307 réponses à ce sujet

[sedrikhcain]

Icesong wrote...

It would be like saying Irish-Americans wouldn't give a damn that Ireland's being decimated since they haven't been there recently. Or African-Americans etc.

For the record, as an "African-American" I wouldn't care about Africa. And I want my Shepard to not get emotional about Earth for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that she should've been mentally prepared for this eventuality. I picked "Ruthless" for a reason.

ETA: Perhaps less of a pull to Africa but if you were someone whose parents were from the US, I'd expect you to feel some emotional pull towards it if it were being devastated, even if you never lived there.


I'm an African American, too, and I think it's a lot easier to role play this kind of total selfessness, or say it's true, than to actually do it. Most of us humans work hard at being inclusive, fair, colorblind, etc, but let's face it, for the majority of us, there is a stronger emotional attachment to whatever we perceive as the "us" in any "us vs them" conflict. I'm not saying that's right and I'm not saying you're lying -- perhaps you're just that special. I think people are unfairly slamming BioWare for making Shepard realistically human here.

Modifié par sedrikhcain, 08 avril 2012 - 05:05 .

[sedrikhcain]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

I can't help but thinking that Shepard's strong feelings about Earth invasion and "liberating it is a key" led him/her into sub-par/rushed resolution of the situation.
Almost during the course of the whole game you can feel the pressure being put up "we must liberate Earth, we must" - but, thinking logically, not emotionally, why? It's just another theater of war, even when pretty important one. Game lore makes plenty of points that it takes Reapers many many decades to actually "win", they are simply have not enough numbers, even if enough power.
You can't also help thinking that rushing all your resource into key battle at Earth ASAP could've prevented finding the proper solution (like finding more about Crucible or whatever Catalyst is or supposed to do).

Also I don't quite understand why Shepard with Colonist/ Spacer background has such strong, almost irrational, emotional attachment to Earth. It appears to me, it's just result of Bioware writers unable to shake mindset of Earth-born 

EDIT: It appears some people don't see distinction between human race and Earth. I don't believe that © TIM
There are plenty of examples in history when ethnicity survived long past their original homeland. In ME Universe the good example is Quarians

Getting myself back onto the original topic (sort of), what I don't get is why the Reapers focused on Earth, or any of the other planets, instead of taking the Citadel first, as in their typical MO.

[dakka dakka]

I look at it this way.

Shepard is Human

Humans originate from Earth. Even if there are a BILLION Human worlds Earth would still be special because that is where Humanity started. Spacer Shep has connections to Earth just by the nature of being Human.

[sedrikhcain]

MelancholyV wrote...

My Shepard made ONE comment about Mindoir during the Ashes DLC, but otherwise it seemed like she was born and raised on Earth. It was a bit frustrating since there would have been few times that she was actually on the damn planet. She would understand the invasion is a big deal and it's the humans' homeworld, but her sympathy would end about there.

I think that understates it by quite a bit. BW should've done a better job differentiating between the feelings of the Earthborn and the spacer but I think this notion that the spacer or colonist really won't care much, emotionally, about seeing the ancestral homeworld go down in flames is seriously misguided. It's only been, what, a couple of hundred years? So everyone's something 4 or 5 ancestors removed from relatives who new nothing but Earth. Our culture, our politics, everything would still be firmly grounded in the home world. Yet people on these boards often seem puzzled or even made hostile by the notion that Earth would still be a very big deal for ALL humans.

[sedrikhcain]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Heh, to quote Carl Sagan:

"Our remote descendants, safely arrayed on many worlds throughout the Solar System and beyond, will be unified by their common heritage, by their regard for their home planet, and by the knowledge that, whatever other life may be, the only humans in all the Universe come from Earth. They will gaze up and strain to find the blue dot in their skies. They will love it no less for its obscurity and fragility. They will marvel at how vulnerable the repository of all our potential once was, how perilous our infancy, how humble our beginnings, how many rivers we had to cross before we found our way."

My ancestors came from cradles of humankind like Africa. I don't have particularly strong affection to this place on the globe though.

You're talking about thousands (millions?) of years. In ME, you're talking about only 200 years beyond the time when every human knew Earth as home and didn't know anything else was possible.

[sedrikhcain]

m_k wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

m_k wrote...

Erixxxx wrote...

The
ultimate goal for all races in the galaxy is to stop the Reapers
completely, and yet they still care about their own homeworlds the most.
It's only natural. Survival instinct kicks in when pushed into a
corner.

I understand the overall reactions (of the other races, the military, politicians etc) but not Shepard's. Because he/she knows better. And Spectres fight for the stability and preservation of every species.

And he does so too. However, being biased when seeing your own homeworld getting invaded by huge sentient machines that want to harvest your people is only natural to me.

The problem is that we weren't given a choice. My Shepard never showed
any particular interest in Earth in the past two games. It made no
sense to start now.

While I'm not sure why the whole game had to be centred around Earth in ME3 (beyond marketing), once the Reapers got to Earth, it made perfect sense for Shepard to be concerned about them, because Shepard is an alliance soldier and humanity is the Alliance's primary concern. Just like the Asari are most concerned with the Asari, Krogan with Krogan, etc.

[sedrikhcain]

m_k wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...


Also I don't quite understand why Shepard with Colonist/ Spacer background has such strong, almost irrational, emotional attachment to Earth.

I didn'tlike the strong emotional attachment autoshep reflected. One of the problems of so much autodialogue unfortunately.

And people complained that Shepard wasn't emotional enough in ME2. When is the balance ever going to be perfect for everybody?

Again, the problem is that we didn't have a choice.

What choice would you have liked to have?

[sedrikhcain]

Icesong wrote...

On a similar but not unrelated topic, what happened to being a Spectre? Being an Alliance soldier was pushed instead. If you had the option of caring more about being a Spectre then, were you a duty-driven Shepard like mine, this would've given you an excellent avenue through which to prioritize the galaxy over Earth.

The game actually presents it as fighting for Earth and the galaxy being one in the same mission. And, to be honest, the way they set it up, that turns out to be true. My problem is that it never made any sense for the Reapers to hit Earth before they hit the Citadel.

[Tom Lehrer]

I'm not sure if this has been said but all the other races were not throwing in their support to save Earth but to build and protect the Crucible.

Side note, by the ME time line humans have only been building colonies outside Sol for about 30 years.

Modifié par Tom Lehrer, 08 avril 2012 - 05:25 .

[MakeMineMako]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Heh, to quote Carl Sagan:

"Our remote descendants, safely arrayed on many worlds throughout the Solar System and beyond, will be unified by their common heritage, by their regard for their home planet, and by the knowledge that, whatever other life may be, the only humans in all the Universe come from Earth. They will gaze up and strain to find the blue dot in their skies. They will love it no less for its obscurity and fragility. They will marvel at how vulnerable the repository of all our potential once was, how perilous our infancy, how humble our beginnings, how many rivers we had to cross before we found our way."

My ancestors came from cradles of humankind like Africa. I don't have particularly strong affection to this place on the globe though.

Yeah, but there is a big gap between thirty years and a million years.

Humanity hasn't been a player in the galactic community long enough to lose a strong attachment to the homeworld. Hell, the Asari have been scooting around the stars for right at 2,000 years, and many still feel a strong attachment to Thessia.

[jamesgilmer]

 The largest concentration of Reapers were based in the Sol system
The Prothean archives are in the Sol system.
The main vanguard of the Reaper fleet is in the Sol system, including their heavy Sovereign class ships.
In a war of attrition the organics have always lost in past cycles. 
The Reapers simply wiped out the Baaratian systems in order to get to earth, and while they're keeping the rest of the galaxy occupied, their main force is STILL in Sol. 
Also, from a personal view; Anderson is back on earth and Shepard promised he'd come back.
The human fleets have regrouped and are ready to take a crack at earth, which is under surgical assault unlike other race's planets where the Reapers are just glassing planets right and left. Thessia for example. 
No single fleet can stop the Reapers and the galaxy needs a BIG win, so taking on the main Reaper command fleet around earth would be a massive win. If they can break the back of the Reaper fleet, even with heavy losses, they can look at prising them out of other systems.

Also, unlike most species, the humans pulled their fleets out. They have one of the larger intact fleets and want to liberate their homeworld. To do so they have a superweapon they want to test that they're not sure what will happen when they fire it.

When you combine everything together it starts to not look like a bad idea to throw in with the humans AFTER their human leader, who has raised an army by him(her)self and defeated multiple Reapers, has prepared a plan that's the best they have. Especially since it's payback for getting the turians aid on Palavan allowing more civilians to get off and more of their military to fall back, either brokered a peace deal or enlisted either the quarians or geth into the war, and possibly recruied loads of other forces from STG to krogan to Omega merc bands.

And don't forget that technically it's Hackett who is calling the shots as the leader of the largest intact and unengaged fleet in the galaxy.

Considering that at that point they've all decided it's do or die, it's not farfetched that they'd be willing to throw in with the race and commanders who've managed wins against the Reapers.

[Cainne Chapel]

My question is. Knowing what shepard knows

Why WOULDN'T he fight to save earth?

He knows due to HIS influence, he made humanity prime target number 1, The reapers beelined towards earth and made it their main siege target and by all accounts (as Udina said) it is where the bulk of the reaper fleet lies.

The grand total of humans outside of the sol system (Colonies and what not) is a few million to a few dozen million people at MOST. He's fighting to protect the BILLIONS that were stuck on earth and suffering an attack that he is directly responsible for in a way.

So THATS why he would fight to save earth. Dont forget he's a military man through and through he fights to protect those he cares about and extrapolate that against a galaxy wide threat, he's fighting not only to protect his friends and the galaxy, but ALSO his SPECIES.

Thats why earth would be important to him no matter what background he had, even if he was a colonist, those colonists came from earth somewhere int heir 30 year past.

So being human, he's going to have some ties to his homeworld regardless. and knowing the crucible is a super weapon he needs it to get to earth to wipe out the bulk of the reaper forces and thus make finishing off the rest of the reapers and easier job.

Thats what I think anyway.

[N7 MACK]

Yeah, I felt as though my Shep was a selfish doucher.

"Earth" this, "Earth" that, "Screw Palevan, you're sending troops to Earth whether you like it or not!"

[Sgt Stryker]

Think of it this way: 11 billion humans on Earth. A few hundred million (at most) humans scattered throughout the rest of the galaxy. Puts things in perspective, doesn't it? Also, Shepard is human, so I would think he would somewhat care about his own species. I know I would.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 08 avril 2012 - 05:35 .

[Cainne Chapel]

Another thing to remember in the future humanities cultural identity is more than likely different than it is with us today.

Think about it, we identify on a geographic level: Town/City/State/Country etc. I would imagine in the future with everything being intertwined more than likely and with our horizons expanding to include multiple worlds and alien culture its not so much an identification with your general area but with your planet and species as a whole.

When you deal with aliens on a regular basis, cultural prejudices i would imagine tend to fall by the wayside as its no longer "Hey you're taller/shorter/fatter/different colored/religious/ etc, from me" its "Hey....you're human, like me"

So in a sense any human, especially one like commander shepard is going to feel a strong tie to his species planet merely on principle too.

[Terraforming2154]

The only time it really bothered me was when Shepard said, "The Citadel? The fight's here." That comment was just beyond inane in my opinion. I understand being scared for your own species - I understand the emotional investment of Earth. But did Shepard suddenly stop caring about every other system in the galaxy getting hit or getting ready to be hit by Reaper attacks? Did Shepard stop realizing unity was the only chance anyone would have against the Reapers? What good would isolating themself to fighting on Earth do?

Everything else I can handle, even my Colonist Shep calling Earth her home, but that one line was the only one that really struck me as off.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 08 avril 2012 - 05:59 .

[jamesgilmer]

 Shepard has also helped fight on everyone else's homeworlds. He's given Palavan enough time to get more forces and civilians clear. He's given Rannoch back to the quarians or at least saved the Geth. He tried to stop the destruction of Thessia but failed, but he has saved the asari diplomat as well as the entire council. He's calling in favours at the end of the game as the whole earth assault isn't so much about taking earth back at that point as using the Crucible.

By that time the galactic militaries are pretty shattered too. It makes sense to unite under one banner to at least attempt the best plan anyone seems to have.

[sedrikhcain]

Terraforming2154 wrote...

The only time it really bothered me was when Shepard said, "The Citadel? The fight's here." That comment was just beyond inane in my opinion. I understand being scared for your own species - I understand the emotional investment of Earth. But did Shepard suddenly stop caring about every other system in the galaxy getting hit or getting ready to be hit by Reaper attacks? Did Shepard stop realizing unity was the only chance anyone would have against the Reapers? What good would isolating themself to fighting on Earth do?

Everything else I can handle, even my Colonist Shep calling Earth her home, but that one line was the only one that really struck me as off.

I didn't see that comment that way. Anderson hadn't even made clear yet why he was sending Shepard away. Shepard's a soldier and a fight with what she/he knows to be the greatest enemy of all, the Shepard knew he/she would face one day, is now right in front of his face. I don't think that comment was even about Earth, I think it was about "what, you mean you don't want me to fight the Reapers standing right here in front of my face?" I think that convo could've taken place on Thessia and it would've gone exactly the same way.

[sedrikhcain]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

Another thing to remember in the future humanities cultural identity is more than likely different than it is with us today.

Think about it, we identify on a geographic level: Town/City/State/Country etc. I would imagine in the future with everything being intertwined more than likely and with our horizons expanding to include multiple worlds and alien culture its not so much an identification with your general area but with your planet and species as a whole.

When you deal with aliens on a regular basis, cultural prejudices i would imagine tend to fall by the wayside as its no longer "Hey you're taller/shorter/fatter/different colored/religious/ etc, from me" its "Hey....you're human, like me"

So in a sense any human, especially one like commander shepard is going to feel a strong tie to his species planet merely on principle too.

Exactly.

[sedrikhcain]

jamesgilmer wrote...

 The largest concentration of Reapers were based in the Sol system
The Prothean archives are in the Sol system.
The main vanguard of the Reaper fleet is in the Sol system, including their heavy Sovereign class ships.
In a war of attrition the organics have always lost in past cycles. 
The Reapers simply wiped out the Baaratian systems in order to get to earth, and while they're keeping the rest of the galaxy occupied, their main force is STILL in Sol. 
Also, from a personal view; Anderson is back on earth and Shepard promised he'd come back.
The human fleets have regrouped and are ready to take a crack at earth, which is under surgical assault unlike other race's planets where the Reapers are just glassing planets right and left. Thessia for example. 
No single fleet can stop the Reapers and the galaxy needs a BIG win, so taking on the main Reaper command fleet around earth would be a massive win. If they can break the back of the Reaper fleet, even with heavy losses, they can look at prising them out of other systems.

Also, unlike most species, the humans pulled their fleets out. They have one of the larger intact fleets and want to liberate their homeworld. To do so they have a superweapon they want to test that they're not sure what will happen when they fire it.

When you combine everything together it starts to not look like a bad idea to throw in with the humans AFTER their human leader, who has raised an army by him(her)self and defeated multiple Reapers, has prepared a plan that's the best they have. Especially since it's payback for getting the turians aid on Palavan allowing more civilians to get off and more of their military to fall back, either brokered a peace deal or enlisted either the quarians or geth into the war, and possibly recruied loads of other forces from STG to krogan to Omega merc bands.

And don't forget that technically it's Hackett who is calling the shots as the leader of the largest intact and unengaged fleet in the galaxy.

Considering that at that point they've all decided it's do or die, it's not farfetched that they'd be willing to throw in with the race and commanders who've managed wins against the Reapers.

Agreed. I'm not sure why the Reapers  came in force to Earth and ignored the Citadel until the figured out the whole Crucible thing -- which they should've known all about anyway -- but given the situation as it is, Shepard's approach, and the Alliance's, made perfect sense.

[ubermensch007]

Shepard's Earth-centric bias - anybody else felt it?

Oh I felt it alright... or rather it copt a feel. And it was loathsome...

The single line that disturbed me the most.Is "It feels good to be back home."

My Commander Shepard is a colonist and war hero.He has only been to Earth three or four times in his entire life.His fondest memories of the planet is when he went there with his family at the age of ten, for summer vacation. He recognizes the signifigance of a homeworld, even if Legion does not. A Homeworld is where a species was brought into existence itself.And that is what gives it a sacred value.

But ever since his life was forever altered after coming into contact with the Beacon on Eden Prime. His primary concern has been to find a way to defeat the Reapers and chose to either be pro-human or pro-galactic. He's more the latter, than the former.He does not suffer fools, and has contempt for cowardice and weakness.When Anderson told him that the Defense Committe was afraid.The people responsible for defending humanity from threats foreign and domestic.Are afraid of what lies ahead. that about made him say, "To hell with them (humanity) .Right then and there.

When earth fell--he did not lose his sh!t like Liara does after The Fall of Thessia. He's also not a big fan of the Alliance.And sees that they are still as lame as ever at doing what there suppose to. They failed to protect Mindoir and every other human world under their auspices.So why should they do any better protecting Earth.

If Shepard wasn't human.If he didn't feel a need to prove that their is strength and goodness in our species. He would probably be indifferent to ****** sapiens plight during The Reaper War.

[Terraforming2154]

sedrikhcain wrote...

Terraforming2154 wrote...

The only time it really bothered me was when Shepard said, "The Citadel? The fight's here." That comment was just beyond inane in my opinion. I understand being scared for your own species - I understand the emotional investment of Earth. But did Shepard suddenly stop caring about every other system in the galaxy getting hit or getting ready to be hit by Reaper attacks? Did Shepard stop realizing unity was the only chance anyone would have against the Reapers? What good would isolating themself to fighting on Earth do?

Everything else I can handle, even my Colonist Shep calling Earth her home, but that one line was the only one that really struck me as off.

I didn't see that comment that way. Anderson hadn't even made clear yet why he was sending Shepard away. Shepard's a soldier and a fight with what she/he knows to be the greatest enemy of all, the Shepard knew he/she would face one day, is now right in front of his face. I don't think that comment was even about Earth, I think it was about "what, you mean you don't want me to fight the Reapers standing right here in front of my face?" I think that convo could've taken place on Thessia and it would've gone exactly the same way.

Huh, well I have to say I like how you interpreted the line a lot better than I did - your explanation definitely makes sense.
I guess the line just feels too reactive (maybe even short-sighted) to me, but I will concede that it doesn't really have to be about Earth at all and I was most likely projecting that implication onto it.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 08 avril 2012 - 06:33 .

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Problem is, most of earth tactical significance, reapers clustering there, citadel moving there, etc, etc - all of this happens much later in the game. Is Shepard secretly chewing Spice? It would also help if there would be more emphasis on tactical reasons, instead "we need to take back Earth, because, ...um, you know... Its EARTH!Yeah!... And we were hit first!"
Also, did Shepard help *liberate* Palawen? Or Thessia? Why he expects them to provide massive resources to free Earth "in exchange"? Is this fair exchange for them?

[ShepnTali]

Love it or leave it.

[zennyrpg]

I was actually hoping there was a choice to sacrifice sol. I personally have no loyalties to the earth in the ME universe .