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Beginning of the end for Bioware?


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#126
OhoniX

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No, but did you ever need to take control of another character to
set an enemy up for a combo.  Like have your mage freeze them so the
warrior can shatter them?  Or could you basically let the AI go on
autopilot without worrying about tactics or combinations. 

If
you did not set up spell combos or other tactics in you would lose most
fights in DA:O. Conversely, in DA2, you never even thought about it
because you could let the AI go on autopilot.


speak for yourself, I was constantly setting up combos in DA2. I had a ton of fun making things brittle and then slamming my warrior into them, or making things loopy and then hitting them with a chain lightning and watchign them explode. If you weren't using effect combos then you were missing half the fun! The only thing I never got around to was "disorient" combos, I forget whether this was because the moves that set it up or the ones that took it down were lame, but it was one of the two.

The problem as a whole is that the story gets too sidetracked with
the Qunari in the second chapter.  This leads to the player to ask the
question, "Is this story about the mages and templars, or the Qunari
invasion?".  Thus, the plot can be confusing as to what the focal point
of the story is at times.


Fair enough, I sort of took it as a three part narative, in which the Qunari represented an outside threat, basically giving you an outside perspective on the nature of magic and control and that sort of thing, which then influenced the choices you make in Act 3. Yes, on the face of it Act 2 didn't have a lot that directly fed into Act 3, but the destablizing effect it had allowed the Templars to consolodate, which was the political implications, and then they also interacted with the player and with Hawke, in ways that should have influenced how you viewed the later actions of the Templars and Circle.

It was more or less the "Tuchanka arc" of DA2.

True enough, this is a matter of perspective, but I think it is a
fair bet to say Morrigan is the fan favorite, cannot verify it though. 


This is true enough, but it doesn't really say anything bad about DA2, aside from that Morrigan wasn't in it. Some characters are bad, some are good, and some are great. Morrigan was great, pretty much everyone else in DA:O was somewhere between bad and good, most of the characters in DA2 were between good and great, but none quite at the level of Morrigan. Aside from Merrill, perhaps. But on average, even incluing Anders they were a higher calibur cast of characters than in DA:O.

the problem is nothing that's happened since DA:2 suggests
they've learned from the mistakes. Or even think they've made any
mistakes.


Which is so weird, because the community also hasn't shown that they've learned from their mistakes, either. Or even think they've made any
mistakes. You'd think by now that they might have realized that they weren't right in the first place.

And why, exactly, would they want to do that? I'm not going to
argue that Bioware hasn't had to cut corners, but that probably has as
much to do with the scope they want in their games as it does with any
deadline imposed by EA.


Yeah, the thing is, Bioware is a game company, and developing games cost money. If a game is rushed out the door, then it's because the project has run out of money and they need to start making it back. By being a part of EA, they have less need to do this, because they can tap EA if necessary, while as a standalone company they'd need to tap their own, more limited reserves. It's fair to assume that even if DA2 and ME3 were rushed from where Bioware would ideally have liked it, without EA's financial backing they probably would have been forced to release the games even sooner and less finished.

All the N7 missions were recycled MP maps. And the citadel fetch
quests were worse than recycled enviroments. ME3 is also even more
linear.


The N7 maps are indeed shared with multiplayer, but you only need to do each of them once in single player, so I would hardly call that "recycling". And the citedel fetch quests were fun. I wouldn't buy a whole game for them, but I liked the little dialog segments a lot more than when running similar quests in DA:O or DA2. I don't know how anyone could get upset about them, I'm thinking perhaps that some people did them wrong, like picked one up, ran out to find that thing, came back, ran out for another one, etc. It's much more convenient to just pick them all up, then fully explor every system out there, and then come back with all the loot and hand it out to the necessary parties.

Not to mention Mike Laidlaw saying we are not going back to what
made DA:O great because "DA:O was broken." Right in the middle of a
thread about poeople saying they wanted some more DA:O elements back.


What's unreasonable about that? Just because people say that they want more DAO elements doesn't mean that they should get them.

Now I believe I made my point.  We have 2 games that the fans
did not like at all,  and were very vocal about on the forums.  Some are
upset to the point where some people are doubting if they will buy
another Bioware game.


And yet their last three major releases have sold in the millions. Like it or not, people LIKED all three of them. People actually thought that they were really good, and will likely buy their next games as well. Yes, a VERY loud minority is making complete jack###es of themselves all over their message boards, but there's nothing they can really do about that, so their only real option is to stay calm and carry on.

If by "how Kirkwall has changed" you mean that it remained exactly the same through 10 years, then yea, we can agree on that. 

The "10 year-long" story was jsut a marketing slogan. The whoel plot could ahve happened in a couple of weeks.


that would be a very busy three weeks, given that Aveline went from newbie guard to married guard captain, Hawke went from refugee to champion, the city was razed and then rebuilt, etc.

#127
Carlthestrange

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Nah, they'll limp through this. Targeting the casual market is one heck of a money maker.

#128
GreenDragon37

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 Yes. It's what happens when you're bought-out by EA.
Westwood, Maxis, now BioWare. The cycle keeps continuing.

#129
upsettingshorts

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GreenDragon37 wrote...

 Yes. It's what happens when you're bought-out by EA.
Westwood, Maxis, now BioWare. The cycle keeps continuing.


If BioWare hadn't been bought out by EA they would have "ended" years ago.  Why do you think they took the money, for the hell of it?

Jade Empire's poor sales and Dragon Age being stuck in development hell would have been the end.

Look at them now, releasing three AAA titles within roughly a year.  Yeah, they're in rough shape.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 avril 2012 - 04:34 .


#130
sfam

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SuraklinPrime wrote...

But I also worry that part of the problem is that companies are trying to develop across platforms that do not share the same audience - i.e. I think what a PC player wants to play is quite different to what a console player wants, the control systems are not really very compatible between the two and even the types of people who play on each platform can be quite different. Thus you get games which don't really meet anyone's ideal gaming experience because they are forced to fit into two (or more) very different audiences...

I understand the desire of companies to sell one game across many platforms but I think it ultimately makes gaming less pleasurable for all of us.


I'm going to disagree with you here.  I love robust RPGs, but honestly, after spending hours and hours on a computer all day, I'd far prefer going to my home theater with a comfy couch, surround sound and a 65" widescreen TV to play games.  I love it that games like the Witcher are now coming out for XBox 360.  I'm more than willing to sacrifice some keyboard controls in order to do this. 

One problem I had with DA: Origins though is there was a critical bug on the XBox platform, which made it impossible for me to save after completing like 3/4 of the game.  I ended up stopping playing it till a patch came out months later.  This as much as anything prevented me from buying DA:2 immediately. Based on the reviews of only a few rooms where all the action took place, I bypassed it altogether in favor of the truly awesome Skyrim experience.

#131
T-0pel

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Apples and oranges... DA2 was a rushed mediocre game that was still kind of fun to play. ME3 is a masterpiece with minor flaws but with perfectly executed impactful scenes. I really dont understand what happened at the end, it feels like some other company did it...
So yeah, the only thing we can hope for now is that the extended DLC makes the endings at least a bit less painfull and that Bioware got the message for future games. But I definately wont preorder anything for a long time.

#132
CARL_DF90

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Yeah. Probably. Bioware is so out of touch it's not even funny. If any of those people thought the ending we got was good then they are simply idiots. This article right here gives a VERY details breakdown of what's wrong with it. A wonderful read that everyone here and at Bioware HQ should read.


http://jmstevenson.w...-mass-effect-3/

#133
upsettingshorts

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CARL_DF90 wrote...

Yeah. Probably. Bioware is so out of touch it's not even funny. If any of those people thought the ending we got was good then they are simply idiots. This article right here gives a VERY details breakdown of what's wrong with it. A wonderful read that everyone here and at Bioware HQ should read.


http://jmstevenson.w...-mass-effect-3/


Make a game that, until the very end, people really like.  Tack on crappy ending that the vast majority of people dislike.

OUT OF TOUCH COMPANY BEYOND FATHOMING, DESERVES TO GO UNDER COMPLETELY.

Nope.  Never thinking that logic isn't totally stupid and narcissistic.  

#134
T-0pel

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Dark_Caduceus wrote...

otis0310 wrote...

I think Bethesda is already picking up a lot of Bioware's fan base.


A real shame Skyrim's story line doesn't even compare to the ME universe.


lol yeah, Bethesda does a completely different types of games. I have invested 109 hours into Skyrim and enjoyed it very much, but it is a openworld sandbox type of game, the story was laughable in comparison with any Bioware game, because it is not a story driven game. Hell there are a LOT of Bethesda fans that never even complete the storyline and spend their whole time doing the quests they want.

#135
Wolvy

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I do not believe it's the beginning of the end for Bioware either. There have been many posts stating very good reasons why they won't. I enjoyed DA2 myself. I was a little iffy on the endings as I preferred the DAO endings. I also enjoyed ME3 I didn't hate the endings but I did scratch my head on them. I also look forward to the EC DLC and DA3.

I understand that some fans don't like the endings or want new endings put in and they have the right to their opinion and to ask for things to be changed. If they aren't changed or to the fans satisfaction then they also have the right to vote with their wallet. I do believe there will be a lot of fans that may leave or not buy another game from EA/Bioware. But I also believe that EA/Bioware will also pick up new fans to both the DA series and to the ME series and any future games they will release.

Yes fans can tell their friends, family, or co-workers not to buy any games from them but that also doesn't mean they may listen to that fan. I don't listen to my friends or family when they tell me they don't like something or they aren't buying something for their reasons. I believe it if appeals to me then I am going to buy it to try it out or watch it. If I in turn end up not liking then I lose my money I put into it.

I also believe that companies will have times where the game they make may not be a huge success or not received at well as they intended. But because I may not have liked one game or parts of a game but think the rest was awesome doesn't mean I won't like what they come up with next. If it catches my attention then I am going to buy it.

#136
Sarevok Synder

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

GreenDragon37 wrote...

 Yes. It's what happens when you're bought-out by EA.
Westwood, Maxis, now BioWare. The cycle keeps continuing.


If BioWare hadn't been bought out by EA they would have "ended" years ago.  Why do you think they took the money, for the hell of it?

Jade Empire's poor sales and Dragon Age being stuck in development hell would have been the end.

Look at them now, releasing three AAA titles within roughly a year.  Yeah, they're in rough shape.



You're claiming EA spent 750 million on a company that was in financial trouble?........... Image IPB


Get real!

#137
wesr

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I don't think they were in financial trouble but i think they had enough of a slip in finances that selling to EA made sense. Plus who knows how execs think, they only see the world in dollar signs.

#138
upsettingshorts

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Sarevok Synder wrote...

You're claiming EA spent 750 million on a company that was in financial trouble?........... Image IPB

Get real!


You're claiming that BioWare would have sacrificed its status as the largest independent developer for... no reason?

BioWare's brand and talent were massively valuable, but they were on shaky financial footing.  

They had released Jade Empire, which flopped.  They were developing - secretly at the time - SWTOR, which as we all know now was hugely expensive, Dragon Age eventually took seven years to release (and nobody in their right mind plans to take seven years to release a game), and Mass Effect 1 was a 360 exclusive.  Let's also not forget this.  If you can read that scenario and imagine they were doing anything other than bleeding money, you're crazy.

Think about it for more than two seconds:  

Why would a self-sustaining business agree to a buyout that eliminates their independence?  

What motivation would a major publisher have in acquiring a noteworthy, successful developer currently in a difficult position?

In what way would such an arrangement benefit both parties?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 avril 2012 - 05:58 .


#139
Sarevok Synder

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Upsettingshorts wrote...


You're claiming that BioWare would have sacrificed its status as the largest independent developer for... no reason?

BioWare's brand and talent were massively valuable, but they were on shaky financial footing.  

They had released Jade Empire, which flopped.  They were developing - secretly at the time - SWTOR, which as we all know now was hugely expensive, Dragon Age eventually took seven years to release (and nobody in their right mind plans to take seven years to release a game), and Mass Effect 1 was a 360 exclusive.  If you can read that scenario and imagine they were doing anything other than bleeding money, you're crazy.

Think about it for more than two seconds:  

Why would a self-sustaining business agree to a buyout that eliminates their independence?  

What motivation would a major publisher have in acquiring a noteworthy, successful developer currently in a difficult position?

In what way would such an arrangement benefit both parties?




Proof that they were in financial trouble, you know, beyond your bald assertions?


750 Million is hardly no reason.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 08 avril 2012 - 05:56 .


#140
upsettingshorts

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Sarevok Synder wrote...

Proof that they were in financial trouble, you know, beyond your bald assertions?


750 Million is hardly no reason.


Continue believing what you want.  The evidence makes it clear to anyone paying attention.

Obviously BioWare just saw the money and flipped out, they hadn't tried other measures first to shore up their finances or anything.

According to Elevation, the BioWare/Pandemic deal is even bigger than the Eidos acquisition, being a "combined investment" of more than $300 million, including future funding. It also could have major repercussions within the game industry. Its express design is to sidestep the traditional publisher-developer relationship, where the latter is dependent on the former for funding, via the injection of outside capital.

"Some developers have chosen the path of selling to publishers, and that's a viable path," Resnick told GameSpot. "We have specifically chosen not to go down that route because it was important for us to maintain our independence. You know we really look for inspiration in companies like Pixar, because they're able to remain independent from distribution partners and increase their focus on creating great products."

However, Muzyka told GameSpot that the deal does not mean BioWare/Pandemic will be abandoning its strong ties to its publishing partners. "They might feel threatened by something like this, but we absolutely see the reverse," he told GameSpot. "We really do look at this new venture as a means to improve our ability to deliver a great product. And that's always good for our publishing partners."


Oh.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 avril 2012 - 06:02 .


#141
Hexley UK

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I think "beginning of the end" is a bit dramatic, i'm waiting to see what they do with the EE first.

Judging by who they have working on it I think it may just pull the ending out of the fire.

On another note I think at the very least this debacle might make EA leave Bioware alone to do their work properly next time and give them the resources and TIME they need.

#142
Sarevok Synder

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Upsettingshorts wrote...



Continue believing what you want.  The evidence makes it clear to anyone paying attention.

Obviously BioWare just saw the money and flipped out, they hadn't tried other measures first to shore up their finances or anything.




No evidence just your bald assertions. Again, why would EA pay so much for a failing studio?


I still see no evidence that they would have gone under without EA. Money talks, that's how EA took over.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 08 avril 2012 - 06:07 .


#143
Little Princess Peach

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Here we go again...I don't think ME3 was ruined I enjoy playing it regaurdless of the funkadelick ending, granted dragon age 2 sucked I sent my copy back after playing it for a day

#144
upsettingshorts

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Sarevok Synder wrote...

No evidence just your bald assertions. Again, why would EA pay so much for a failing studio?


You are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the dumbest person I have ever encountered on these boards.  Wear that truly remarkable distinction with pride.

It's a tough honor to maintain though, you'll have to keep stubbornly ignoring evidence, refuse to do research, and failing to read what anyone is actually saying in order to preserve your title.  Good luck, the BSN is a competitive environment!

#145
Solaris1989

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I'll contribute my two cents. Whether this is the beginning of the end of BioWare remains to be seen. I don't have a crystal ball in front of me to predict the future with, but I will say this. Customers will only take so many disappointments from a company before they will simply give up and take their business elsewhere.

Now I never played DA2, but I've heard from enough of my RL friends and customer reviews that I'm hesitant to go near it. However, I will not pass judgement on a game I have not played, but there are many who are angry about DA2 and ME3's ending. So if that's two games in a row for them, will they buy another? Time will tell.

#146
Paragon Fury

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Bioware has screwed the pooch 4 times in 3 years.

Any lesser company would've utterly annihilated by now, but Bioware's history has at least let it survive until now.

But if they don't do something soon, they'll be dead soon. Or at least no longer relevant.

#147
Sarevok Synder

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

You are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the dumbest person I have ever encountered on these boards.  Wear that truly remarkable distinction with pride.

It's a tough honor to maintain though, you'll have to keep stubbornly ignoring evidence, refuse to do research, and failing to read what anyone is actually saying in order to preserve your title.  Good luck, the BSN is a competitive environment!



Oh look, attempting to insult me, how cute. Are you going to provide evidence or continue to bloviate?

Why would EA pay so much for a failing company?

#148
upsettingshorts

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Paragon Fury wrote...

Bioware has screwed the pooch 4 times in 3 years.


[Citation needed]

#149
ItsRed

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IF the Indoctrination theory is what actually happened, then it is the most GENIUS piece of story writing I've ever seen. They can use the Indoctrination theory in their "Extended Cut DLC" and pull it off. Honestly I'd rather pay full DLC price for them to do the Indoctrination Ending then have a more of the ****ty Starchild ending for free.

If you polish a ****, its still a ****. Fix the ending don't give us more of it.

#150
Herr Igor

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When a community manager resorts to ridicule, then for sure there is a major problem.

https://twitter.com/...978725637992448

Image IPB