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[Indoctrination]

On the topic of "decisions that matter," Laidlaw said BioWare is
looking to add more character agency ("My character has an active effect
on his or her world, determined by my choices") and player agency ("I
have control over my gameplay experience") to future Dragon Age games. And player decisions that carry over from game to game could be given more attention, he said.

The problem is that, if I recall correctly, Mr. Laidlaw also said that our decisions would have a deep impact on Dragon Age II. This turned out to be a very nasty fib. Likewise, we heard the same thing from marketing people when ME2 and ME3 were in development. These claims also turned out to be fibs. BioWare seems to have quite the little fibbing problem when it comes to marketing and decisions mattering (which finally blew up in the company's face with ME3).

Would anyone on the DA team be wiling to explain why this claim I've quoted here should be taken more seriously than similar claims for previous games BioWare released but couldn't deliver on when it came to in-game decisions? I really love Dragon Age. I love the setting, the lore, the places, the people, but I don't like being lied to. I want to believe in Dragon Age 3, but I can't help but feel I'm going to end up feeling betrayed again based on previous deceptions.

[Mermaid Claire]

Indoctrination wrote...
Would anyone on the DA team be wiling to explain why this claim I've quoted here should be taken more seriously than similar claims for previous games BioWare released but couldn't deliver on when it came to in-game decisions? I really love Dragon Age. I love the setting, the lore, the places, the people, but I don't like being lied to. I want to believe in Dragon Age 3, but I can't help but feel I'm going to end up feeling betrayed again based on previous deceptions.

Mike Laidlaw opened by stating, "We're not making promises here, we're talking about ideas."

[Maria Caliban]

They have dreams.

Those dreams will be crushed by the actual development cycle.

You'll be much happier if you accept that Dragon Age III will be largely like Dragon Age II, but with some improvements.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 07 avril 2012 - 04:21 .

[Plaintiff]

I didn't realise that your definition of 'deep impact' was the only one that counts.

[Maria Caliban]

Plaintiff wrote...

I didn't realise that your definition of 'deep impact' was the only one that counts.

What choices did you make in DA II that had deep impact?

Friendship vs Rivalry for your companions is the only one I can think of.

[Indoctrination]

Plaintiff wrote...

I didn't realise that your definition of 'deep impact' was the only one that counts.

You probably didn't realize it because no one said anything of that sort. I'm as curious as Maria when it comes to the decisions you made. Please list the decisions in DA2 you made which you feel had a deep impact on how the story played out.

[cJohnOne]

I think the OP makes a good point. I can't justify why I believe Mike Laidlaw since they said things in the past about DA2 that didn't really come about in the game but I do at the moment. Hopefully they are motivated to make a better game than last time in regard to choices that matter etc.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

BioWare has different way to define "My Character" and what consider as "Player Agency". To them and to some people ( based on DA 2 and ME 2. I'm not interested with SWTOR and ME 3 so I don't know about this 2 games ), My character is my puppet who I get to direct behind the curtain therefore, player agency is equal to controlling a puppet which is a small matter since it's all about moving point to point, picking dialogues and combat. They have no regards of who the character is, what his behaviour/response is, how the character feels, thinks and perceive since a simple 3 choice generic goody-goody character is universal acceptance for everyone as long as the story is good. See, this is where the problem lies. I define the character for me to fill in. The old BioWare under Brent Knowless shared this view with me. He left me a blank slate DAO character because he understands there is no such thing as universal acceptance generic character for everyone. You can't defined a character for everyone. My character IS my agency Everything the character does from feeling sad to killing a god IS under my control As long as BioWare cannot understand this, I'll continue to have problem with DA franchise. ( I don't have to mentioned the rest of BioWare's games that are not D&D like KoTOR, Jade Empire, Sonic Chronicles, ME etc... All this games are not for me. Baldur Gate, Neverwinter Night and DAO are the ones I'm looking for )

[Lucy Glitter]

Maria Caliban wrote...

They have dreams.

Those dreams will be crushed by the actual development cycle.

You'll be much happier if you accept that Dragon Age III will be largely like Dragon Age II, but with some improvements.

Indeed. :| BIOWAR NEED MOAR MONEYZ 4 DIZ. If I had a million dollars, i'd give it to BW. Probably. Maybe.

Yeah, I would.

Less expectations = more fun! 

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 07 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[Maria Caliban]

Do you want to know what DA III will be like? This is my assumption.

Take Dragon Age II, remove Hawke, Kirkwall, and the framed narrative. Set it in Orlais during the mage rebellion with a new PC.

Give it more maps, add more companion customization, tweak the dialogue wheel in some way, pull back the camera, and make the combat more 'tactical.'

Add the polish that DA II needed. Also, female dwarves and Qunari.

There. That's DA III.

[Arthur Cousland]

The thread title made me think of Parappa the Rapper...

I think I enjoyed DA2 more because after frequenting the forums, post-release, I began my first playthrough with low expectations. In the end, despite DA2's flaws, I liked the game overall.

Everyone would be doing themselves a favor by not expecting DA3 to be the best rpg ever, despite what Bioware and their marketing team would like us to believe.

Bioware don't need more money, especially since they're part of EA now. They just need the proper amount of time, and dedication, to make well-polished games without having to rush them out the door.

While I had fun playing as Hawke, I never really thought of him to be "me", or my character. I get that feeling more from games like Skyrim, who also allow you to play in first person. There, I feel like my character is an extension of myself, and I, through my character, am an adventurer, going about my business in Skyrim. The Dragon Age games are a bit too story-driven for the player to truly feel like they are the hero of the story.  DA2 was all about Hawke, as told by Varric, and the player didn't have much input on Hawke, outside of the level-up screen, and interaction with companions.

Modifié par Arthur Cousland, 07 avril 2012 - 06:28 .

[Indoctrination]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

Bioware don't need more money, especially since they're part of EA now. They just need the proper amount of time, and dedication, to make well-polished games without having to rush them out the door.

Time is money. Every day they spend developing game is a day they have to pay people a lot of money to develop it. Ultimately where DA2 fell short is the budget. They obviously didn't have the money they needed to make a complete game.

[bEVEsthda]

Maria Caliban wrote...

They have dreams.

Those dreams will be crushed by the actual development cycle.

You'll be much happier if you accept that Dragon Age III will be largely like Dragon Age II, but with some improvements.

Indeed. I have no problems sympathizing with the develoment team. Though I hate DA2, I've always said M.L. did a good job on DA2. Given the premises, he did. My feelings for the marketing team are completely different. If they wanted to try a game like DA2, which takes far more from ME2 than it should, they should never have made it as the sequel to DA:O.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Do you want to know what DA III will be like? This is my assumption.

Take Dragon Age II, remove Hawke, Kirkwall, and the framed narrative. Set it in Orlais during the mage rebellion with a new PC.

Give it more maps, add more companion customization, tweak the dialogue wheel in some way, pull back the camera, and make the combat more 'tactical.'

Add the polish that DA II needed. Also, female dwarves and Qunari.

There. That's DA III.

The problem, with what you foresee, is that a DA3 as a polished DA2 will not survive even initial days after the release. Because it will retain all the deal-breakers from DA2, and the community will be all geared up to condemn it. Such a DA3 will kill DA permanently.

There are solutions to all this. Bioware must find their way back to "the spiritual successor of BG". If zots are lacking for this, the things to cut down are cinematics and voice acting. and focus more on the ambient gameplay, like Skyrim.

But cinematics have now been decided upon as Bioware's big thing. This is a pity, because cinematics have never been really embraced by gamers. It's marketing people, reviewers and hi-level managers who are so enthusiastic, because it looks so dam good to them. Equally, Bioware seem to have locked themselves to a big problem, dialog wheel and voiced protagonist. So now they are facing the big problem of making that work.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but there sure are reasons to worry.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 07 avril 2012 - 09:36 .

[FedericoV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Do you want to know what DA III will be like? This is my assumption.

Take Dragon Age II, remove Hawke, Kirkwall, and the framed narrative. Set it in Orlais during the mage rebellion with a new PC.

Give it more maps, add more companion customization, tweak the dialogue wheel in some way, pull back the camera, and make the combat more 'tactical.'

Add the polish that DA II needed. Also, female dwarves and Qunari.

There. That's DA III.

That's my expecation as well. Pretty low I admit: anything more is a plus. Just remove any kind of tactical camera (sadly) or special PC content and replace it with deeper customization options and more flavour choice and consequences/slide epilogues in DA:O's style.

@OP

Don't stop Believin', hold on to that feelin': www.youtube.com/watch .

That's going to be my personal Bioware's anthem until DA3.

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 avril 2012 - 09:52 .

[-Semper-]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Do you want to know what DA III will be like? This is my assumption.

Take Dragon Age II, remove Hawke, Kirkwall, and the framed narrative. Set it in Orlais during the mage rebellion with a new PC and bring back the different races to choose from.

Give it more maps, add more companion customization, tweak the dialogue wheel in some way, pull back the camera, and make the combat more 'tactical.'

Add the polish that DA II needed. Also, female dwarves and Qunari. Add lots of senseless fan service, day 1 dlc to purchase, tons of gay same gender dating simulation, bio's special fake c&c, plain and badly written dialogues, boring quests with exactly two different solutions - kill either this or that group and enough cheese.

There. That's DA III.

asked the magic 8ball and corrected your post

are there still people out there believing all the marketing speech?! that's really funny^^

[kingtigernz]

Maria Caliban wrote...

They have dreams.

Those dreams will be crushed by the actual development cycle.

You'll be much happier if you accept that Dragon Age III will be largely like Dragon Age II, but with some improvements.

Looks like I'm not wasting my money on it then if that is the case.Why Bioware is hell bent on polishing a turd  is beyond me.I would not be suprised if they slim it down even further limiting people to play as a male human two handed warrior.

Modifié par kingtigernz, 07 avril 2012 - 10:53 .

[Giltspur]

You never know.  Sometimes Bioware comes back with a vengeance after criticism.  Compare the lameness of NWN's single-player campaign to the excellence of DAO's.  

DAO was more of a spiritual successor to BG than NWN was.  You might think that's irrelevant given NWN's focus on multiplayer, but a lot of people wanted NWN to be a spiritual successor to BG and were quite disappointed by it.  Bioware eventually responded with DAO.  So while some people invoke EA and like to think of Bioware as steadily trending down, Bioware seems, really, to be like anything else and have ups and downs for any particular gamer.  So maybe there will be new high points ahead.

[whykikyouwhy]

bEVEsthda wrote...

The problem, with what you foresee, is that a DA3 as a polished DA2 will not survive even initial days after the release. Because it will retain all the deal-breakers from DA2, and the community will be all geared up to condemn it. Such a DA3 will kill DA permanently.

This is a pretty broad generalization to make. It doesn't take into consideration the myriad of things that draw people to DA games - everything from combat mechanics, to rpg-ability, to story and scope.  So too, and I'm not going to attempt to give projections of numbers or ratios, a good portion of the community liked DA2, if even in part (again, for a myriad of reasons).

A polished, souped-up DA2 may not meet the expectations or desires of numerous players, but that doesn't mean that it will be hated, loathed, and despised by all, or even a broad number. It doesn't mean that the mobs will come forth with their pitchforks and torches and bring doom to the franchise. It might just be a case as with any DA game, or any game in general - some will like it, some will not. Because what people will want in a game will vary based on the individual.

What Maria Caliban described is something I would gladly buy and gladly play. Because the games thus far, despite some quirks and issues, have been enjoyable for me.

[Ryenke]

I want to believe, but I don't. I'd be thrilled to be wrong.

I won't buy DA3 til I check fan reviews to see what it is like. If a more polished DA2 is what it is, I will be sad and I won't purchase. That is what I expect.

Don't make me believe BW - Just deliver a great game that I'll want to play again and again and again like I did  do with Origins.

Modifié par Ryenke, 07 avril 2012 - 08:18 .

[Indoctrination]

-Semper- wrote...

are there still people out there believing all the marketing speech?! that's really funny^^

There really isn't an excuse for the people who do PR/marketing. "You should assume they're lying" or "they want to keep their promises, but they can't" are not excuses for BioWare employees blatantly lying to the public about the content of their games when it comes to decisions.

[Indoctrination]

I just want a little honesty and accountability! Is that so much to ask for?!

[Maria Caliban]

Indoctrination wrote...

I just want a little honesty and accountability! Is that so much to ask for?!

Mike is honestly telling us what his goals are for DA 3.

As for accountability, he's not making promises. He's said several times that these are what they want to do, not what they're guaranteeing.

There's no accountability in marketing. It exists to emotionally manipulate and mislead the consumer.

[Cantina]

Wait....Bioware lied to me? I've been unman!

Modifié par Cantina, 15 mai 2012 - 05:33 .

[Indoctrination]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Mike is honestly telling us what his goals are for DA 3.  As for accountability, he's not making promises. He's said several times that these are what they want to do, not what they're guaranteeing.  There's no accountability in marketing. It exists to emotionally manipulate and mislead the consumer.

At some point the formal marketing campaign will begin and he won't just be able to tell us his hopes and dreams. Then the PR staff will have to tell us what's actually in the game. They'll either tell us the truth or they'll lie.

"Marketing is supposed to be filled with lies!" is still not a valid excuse. Theives are supposed to steal things, but that doesn't make theft an ethically valid action, now does it?

[Sejborg]

Prior to the release of DA2 they even lied about the auto attack on ps3. They said auto attack would be included in the full game as an option, but that was just a straight up lie.

Then when people got the game and complaint about the missing auto attack option Bioware was just: "Woops LOL. We Forgot ^^"

Then one would think it would be a quick fix with a patch, but no. They took their sweet time to release a patch.

I mean what the hell? Why lie about an auto attack option?

The Dragon Age team is just not trustworthy.

Modifié par Sejborg, 15 mai 2012 - 09:01 .