182 réponses à ce sujet

[Vox Draco]

TheCinC wrote...

I think it is still a change in the ending, which Bioware has said they won't do. It still leaves in the awful RGB endings which, no matter how you explain or expand them, just make no sense. Adding more colors or cutscenes or dialogue won't work.

Ahem, I think Bioware needs to finally accept that...it doesn't matter if you call it "adding clarification" or "closure", it is still a change of their beloved artistic vision that was shipped on release date...after all, they were proud and content with it back then, weren't they? Hm? Bioware?

If everything would be okay with the ending from an artistic point of view, there would be no need for a EC at all, if you remember Biowares first statements about artistic integrity and stuff...But the defending of the Ednings was always very...vague...and not with much fervor or pride

So...right after EC-Announcement the "we won't change the ending due to artistic integritiy"-argument has lost its weight anyway, and from my point of view they are free to do everything that's necessary to make their product/art better. And maybe, maybe, we'll see something that makes more sense and redeems Shepard as the cahracter we love in the EC...I truly hope so

[daecath]

"Stare at Catalyst until the crazy stops."

This made me LOL so hard!

Honestly, I could live with this. Even synthesis. I do see a couple tweaks though. I like what you did with the order of synthetics vs. the chaos of organics. They need to reword the catalyst's phrasing to something like that. It can't be "the created will always turn on their creators". And they need to include the other conflicts - krogan vs. turians, etc. - as examples of the chaos of organics. THAT I can buy, I can see that the solution is not about synthetics vs. organics, but of chaos vs. order.

And synthesis is much better done here, but still isn't very clear. I'll have to reread it. The one thing that always bothered me about synthesis is that it, more than any other element of the ending, is true space magic. How does an energy wave generate complex circuitry and organic tissue? I think that, as a more metaphysical synthesis, rather than a true physical transformation, it works much better. Perhaps it is similar to the Asari capability. Imagine if everyone had the ability to understand everyone else. The Synthesis wave could be a momentary joining of everyone in the galaxy similar to that.

I must congratulate you, you've done what I didn't think was possible. You've created an ending that is both functional, keeps with the theme of the rest of the game (with minor alterations), and doesn't change their artistic vision too much. It still requires some changes to the endings, but those changes are hopefully minimal enough that they would be acceptable to BioWare.

My ideal is still something completely different, but since that's not likely to happen, something like this would work.

But they have to keep that line above in.

[Fapmaster5000]

daecath wrote...

"Stare at Catalyst until the crazy stops."

This made me LOL so hard!

Honestly, I could live with this. Even synthesis. I do see a couple tweaks though. I like what you did with the order of synthetics vs. the chaos of organics. They need to reword the catalyst's phrasing to something like that. It can't be "the created will always turn on their creators". And they need to include the other conflicts - krogan vs. turians, etc. - as examples of the chaos of organics. THAT I can buy, I can see that the solution is not about synthetics vs. organics, but of chaos vs. order.

And synthesis is much better done here, but still isn't very clear. I'll have to reread it. The one thing that always bothered me about synthesis is that it, more than any other element of the ending, is true space magic. How does an energy wave generate complex circuitry and organic tissue? I think that, as a more metaphysical synthesis, rather than a true physical transformation, it works much better. Perhaps it is similar to the Asari capability. Imagine if everyone had the ability to understand everyone else. The Synthesis wave could be a momentary joining of everyone in the galaxy similar to that.

I must congratulate you, you've done what I didn't think was possible. You've created an ending that is both functional, keeps with the theme of the rest of the game (with minor alterations), and doesn't change their artistic vision too much. It still requires some changes to the endings, but those changes are hopefully minimal enough that they would be acceptable to BioWare.

My ideal is still something completely different, but since that's not likely to happen, something like this would work.

But they have to keep that line above in.

Glad you liked it!

I slid a few of those little gems into the expirement, because, well, why not.  

As for Synthesis and the technobabble:  I tried to write it in such a way that it could be seen two very different ways:

1.  It is actually creating a pocket universe with new physical constants, and the Catalyst is controlling those constants as it creates the new world, saving the galaxy by rebirthing it, essentially.

-or-

2.  Synthesis does nothing, and saves the galaxy by rebirthing it.

Number two is actually my intent.  Synthesis is nothing more (or less) than the result of Shepard's actions being reflected on the Catalyst and changing it's opinion.  It cannot escape it's own programming, "The solution must be applied", so it creates a literal piece of technobabble to rewrite itself into an escape clause, using Shepard's experiences and worldviews to create a new framework for its logic.  WIth this new, revised ethical code (including the concept of "strength through diversity", "hope", and "overcoming the impossible", the Catalyst is able to reprogram the Reapers to back the heck off / go away.  The "synthesis" is the paradigm shift of a galaxy united to fight the Reapers, then left alive to grow together.  It is likely to blur between organic and Synthetic not because "poof", but because it will choose, over time, to blend (like the geth/Quarian resolution of geth in suits).  The galaxy is free of the idealogical trap of the Catalyst's logic, the threat of the Reapers, and their own narrow worldview.  

Sunshine and rainbows, by way of a slightly-anal/kinda-crazy god-AI trying to escape a programming flaw, and Shepard being willing to go the final distance to free even the Reapers and their master from a cycle that serves no purpose, and degrades every being inside it.

-Just my ideas.

[Peranor]

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

Wolven_Soul wrote...

I'm sorry, but any ending involving the star child still sucks.

Well, I can't stand him, either, but he's part of the ending.  So, how can he still suck, be part of the ending, and not make the ending suck?  By being able to call him out on sucking, in character. 

Good point. I'd rather have him removed from the game completely. But what you said would at least make it suck a little less.
Too bad BioWare never will let us do that.

[Fapmaster5000]

anorling wrote...

Good point. I'd rather have him removed from the game completely. But what you said would at least make it suck a little less.
Too bad BioWare never will let us do that.

The biggest flaw I found with him was actually one of the primary flaws in the ending, imho: he wasn't a character.  No, the Catalyst was just a box that dispensed endings.  He had some implied opinions, but that was really more the fanbase interpretting than actually said.  The Catalyst, in game, didn't seem to really give a crap, and that was the worst of all.

If the final choices had been presented by a known character, the sting would have been lessened, it would have felt like acceptance, rebellion, victory, or defeat.  Instead, the ending felt like the game had printed out a ticket that read, "Now that you have accepted that Organics and Synthetics cannot coexist, how would you like to screw the galax?  Red, blue, or green?"

So, one of the first changes I made, was to make the Catalyst a character, not a plot devise.  If he/it had opinions, beliefs, and desires, then Shepard could cooperate, defy, or at least question.  If the Catalst wanted something, then Shepard could stand with or against it, and a real catharsis could be possible. 

[daecath]

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

daecath wrote...

"Stare at Catalyst until the crazy stops."

This made me LOL so hard!

Honestly, I could live with this. Even synthesis. I do see a couple tweaks though. I like what you did with the order of synthetics vs. the chaos of organics. They need to reword the catalyst's phrasing to something like that. It can't be "the created will always turn on their creators". And they need to include the other conflicts - krogan vs. turians, etc. - as examples of the chaos of organics. THAT I can buy, I can see that the solution is not about synthetics vs. organics, but of chaos vs. order.

And synthesis is much better done here, but still isn't very clear. I'll have to reread it. The one thing that always bothered me about synthesis is that it, more than any other element of the ending, is true space magic. How does an energy wave generate complex circuitry and organic tissue? I think that, as a more metaphysical synthesis, rather than a true physical transformation, it works much better. Perhaps it is similar to the Asari capability. Imagine if everyone had the ability to understand everyone else. The Synthesis wave could be a momentary joining of everyone in the galaxy similar to that.

I must congratulate you, you've done what I didn't think was possible. You've created an ending that is both functional, keeps with the theme of the rest of the game (with minor alterations), and doesn't change their artistic vision too much. It still requires some changes to the endings, but those changes are hopefully minimal enough that they would be acceptable to BioWare.

My ideal is still something completely different, but since that's not likely to happen, something like this would work.

But they have to keep that line above in.

Glad you liked it!

I slid a few of those little gems into the expirement, because, well, why not.  

As for Synthesis and the technobabble:  I tried to write it in such a way that it could be seen two very different ways:

1.  It is actually creating a pocket universe with new physical constants, and the Catalyst is controlling those constants as it creates the new world, saving the galaxy by rebirthing it, essentially.

-or-

2.  Synthesis does nothing, and saves the galaxy by rebirthing it.

Number two is actually my intent.  Synthesis is nothing more (or less) than the result of Shepard's actions being reflected on the Catalyst and changing it's opinion.  It cannot escape it's own programming, "The solution must be applied", so it creates a literal piece of technobabble to rewrite itself into an escape clause, using Shepard's experiences and worldviews to create a new framework for its logic.  WIth this new, revised ethical code (including the concept of "strength through diversity", "hope", and "overcoming the impossible", the Catalyst is able to reprogram the Reapers to back the heck off / go away.  The "synthesis" is the paradigm shift of a galaxy united to fight the Reapers, then left alive to grow together.  It is likely to blur between organic and Synthetic not because "poof", but because it will choose, over time, to blend (like the geth/Quarian resolution of geth in suits).  The galaxy is free of the idealogical trap of the Catalyst's logic, the threat of the Reapers, and their own narrow worldview.  

Sunshine and rainbows, by way of a slightly-anal/kinda-crazy god-AI trying to escape a programming flaw, and Shepard being willing to go the final distance to free even the Reapers and their master from a cycle that serves no purpose, and degrades every being inside it.

-Just my ideas.

Option 1 is a little too space-magic for my tastes. The whole reason why I hate the current synthesis option is because it is so space-magic. There's no technology shown that could be extrapolated to make sense of it. The same for the idea of a pocket universe.

I like the idea of synthesis being a change in the catalyst itself, but that gets a little too close to control. It could still work, as a fusion between Shepard and catalyst, but if the goal of synthesis is to create a lasting solution, then it should be something with an effect on the galaxy as a whole. Otherwise, what is the big green explosion for? 
 
That was another of my problems with the current ending. Giving everyone shiney green eyes and circuit boards doesn't solve the problem. There will always be those who will see differences and find a reason to hate because of them. Nothing about glowing eyes will change that. For synthesis to really be effective, you would have to create a synthesis in mind, giving people the ability to see others with empathy. That's probably one reason why the asari aren't shown as being in conflict with anyone. They have the ability to perform synthesis on an individual scale, so they would have a unique perspective.

[daecath]

Fapmaster5000 wrote...

anorling wrote...

Good point. I'd rather have him removed from the game completely. But what you said would at least make it suck a little less.
Too bad BioWare never will let us do that.

The biggest flaw I found with him was actually one of the primary flaws in the ending, imho: he wasn't a character.  No, the Catalyst was just a box that dispensed endings.  He had some implied opinions, but that was really more the fanbase interpretting than actually said.  The Catalyst, in game, didn't seem to really give a crap, and that was the worst of all.

If the final choices had been presented by a known character, the sting would have been lessened, it would have felt like acceptance, rebellion, victory, or defeat.  Instead, the ending felt like the game had printed out a ticket that read, "Now that you have accepted that Organics and Synthetics cannot coexist, how would you like to screw the galax?  Red, blue, or green?"

So, one of the first changes I made, was to make the Catalyst a character, not a plot devise.  If he/it had opinions, beliefs, and desires, then Shepard could cooperate, defy, or at least question.  If the Catalst wanted something, then Shepard could stand with or against it, and a real catharsis could be possible. 

Good point, I never noticed that, but you're right. Avina had more personality than the catalyst.

[Fapmaster5000]

daecath wrote...

Option 1 is a little too space-magic for my tastes. The whole reason why I hate the current synthesis option is because it is so space-magic. There's no technology shown that could be extrapolated to make sense of it. The same for the idea of a pocket universe.

I like the idea of synthesis being a change in the catalyst itself, but that gets a little too close to control. It could still work, as a fusion between Shepard and catalyst, but if the goal of synthesis is to create a lasting solution, then it should be something with an effect on the galaxy as a whole. Otherwise, what is the big green explosion for? 
 
That was another of my problems with the current ending. Giving everyone shiney green eyes and circuit boards doesn't solve the problem. There will always be those who will see differences and find a reason to hate because of them. Nothing about glowing eyes will change that. For synthesis to really be effective, you would have to create a synthesis in mind, giving people the ability to see others with empathy. That's probably one reason why the asari aren't shown as being in conflict with anyone. They have the ability to perform synthesis on an individual scale, so they would have a unique perspective.

I agree with youi on option one, but since one of my goals was to leave as much intact as I could, I had to leave "Space Magic" in the mix, even if I didn't like it and tried to imply that it really wasn't.

The difference I was going for with Control/Synthesis (which may have failed to get across, sadly.  I might have to poke at it again to get it to be more clear.) is that Control, in my alteration, would be about, "Can you trust the Catalyst enough to re-establish the tools of the Cycle, but now under your direction."  Whereas Synthesis would be a step further down that road, being, "Can you trust the Catalyst enough to let it continue, can you forgive it for what it's done, and can you prove it's core logic wrong not with force, but with hope?"  Control puts Shep in the Catalyst's seat, Synthesis would remove the need for the Catalyst.

Basically, I was going for:  

"The conflicts and failures of this entire galaxy can be chalked up to the perversity of the cycle.  The geth heretics, the Rachni wars, the depravity of the Terminus systems... all can be traced to the Reapers or the trap of their technology and influence.  The mortal races have banded together in defiance, and succeeded in rejecting the vision of the Catalyst's creators, and given it a way out.  To do so, it must rewrite its own core programming with the Crucible, but also banish the Reapers and their influence (hence why the green light would have to be spread around).  There would be no immediate "poof. machine parts" synthesis, but rather, the Catalyst would remove itself from the system, and allow the synthetics and organics to grow together, over time, inside a "new galaxy", speaking philosophically, not literally.

In this way, the Catalyst was Shepard meeting the true, erm... "Catalyst", and the "Crucible" was the Reaper War itself.  For all its horror, it was this shared horror that created the Synthesis needed to defeat it.  The Crucible might as well be a giant laser light show, the paradigm had already shifted, and the Catalyst simply needed a way to bugger it's own code and allow it to take the Reapers and "exit stage left", leaving a new synthesized galaxy behind."

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 28 avril 2012 - 08:13 .

[Fapmaster5000]

daecath wrote...

Good point, I never noticed that, but you're right. Avina had more personality than the catalyst.

Yup, it was something that came to me in while designing these.

The biggest change I made, after making the Catalyst a character rather than a device, was to reframe the ending from "Destroy, Control, Synthesis" into "Defy, Cooperate, Transcend".  That is, you could see the endings as three answers to the question:  "Can the Catalyst be trusted?", with each ending standing in for "No", "Yes", and "Why?".  

Likewise, the three endings could be viewed as the roads presented by Shepard's mentors/father-figures: Anderson and the Illusive Man.  Synthesis here would be "the third path" offered by an unexpected source.  Then the question from before returns.  "Can you trust the Catalyst?"

The goal was three, valid, non-contradictory endings that could each be the successful conclusion to the story, and to the questions.

[Fapmaster5000]

Oops I the post.

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 29 avril 2012 - 04:29 .

[Fapmaster5000]

So... post disappeared. Interesting.

[Dark Penitant]

This... somehow... managed to make me not hate synthesis with every iota of my being.
WHO. ARE. YOU.

[Veloric Wu]

I like this ending. At least I can convince myself to choose Control Reapers now.

I wish BioWare could adapt this ending and make it happen

[Abreu Road]

Hexley UK wrote...

Very creative....which is why Bioware won't do anything like it.

You know, there was a time that I would say that only Bioware could bring something like this. But not anymore.

You're right. They won't do anything like that. They can't be creative and artistic at the same time.

[Fapmaster5000]

Dark Penitant wrote...

This... somehow... managed to make me not hate synthesis with every iota of my being.
WHO. ARE. YOU.

Well, now I feel dirty for justifying Synthesis.  

And proud.  Thank you!

FeriktheCerberus wrote...

I like this ending. At least I can convince myself to choose Control Reapers now. 

I wish BioWare could adapt this ending and make it happen

Well, a guy can dream, right? 

Abreu Road wrote...

You know, there was a time that I would say that only Bioware could bring something like this. But not anymore.

You're right. They won't do anything like that. They can't be creative and artistic at the same time.

 

I still have hope, and trust in them.  Even great writers drop the ball sometimes.

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 29 avril 2012 - 06:55 .

[Bill Casey]

I hate it...
The Geth and EDI still die in Destroy, and Shepard lives in the other two endings...
Which I will never pick because I will never trust the Catalyst and the options are stupid...

So I'm still forced to commit genocide of all of the synthetics I worked so hard to defend the rights of and then I imagine my Shepard hanging himself out of guilt, while other people lap up the other two options...

You actually made the endings worse for me...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 29 avril 2012 - 07:19 .

[Fapmaster5000]

Bill Casey wrote...

I hate it...
The Geth and EDI still die in Destroy, and Shepard lives in the other two endings...
Which I will never pick because I will never trust the Catalyst and the options are stupid...

So I'm still forced to commit genocide of all of the synthetics I worked so hard to defend the rights of and then I imagine my Shepard hanging himself out of guilt, while other people lap up the other two options...

You actually made the endings worse for me...

Well, poop.

It didn't help that Catalyst might be wrong/not trustworthy (you could call it out on this), and that in the highest EMS/reputation Destroy, it can be inferenced that not everything died, since the Catalyst is assumed to be lying/wrong in that ending?

If I managed to poop ontop of poop, well then, dude, I'm sorry.

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 29 avril 2012 - 07:28 .

[Xandurpein]

I've been thinking along the same lines. I really don't like the Catalyst idea at all, but in the end it IS still Bioware's story, not mine. If they want to throw Starbrat at Shepard, that's there Story. In the end, what I need to be able to accept the ending, other than filling in the huge plot holes, is that Bioware gives me back the Player agency the ending rips from me. If some people want to accept Catalyst reasons, that's fine. They should have the option to do so, but I want to have Shepard act in a way that is consistent with how I have played him before.

I still think the green Space magic is unacceptable for a number of reasons. They have to come up with a way to change this to make it acceptable to me. Then again, I guess I can just chose not to do it.

[Fapmaster5000]

Xandurpein wrote...

I've been thinking along the same lines. I really don't like the Catalyst idea at all, but in the end it IS still Bioware's story, not mine. If they want to throw Starbrat at Shepard, that's there Story. In the end, what I need to be able to accept the ending, other than filling in the huge plot holes, is that Bioware gives me back the Player agency the ending rips from me. If some people want to accept Catalyst reasons, that's fine. They should have the option to do so, but I want to have Shepard act in a way that is consistent with how I have played him before.

I still think the green Space magic is unacceptable for a number of reasons. They have to come up with a way to change this to make it acceptable to me. Then again, I guess I can just chose not to do it.

Yeah, Space Magic is definately... space magic.

Hence why I opened the door to "there is nothing actually happening" in green, and that the "Synthesis" is allegorical in its entirety, and basically consists of the Catalyst using in-universe technobabble to blow up it's own code, via Shepard.

EDIT: But, yeah, I here you.  I think that Synthesis is the harshest challenge they face.  The people that like Synthesis will HATE if the EC changes it in nearly any way to make it less... space magic, while the people who hate the ending tend to REALLY HATE Synthesis, and any fix that doesn't address it may be insufficient.

I do not envy them, from a writing perspective.

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 29 avril 2012 - 07:32 .

[Bill Casey]

If the Geth/EDI live in high EMS Destroy, and Shepard lives in high EMS Control/Synthesis, I would consider that balanced...

Then it becomes about the actual choice your character should be thinking about...
People aren't then flocking to Destroy because Shepard can live, or avoiding it because EDI/Geth die; they are instead directly dealing with the core issue at hand...

There's too much "artificial weight" in the ending...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 29 avril 2012 - 07:37 .

[Fapmaster5000]

Bill Casey wrote...

If the Geth/EDI live in high EMS Destroy, and Shepard lives in high EMS Control/Synthesis, I would consider that balanced...

Then it becomes about the actual choice your character should be thinking about...
People aren't then flocking to Destroy because Shepard can live, or avoiding it because EDI/Geth die; they are instead directly dealing with the core issue at hand...

There's too much "artificial weight" in the ending...

I don't know what Bioware will do, but I can say where'd I'd go with it (drawing in EMS to balance endings, and have more relevance):

EMS represents the total effectiveness of the Crucible.

It represents the design, thoroughness, and execution of the device, plus the military might needed to deliver it on time, on target, in the heat of the battle of Earth.  A high EMS means that the Crucible/Catalyst behaves more in line with Shepard's (the galaxy's) goals, while a low EMS means that the Crucible/Catalyst behaves more in line with the Catalyst AI's original goals.

It's a programming battle of wills.  Low to high, each ending would progress like such:

EMS Destroy -> Destroys everything  / destroys only technology / destroys only all synthetic life / destroys only all Reaper-derived Synthetic life / destroys only the Reapers.

EMS Control -> Indoctrinated / Temporary Control / Can hinder the Reapers / merge with Catalyst / replace the Catalyst / replace the Catalyst and remain mentally as Shepard.

EMS Synthesis -> Not Available / Space Magic / Allegorical "long view" Synthesis / Allegorical "long view" Synthesis with extra dose of hope / Allegorical "long view" Synthesis, and the Catalyst rebuilds Shepard from the quantum scan before leaving of own free will.

Modifié par Fapmaster5000, 29 avril 2012 - 07:52 .

[Fapmaster5000]

Indeed.

[Dark Penitant]

That's. Damn, that's really, really good. I've always loathed synthesis on purely moral grounds (bodily sovereignty, anyone?) in addition to mainly stylistic and storytelling ones, but I have to say; this is damn good.
My only concern, however, is that synthesis may still seem to be an "optimal" ending, even if that's not its intent. I do like it a lot, however, I actually don't think it's possible to get 9000 EMS, even with multiplayer. I actually don't even think it's possible to get 8000, since I believe that it's just under 7950 possible War Assets, which kind of screws over the people playing offline.

[ElSuperGecko]

Great stuff. Gives me more hope than the IT does, anyway.

Really, I'd be happy just to see Shepard not just stand there and blindly and unquestioningly accept everything the Catalyst stays.

[Fapmaster5000]

Dark Penitant wrote...

That's. Damn, that's really, really good. I've always loathed synthesis on purely moral grounds (bodily sovereignty, anyone?) in addition to mainly stylistic and storytelling ones, but I have to say; this is damn good.
My only concern, however, is that synthesis may still seem to be an "optimal" ending, even if that's not its intent. I do like it a lot, however, I actually don't think it's possible to get 9000 EMS, even with multiplayer. I actually don't even think it's possible to get 8000, since I believe that it's just under 7950 possible War Assets, which kind of screws over the people playing offline.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to "balance" Synth, in my opinion.  It's either horror or golden, and I couldn't find a scaling home for it.  I tried to balance it out with the fact that the villain gets to walk away, unpunished, and balance out some moral gray in the Catalyst accordingly.  (It was trapped, but it was responsible, it KNOWINGLY engineered cycles for an eventual win condition, etc.)  Destroy/Synth actually seem to share more to me than Control (with the alterations I ran on them), with the main difference being (with full EMS) "Reapers eradicated" versus "Reapers leave".  Depends on justice versus forgiveness, I guess.  Eh, better than I'd hoped, not as good as I'd like.

As for EMS, that was simply me "oops"ing.  I thought the max was 9750, not 7950, hence the 9000 cap.  (Also, memes.)