307 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

sedrikhcain wrote...

I'm not trying to downplay anything. It was explicity stated on this thread that we should have dialogue options that suggest Shepard "has no emotional connection to Earth". That's ridiculous all on its own. I did not make it so and didn't make it sound so.

I don't know if someone else said so, but like I've been trying to explain, my idea is to add more neutral dialogue options that allow the player to play as if their Shepard isn't too concerned about Earth specifically (in this case – there are many other scenarios where neutral responses could be added too). The degree to which the Shepard cares is then up to the individual player.

The example I gave would fit this bill just fine. It's neutral enough that it fits many characters. The original options don't, they clearly force an Earth before anything-outlook.

Modifié par lillitheris, 08 avril 2012 - 01:18 .

[naddaya]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

There isn;t much reason for any Shepard to care all that much about earth anyways.

Spacer=> Grows up aboard ships, no real connection to the pale blue dot.
Colonist=> Grows up in a human colony, why should he/she care about earth?
Earthborn=> Grows up in slums, enlists in the Alliance specifically to get away from earth.

I could go back further but I think this pretty much makes my point.

So yeah, the main issue is autodialogue. I think we can all agree on this.

[sedrikhcain]

lillitheris wrote...

I don't know if someone else said so, but like I've been trying to explain, my idea is to add more neutral dialogue options that allow the player to play as if their Shepard isn't too concerned about Earth specifically (in this case – there are many other scenarios where neutral responses could be added too). The degree to which the Shepard cares is then up to the individual player.

The example I gave would fit this bill just fine. It's neutral enough that it fits many characters. The original options don't, they clearly force an Earth before anything-outlook.

OK, Lillitheris, let me try to get back to the nut here, what I'm trying to say is that I don't remember them forcing Shepard to say things that suggest she/he's all about Earth, rather than the Galaxy. I know the Alliance Navy is Earth Centric, as you would expect, and Shepard is working for the Alliance. (yes, Shepard is once again a Spectre, too, but it's rather obvious that Anderson is the one whose orders she's following, as you would expect. Shepard is much closer to Anderson and Hackett than to anyone on the council.)  As such, Shepard is following their orders. But those are actions. Your posts say that Shepard's words betray an allegiance to Earth above all else, and I don't recall feeling that way. In fact, I felt Shepard projected the opposite.

So, what words gave you this impression?

[K2LU533]

Earth was the worst hit other than the Hegenomy, liberating Earth seems logical.

[lillitheris]

sedrikhcain wrote...

But those are actions. Your posts say that Shepard's words betray an allegiance to Earth above all else, and I don't recall feeling that way. In fact, I felt Shepard projected the opposite.

So, what words gave you this impression?

I'll play the start again tonight unless somebody does so first, and collect some of those quotes.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

sedrikhcain wrote...
OK, Lillitheris, let me try to get back to the nut here, what I'm trying to say is that I don't remember them forcing Shepard to say things that suggest she/he's all about Earth, rather than the Galaxy. I know the Alliance Navy is Earth Centric, as you would expect, and Shepard is working for the Alliance. (yes, Shepard is once again a Spectre, too, but it's rather obvious that Anderson is the one whose orders she's following, as you would expect. Shepard is much closer to Anderson and Hackett than to anyone on the council.)  As such, Shepard is following their orders. But those are actions. Your posts say that Shepard's words betray an allegiance to Earth above all else, and I don't recall feeling that way. In fact, I felt Shepard projected the opposite. 

So, what words gave you this impression?

I would think that Renegade Shepard wouldn't be that respectful about whole "orders" stuff. "Orders alright, but we doing it my way".
I think it's most not what words are there, but about which are not there.

[Cainne Chapel]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

There isn;t much reason for any Shepard to care all that much about earth anyways.

Spacer=> Grows up aboard ships, no real connection to the pale blue dot.
Colonist=> Grows up in a human colony, why should he/she care about earth?
Earthborn=> Grows up in slums, enlists in the Alliance specifically to get away from earth.

Yeah i mean there is NO reason whatsoever shepard would have primary interest in saving Earth.

its not like

Spacer: grew up aboard alliance ships (alliance is based on earth, its Earths primary military force)
Colonist: Grew up in an alliance Colony that is at most 30 years old before he enrolled in the Alliance navy to protect home and world
Earthborn: Grew up ON earth and joined the alliance to get out of gangs and protect humanity...

What I dont get is why people are AGAINST shepard protecting humanity.  Its not like the earth is some insignificant colony.  Its not a Eden Prime or Horizon where talking about here with a few thousand to million people.

Its the homeworld of his entire species and contains 99+% of his races people.  A guy who was the first human spectre, fought for tends of thousands of HUMAN colonists and is indirectly the cause of Reapers going after his species... why would he just leave most of his species to die on the wayside?

What point would that serve him? ESPECIALLY being a military man? He would fight as hard as he could to help his species on sheer principle.  Why? Because no one else will Thats HIS job

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

If all of this has to be explained, storytelling is not making a good job. Also, I'am tired explaining to people who didn't read all rationale already given and misinterpret the whole point 

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 08 avril 2012 - 01:44 .

[Axialbloom]

What? Earth has 95% of the human population on it, and it is where humans originated. Of course Shephard is going nuts over it.

That said, Bioware did not give the player enough attachment to Earth.

[Patchwork]

The Take Back Earth shtick should have stayed PR BS where it belonged.

The meeting with the council is a joke; why would they, should they weaken their own defences to save Earth?
Shepard should have just asked for resources for building the Crucible and they provide the bare minimum (a team of asari/salarian scientists and raw materials). Shepard then points out with the number of humans now available to them the Reapers will have a new capital ship within a year and humanity will be done as a viable species.

Later Shepard and Udina have a proper strategy meeting where they discuss the keepers and the Citadel as a control switch referencing relevant plots of the previous games. Which Sparatus/Quentius interrupts with a request for Shepard to retrieve the Primarch dangling the possibility of military support for the Alliance.

Sol should have had focus because it's the Reapers' staging area not because of Earth.

[Axialbloom]

Your use of the Quarians as an example is hilarious. They spend all their time trying to get their homeworld back...

[lillitheris]

Axialbloom wrote...

What? Earth has 95% of the human population on it, and it is where humans originated. Of course Shephard is going nuts over it.

Your Shepard = true.
Other Shepards = false or true

I'm not sure if I'm explaining this poorly or what, but this isn't about how you (collectively) think Shepard would really feel about it. You think that Shepard should care. Perfectly fine. One of my Shepards does. The others, however, are more concerned about the general strategic situation than Earth.


Edit: An example: think about your own country. Are all the citizens equally nationalistic? Are there any people who would rather just move to a different country? Others who wear underpants made out of the flag? It's like that.

Maybe it seems really alien that someone wouldn't care at all, but it's possible. Or maybe you do care, but you won't prioritize it over everything else (no point winning the battle if you lose the war).

Modifié par lillitheris, 08 avril 2012 - 02:07 .

[Pottumuusi]

I felt it like a punch to the balls.

My Shepard isn't a raging biased bigot, he cares about all sentient life equally.

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 08 avril 2012 - 02:00 .

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Axialbloom wrote...

Your use of the Quarians as an example is hilarious. They spend all their time trying to get their homeworld back...

Yep, but they did survive, right?
Nobody prevents from taking Earth back after Reapers are defeated.

[tonnactus]

I agree. A colonist would rather care about his planet then earth.

And its dumb that the reapers wouldnt conquer the citadel first instead of attacking planets. With the citadel,they could control all mass relays and would have won the war with less losses.

Modifié par tonnactus, 08 avril 2012 - 02:23 .

[Dominator24]

bigbade wrote...

because taking back earth was the whole gimmick of the game. Realistically, if a majority of the reapers were on earth like they claim, the council would have agreed to blowing up the Sol relay a la Arrival like 'thanks humans, sacrifice noted'.

Yeah, as sad as this my seam I had no conection with earth in ME universe. If I had any option I would blow sol system skyhigh

[sammcl]

mmhmm, this didn't make much sense once the reapers started attacking elsewhere. The writers obviously noticed this and moved the citadel there to necessitate that Earth be the location for the final battle. The theme was really just gather an army to defeat the reapers, the dialogue was very much about taking Earth back but either way there was going to be one large scale battle rather than fighting system by system.

[Icesong]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Icesong wrote...

It would be like saying Irish-Americans wouldn't give a damn that Ireland's being decimated since they haven't been there recently. Or African-Americans etc.

For the record, as an "African-American" I wouldn't care about Africa. And I want my Shepard to not get emotional about Earth for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that she should've been mentally prepared for this eventuality. I picked "Ruthless" for a reason.

ETA: Perhaps less of a pull to Africa but if you were someone whose parents were from the US, I'd expect you to feel some emotional pull towards it if it were being devastated, even if you never lived there.


I'm an African American, too, and I think it's a lot easier to role play this kind of total selfessness, or say it's true, than to actually do it. Most of us humans work hard at being inclusive, fair, colorblind, etc, but let's face it, for the majority of us, there is a stronger emotional attachment to whatever we perceive as the "us" in any "us vs them" conflict. I'm not saying that's right and I'm not saying you're lying -- perhaps you're just that special. I think people are unfairly slamming BioWare for making Shepard realistically human here.

Well, I'm white and black so maybe that's where my indifference to "us vs them" stems. But I wasn't really hoping there'd be dialogue where Shepard could be selfless. Better would have been the option to keep calm and focused. A selfless approach would be rather narrow, while calm can be interpreted a much greater number of ways. To start arguing about what's realistic would be to never stop, and I think misses the point that Shepard is a soldier--a super soldier--and so conditioned against normal human responses. I just wanted mine to be more conditioned than others.

I saw someone say that this isn't about our vision for our character, because Shepard isn't ours. I guess this person missed the entire point of RPGs. Being able to define the motivations and beliefs is the central element to these games. Our characters will often be forced to do certain actions as a plot necessity, but the reasons for doing them are entirely our own.

I didn't see that comment that way. Anderson hadn't even made clear yet
why he was sending Shepard away. Shepard's a soldier and a fight with
what she/he knows to be the greatest enemy of all, the Shepard knew
he/she would face one day, is now right in front of his face. I don't
think that comment was even about Earth, I think it was about "what, you
mean you don't want me to fight the Reapers standing right here in
front of my face?" I think that convo could've taken place on Thessia
and it would've gone exactly the same way.

My problem with this interpretation is that Shepard did indeed know that this day would come. And knew of the capabilities of the Reapers. So to think "what, you mean you don't want me to fight the Reapers standing right here in front of my face?" for my Shepard would be completely absurd as she should know there's nothing that can be accomplished by staying. There's no other reason to go to the Citadel, is she stupid or something? You certainly have to conclude that she's not too quick on the uptake and doesn't plan ahead. These are the problems, big and small, that auto-dialogue causes for your character.

Modifié par Icesong, 08 avril 2012 - 02:43 .

[Cainne Chapel]

is shepard a bit heavy handed in earths defense? Sure at points.

But it doesn't mean he wouldnt care about earth at all. We ARE railroaded in a way, but its the same way we're railroaded to caring and fighting for human colonists in ME2 or being mad at Saren for attacking Eden Prime in ME1.

Sure shepard surrounds himself with other aliens and even cares about their problems and helps them out, but its also in his and earths best interest to do so.

As for those calling out for sacrificing the sol system. I know some shepards are result oriented people... but why would he sacrifice the bulk of his species? THe one he's been trying to protect for the better part of 3 games?

That just makes no sense.

[sedrikhcain]

Icesong wrote...

My problem with this interpretation is that Shepard did indeed know that this day would come. And knew of the capabilities of the Reapers. So to think "what, you mean you don't want me to fight the Reapers standing right here in front of my face?" for my Shepard would be completely absurd as she should know there's nothing that can be accomplished by staying. There's no other reason to go to the Citadel, is she stupid or something? You certainly have to conclude that she's not too quick on the uptake and doesn't plan ahead. These are the problems, big and small, that auto-dialogue causes for your character.

It's an emotional response, in the moment. Shep clearly sees that leaving is the right thing to do but, right at first, doesn't want to do it. It seems natural to me, because of what Shepard's been through. As you said, Shepard is a soldier, through and through. And anything that feels like running from a fight, even if it's just at first, is going to feel unnatural.

[sedrikhcain]

tonnactus wrote...

I agree. A colonist would rather care about his planet then earth.

And its dumb that the reapers wouldnt conquer the citadel first instead of attacking planets. With the citadel,they could control all mass relays and would have won the war with less losses.

Shepard never really has to choose between a colony world and Earth. That actually would've been a nice storyline for a colonist Shepard but it doesn't take place.

[sedrikhcain]

Just played through the opening sequence again. Actually, what I think happens during the "the fight's here" convo is that Shepard balks at being sent to the Citadel. The reaction and the line come after Anderson says "I need you to go to the Citadel". Anderson hasn't yet said anything else. I think Shepard, in the heat of the moment and acting with a good deal of emotion, think she/he is really being sent away from the fight, and balks at that idea.

[Garlador]

I don't care for earth. Why should I? I was a Spacer. I never visited Earth.

It's like saying I should care about politics and in-fighting in Turkey just because I have Turkish blood in my veins.

I have no emotional connection to Turkey. I was born in Japan, raised in America. I don't really care about Turkey because it's a place I've only visited. It's like being told you have a distant, distant cousin who got arrested; sorry to hear that, but, so what?

My Shepard has spent more time on Noveria and Illium than he has on Earth. There are hundreds of planets out there that humans are colonizing. Earth is basically just a country at this point in the grand scheme of things, and it's not even Shepard's country. If the war was about Earth, he'd be fighting someone else's war; it's only due to the fact that Reapers hate everyone equally that he'll care about Earth.

Long rant short, I hate earth. I'd prefer to settle on Rannoch, even if the dextro-food would suck.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

As for those calling out for sacrificing the sol system. I know some shepards are result oriented people... but why would he sacrifice the bulk of his species?

Umm, I dunno, for the greater good? Like he sacrificed Batarians? Or does he just think about like football - "its my home team, so I give it preferencial treatment"? I bet some Shepards not like that at all.
Saying that I never seen need to "sacrifice" sol system, blowing up charon relay will be pointless.

More like not agreeing that take Earth back=priority from the start. Even if its lost initially, could re-take it back later when Reapers are defeated.

I think at least in ME3 you can see Council's distrust in Shep quite justified, by his apparent bias.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 08 avril 2012 - 05:36 .

[DubVee12]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

As for those calling out for sacrificing the sol system. I know some shepards are result oriented people... but why would he sacrifice the bulk of his species?

Umm, I dunno, for the greater good? Like he sacrificed Batarians? Or does he just think about like football - "its my home team, so I give it preferencial treatment"? I bet some Shepards not like that at all.
Saying that I never seen need to "sacrifice" sol system, blowing up charon relay will be pointless.

More like not agreeing that take Earth back=priority from the start. Even if its lost initially, could re-take it back later when Reapers are defeated.

I think at least in ME3 you can see Council's distrust in Shep quite justified, by his apparent bias.

I'm sorry but the council isn't biased against Shepard. They are trying to protect THEIR HOMEWORLDS (kinda like Shepard huh), and that's why they can't help. I thought it was pretty clear throughout the game that Earth is on its own, until Shepard can fix the problems on the other species homeworlds. And if Shepard isn't going to protect humanity, then who will? Udina was a traitor, Anderson if on Earth, and Hackett is busy with the damn crucible. I'm sorry some of you didn't get the chance to sacrifice your own species, I really am, but without Shepard "There won't be an Earth (and therefore a human race) left to save."