159 réponses à ce sujet

[Belgarath001]

I don't mind carrying players as long as I don't constantly have to revive them or when I'm the only one trying for objectives.
If I'm constantly having to revive someone I'll stop reviving after I get the gold medal as it is just a waste of time and effort getting to them.

[Atheosis]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Besetment wrote...

The whole points thing is irrelevant and I wish people would stop using it to measure a player.

If you have 2x AAs, one warping and one throwing, then the one warping is going to get all the biotic explosions, most of the kills and therefore most of the points. The one throwing will get assists and nothing from enemies killed from biotic explosion AoE (despite triggering them).

Then there are the classes whose strength is in perform a role that isn't really about getting points, but allowing others on the team to rack em up - i.e. half blasting/nova cancelling Vanguards and Decoy Engineers. I mean screw the points really. If you have an all biotic team, the simple fact is you just don't work very well without a competant Vanguard taking all the heat, and it has nothing to do with points.

And then there are the people that rack em up but ruin it for everyone else in the process - the guys that follow your infiltrator on his solo 4/4 disarm run, thus drawing enemies to him (the exact opposite of what you want to do). The guys that are yelling at you to revive them after they got themselves into a bad position, which means you have to get into the same bad position so they can rack em up some more and you can die reviving again. The guys that only go where the kills are, even if it means leaving his teammates with exposed flanks or vulnerable to attack from behind.

Ultimately its a team game and the greatest benefits (exp and credits over time) are attained with highly organised teamplay and coordination. At various times you will have to carry your squaddies and they will have to carry you. I don't care as long as everyone makes an effort to play like a team, not like 4 individuals competing on score.

Points are generally correlative to player skill and strength of character build.

  They really don't.  They are at best ballpark estimates, and at worst misleading (for example, if guys are alternating warp/throw, the one using throw will get a lower score, despite his part being equally meaningful.  Also, revives and objectives don't get you much score).  However, while it is true that comparing high scores to see who was "best" is stupid, if someone has <30,000 points by wave 10 (and they didn't join late), something is seriously wrong.  The only way you can get such a low score on Gold is if you're basically doing nothing at all.

Note that I used the word "correlative" rather than "causal".

[GodlessPaladin]

Atheosis wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

Besetment wrote...

The whole points thing is irrelevant and I wish people would stop using it to measure a player.

If you have 2x AAs, one warping and one throwing, then the one warping is going to get all the biotic explosions, most of the kills and therefore most of the points. The one throwing will get assists and nothing from enemies killed from biotic explosion AoE (despite triggering them).

Then there are the classes whose strength is in perform a role that isn't really about getting points, but allowing others on the team to rack em up - i.e. half blasting/nova cancelling Vanguards and Decoy Engineers. I mean screw the points really. If you have an all biotic team, the simple fact is you just don't work very well without a competant Vanguard taking all the heat, and it has nothing to do with points.

And then there are the people that rack em up but ruin it for everyone else in the process - the guys that follow your infiltrator on his solo 4/4 disarm run, thus drawing enemies to him (the exact opposite of what you want to do). The guys that are yelling at you to revive them after they got themselves into a bad position, which means you have to get into the same bad position so they can rack em up some more and you can die reviving again. The guys that only go where the kills are, even if it means leaving his teammates with exposed flanks or vulnerable to attack from behind.

Ultimately its a team game and the greatest benefits (exp and credits over time) are attained with highly organised teamplay and coordination. At various times you will have to carry your squaddies and they will have to carry you. I don't care as long as everyone makes an effort to play like a team, not like 4 individuals competing on score.

Points are generally correlative to player skill and strength of character build.

  They really don't.  They are at best ballpark estimates, and at worst misleading (for example, if guys are alternating warp/throw, the one using throw will get a lower score, despite his part being equally meaningful.  Also, revives and objectives don't get you much score).  However, while it is true that comparing high scores to see who was "best" is stupid, if someone has <30,000 points by wave 10 (and they didn't join late), something is seriously wrong.  The only way you can get such a low score on Gold is if you're basically doing nothing at all.

Note that I used the word "correlative" rather than "causal".

It's a pretty loose correlation at best.  But yeah, you can use it to draw certain conclusions, especially with extreme values.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 07 avril 2012 - 10:44 .

[zhk3r]

Besetment wrote...

The score does not show how much you contributed. It shows what you were allowed to contribute to the scoreboard.

For example, anybody can rack up a monstrous score with an Adept vs any enemy, but particularly reapers. This is true. The question is: have you been allowed to do so?

Because I've played public games where I've been left on my own, self detonating my own biotics (slowly) and I'm getting shot to pieces. I'm hiding behind cover most of the time to regen shields and my whole team is getting overwhelmed. I have to check that my teammates aren't getting flanked or backstabbed which is time not spent detonating biotics but sure, someone has got to do it?

And then there are times when I play private games with a half blast/nova cancel Vanguard and tandem biotics with everyone on mics, where you literally don't need to use cover at all. Your Vanguard is basically a mobile wall/stagger machine in front of you and your whole team just moves around the map blowing stuff up at an incredible rate.

At that point I have to concede that you do nothing in this game by yourself and the only way to prove otherwise is to solo Gold by yourself. Even the most useless teammate is still a decoy to draw fire as long as they are alive.

While I agree with most of what you're saying, I do have some things to say:

> Teammates who die more than they kill are not good decoys. 
> Getting the 15 Revives Medal by Wave 3 as a Vanguard should not be necessary.
> Infiltrators should (on Gold) focus on objectives, especially the hacking ones. 

I counted a total of 37 revives before I lost count. I really should have recorded the game - People would be astounded. I went down a couple of times, I lay on the ground, mashing Spacebar just to hear "Team member offline" three times, meaning I have to get up and revive the rest of my team. As a Vanguard, I shouldn't be the one primarily hacking objectives either. On Wave 3 and 6 we get the same one, I hack all 8 of them. And it's not like the spawn next to each other either, it's Reactor and they spawn in very bad spots at imes.

> No biotics on the team (Quarian Infiltrator - Salarian Infiltrator - Turian Sentinel). 
(The Turian didn't use his Powers at any time, even when I asked him to Warp, Banshee's to avoid my own death).
> The Quarian Infiltrator used a M-98 Widow and I think he hit a total of 3 shots throguhout the game.
> The Salarian ended on second place, with a decent score of 58.000, which is okay. 
> The Turian ended in third place, didn't even read his score.
> The Quarian had a total of 9000 points in Wave 10.

It's not about how much they were "allowed" to contribute. The only reason that team made it past Wave 2 is because I was there. And don't think I'm selling myself as the best player alive, I'm simply trying to state that some people really shouldn't be opt-ing for Gold. If you can't pull your weight, or even hold your own in a Gold match - I don't see why you insist on playing it. Are you just hoping to get into a game with a few decent people, to leech credits or what? It can't be fun not doing anything other than killing a Cannibal, then being killed yourself by the Marauder behind you.

[frozngecko]

Trae ThaThruth wrote...

I don't mind carrying a match but being kicked after the match by the same 3 I had to carry (soloing 1 of the rounds) when their combine score equaled mine is when I start minding

I don't even want to tell you how many times that has happened. I don't even play with strangers anymore because of it.

Had to carry this one guy around...all the while complaining that he shouldn't have bought the game and how hard it was....and it was freaking Bronze.

He did everything bad by the book. Didn't retreat and got surrounded. I told him to stick with me and he kept leaving off doing his own thing...I just didn't want to revive him anymore.

Left the game after that.

[cralexns]

Don't mind carrying people as far as score goes, what matters in the end is whether they contribute to the teamplay or not. Someone running off on their own and getting killed all the time is not a nice person to carry as they add nothing but trouble. Someone covering your back and therefore not getting top score is directly contributing to victory, don't care about their score at all!

Modifié par cralexns, 07 avril 2012 - 10:49 .

[Besetment]

GodlessPaladin wrote...
The "most useless teammate" is not merely a null sum... he affects enemy movement and spawns in counterproductive ways (this can actually be a big one.  Being able to manipulate the patterns of the hoard is important when soloing, and when you're carrying you're mostly soloing), gets the guy doing the device activation hit and staggerred, interrupts your combos while doing no real damage, takes up inconvenient spaces and can hinder ally movement or ability to take cover et cetera, breaks phantoms out of stasis prematurely (while not really hurting them), lure other players to their deaths when they go down  foolishly and demand revives, and is disruptive or just plain rude in communication (or in some cases even provide misleading information).  I've had games with four players that felt harder to me than my solo gold runs.

I'm not saying teammates cannot work against you. But if that bothers you, why on earth are you pugging? You should be playing private games. If you pug it you have to accept the randomness of being paired with people that mess you up. All you can do is politely tell them over the mic that they are messing you up and if they stop they stop. If they don't they don't. Whatever.

[Dark Dajin]

Scores: (bronze)
Me: 135,000
2nd: 28,000
3rd: 19,000

Yes, this is the exception, but I really disliked playing that game.

Also, I generally am more dumbfounded than anything, when I just sit in my little spot and shoot anything that comes near me. And still double the 2nd player, even when not shooting anything in 3-4 waves...

[GGW KillerTiger]

 It depends on what class/species I'm carrying with. If it's a slarian infiltrator/engineer or quarian infiltrator then I understand but when I'm carrying with a korgan soldier ..... Then what the hell is the rest of the team doin? ...... Most of the time I find out all 3 others are leeching (on gold! like wtf?)

[Joyce_Esther]

just played a silver match using a krogan sentinel lvl 19, the moment wave 1 was announced, i heard "team member offline" followed by another team member offlined, i don't know how many times i've revive them, they keep dying!! i've run out of medigels and manage to survive till wave 5, then i died.

[Besetment]

zhk3r wrote...
The only reason that team made it past Wave 2 is because I was there. And don't think I'm selling myself as the best player alive, I'm simply trying to state that some people really shouldn't be opt-ing for Gold. If you can't pull your weight, or even hold your own in a Gold match - I don't see why you insist on playing it. Are you just hoping to get into a game with a few decent people, to leech credits or what? It can't be fun not doing anything other than killing a Cannibal, then being killed yourself by the Marauder behind you.

I dont disagree with you but again, why are you pugging? You ask why they insist on playing public gold when they cannot pull their weight? Why do you insist on playing public gold when you know this is all part of random matchmaking?

Its random so the best you can do if you realise this is try to win like always and if that isn't possible, just lose quickly, boot the guy when you return to the lobby and hope the next randomer wants to be on the same page as you. I've long given up getting annoyed at people in random team games. I know how to make it work if I want to and I have people on my f-list that can make it happen if they want to.

Modifié par Besetment, 07 avril 2012 - 10:56 .

[zhk3r]

Besetment wrote...
I dont disagree with you but again, why are you pugging? You ask why they insist on playing public gold when they cannot pull their weight? Why do you insist on playing public gold when you know this is all part of random matchmaking?

Its random so the best you can do if you realise this is try to win like always and if that isn't possible, just lose quickly, boot the guy when you return to the lobby and hope the next randomer wants to be on the same page as you. I've long given up getting annoyed at people in random team games. I know how to make it work if I want to and I have people on my f-list that can make it happen if they want to.

I usually don't - Actually that was the second PUG I've played in quite a while, didn't have any friends available at the moment and I wanted to start stockpiling money for the DLC. I know it's random, and I know BioWare can't buff teammates, but I still find it annoying. The blame isn't entirely on the players as new ones will always land in Gold lobbies because of the Search feature in this game (Any difficulty). I rarely vent concerning PUGs, but carrying people can be quite a hassle if you're the only decent player in the lobby. Playing with friends is always the way to go because you know their playstyle, communicating is easier and most of the time things don't grow annoying. 

[Lord Deshwitat]

I'm not the best player and I stay out of gold unless my friends on Origin ask me to join. And yes, they need to carry me a bit, but they don't seem to mind. I do what I can and always do the objectives, but I also do die from time to time and they always revive me without complaning. I thank you guys who gives me a chance.
On the other hand when I play silver, I do allow people with low n7 to join. I want to give them a chance, just as my friends gave me one. I play because I find it fun to play with others once in a while. If you talk, fine, I talk with you. I can also be quiet and do the waves. I almost always play the support member. That means I stay in the back, checking so nothing creeps up from behind and I stand ready to revive those who are out killing. I snipe what I can without losing focus on my teammates backs. I almost always come out last on the scoreboard. Does that make me a bad player?
I have 2 classes I haven't played yet and I'm guessing when I try them out I will die alot. It takes time for me to get the hang of a new class. I do this on bronze of course. And I hope my random teammates can bare with me as I learn. Just like I bare with those who wants to learn when I'm the better one. If you fail, well, try again. We get a full round sooner or later and we can have fun in the meantime.
I'm ranting... Just wanted to vent out. Sorry...

//LordDesh

And I don't promote my classes, well I have done it once, so my n7 score is a bit low, but that don't mean I'm a new player.

Modifié par Lord Deshwitat, 07 avril 2012 - 11:15 .

[Cybernetix646]

I don't mind carrying, although the krogan or vanguard (or both in the next update) that melees and dies to the group of pyros over and over does become tiring once i've received a medal solely from the revives on him

[Mystical_Gaming]

I personally enjoy the challenge and excitement that comes when all your teammates have died and it's just you left. I try to revive as much as I can in silver but sometimes it isn't enough and they all die and I get them to the next round going all solo.

Unlike FPS games I am really not critical of players in this game in any way shape or form. We're all wanting to have fun in a PvE game and I know full well not everyone in every lobby I get in will have good awareness or be as skilled as I am. I just played a silver match on firebase Dagger where two of my teammates constantly kept getting downed because they weren't aware 3 geth pyros were creeping up behind them. This happened like the entire match.

While I'm using crappy guns like the Incisor II or a Mantis III and getting us to the next wave going solo they mostly have spectre pack weapons and still die. I think it's fair to say I do my part on the team to the fullest capacity possible lol. I would be bored if every match I had grade A players where we cut through the matches like butter, that would get too easy and then become stale. Besides I live stream and record everything I game for youtube. Makes exciting gameplay for my viewers when I'm the last Quarian standing =)

[withneelandi]

paincanbefun wrote...

firstly, score doesn't, in my opinion, directly measure contribution. especially with a support class like an engineer. the ability to do cloaked rezes and captures and to stasis f-ing phantoms is very valuable.

 

This a million times over.

Just as a support player with a low score can actually be making a massive contribution, playing a support role, removing shields or whatever, a player with a high score can actually not be doing wonders for the team as a whole.

Similarly, a massive gap in score can actually just indicate selfish play or lack or teamwork from certain classes, its easy to rack up kills when you pay no attention to objectives, hack areas and make no effort to revive players standing right next to you.

Much more skill is required, say has a vanguard to work with the other players, cover their weaknesses and allow them to cover yours. The best games I play have even scores, because everyone pulls their weight AND no one plays selfishly. It works two ways.

[KennyAshes]

Note : I mainly play Quarian Engineer

On Bronze i can perfectly carry a team spamming Cryo - BUUURRRRRRRRRRRNBIAAAAAACH and get scores 40k - 50k higher than the others.
On silver (depending on the team) and gold i basically just use Cryo and turret to help - save others from taking a lot of damage which leads me to dangle at the bottom. (because I don't have a decent sniperrifle or anything ... )
In all honesty I rather dangle at the bottom saving people than being in the middle being an ass playing a solo game.

[Drakham]

Carrying to me means if the person was usefull to reach the extraction or not.
If someone has less or more points or even zero i do not care.

On the other side zero points would mean he did nothing so thats a bit extreme.
I think some players should stop equaling xp earned by assisting and killing is all in the game for a successful gold run (same goes for silver but to a lesser degree).

The guy getting more xp only means he got the kill first. And that does not necessarily mean he is "carrying" somebody else, I would agree with the first example of someone shooting at everything and accomplishing nothing but if he did not die he was at least a nice decoy for the enemy.

the second example i cant see as being carried by other players because reviving somebody else does not count as being "carried" in my book at least.
20-50k xp difference between third and last place seems a bit extreme but again it could just mean that you have 3 players who are fast in killing and maybe it only worked because the salarian engineer was decoying all the time.

[Barrybarfly]

Stenun wrote...

Most of the time I play Silver (not all, I happily admit to it not being all the time) I find that I am among the better half of the players in the team.  And in fact, I quite often find myself "carrying" the other players.  I had a game earlier tonight in which one player - despite running around and firing their gun like a lunatic - still had a score of less than 10,000 when we fully extracted.  And, well ... so what?
I don't see that it was a problem.  Myself and one of the other players did most of the work, the aforementioned less good player ran around firing entire assault rifle clips at anything that even vaguely looked shifty, and the fourth player helped out too.
And we simply played the game and enjoyed ourselves.

Then, as I always do at the end of an evening's play, I joined a Gold team.  And I ended up being carried myself.  I ran around cloaked, reviving and headshotting (well, I aimed for headshots *g*), and as we got Full Extraction, I had less than half the score of the 2nd ranked player.
And nobody minded.  We simply played the game and enjoyed ourselves.

Why does it matter if not everyone meets your exacting standards?  I bet you don't always meet other peoples standards either.  So simply play the game and enjoy yourself.  And let others do the same. 


I fully realise this thread is going to have very little effect on most of the people it's aimed at but I felt like I should say something.  The attitude of many of the people on here and in the game is very tiresome.
Just relax and enjoy the game.  You don't have to turn a co-op game into a competitive one. 

If someone is helping with timed objectives (not running around the other side of the map during an upload for example) and doing their best to function as part of a team (IE, using warp that others detonate, detonating others' warps, reviving, stripping shields, focusing on priority targets like geth primes, etc) then I dont consider it to be a case of carying them. Simply a case of them being weaker players who do their best and are useful to the team.

But if you want to run around on your own doing zero and expect me to run through all the enemy to pick you up when you fall over then forget it! I pick up TEAMMATES not people who play as if it is a single player N7 campaign mission.

I'll happily play with people from the first category forever and a day, but the "solo" players arent welcome. Its a COOPERATIVE TEAM game. Play it as such.

Although, as long as I have fun, I'm really not that fussed if I'm honest about it! lol

[Freskione2]

I'm not fast enough nor as a good shot as others so I'm usually last which can be disheartening when I know I've put in a good effort. I do try though.

Some people are just really, really competitive though and seem to get annoyed if they think they are carrying the team or one person in particular.

However, sometimes I have days where I play great, good, bad and stupid depending on all kinds of variables.

Modifié par Freskione2, 07 avril 2012 - 12:27 .

[AdeptX111]

Personally, I don't mind carrying people. Do it all the time. People stop being carried when you talk about the scores during the game. They start to try. Kind of like a positive reinforcement. But there is no reason to boot someone or what not because of it. Just help them out, we all have lazy moments.

Just like that one time, a Decoy camp where all you wanted to do was pull the LB button to deploy decoy and just sit there, watching the Prime walk by.

It is a game, just relax and enjoy the ride, you lose you lose. Can't win them all, and if you could, it would be no fun.

[Stardusk]

People like teammates that pull their weight.

[GodlessPaladin]

Besetment wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...
The "most useless teammate" is not merely a null sum... he affects enemy movement and spawns in counterproductive ways (this can actually be a big one.  Being able to manipulate the patterns of the hoard is important when soloing, and when you're carrying you're mostly soloing), gets the guy doing the device activation hit and staggerred, interrupts your combos while doing no real damage, takes up inconvenient spaces and can hinder ally movement or ability to take cover et cetera, breaks phantoms out of stasis prematurely (while not really hurting them), lure other players to their deaths when they go down  foolishly and demand revives, and is disruptive or just plain rude in communication (or in some cases even provide misleading information).  I've had games with four players that felt harder to me than my solo gold runs.

I'm not saying teammates cannot work against you. But if that bothers you, why on earth are you pugging? You should be playing private games. If you pug it you have to accept the randomness of being paired with people that mess you up. All you can do is politely tell them over the mic that they are messing you up and if they stop they stop. If they don't they don't. Whatever

Accepting it doesn't mean I have to like it.  It also doesn't mean I have any obligation to not boot the players working against me right after the first match I play with them ends.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 07 avril 2012 - 12:30 .

[Zerox Z21]

Bit of both. Nothing more annoying than seemingly intentionally useless players, but equally there's such a thing as elitism too. People do need a chance to actually learn the basics (though I criticise this as ME has been single player for two games before multiplayer, so they shouldn't be as useless as some I've seen).
I got kicked from a silver lobby for being a turian sentinel with the phaeston. Don't use it now, but it's all I had because I hadn't had the chance to unlock anything better. That kind of elitism is real douchey, and I think worse because it's very deliberate rather than simply being rubbish or something.

[Dr-Rai1]

staindgrey wrote...

The number doesn't matter. It's when someone...

- Isn't helping on objectives.
- Can't be relied upon to watch his side of the map.
- Has to be rescued over and over again.
- Is overall just playing dumb.

That sort of "carrying", I find annoying. If the guy's doing fine but isn't contributing as much? That's cool. If he's not only not contributing, but also adding difficulty because of the way he plays? Yeah. I wanna kick that guy.

This sums my thoughts up perfectly, can't pull your own weight? I'm not playing with you.