307 réponses à ce sujet

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

I think for many people it feels forced, because one of core RPG game mastering/story telling principles was broken:
- you can describe what the player sees/hears/touches. You must never describe what (s)he thinks

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 08 avril 2012 - 06:43 .

[xiaoassassin]

I think it was mainly to draw in new players.

[DubVee12]

Earth is the human homeworld (home to approx. 11 billion humans at Mass Effect time),
Shepard is a human.
Even if Shep's background is colonist/spacer I think it's logical for him to be upset knowing the human race (his own species) is close to extinction.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Nah, nothing shows that leaving Reapers on Earth for some time will lead to humanity extinction. Read this thread above.
Also "being upset" is fine, but still whole survival strategy galaxy-wide must come first (at least for some Shepards). I could accept it maybe makes a lot of sense tactically wide even from the start of ME3, just storytelling doesn't make very good job in conveying it.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 08 avril 2012 - 09:07 .

[naddaya]

sedrikhcain wrote...

While I'm not sure why the whole game had to be centred around Earth in ME3 (beyond marketing), once the Reapers got to Earth, it made perfect sense for Shepard to be concerned about them, because Shepard is an alliance soldier and humanity is the Alliance's primary concern. Just like the Asari are most concerned with the Asari, Krogan with Krogan, etc.

Shepard is also a Spectre. You should be able to choose what he/she considers a priority. What to care and be emotional about.

[sedrikhcain]

m_k wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

While I'm not sure why the whole game had to be centred around Earth in ME3 (beyond marketing), once the Reapers got to Earth, it made perfect sense for Shepard to be concerned about them, because Shepard is an alliance soldier and humanity is the Alliance's primary concern. Just like the Asari are most concerned with the Asari, Krogan with Krogan, etc.

Shepard is also a Spectre. You should be able to choose what he/she considers a priority. What to care and be emotional about.

Shepard became a spectre about 3 years ago. For 2 of those years, Shepard was dead, and for most of the other year, Shepard's spectre status had been revoked. Furthermore, much of the pride Shepard took in becoming a Spectre was that she/he was also the first human to do so. The idea that she/he would have more loyalty to that designation by the council than to his/her own roots is so absurd that I'm quite glad the writers didn't make it an option to appease people who can't stand to see anything they deem "Earth-centric".

[sedrikhcain]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Icesong wrote...

On a similar but not unrelated topic, what happened to being a Spectre? Being an Alliance soldier was pushed instead. If you had the option of caring more about being a Spectre then, were you a duty-driven Shepard like mine, this would've given you an excellent avenue through which to prioritize the galaxy over Earth.

Yeah, I never tried it, but what happens if Shepard rejects his dogtags recovered by Liara in LOtSB? "These are not mine anymore"
Well, I guess game just prunes this branch quickly like it does with many other decisions "but you were drafted back by Anderson anyway".

Your spectre status and your commission in the Alliance have both been revoked as ME3 begins. But you're on Earth, a "guest" of the Alliance.

[lillitheris]

Non-incidentally, I created a thread over on General petitioning for additional dialogue wheels and choices.

Modifié par lillitheris, 08 avril 2012 - 10:54 .

[sedrikhcain]

Let's also not forget that Shepard's lowest moment in the game, the point where she/he felt hopeless, was when she lost on Thessia -- and then blamed herself for the fall of the whole planet. That wasn't about Earth. So Shepard's concern is with stopping the Reapers and saving the galaxy, not some myopic or racist fixation on Earth and humans.

[lillitheris]

And jaysus eatin' krispies, why are you still arguing about what Shepard should and shouldn't do? There is no single Shepard, there is no single set of motivations.

That's the entire point of this! The game shouldn't force everyone's Shepards to be rah-rah-goooo-Earth even if you can come up with the most convincing argument for loving Earth in the history of the internet.

[WatchTheGrass]

Since my Sheperd was Earthborn, the focus on earth didn't really bother me, seemed kind of fitting.

I'm guessing spacers or colonists might have it a bit differently.

[78stonewobble]

It felt somewhat forced to me aswell.


However maybe the Reaper force at earth was allready a bit bigger than at the other planets. So if you would want to hurt the reapers the most it would be "logic" to hit them there. Semi supported by the fact that the Reapers move the citadel there for protection.


About the rushing into battle. I think that was the only choice since in my imagination there would precious few shipyards and new recruits left. There wouldn't be any new fleets or armies coming only wearing down the existing ones by waiting. Aside from the fact that if you waited too long there wouldn't be anybody left to save only more reapers.

[sedrikhcain]

lillitheris wrote...

And jaysus eatin' krispies, why are you still arguing about what Shepard should and shouldn't do? There is no single Shepard, there is no single set of motivations.

That's the entire point of this! The game shouldn't force everyone's Shepards to be rah-rah-goooo-Earth even if you can come up with the most convincing argument for loving Earth in the history of the internet.

First, I don't really think the game does that, and I agree that if some people think it does, that's the better discussion.

Second, there are some things that I think are so patently absurd that including them as options amounts to pandering to the wrong group of people. IMO, the idea that Shepard would, as has been stated on this thread "have no emotional attachment to Earth" falls into that category, as far as I'm concerned.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

lillitheris wrote...

And jaysus eatin' krispies, why are you still arguing about what Shepard should and shouldn't do? There is no single Shepard, there is no single set of motivations.

That's the entire point of this! The game shouldn't force everyone's Shepards to be rah-rah-goooo-Earth even if you can come up with the most convincing argument for loving Earth in the history of the internet.

... or if they want to force Shepard into defending Earth, say for the sake of trimming down the storyline variations, they should well, just force him by game universe means, even if he has opinion not to like it.
Not via indoctrination of player character by author. 

Let me illustrate with oversimplistic example.
There is a room with many doors. Game master don't want player character to open any doors but pink-painted one.
Notice the difference if he narrates:

a) "There are three guards in the room who won't allow you to open any doors but pink one"

"You are not interested in opening any other doors, because you always liked pink, so you want to open it"

Second one breaks player's immersion, because it could contradict what player is actually thinking.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 08 avril 2012 - 11:54 .

[lillitheris]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Second, there are some things that I think are so patently absurd that including them as options amounts to pandering to the wrong group of people. IMO, the idea that Shepard would, as has been stated on this thread "have no emotional attachment to Earth" falls into that category, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't really think that it's our place to say how anyone else wants to play it. I can well imagine people who just wouldn't. But that's beside the point.

My larger point here is that a more neutral additional statement would enable more RP. For example, in addition to “You must help defend Earth, humans are dying!” (Not actual quote, but they're basically equivalent), you could have “We should rally to defend Earth, the Reapers are concentrating their forces there and it's really dangerous (for whatever reason) if it falls!”. The latter statement can be used by a more strategically oriented individual, or someone who doesn't really care about Earth (too much) on an emotional level.

[Wulfram]

Shepard would have some emotional connection to Earth, yes. But this shouldn't necessarily push saving Earth to a higher priority than pursuing the best strategy to defeat the reapers, and sometimes it seems like it does.

And Shepard really shouldn't have to act like they expect all the rest of the galaxy to prioritise Earth over everywhere else.

[sedrikhcain]

lillitheris wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...

Second, there are some things that I think are so patently absurd that including them as options amounts to pandering to the wrong group of people. IMO, the idea that Shepard would, as has been stated on this thread "have no emotional attachment to Earth" falls into that category, as far as I'm concerned.

I don't really think that it's our place to say how anyone else wants to play it. I can well imagine people who just wouldn't. But that's beside the point.

My larger point here is that a more neutral additional statement would enable more RP. For example, in addition to “You must help defend Earth, humans are dying!” (Not actual quote, but they're basically equivalent), you could have “We should rally to defend Earth, the Reapers are concentrating their forces there and it's really dangerous (for whatever reason) if it falls!”. The latter statement can be used by a more strategically oriented individual, or someone who doesn't really care about Earth (too much) on an emotional level.

But where does it force people to say anything similar to -- or with similar intent as -- "You must help defend Earth, humans are dying!”? I don't remember anything like that. And I remember people on this thread complaining that you had to rally troops to Earth, not about what you said.

As for the first part of your comment, you can't include every kind of role play, because people's preferences vary endlessly, but I, for one, am glad I didn't look down at my dialogue options and see "Screw Earth!" or similar, because that's so ridiculously corny and illogical it would've messed with my immersion.

[Dark_Caduceus]

There isn;t much reason for any Shepard to care all that much about earth anyways.

Spacer=> Grows up aboard ships, no real connection to the pale blue dot.
Colonist=> Grows up in a human colony, why should he/she care about earth?
Earthborn=> Grows up in slums, enlists in the Alliance specifically to get away from earth.

[Wulfram]

Isn't the N7 program based on Earth?  Shep probably had good memories of then.

Modifié par Wulfram, 08 avril 2012 - 12:17 .

[majormajormmajor]

Earth = America

Humanity = American self-insert

Here's what I think of them both.

Spits

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

sedrikhcain wrote...
As for the first part of your comment, you can't include every kind of role play, because people's preferences vary endlessly, but I, for one, am glad I didn't look down at my dialogue options and see "Screw Earth!" or similar, because that's so ridiculously corny and illogical it would've messed with my immersion.

"I play Paragon. I insist Renegade options are removed from dialog, since when I see these evil options on the dialog wheel it greatly upsets me"

Btw please don't try to downplay other people arguments by making them sound ridiculous, its not nice. Nobody suggested options like "Screw Earth!". But more something like "Is it a really good idea to concentrate on Earth at this moment?"

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 08 avril 2012 - 12:33 .

[naddaya]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...
As for the first part of your comment, you can't include every kind of role play, because people's preferences vary endlessly, but I, for one, am glad I didn't look down at my dialogue options and see "Screw Earth!" or similar, because that's so ridiculously corny and illogical it would've messed with my immersion.

"I play Paragon. I insist Renegade options are removed from dialog, since when I see these evil options on the dialog wheel it greatly upsets me"

Btw please don't try to downplay other people arguments by making them sound ridiculous, its not nice. Nobody suggested options like "Screw Earth!". But more something like "Is it a really good idea on concentrating on Earth at this moment?"

I like this human, he understands.

I miss the neutral dialogue responses.

Modifié par m_k, 08 avril 2012 - 12:36 .

[78stonewobble]

majormajormmajor wrote...

Earth = America

Humanity = American self-insert

Here's what I think of them both.

Spits

But I still like them... (americans)

[sedrikhcain]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

sedrikhcain wrote...
As for the first part of your comment, you can't include every kind of role play, because people's preferences vary endlessly, but I, for one, am glad I didn't look down at my dialogue options and see "Screw Earth!" or similar, because that's so ridiculously corny and illogical it would've messed with my immersion.

"I play Paragon. I insist Renegade options are removed from dialog, since when I see these evil options on the dialog wheel it greatly upsets me"

Btw please don't try to downplay other people arguments by making them sound ridiculous, its not nice. Nobody suggested options like "Screw Earth!". But more something like "Is it a really good idea to concentrate on Earth at this moment?"

I'm not trying to downplay anything. It was explicity stated on this thread that we should have dialogue options that suggest Shepard "has no emotional connection to Earth". That's ridiculous all on its own. I did not make it so and didn't make it sound so.

It's rather ironic that I get accused of this in a post that suggests my intent is to eradicate half the dialogue options. I made my point rather clear, I think, and it has been deliberately distorted.

[sedrikhcain]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

There isn;t much reason for any Shepard to care all that much about earth anyways.

Spacer=> Grows up aboard ships, no real connection to the pale blue dot.
Colonist=> Grows up in a human colony, why should he/she care about earth?
Earthborn=> Grows up in slums, enlists in the Alliance specifically to get away from earth.

I could go back further but I think this pretty much makes my point.