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Bioware should eliminate locks and traps from future Dragon Age games

Débuté par Cat Fancy , avril 07 2012 01:41

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85 réponses à ce sujet

#51
syllogi
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 08:22

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esper wrote...

Actually that was what steath was in da:o too. Why stealth is a combat ability in both games, I will never understand.


Agreed, but at least in DA:O, I could use stealth in conjunction with survival to put my character into position for combat, while in DA2, it might as well be called "Flashy Rogue Move Number 23."

MotA's stealth minigame was fun, but I would want rogue specific stealth in all areas, with no silly "guards forget you exist if you mess up and you go back to start" mechanic.  It wasn't the worst thing ever, but it wasn't very realistic.

#52
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 08:23

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I wish DA2 rogues were ninjas. They need 1-handed swords, throwing weapons and more graceful attack animations before it'll feel anything like that, for starters.

I'd greatly like to see the Ranger specialization return, with one branch devoted to an animal companion with a couple upgrades, and another branch devoted to a couple different types of "trap talents" akin to the "flask talents" like Miasmic Flask.

Crafting skills needs to return, including crafting traps. DA2 crafting system is fine, just rename the "ordering tables" to "crafting tables" and re-designate the "ordering cost" as the "material gathering cost" and implement skill requirements, and it would feel like the player has a more character customization options even if the result is functionally identical. Preferably, traps would be worth crafting and using too, unlike DAO's IMO. Other skills could include Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate (dominant tone would still exist, but the player would control whether the character is successful at being diplomatic or intimidating), Survival, Lore (bring on unidentified magical items). class-specific skills could include, for rogues, non-combat Stealth (check based on skill, stats, shade, distraction, like MotA) and Disable Device. For mages, Use Magic Device (create a new class of items, wands, like bombs but reusable and with magical effects, for mages to use) and Coercion (special dialog skill, a la blood magic mind control). For warriors, Combat Training and Tactics. Seems to make sense for them to get passive combat buff skills, since combat is really their only 'niche'. The amount of tactics slots available would have nothing to do with that tactics skill, though.

So basically I disagree with everything the OP said.

Modifié par Filament, 07 avril 2012 - 08:25 .

#53
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Posté 07 avril 2012 - 08:36

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Filament wrote...

I wish DA2 rogues were ninjas. They need 1-handed swords, throwing weapons and more graceful attack animations before it'll feel anything like that, for starters.


Oh, hell yes.

I'd greatly like to see the Ranger specialization return, with one branch devoted to an animal companion with a couple upgrades, and another branch devoted to a couple different types of "trap talents" akin to the "flask talents" like Miasmic Flask.


I would love to see this! I would also like some kind of tracking skill for Rangers or a detect enemies type thing. In other words they need to not just bring the Ranger specialization back but improve it and make it worth playing.

Crafting skills needs to return, including crafting traps. DA2 crafting system is fine, just rename the "ordering tables" to "crafting tables" and re-designate the "ordering cost" as the "material gathering cost" and implement skill requirements, and it would feel like the player has a more character customization options even if the result is functionally identical. Preferably, traps would be worth crafting and using too, unlike DAO's IMO. Other skills could include Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate (dominant tone would still exist, but the player would control whether the character is successful at being diplomatic or intimidating), Survival, Lore (bring on unidentified magical items). class-specific skills could include, for rogues, non-combat Stealth (check based on skill, stats, shade, distraction, like MotA) and Disable Device. For mages, Use Magic Device (create a new class of items, wands, like bombs but reusable and with magical effects, for mages to use) and Coercion (special dialog skill, a la blood magic mind control). For warriors, Combat Training and Tactics. Seems to make sense for them to get passive combat buff skills, since combat is really their only 'niche'. The amount of tactics slots available would have nothing to do with that tactics skill, though.


 I would also love to see crafting armor introduced to the DA games, and to actually have what you craft be of better quality than what you can purchase from various vendors.

So basically I disagree with everything the OP said.


I do too. Getting rid of traps and locks is not something Bioware should do, but they do need to improve whatever they did in DA2 regarding traps. I preferred the traps in Origins... I will never understand why they felt they needed to change it.

Modifié par PurebredCorn, 07 avril 2012 - 08:51 .

#54
Yrkoon
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 09:50

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umwhatyousay wrote...

Rogues gained a lot in Dragon Age II.

Indeed.    Such as the ability to jump 20 feet into the air in any direction.   And the ability to do lolawesome front and backflips.  Oh and we can't forget the ability to toss a hand grenade into the air then do a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick at it to send it flying towards opponents.  <gag>

Yeah, that's not "rogue".    And those aren't Rogue skills.   that's Bioware's Misguided attempt to attract a NON-RPG fan to their game.





And they still have stealth in Dragon Age II.

BullSh**.  They gave us the ability to "disappear" for 5 seconds as a result of some random forgettable combat talent.  That's not Stealth.  Stealth is the ability to operate unseen.  As in, being able to quietly and invisibly scout ahead, and walk amongst enemies without them detecting you.  We did NOT get that in DA2 and its omission managed to  suck all the fun out of playing a Rogue.

But back on topic.  NO, they should NOT remove Lockpicking or Trap disarming.      They should do the  opposite.  They should make traps deadlier, harder to detect, and harder to disarm.  Traps should be more frequent and far more significant in all aspects of gameplay, whether it be via puzzles, or via combat, or even  to guard treasure.

So there.  Again, don't like it?  That's fine.  There are shooters and sports games you might want to play instead.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 07 avril 2012 - 09:56 .

#55
kingtigernz
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 09:54

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They changed the trap making aspect because it was "Innovation".

Modifié par kingtigernz, 07 avril 2012 - 09:54 .

#56
Adanu
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 10:04

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ROgues are incredible at quite a few things in DA2, in fact after their overhaul they became my favorite class to play.

Remove locks and traps, and rogues have plenty of combat utility. As it is, traps should serve a purpose situationally and not just be thrown all around. Locks.... locks were just stupid.

#57
Guest_Puddi III_*
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 10:12

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Yrkoon wrote...

BullSh**.  They gave us the ability to "disappear" for 5 seconds as a result of some random forgettable combat talent.  That's not Stealth.

lol. It's not Stealth, even though it's blatantly called "Stealth" and has the same tactical (if not strategic) function as Stealth in Origins did. Oooookay. :whistle:

#58
Yrkoon
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 10:17

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umwhatyousay wrote...

Why do you like unlocking things now? What does this add to the game for you?

It Adds.... wait for it.... believablity to my game.   People lock  up their  valuable possessions  so that they don't get taken from them.    

I don't know about you, but for me, an RPG that dispenses with ALL believability eventually manages to kill my immersion.  If I can just open every door and every chest without having to contend with it being locked, then... you know, that's not very fun or believable.  That's boring.  Might as well just say at home base  and have all loot delivered to me instead.  No need to expend more effort than necessary, right?


Filament wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

BullSh**. They gave us the ability to "disappear" for 5 seconds as a result of some random forgettable combat talent. That's not Stealth.

lol. It's not Stealth, even though it's blatantly called "Stealth" and has the same tactical (if not strategic) function as Stealth in Origins did. Oooookay. Image IPB

It's not.  a 10 second invisibility spell isn't "stealth", no matter what pretend name Bioware gives it.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 07 avril 2012 - 10:30 .

#59
upsettingshorts
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 10:21

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Yrkoon wrote...

So there.  Again, don't like it?  That's fine.  There are shooters and sports games you might want to play instead.


Shooters have traps, they're called proximity mines.

Sports games have traps, what they're called depends on the sport.

*drives off in the Pedantmobile*

#60
NedPepper
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 10:55

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Nah. Locks and traps being removed would be...weird. It's part of the reason why you BUILD a party. You need different followers for different things. I liked having Zevran or Lelinana, or Varric chime in and say, "Hey I got that for you." Or "Watch your step."

I don't want to see that go away. I'd like to see more of it.

#61
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Posté 07 avril 2012 - 11:03

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I don't think the rewards need to be removed from lockpicking and traps anymore than they need to be removed from combat. Personally, I wouldn't mind a system where there are no EXP rewards for grinding enemies or unlocking everything.

I agree with Filament, in that I'd love all classes to have broader utility, like in games from before DAO, such as NWN. Maybe the rogue can pick locks, but a warrior can maybe break down the door. Multiple solutions to problems for different kinds of parties, some of which do or don't involve combat. Some examples of games most might be familliar with that had skill systems and non-combat progression I like are: Fallout, Neverwinter Nights, and KOTOR. In KOTOR, even though the utility droid sucked in combat, he felt like a worthy slot in the party because of his skills, whereas in DAO, rogues just felt like lockpick b*tches. I'd love to see traps and bombs as useful as demolitions were in KOTOR2.

Modifié par Rojahar, 07 avril 2012 - 11:04 .

#62
Dragoonlordz
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 11:03

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I want more features relating to mini games and out of combat skills/abilities.

If I recall one of the major topics of discussion from people was they said they wanted out of combat skills more widely implemented after DA2 was released. Cloaking and pick pocketing, locks and traps (done better than shown in DA2). But the general consensus was people liked the idea behind more such features not removal. I personally would also like the return of crafting by the player not what we got in DA2 with regard to just finding a resource and someone else making it. These sorts of things are part in parcel of the role playing experience for me and I would like both to be more present and improved upon.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 07 avril 2012 - 11:17 .

#63
Kanon777
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 11:11

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Eragondragonrider wrote...

So make it just like ME3 with no mini games but to run around scanning for war assets while avoiding The Chantry, yea that will be so much fun. Please don't get rid of mini games.


xD

I dont think we need more minigames, what i think we need is more dept (on rpg mechanics AND storyline). They need to make a DAO2 and not DA3

Modifié par tobito113, 07 avril 2012 - 11:13 .

#64
Realmzmaster
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 11:36

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syllogi wrote...

esper wrote...

Actually that was what steath was in da:o too. Why stealth is a combat ability in both games, I will never understand.


Agreed, but at least in DA:O, I could use stealth in conjunction with survival to put my character into position for combat, while in DA2, it might as well be called "Flashy Rogue Move Number 23."

MotA's stealth minigame was fun, but I would want rogue specific stealth in all areas, with no silly "guards forget you exist if you mess up and you go back to start" mechanic.  It wasn't the worst thing ever, but it wasn't very realistic.


Mike Lailaw stated that the stealth mechanism in MoTA was an experiment and asked gamers to comment on it. The guards for get if you mess up restart was just a way for gamers to try out the mechanism without having to fight the guards. The other option was to fight your way through the guards. Both options were available you simply pick which one you used when Tallis ask how you wanted to get to the vault. 

#65
Realmzmaster
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 11:39

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Dragoonlordz wrote...

I want more features relating to mini games and out of combat skills/abilities.

If I recall one of the major topics of discussion from people was they said they wanted out of combat skills more widely implemented after DA2 was released. Cloaking and pick pocketing, locks and traps (done better than shown in DA2). But the general consensus was people liked the idea behind more such features not removal. I personally would also like the return of crafting by the player not what we got in DA2 with regard to just finding a resource and someone else making it. These sorts of things are part in parcel of the role playing experience for me and I would like both to be more present and improved upon.


I like crafting but not the way rune crafting it was implemented in Awakening. If that is the case I would rather stick with the method used in DA2.

#66
K_Tabris
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 11:42

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Uh, you can press the tab button on the PC, or one of the triggers on the xbox controller, and it will highlight traps.

#67
Realmzmaster
Posté 07 avril 2012 - 11:57

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syllogi wrote...


How many games or tv shows portray ninjas doing "thief" things, other than being stealthy, nowadays?  I have nothing against the idea of ninjas, especially how you describe them, but look at how stealth was implemented in DA2 for example...it was just another flashy trick used during combat, there was no strategy or forethough involved in using it.  Just another button to push.  Look at kids shows, video games, and comics that have ninjas...do they spend a lot of time showing the ninjas scouting, using traps and bombs, or sneaking around?  There might be a few cases, I suspect mainly in non-western sources, but what we see here when it comes to ninjas makes me think of how rogues were implemented in DA2.


The movie the Last Samurai, the mini-series Shogun depict ninjas realistically. The graphic novels Lone Wolf and Cub, Samurai Executioner and Path of the Assassin all depict ninjas as history represents.  Even the 3 Ninjas for all it comedy and silliness, if you watch Grandpa he actually plays the ninja correctly to the point of using smoke bombs to mask his movements and uses weapons that a ninja would use.

#68
Amycus89
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 12:21

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I completely disagree with the OP. We just need MORE out-of-combat skills. Bring them back just like in DA:O, but replace the "4-step" unlocking system to simple numbers you need to increase, never knowing when you might come across a situation that requires a higher skill of something than you have.

The persuasion system for example was pretty boring in DA:O compared to older Bioware games, because after your character had a level-4 persuasion you always knew that you could clear all possible persuasion options.

#69
wowpwnslol
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 01:10

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Traps are pretty useless in DA series as it is. Make them be able to one shot your character and you'll have a meaningful reason to have a rogue in your party.

#70
Xerxes52
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 01:33

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The only things I would agree with would be making the trap detection radius much larger (and also they should be visible in-game, rather than the "red light of danger" in DA2), and remove the exp gain from traps, locks, etc.

#71
DiegoRaphael
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 05:36

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Posted on the wrong place, sry...

Modifié par DiegoRaphael, 08 avril 2012 - 05:38 .

#72
Arthur Cousland
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 06:31

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I'd like to see traps that aren't mostly landmines.

Skyrim has traps that will swing down from the ceiling, gates lined with spikes that will swing in your direction, and others that truly look like they hurt, if not kill you in one hit. If Bioware wants to look at Skyrim for inspiration, look at what they do with traps, though let the player be able to disarm them.

At least bring back tripwires and similar traps from Origins, and let the player see them from a distance.

I wouldn't mind if xp was removed from disarming traps, as that is mostly the only reason that I care to disarm them in the first place.  If traps didn't give xp, then I wouldn't worry so much about triggering them, as they don't do significant damage.  Perhaps, in addition to traps being easier to spot, and from further away, traps should be more deadly and be more than a source of xp.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 09 avril 2012 - 04:58 .

#73
Cultist
Posté 08 avril 2012 - 07:00

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the problem with traps is that in DA2 all enemies paradropped from heavens. One several of them actually were on the map and THEN turned hostile. So, traps were useless.
The Witcher 2 got better use of traps as they had decent area of activation that eleminated main flaw - when enemy just moved 1 cm near trap and never activated it. Second - traps there were DAMAGING. They could freezee an opponent so you can smash him to pieces, etc.
As DA3 will be almost like DA2, traps will be useless as well, should bioWare decide to bring them back. What is the difference if one or two expendable enemies from another clone wave will die?

Modifié par Cultist, 08 avril 2012 - 07:02 .

#74
Gotholhorakh
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 10:44

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umwhatyousay wrote...
Bioware should eliminate locks and traps from future Dragon Age games 
Or at least remove experience rewards from them. 


IMO locks, traps and XP rewards should be removed from Dragon Age in the same patch that removes Dragons, characters, stories, magic, combat and graphics.

Either then, or not at all.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 avril 2012 - 10:45 .

#75
RazorrX
Posté 09 avril 2012 - 04:50

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Actually, I wish they would include a better skill system so that any character could learn to disable traps or pick locks. This would go a long way to not require class X to maximize your xp. Why could a mage not have a cantrip that does it? or why would a warrior not learn them as they can be useful skills? At least allow for bashing/breaking doors in or something.
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