307 réponses à ce sujet

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Earth has 11 billion people, Palaven some billions too, Thessia as well... I could go on. Yes, it may take decades for the reapers to completely annihilate the galactic society, but it won't take more than a year to eliminate the main centers of population. So, if they don't act soon, there won't be enough manpower to support a war one to one, it would be reduced to militia tactics. Plus being disorganized, etc etc.

So, from this point of view, attacking now and where the reapers are more strong at seems the right thing to do.

Not logical. It's known from the start that conventional winning is not possible. Also there is no prescience and no way to know from the start that Citadel will be revealed as the Catalyst and will be teleported to Earth.
Dedicating assets to attrition tactics from the start would allow more time for Crucible to be properly researched(for example, figure out that it will wipe all synthetics if not properly used)
Centres of population could be evacuated to big extent, again if you dedicate your assets to it instead.
But Shepard pushes every race to fight for Earth. Even before this fight gains purpose of getting access to Citadel there.
BTW if he hopes that Crucible will defeat "biggest concentration of Reapers" on Earth (where this was established, anyway?), why does he need massive fleets? Looks like he still wants to throw all available war resource into last desperate fight for Earth if Crucible doesn't work as expected in this case.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 07 avril 2012 - 01:08 .

[lillitheris]

tvman099 wrote...

Evidently you seem to have forgotten that the entirety of ME2 was about stopping the Collectors to save humanity. Earth is humanity. Shepard joined up with a well-established evil in Cerberus to do this, regardless of what the Council or the Alliance thought. Obviously, he gives a damn what happens to the human race, and by extension, Earth.

A) ONLY humans were being attacked at that time; and
It became about the Reapers pretty early on.

I don't think there's any contradiction (although I'd have been far more critical of Cerberus throughout). But yes, like I mentioned, there were a couple unnecessary Earthisms in ME2, too, if you chose to let the council die in ME.

[Wulfram]

One thing that would have made the focus on Earth as the eventual objective more palatable would have been if the Alliance had been doing more to help defend the other homeworlds in the meantime.

[Transgirlgamer]

The whole take back earth storyline isn't for the characters. It's for the players. I would guess that it's to make it seem more urgent to us since it's our planet that we're meant to take back.

My Shepard is a Spacer, she wouldn't give more of a damn about earth than any other planet except maybe in a nostalgic, birthplace of my species, way. She'd probably go with Thessia as more important after they find out there's a prothean archive there since having access to the archive could give them access to more advanced technology through studying it. So my Shepard would say take back Thessia and hold it whilst conducting strikes against the rest of the reaper forces around the galaxy and researching the data in the archive.

[shodiswe]

Erixxxx wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

The ultimate goal for all races in the galaxy is to stop the Reapers completely, and yet they still care about their own homeworlds the most. It's only natural. Survival instinct kicks in when pushed into a corner.

Was the majority of human population concentrated on Earth? I don't remember lore affirming this position.
In fact, the whole point of space colonization is disperse your species enough so you shrug away if something happens to your homeworld.

Terra Nova has a little over 4 million people, and that is the most successful human colony to date. Assuming that Eden Prime, the second-most successful colony, has 1-2 million people, that is still a very small amount compared to the 11.4 billion people living on Earth. Humanity has only had access to the relay for 30 years, it's limited how much they have been able to spread out in that time.

That's a very good reason, Terra nova has already been attacked and the other colonies are underattack aswell.
If earth falls then humanity is pretty much gone. The other races got several collony worlds with populations numbering in the billions, except for the quarrians ofcourse... that got a few millions living on ships.. still thats a bigger population that humanity has on it's colonies.

If Earth goes down then humanity is pretty much extinct.

But realy I don't see the point of this debate.
If the reapers are to be defeated they need to act together, they need a very strong force or the reapers will just wipe them all fleet for fleet without taking any serious losses. I tihnk it was said that you needed 4 citadel specis dreadnaughts focusing on one reaper dread naught the bring the shields down and eventualy destroy it. There for to have any chance of sucess you need a massive fleet that works together or they will all get shot down before they en get a chance at scratching the reapers. Then again the reapers had fleets all over it would take the whole galaxys combined fleets to evenpossibly liberate one world and nothing stops the reapers from sending reinforcements from hundreds of other words that are getting wiped out at the same time.

The only problem I have with ME3 is the ending where Shepard seems to be ok with taking advice and having a friendly chat with the worst mass murderer in the known galaxy that have been wiping out thousants of civilizations for millions of years... killing thousands of trillions of people.. Shepard had problems shaking hands with Archer who performed nasty experiments on his handicaped brother... But a mass murderer is ok. Despite the fact that the reapers had been manipulating fooling tricked and run countless cycles with manipulated traitors that seem to think they are saving their people while they are actualy causing internal conflict that makes it easier for the reapers to destroy them...  Thats the kind of creature that shepard seems to trust in the end scene, no questions what so ever. No distrust..  The catalyst hinted that shepard was partialy syntetic and that it woudl likely kill him.. so maybe it wont kill the geth if shepard goes for the destroy option... It was just another desception by the reapers to trick Sheard into doing their bidding. I liked the whole game, except that little bit with the catalyst at the end that realy didn't make sense. and I wish the war assets you collected would have shown more in the end battle.. aswell as having some kind of co-op on the way to the beam where they are helping you and you are helping them in return. Like Virmire.

Also it's hardly earth centric since every race is looking out for themselves, and earth does need help. First you have to help everyone else hoping there is something left for earth and the last remnant of humanity.

[Leonia]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Earth has 11 billion
people, Palaven some billions too, Thessia as well... I could go on.
Yes, it may take decades for the reapers to completely annihilate the
galactic society, but it won't take more than a year to eliminate the
main centers of population. So, if they don't act soon, there won't be
enough manpower to support a war one to one, it would be reduced to
militia tactics. Plus being disorganized, etc etc.

So, from this point of view, attacking now and where the reapers are more strong at seems the right thing to do.

Not logical. It's known from the start that conventional winning is not
possible. Also there is no prescience and no way to know from the start
that Citadel will be revealed as the Catalyst and will be teleported to
Earth.
Dedicating assets to attrition tactics from the start would
allow more time for Crucible to be properly researched(for example,
figure out that it will wipe all synthetics if not properly used)
Centres of population could be evacuated to big extent, again if you dedicate your assets to it instead.
But Shepard pushes every race to fight for Earth. Even before this fight gains purpose of getting access to Citadel there.
BTW if he hopes that Crucible will defeat "biggest concentration of
Reapers" on Earth (where this was established, anyway?), why does he
need massive fleets? Looks like he still wants to throw all available
war resource into last desperate fight for Earth if Crucible doesn't
work as expected in this case.

But the fighting isn't all done on Earth until the end and Hackett pushes the construction of the Crucible (which is the main focus of the plot up until the endgame starts). During the game while you're out doing missions, war assets are gaining victories all over the galaxy, remember the Galaxy at War map? Only the final push is at Earth and that makes the most sense because the Crucible didn't have time to be tested. Nobody could have predicted that the Citadel would be moved, that's when an already desperate situation becomes even more so. There aren't any other options at that point, you either hope your super weapon works on the concentrated Reaper forces or pray another miracle will happen because that's all there is. Nobody wants to fight a war of attrition and lose the way the Protheans did. All cards in at the final moment, it's everything or nothing. Not the most sound way to fight a war but that's all we had to work with. Everything we know tells us the Reapers cannot be beaten any other way.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 avril 2012 - 01:10 .

[lillitheris]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Not logical. It's known from the start that conventional winning is not possible. Also there is no prescience and no way to know from the start that Citadel will be revealed as the Catalyst and will be teleported to Earth.

Nah, this is BS. In a real situation like that, you'd sacrifice the entire solar system. Get to Charon, sneak away, put some engines on Pluto, point it toward the relay, and watch the fireworks.

Modifié par lillitheris, 07 avril 2012 - 01:08 .

[Oldbones2]

Agree with you OP.

The whole liberate Earth and then the war will be won thing didn't make much sense.

It's pretty clear the Reapers (by which I mean BW's writing staff) ONLY moved the Citadel to Earth in order to bring the two plotlines to the same location.


And frankly my earthborn Shep would have hated Earth. He ran with gangs and lived on the streets, it was the worst part of his life.

[Wulfram]

In fairness, Thessia's population is pretty small at 5.5 Billion. Less than current day Earth's let alone 2185 Earth's.

Though Earth's population must be getting pretty small by the end of the game

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

lillitheris wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Not logical. It's known from the start that conventional winning is not possible. Also there is no prescience and no way to know from the start that Citadel will be revealed as the Catalyst and will be teleported to Earth.

Nah, this is BS. In a real situation like that, you'd sacrifice the entire solar system. Get to Charon, sneak away, put some engines on Pluto, point it toward the relay, and watch the fireworks.

Pointless since Reapers didn't arrive to Earth as via chokepoint. A lot of border worlds were swallowed at this point already - they advanced as quite wide front, so destroying one relay wouldn't help much.

[Daennikus]

Good topic! I felt the same way as the OP but at the same time I wanted to save Shepard's planet because it's not like he had a choice. It was his mission, after all.

In a similar hypothetical situation I would behave the same way. At work, I hold management-level responsibilities as well as doing field work... and I find myself having to explain to my colleagues, field agents, that having those responsibilities is more about helping the company than my own choice of career. I don't love what I do because it's affecting everyone in the company, in good AND in bad, but if I didn't do it no one else would and I'd be out of a job. Almost everyone would have to stand in the unemployment line.

So when Shepard was insisting that Earth was key to vanquish the Reapers I felt that same drive to fulfill my duty and push aside my reluctance to hurt the feelings of all those non-humans.

[Samtheman63]

Earth is where all humans are from, so even with any of the different backgrounds Shep shold still care alot for it
The game seems like all speicies in the galactic community would have strong feelings for their home world

[Transgirlgamer]

m_k wrote...

tvman099 wrote...

Evidently you seem to have forgotten that the entirety of ME2 was about stopping the Collectors to save humanity. Earth is humanity. Shepard joined up with a well-established evil in Cerberus to do this, regardless of what the Council or the Alliance thought. Obviously, he gives a damn what happens to the human race, and by extension, Earth.

Shepard's ship was brought down by the Collectors, they were the strongest link to the Reapers we had at that point. I honestly didn't like how Cerberus was showed down my throat, but there could have been several different reasons why Shepard chose to work with Cerberus.

My Shepad worked with Cerberus because they brought har back to life and gave her the new Normandy.  I was never less than honest with them that I wasn't joining them and didn't believe in their goals.  I was, first and foremost, a spectre followed by, a long way after, an alliance commander.  The collectors were my lead towards the reapers.  That fighting them helped human colonies was just an advantage.  I'd have done the same regardless of who's colonies they were.

[Skull Bearer]

Yeah, this did seem really out of place. My Shep was a Colonist xenophile with no attachment, emotional or otherwise, to earth. He'd be a lot more upset about Palaven, what with Garrus and all.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I didn't understand the whole attraction to Earth anyway. To me ME was not about Earth. I already live there. It is more fun that the game lets me escape from it. It was about exploring the galaxy, meeting new friends there, adventures, etc. That was drawing me in. Not Vancouver or a destroyed London.

Shepard: Don't worry, when all off this is over, I will buy us drinks back in Vancouver, I promise.
Traynor: Vancouver? Not Paris or Venice. Vancouver.
Shepard: It's a great city!
Traynor: You never take me anywhere nice.

[Prosarian]

I don't really see why a spacer Shepard or colonist Shepard wouldn't feel any attachment to Earth, it's only been about 30 years since Humanity discovered the mass relays and colonization is pretty new to our species. It would be like saying Irish-Americans wouldn't give a damn that Ireland's being decimated since they haven't been there recently. Or African-Americans etc.

Saying that Shepard wouldn't care about Earth seems a bit ridiculous, sure he'd care about other species planets, but you'd always look out for your own first and foremost, it's human nature and it can't be fought. Unless your Shepard is misanthropic.

[Icesong]

leonia42 wrote...


That's the beauty of RP, even if there is more auto-dialogue you can always rationalise things the way you want to and no where did I feel like I was railroaded into caring about Earth over other worlds. My Shepard was still a Spectre, she cared about other worlds too but the events of the war eventually forced her to focus on Earth. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, sometimes you don't get a choice. You fight the battles you think you can win.

It's really weird to see you talk about the beauty of RP in relation to auto-dialogue when auto-dialogue is what's harming RP the most, surpassing even voiced protagonists...maybe. The beauty of RP is options, and the second your character goes to open their mouth without any input from you, you're severely constrained in your posibilities. So yes, you have a few, but quite nothing compared to what you would have had otherwise.

Modifié par Icesong, 07 avril 2012 - 01:18 .

[Leonia]

Icesong wrote...

leonia42 wrote...


That's the beauty of RP, even if there is more auto-dialogue you can always rationalise things the way you want to and no where did I feel like I was railroaded into caring about Earth over other worlds. My Shepard was still a Spectre, she cared about other worlds too but the events of the war eventually forced her to focus on Earth. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, sometimes you don't get a choice. You fight the battles you think you can win.

It's really weird to see you talk about the beauty of RP in relation to auto-dialogue when auto-dialogue is what's harming RP the most, surpassing even voiced protagonists...maybe. The beauty of RP is options, and the second your character goes to open their mouth without any input from you, you're severely constrained in your posibilities. So yes, you have a few, but quite nothing compared to what you would have had otherwise.

Certainly it's more challenging, a voice-protagonist is always going to have that issue of not sounding exactly the way you want them to at all times but you can work around that if you develop your character's personality and background beyond what is presented to you in the game itself. It's not easy, Shepard is always going to be Shepard and will be limited to some degree but that doesn't mean the player has to interpret every line of dialogue the same way as every other player.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

My Colonist Shepard cared about Earth, as a cradle of humankind and one of major population centres.
He never wanted it, but he had to act as a leader and tried not to suck at strategy. He'd never allow personal feelings to come in play even if he had to suffer for it tenfold on the inside - and he demonstrated this plenty in previous games in the series. Like saving the council at the sacrifice of many fellow human soldiers (and this was only the start of it).

I've found only one place in ME3 where game actually allowed you to express you standpoint - in one of the talks with Liara you can choose that either you worry about "everybody back on earth" or "about galaxy's infighting". Can't remember anything else...

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 07 avril 2012 - 01:23 .

[ZeBlob987]

The same reason Liara cares so much about Thessia and Garrus about Palaven. It's what you would do

[lillitheris]

Prosarian wrote...
It would be like saying Irish-Americans wouldn't give a damn that Ireland's being decimated since they haven't been there recently. Or African-Americans etc.

Let's say aliens attacked Earth, Ireland among other places. Would your Irish-Americans be concerned solely about Ireland, or would they maybe look at the bigger picture and see what the strategic tradeoffs are?

Also, there's a whole lot that fits between Cerberus and ‘no attachment’.

Saying that Shepard wouldn't care about Earth seems a bit ridiculous, sure he'd care about other species planets, but you'd always look out for your own first and foremost, it's human nature and it can't be fought. Unless your Shepard is misanthropic.

Who's to say my Shepard isn't? Why you trying to oppress me?! This is why I hate humans!

()

Choice. It's about choice. I'm saying that they could have done the same storyline via some nonsense reason or another, whether your Shep cared about Earth or not.

[Prosarian]

Icesong wrote...

leonia42 wrote...


That's the beauty of RP, even if there is more auto-dialogue you can always rationalise things the way you want to and no where did I feel like I was railroaded into caring about Earth over other worlds. My Shepard was still a Spectre, she cared about other worlds too but the events of the war eventually forced her to focus on Earth. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, sometimes you don't get a choice. You fight the battles you think you can win.

It's really weird to see you talk about the beauty of RP in relation to auto-dialogue when auto-dialogue is what's harming RP the most, surpassing even voiced protagonists...maybe. The beauty of RP is options, and the second your character goes to open their mouth without any input from you, you're severely constrained in your posibilities. So yes, you have a few, but quite nothing compared to what you would have had otherwise.

I didn't really notice auto-dialogue so much the first time round, i was too immersed in the story. But once it was pointed out i can't stop noticing it, and it's really jarring. It needlessly takes away a lot of options, even some really simple ones in conversations.

[lillitheris]

ZeBlob987 wrote...

The same reason Liara cares so much about Thessia and Garrus about Palaven. It's what you would do

But it isn't. Not even all paragony humans would feel that way, nevermind renegades. (Although of course some renegades might be super-attached to Earth.)

CHOICES.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

I shudder every time I see statements like "something you *should* do" or "something you *would* do" about game "all about choice" and "personalized character"
If game master wants you to force into something, he should be at least decent to make environment force you to, in natural and logically plausible way, not just "assume direct control".

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 07 avril 2012 - 01:28 .

[Leonia]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

I've found only one place in ME3 where game actually allowed you to express you standpoint - in one of the talks with Liara you can choose that either you worry about "everybody back on earth" or "about galaxy's infighting". Can't remember anything else...

Even if the option to say "I love non-humans!" isn't there that doesn't automatically mean Shepard cannot feel that way. Shepard is your character, what he feels is up to you. Remember: there's a good chance Shepard is suffering from PTSD after leaving Earth behind, regardless of his normal feelings. That probably ties into why he thinks about it more than he normally would have in previous games. He's stressed and he's ready to end the war as soon as humanly possible. Stress and anxiety can do funny things to all of us.