307 réponses à ce sujet

[naddaya]

leonia42 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...


Also I don't quite understand why Shepard with Colonist/ Spacer background has such strong, almost irrational, emotional attachment to Earth.

I didn'tlike the strong emotional attachment autoshep reflected. One of the problems of so much autodialogue unfortunately.

And people complained that Shepard wasn't emotional enough in ME2. When is the balance ever going to be perfect for everybody?

Again, the problem is that we didn't have a choice.

[lillitheris]

m_k wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...


Also I don't quite understand why Shepard with Colonist/ Spacer background has such strong, almost irrational, emotional attachment to Earth.

All Shepard served on Earth for a time. In fact, ME1 starts with Shep leaving Earth. Why wouldn't s/he care that humanity home planet is getting destroyed? Now that would be illogical.

It's not illogical when THE WHOLE GALAXY is at stake.

Erixxxx wrote...

The
ultimate goal for all races in the galaxy is to stop the Reapers
completely, and yet they still care about their own homeworlds the most.
It's only natural. Survival instinct kicks in when pushed into a
corner.

I understand the overall reactions (of the other races, the military, politicians etc) but not Shepard's. Because he/she knows better. And Spectres fight for the stability and preservation of every species.

Well, no, this isn't really correct either. A Shepard should have the choice to act either out of a desire to save Earth, specifically, or that events somehow conspire to make the final battle about Earth, even if Shepard doesn't really care for it so much.

[Icesong]

On a similar but not unrelated topic, what happened to being a Spectre? Being an Alliance soldier was pushed instead. If you had the option of caring more about being a Spectre then, were you a duty-driven Shepard like mine, this would've given you an excellent avenue through which to prioritize the galaxy over Earth.

[naddaya]

lillitheris wrote...

m_k wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...


Also I don't quite understand why Shepard with Colonist/ Spacer background has such strong, almost irrational, emotional attachment to Earth.

All Shepard served on Earth for a time. In fact, ME1 starts with Shep leaving Earth. Why wouldn't s/he care that humanity home planet is getting destroyed? Now that would be illogical.

It's not illogical when THE WHOLE GALAXY is at stake.

Erixxxx wrote...

The
ultimate goal for all races in the galaxy is to stop the Reapers
completely, and yet they still care about their own homeworlds the most.
It's only natural. Survival instinct kicks in when pushed into a
corner.

I understand the overall reactions (of the other races, the military, politicians etc) but not Shepard's. Because he/she knows better. And Spectres fight for the stability and preservation of every species.

Well, no, this isn't really correct either. A Shepard should have the choice to act either out of a desire to save Earth, specifically, or that events somehow conspire to make the final battle about Earth, even if Shepard doesn't really care for it so much.

Yes. Maybe I didn't explain myself well, some people might care about Earth, it's prefectly legitimate. But the autodialogue didn't allow us to choose.

Icesong wrote...

On a similar but not unrelated topic,
what happened to being a Spectre? Being an Alliance soldier was pushed
instead. If you had the option of caring more about being a Spectre
then, were you a duty-driven Shepard like mine, this would've given you
an excellent avenue through which to prioritize the galaxy over Earth.

This.

Modifié par m_k, 07 avril 2012 - 12:38 .

[Icesong]

leonia42 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...


Also I don't quite understand why Shepard with Colonist/ Spacer background has such strong, almost irrational, emotional attachment to Earth.

I didn'tlike the strong emotional attachment autoshep reflected. One of the problems of so much autodialogue unfortunately.

And people complained that Shepard wasn't emotional enough in ME2. When is the balance ever going to be perfect for everybody?

There shouldn't be a balance because there shouldn't be auto dialogue.

[tvman099]

m_k wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

m_k wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

The
ultimate goal for all races in the galaxy is to stop the Reapers
completely, and yet they still care about their own homeworlds the most.
It's only natural. Survival instinct kicks in when pushed into a
corner.

I understand the overall reactions (of the other races, the military, politicians etc) but not Shepard's. Because he/she knows better. And Spectres fight for the stability and preservation of every species.

And he does so too. However, being biased when seeing your own homeworld getting invaded by huge sentient machines that want to harvest your people is only natural to me.

The problem is that we weren't given a choice. My Shepard never showed
any particular interest in Earth in the past two games. It made no
sense to start now.

Evidently you seem to have forgotten that the entirety of ME2 was about stopping the Collectors to save humanity. Earth is humanity. Shepard joined up with a well-established evil in Cerberus to do this, regardless of what the Council or the Alliance thought. Obviously, he gives a damn what happens to the human race, and by extension, Earth.

Modifié par tvman099, 07 avril 2012 - 12:40 .

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Icesong wrote...

On a similar but not unrelated topic, what happened to being a Spectre? Being an Alliance soldier was pushed instead. If you had the option of caring more about being a Spectre then, were you a duty-driven Shepard like mine, this would've given you an excellent avenue through which to prioritize the galaxy over Earth.

Yeah, I never tried it, but what happens if Shepard rejects his dogtags recovered by Liara in LOtSB? "These are not mine anymore"
Well, I guess game just prunes this branch quickly like it does with many other decisions "but you were drafted back by Anderson anyway".

[Merwanor]

This was actually one of the things that bothered me even before the game came out, why Earth? why is Earth so important, would not the Citadel be the most important place in this galaxy?

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

tvman099 wrote...
Evidently you seem to have forgotten that the entirety of ME2 was about stopping the Collectors to save humanity. Earth is humanity.

Sorry, find it hard to stomach that capital of the country = nation. 

[Vergil_dgk]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

I can't help but thinking that Shepard's strong feelings about Earth invasion and "liberating it is a key" led him/her into sub-par/rushed resolution of the situation.
Almost during the course of the whole game you can feel the pressure being put up "we must liberate Earth, we must" - but, thinking logically, not emotionally, why? It's just another theater of war, even when pretty important one. Game lore makes plenty of points that it takes Reapers many many decades to actually "win", they are simply have not enough numbers, even if enough power.
You can't also help thinking that rushing all your resource into key battle at Earth ASAP could've prevented finding the proper solution (like finding more about Crucible or whatever Catalyst is or supposed to do).

Also I don't quite understand why Shepard with Colonist/ Spacer background has such strong, almost irrational, emotional attachment to Earth. It appears to me, it's just result of Bioware writers unable to shake mindset of Earth-born 

It did seem a bit odd at times, but I suppose the title "battle for Plaven" sounds less catchy to the general public.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

It did seem a bit odd at times, but I suppose the title "battle for Plaven" sounds less catchy to the general public.

What about "battle for the Galaxy" or "for the sake of all sentient life"? Even awesome HellGate's "We remember the dead, but we fight for the living"

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 07 avril 2012 - 12:49 .

[tvman099]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

tvman099 wrote...
Evidently you seem to have forgotten that the entirety of ME2 was about stopping the Collectors to save humanity. Earth is humanity.

Sorry, find it hard to stomach that capital of the country = nation. 

And when the capital of the country is where nearly every single human in the galaxy lives?

[naddaya]

tvman099 wrote...

Evidently you seem to have forgotten that the entirety of ME2 was about stopping the Collectors to save humanity. Earth is humanity. Shepard joined up with a well-established evil in Cerberus to do this, regardless of what the Council or the Alliance thought. Obviously, he gives a damn what happens to the human race, and by extension, Earth.

Shepard's ship was brought down by the Collectors, they were the strongest link to the Reapers we had at that point. I honestly didn't like how Cerberus was showed down my throat, but there could have been several different reasons why Shepard chose to work with Cerberus.

[naddaya]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

It did seem a bit odd at times, but I suppose the title "battle for Plaven" sounds less catchy to the general public.

What about "battle for the Galaxy" or "for the sake of all sentient life"? 

"Take back the Galaxy" sounds just as catchy imho.

[wright1978]

Icesong wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...


Also I don't quite understand why Shepard with Colonist/ Spacer background has such strong, almost irrational, emotional attachment to Earth.

I didn'tlike the strong emotional attachment autoshep reflected. One of the problems of so much autodialogue unfortunately.

And people complained that Shepard wasn't emotional enough in ME2. When is the balance ever going to be perfect for everybody?

There shouldn't be a balance because there shouldn't be auto dialogue.

Yeah, auto dialogues has absolutely no place in these sort of areas.

[Baronesa]

I have said this many times before.

The Earth-centric plot as stupid.

Shepard's motivation on the first 2 games was to save the GALAXY, not just one planet, not just one species. An example of this, go and replay the moment Shepard becomes a Spectre.

Considering the ending of ME2, it doe smakes sense that the Reapers would go to Earth with greater forces, but for that same reason, other systems didn't had too much Reaper forces, I would have preferred to slowly work liberating other places and SACRIFICING EARTH.

In the end, losing a couple of home-worlds but saving the Galaxy would have been a lot more satisfying than an ancient "off button" for the Reapers.

The whole Earth-Centric plot runs contrary to what you did on the previous 2 games... You tried to put humanity among the important races of the galaxy, by diplomacy or by being an ass. And then suddenly on the third game... you don't care for the rest of the galaxy... you just want to save one single planet.

[ThatDancingTurian]

I disliked the way my Colonist Shepard kept referring to Earth as her home. I wanted to hit whoever decided my "Paragon" option with Al-Jilani was to encourage her to give the Council crap about not dropping their own planets' needs for ours.

[Leonia]

lillitheris wrote...

Well, no, this isn't really correct either. A Shepard should have the choice to act either out of a desire to save Earth, specifically, or that events somehow conspire to make the final battle about Earth, even if Shepard doesn't really care for it so much.

While RPing my Shepard, I felt that she didn't care that much about Earth but she recognised the need to rally her war assets together and use the Crucible. It really did not feel like she was emotionally invested in the human homeworld, yeah she mentions it here or there when she feels the regret of leaving Earth behind but she also sympathises with her squad-mates for leaving their worlds behind. She wasn't wild about making Victus leave Menae but she did what she had to do because desperate times call for desperate measures.

That's the beauty of RP, even if there is more auto-dialogue you can always rationalise things the way you want to and no where did I feel like I was railroaded into caring about Earth over other worlds. My Shepard was still a Spectre, she cared about other worlds too but the events of the war eventually forced her to focus on Earth. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, sometimes you don't get a choice. You fight the battles you think you can win.

I know people get worked up about a lack of choice and see this as yet another example of where they had no control but there were only so many new variables that could be introduced with ME3 . The plot, whether you like it or not, sort of makes sense until the end. It's not how I would have preferred to fight the Reapers by any means but it worked. 

Would I have liked to fight for the other homeworlds? Heck yeah and it could have added to our war assets but that wasn't what the game was about, the game was focused on Earth at the start and we knew that long before release. At the end of the day, Shepard is human and the Reapers have rallied at the human homeworld. It just makes sense that that's where everything goes down in the end. When you've got a magic weapon like the Crucible, all other tactics go out the window.

All that said, I really don't see how Shepard is emotionally attached to Earth throughout. She doesn't talk at length about it unless someone asks her  if she's ok or worried and then there's an option to say "I'm fine" and move on. She makes comments here and there about the other homeworlds and agrees that none of them deserve to suffer as Earth is. What are some specific examples of Shepard being Earth-centric other than her desire to see Anderson again or her worry about leaving people behind (such as the dreams)?

Everything is about the Crucible until the moment we learn more about the Catalyst.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 avril 2012 - 12:52 .

[Lyrandori]

Well...

º Conduit is in London, London is on Earth, and Anderson was born there, too.
º Earth is humanity's cradle, even if you're a colonist (born on a colony) you'd still understand what is at stake for the species itself.

Now, with that said, understanding what is at stake should indeed be different than having too much emotions about it. My own canon Shepard with whom I completed the game is Colonist. Her home world is Mindoir, not Earth, but I like to think that her parents were born on Earth and moved to Mindoir, where her mother gave birth to Shepard a few years later, that's how I see it anyway.

But since the game was rushed and corners were cut to death I guess that we couldn't possibly hope to see very distinguished reactions from various Shepards (via Pre-Service History profile variables) about Earth. I guess that BioWare could have allowed a Colonist Shepard for example to at the very least receive some news about Mindoir, and if not, then maybe being able to go on Mindoir and see what's going on there, perhaps having a mission for it. But alas... game rushed, no time, less content, less details, more streamlined, so same emotions about Earth from all Shepards.

Modifié par Lyrandori, 07 avril 2012 - 12:52 .

[LadyWench]

Ziggeh wrote...

Heh, to quote Carl Sagan:

"Our remote descendants, safely arrayed on many worlds throughout the Solar System and beyond, will be unified by their common heritage, by their regard for their home planet, and by the knowledge that, whatever other life may be, the only humans in all the Universe come from Earth. They will gaze up and strain to find the blue dot in their skies. They will love it no less for its obscurity and fragility. They will marvel at how vulnerable the repository of all our potential once was, how perilous our infancy, how humble our beginnings, how many rivers we had to cross before we found our way."

Nice quote!

I did think it was funny though, how Spacer Shep kept calling it home. Like, from the established origin lore, she's been to earth about as many times as I've been to Disneyland (hint, not many!). But hey, at least she got to see London.

Yeah, I guess the battle for earth was plot-dictated important and not, um, war important ('cause we players are human and we live on earth so it must be significant to us, like trying to force us to feel a connection with that duct kid--YAY), it sure seemed like Palaven and Thessia were hit just as hard, if not worse than earth.

[hoodie_gypsy]

Throughout the game I almost felt like apologizing for Shepard's focus on earth, especially when asking other races to give up their resources. I suppose the underlying idea was that the player would have an emotional attachment to earth, therefore making it seem unthinkable and horrifying when we see scenes of reaper destruction around recognizable skylines (Big Ben). I understand why it was done, but I wish Shepard wasn't so borderline insensitive about it when speaking to other races.

Personally, if there needed to be an emotional link based on loss and desperation between the player and Shepard, I think another Normandy attack would have been far more invasive. I loved the page in the art book of a Cerberus agent crashing through the Normandy sky window. Seeing earth-attack scenes reached past the suspension of disbelief - I knew "that's not really happening, this is fictitious" and didn't have the emotional attachment. No matter who your Shepard is, the Normandy is "home." Having that ship/crew threatened again would have made me rage like Ripley in a giant mech suit.

Anyway, that's my theory about why earth was so important - I'm assuming it has less to do with plot and more about us.

[braisbr1]

even though I have many complaints about the ending, I don't share your concern about this matter. It seemed logical, and there's many reasons to believe what he is doing is the correct thing to do: unite the galaxy before there's nothing left to unite.

Earth has 11 billion people, Palaven some billions too, Thessia as well... I could go on. Yes, it may take decades for the reapers to completely annihilate the galactic society, but it won't take more than a year to eliminate the main centers of population. So, if they don't act soon, there won't be enough manpower to support a war one to one, it would be reduced to militia tactics. Plus being disorganized, etc etc.

So, from this point of view, attacking now and where the reapers are more strong at seems the right thing to do.

[Pulletlamer]

Because Shepard knew from the beginning that the catalyst was the citadel, and that the Reapers were going to teleport the Citadel to Earth, then the obvious choice would be to setup and acces point from London to the Citadel Control room so that Shepard could open the Citadel's arms and use the Crucible (something that Shepard also knew he would find on Mars, he's very smart).

True story.

Modifié par Pulletlamer, 07 avril 2012 - 01:01 .

[Wulfram]

My justification is that

Initially they don't know how the Catalyst works, and over what sort of range. It makes sense to plan to deploy it initially against the greatest concentration of reapers, to get the most advantage while you've got the advantage of surprise and the Reapers haven't had the opportunity to counter.

At the end, they're just going where the Citadel is.

But some of Shepard's dialogue at the start does have a tendency to lack that strategic justification, which is a problem - even if the emotional argument is the one most compelling to Shepard, it's not one which you can convince non-humans of.

[Leonia]

In hindsight, I can see why it feels awkward for non-Earthborns and that does seem to be an oversight from the writer's.