307 réponses à ce sujet

[Prosarian]

lillitheris wrote...

Prosarian wrote...
It would be like saying Irish-Americans wouldn't give a damn that Ireland's being decimated since they haven't been there recently. Or African-Americans etc.

Let's say aliens attacked Earth, Ireland among other places. Would your Irish-Americans be concerned solely about Ireland, or would they maybe look at the bigger picture and see what the strategic tradeoffs are?

Also, there's a whole lot that fits between Cerberus and ‘no attachment’.

Saying that Shepard wouldn't care about Earth seems a bit ridiculous, sure he'd care about other species planets, but you'd always look out for your own first and foremost, it's human nature and it can't be fought. Unless your Shepard is misanthropic.

Who's to say my Shepard isn't? Why you trying to oppress me?! This is why I hate humans!

()

Choice. It's about choice. I'm saying that they could have done the same storyline via some nonsense reason or another, whether your Shep cared about Earth or not.

Choice was really taken out of the game,probably to simplify and streamline the experience. That' s a really unfortunate part of the last game.

[ThatDancingTurian]

ZeBlob987 wrote...

The same reason Liara cares so much about Thessia and Garrus about Palaven. It's what you would do

The difference for non-Earthborn Shepards is, Liara and Garrus were born and raised on their respective homeworlds. Garrus at least still has family there. The same cannot be said of Shepard.

[katamuro]

it was stated i think that earth had the biggest number of reapers on it. Biggest casualties.

[Leonia]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

ZeBlob987 wrote...

The same reason Liara cares so much about Thessia and Garrus about Palaven. It's what you would do

The difference for non-Earthborn Shepards is, Liara and Garrus were born and raised on their respective homeworlds. Garrus at least still has family there. The same cannot be said of Shepard.

Earthborn has no family at all.  It could be easily argued that none of the three backgrounds should really care about Earth all that much.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 avril 2012 - 01:30 .

[Icesong]

Prosarian wrote...

Icesong wrote...

leonia42 wrote...


That's the beauty of RP, even if there is more auto-dialogue you can always rationalise things the way you want to and no where did I feel like I was railroaded into caring about Earth over other worlds. My Shepard was still a Spectre, she cared about other worlds too but the events of the war eventually forced her to focus on Earth. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, sometimes you don't get a choice. You fight the battles you think you can win.

It's really weird to see you talk about the beauty of RP in relation to auto-dialogue when auto-dialogue is what's harming RP the most, surpassing even voiced protagonists...maybe. The beauty of RP is options, and the second your character goes to open their mouth without any input from you, you're severely constrained in your posibilities. So yes, you have a few, but quite nothing compared to what you would have had otherwise.

I didn't really notice auto-dialogue so much the first time round, i was too immersed in the story. But once it was pointed out i can't stop noticing it, and it's really jarring. It needlessly takes away a lot of options, even some really simple ones in conversations.

For a real shocker you should go back to ME1. I did after ME3 and was floored, had forgotten how Shepard said almost nothing without you.

[lillitheris]

leonia42 wrote...

Even if the option to say "I love non-humans!" isn't there that doesn't automatically mean Shepard cannot feel that way.

This is a really weak argument, if I'm honest. You're supposed to be able to make it your Shepard, and then you get all these opinions forced on you!

Sure, I can imagine that Shep's just talking nonsense for some reason and feels differently inside, but I can also imagine that this is actually a He-Man game and he's just having a weird dream because Skeletor poisoned him.

Modifié par lillitheris, 07 avril 2012 - 01:32 .

[BrotherlyTech]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

I can't help but thinking that Shepard's strong feelings about Earth invasion and "liberating it is a key" led him/her into sub-par/rushed resolution of the situation.
Almost during the course of the whole game you can feel the pressure being put up "we must liberate Earth, we must" - but, thinking logically, not emotionally, why? It's just another theater of war, even when pretty important one. Game lore makes plenty of points that it takes Reapers many many decades to actually "win", they are simply have not enough numbers, even if enough power.
You can't also help thinking that rushing all your resource into key battle at Earth ASAP could've prevented finding the proper solution (like finding more about Crucible or whatever Catalyst is or supposed to do).

Also I don't quite understand why Shepard with Colonist/ Spacer background has such strong, almost irrational, emotional attachment to Earth. It appears to me, it's just result of Bioware writers unable to shake mindset of Earth-born 

I wish I could have sacraficed Earth, in an attempt to try to strengthen the Galaxy more, then it would have actually been "Retake Earth," Not, "Try to save it before it gets completely taken by the Reapers, but I have plenty of time to go find some Volus' flag on a random planet though."
I dunno.  In me1 and 2, my Shep has always been about the greater good, equality among the species, and doing everything he does in ME3, simply to get them all to "HALP ME DEFEND EARTHZ!!1! F&$% UR PLANETS!!" Just seemed....wrong.

[Leonia]

I really didn't feel like any opinions were forced on my Shepard, maybe I'm just strange like that.

The plot was Earth-centric from the start, but Shepard.. Shepard was focused on stopping the Reapers, wherever that might take her.

[Transgirlgamer]

Prosarian wrote...

I don't really see why a spacer Shepard or colonist Shepard wouldn't feel any attachment to Earth, it's only been about 30 years since Humanity discovered the mass relays and colonization is pretty new to our species. It would be like saying Irish-Americans wouldn't give a damn that Ireland's being decimated since they haven't been there recently. Or African-Americans etc.

That's not a brilliant analogy as something that happens in one country on a single planet is more likely to affect another country on that same planet.  Also, would Irish-Americans give a damn, if America were being decimated at the same time?

That said, I said that my Shepard wouldn't give more of a damn about Earth than any other planet except as the birthplace of her species.  Which doesn't mean she doesn't give a damn about it, just that it's not significantly more special to her than any other planet, since she was/is a spacer born and raised.  Although if alliance military training takes place on eart hat all, I guess she would develop at least a slight connection to it there, but we don't know for certain that it does.

Saying that Shepard wouldn't care about Earth seems a bit ridiculous, sure he'd care about other species planets, but you'd always look out for your own first and foremost, it's human nature and it can't be fought. Unless your Shepard is misanthropic.

Well, I'm misanthropic and my Shepard is at least partly based on me...

[lillitheris]

We must unite the galaxy to ignore all'y'all's planets and halp mine!

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

lillitheris wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Even if the option to say "I love non-humans!" isn't there that doesn't automatically mean Shepard cannot feel that way.

This is a really weak argument, if I'm honest. You're supposed to be able to make it your Shepard, and then you get all these opinions forced on you!

Yeah, first you say that "how really Shepard feels is up to you", then you say "but! he's feeling under PTSD, thats a law!", so you supposed to remind yourself that you're in the PTSD mindset every time so much, so even when Liara tenderly asks you how you *really* feeling, you just "MUST... SAVE... EARTH..." 

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 07 avril 2012 - 01:35 .

[Leonia]

lillitheris wrote...

We must unite the galaxy to ignore all'y'all's planets and halp mine!

But Shepard never actually says anything quite like that. She helps the other species with their problems so they can help her because she's bringing them ALL together. How is she to know that the final fight will happen on Earth? It just happens that way, the plot dictates that. That has nothing to do with Shepard telling everyone that Earth is more important than any other world. It becomes apparent as the story progresses that losing Earth might mean losing the entire war, the stakes are just that high.

[Leonia]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Even if the option to say "I love non-humans!" isn't there that doesn't automatically mean Shepard cannot feel that way.

This is a really weak argument, if I'm honest. You're supposed to be able to make it your Shepard, and then you get all these opinions forced on you!

Yeah, first you say that "how really Shepard feels is up to you", then you say "but! he's feeling under PTSD, thats a law!", so you supposed to remind yourself that you're in the PTSD mindset every time so much, so even when Liara tenderly asks you how you *really* feeling, you just "MUST... SAVE... EARTH..." 

You can choose to ignore the PTSD symptoms and write it off as non-important but if you're looking for reasons why Shepard cares about Earth and can't come up with any then maybe it would help to think of things from Shepard's perspective instead of your own. As I said, you can interpret and rationalise things however you see fit for your character, I was just putting the PTSD thing out there as an option if you're looking for one.

[Cadeym]

Sending the entire victory fleet to Earth never made any sense, atleast not untill the citadel was moved there as it is capable of locking down mass relays.

A more sane strategy would be to use the citadel to lock down relays and focus on the solar systems with the least reapers in them. Thessia could have been spared entirely if the relay had been lock down as soon as the reapers hit Earth.

Trap the majority of the reapers at Earth, gather the victory fleet and retake Palaven (assuming they got there before the relays were locked down). Then you could build the crucible and try it out.

Modifié par Mouseraider, 07 avril 2012 - 01:40 .

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Btw my Shepard not only a Colonist, but also Sole Survivor. The whole previous game was over my head with how I did beat first and greatest PTSD. And suddenly I get this PTSD all centered about Earth - that contradiction squared!

[Leonia]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Btw my Shepard not only a Colonist, but also Sole Survivor. The whole previous game was over my head with how I did beat first and greatest PTSD. And suddenly I get this PTSD all centered about Earth - that contradiction squared!

You're also free to write the dreams off as just bad dreams and nothing more if you want. Not sure what the contradiction is though. You can experience more than one traumatic event in life and be mentally scarred by it.

[Transgirlgamer]

ZeBlob987 wrote...

The same reason Liara cares so much about Thessia and Garrus about Palaven. It's what you would do

Except I don't feel that way and I was (obviously) born and raised here on Earth.  If, somehow, I was in the same position as Shepard, I wouldn't naturally chose Earth.  I would, as I stated, start with Thessia and move from there as that gives us the best possible tech advantage.  I'd also make sure the Citadel had the best defence it possibly could from the start.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Mouseraider wrote...

Sending the entire victory fleet to Earth never made any sense, atleast not untill the citadel was moved there as it is capable of locking down mass relays.

A more sane strategy would be to use the citadel to lock down relays and focus on the solar systems with the least reapers in them. Thessia could have been spared entirely if the relay had been lock down as soon as the reapers hit Earth.

Trap the majority of the reapers at Earth, gather the victory fleet and retake Palaven (assuming they got there before the relays were locked down). Then you could build the crucible and try it out.

AFAIK no race actually figured out how to "use citatel to lock down relays", only Reapers have this capability.
But I don't see why majority of Reaper's advance could be greately slowed down by attrition tactics (like it was done on Palaven in the end anyway), population centres evacuated - all to give you more time to investigate what the hell Crucible is, what hidden pitfalls does it have and how to properly activate it.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 07 avril 2012 - 01:49 .

[lillitheris]

leonia42 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

We must unite the galaxy to ignore all'y'all's planets and halp mine!

But Shepard never actually says anything quite like that. She helps the other species with their problems so they can help her because she's bringing them ALL together.

She's helping them band together…to help Earth. That is the impetus given to us.

I mean right at the start, Palaven is doing pretty well. Comparatively, anyway, they're actually staving off the attack. If Earth had committed the fleet (which was just kinda hanging around, I guess), they might even have fought the Reapers off! That would have saved tons of lives, and if not outright left Palaven to churn out more material, at least bought time to evacuate the place and then blow the entire system if/when the Reapers come back with a vengeance.

[Dean_the_Young]

Shepard's pro-Human bias has been a constant throughout the series, much like Shepard's steadfast opposition to the Reapers and then how Shepard was willing to work with Cerberus in ME2. All Paragon/Renegade in ME1 shaped was what sort of pro-Human advocate your Shepard was.

[ryuasiu]

There are good reasons for this. With the Krogan helping the Turians they were able to push back the reapers. If Palavin fell, it would crush the moral of the Turians. Same with Earth. If earth fell it would be a crushing blow to moral not only to humans but to the rest of the galaxy. With Thessia being taken down if earth followed that would mean the home planets for 2 of the council species was down, with the other 2 still under siege.

As far as strategically yes we could wait but we already knew they were trying to make a human reaper. More likely why their forces are so concentrated on earth is to work on making another human reaper. If we wait, another human reaper (or several) would be created and they would just get stronger.

[Icesong]

leonia42 wrote...

I really didn't feel like any opinions were forced on my Shepard, maybe I'm just strange like that.
 

Here's some select ****ing to my friends about various auto-dialogue in the game:

me: sucks being forced to be bad at chess
can't even sit through this scene again, skipping
friend: lol @ you not wanting to be bad at chess
doesn't make shepard bad at chess, just makes traynor better at chess
me: but auto-Shepard says **** like "that tactic would've worked in a real battle"
friend: lol
yeah
was about to mention that
relating chess to real life makes her bad i guess
cutscene shepard
not my shepard


-----

me: auto-Shepard: Be careful.
Miranda: I can't promise that Shepard. Could you?
auto-Shepard: No("YES"). I couldn't("I COULD").

-----

me: wtf Joker
like i care about Joker that much
friend: lol
he's symbolic
me: of what?
/thinks of all the negative things i associate Joker with
symbolic of auto-Shepard
ignored and disliked in ME1, auto-Sheparded into bffs in ME2
maybe i should call auto-Shepard "Shepherd"
we're the sheep and we're being herded into it


------

me: "What the **** am I crying about, I hate Kaidan"
or that other line from her
Liara: The Major has become quite capable.
auto-Shepard: Agreed.
"DISAGREED!"

[Transgirlgamer]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard's pro-Human bias has been a constant throughout the series, much like Shepard's steadfast opposition to the Reapers and then how Shepard was willing to work with Cerberus in ME2. All Paragon/Renegade in ME1 shaped was what sort of pro-Human advocate your Shepard was.

True, Shepard's dialog throughout has been pro-human, that doesn't have to mean pro-earth though.  As far as we know, colonist and spacer shepard have never even set foot on earth untill the start of ME3.  Unless there's something I've missed, which is entirely possible.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Btw my Shepard not only a Colonist, but also Sole Survivor. The whole previous game was over my head with how I did beat first and greatest PTSD. And suddenly I get this PTSD all centered about Earth - that contradiction squared!

Speaking of this, I really wish SS Shep had something to say about being in the lair of the mother of all thresher maws.

[ryuasiu]

leonia42 wrote...

I really didn't feel like any opinions were forced on my Shepard, maybe I'm just strange like that.

The plot was Earth-centric from the start, but Shepard.. Shepard was focused on stopping the Reapers, wherever that might take her.

This. Also he was pretty upset watching Thessia falling to the reapers. Shepard was pretty ********* when joker made that joke that they needed less dancers and more comandos

EDIT: Actually I was too. Literally wanted to smack the bosh'tet

Modifié par ryuasiu, 07 avril 2012 - 01:59 .