiers. The ninja's task on the battlefield was to cause confusion among the enemy. Ninjas had to learn scouting and surivival techniques. Ninjas were skilled in posions and explosives. They had to learn trap disarming since those were used as countermeasures againt them. They had to learn maritial arts which included weapons training. They were also masters of disguise and had to have some training in common activites. Some even had medical training so they could pose as doctors.
So why the knock on ninjas?

How many games or tv shows portray ninjas doing "thief" things, other than being stealthy, nowadays?  I have nothing against the idea of ninjas, especially how you describe them, but look at how stealth was implemented in DA2 for example...it was just another flashy trick used during combat, there was no strategy or forethough involved in using it.  Just another button to push.  Look at kids shows, video games, and comics that have ninjas...do they spend a lot of time showing the ninjas scouting, using traps and bombs, or sneaking around?  There might be a few cases, I suspect mainly in non-western sources, but what we see here when it comes to ninjas makes me think of how rogues were implemented in DA2.

[esper]

syllogi wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Blastback wrote...

syllogi wrote...

Keep lock picking and traps, but allow bashing, with the chance of breaking objects in the chests. Also bring back making and setting traps. Also bring back stealth and pickpocketing, please.

Basically, I would like to see rogues as thieves again, instead of ninjas.

Seconded.

Are you saying that ninjas do not do what rogues do? Last time I look ninjas were considered masters of unorthodox warfare which included assassination, sabotage, espionage, infiltration and when necessary open combat.
Espionage would include the picking of locks and pockets to gather information. They were masters of concelment (hiding in shadows). In fact ninjas are the original stealth soldiers. The ninja's task on the battlefield was to cause confusion among the enemy. Ninjas had to learn scouting and surivival techniques. Ninjas were skilled in posions and explosives. They had to learn trap disarming since those were used as countermeasures againt them. They had to learn maritial arts which included weapons training. They were also masters of disguise and had to have some training in common activites. Some even had medical training so they could pose as doctors.
So why the knock on ninjas?

How many games or tv shows portray ninjas doing "thief" things, other than being stealthy, nowadays?  I have nothing against the idea of ninjas, especially how you describe them, but look at how stealth was implemented in DA2 for example...it was just another flashy trick used during combat, there was no strategy or forethough involved in using it.  Just another button to push.  Look at kids shows, video games, and comics that have ninjas...do they spend a lot of time showing the ninjas scouting, using traps and bombs, or sneaking around?  There might be a few cases, I suspect mainly in non-western sources, but what we see here when it comes to ninjas makes me think of how rogues were implemented in DA2.

Actually that was what steath was in da:o too. Why stealth is a combat ability in both games, I will never understand.