232 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaelducan]

It would be awesome if Bioware released numbers showing the party composition of teams successfully extracting on Gold.

Percentage-wise I'd guess (purely non-scientific only based on what I've personally seen) salarian infs are about 30% represented on successful runs.

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Phaelducan wrote...

It would be awesome if Bioware released numbers showing the party composition of teams successfully extracting on Gold.

Percentage-wise I'd guess (purely non-scientific only based on what I've personally seen) salarian infs are about 30% represented on successful runs.

Not unlikley.

I'd guess Asari adepts would be pretty close along with QIs from the geth farming days.

Krogan and maybe drell would probaly be at the bottom. 

[Varthun]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Like I said before, my tier list is based on two criteria.

1. Overall Effectiveness (which includes personal opinion, chance of success, value to team, ease of use, etc...)

2. Score Potential

Engineers are a good class, no doubt, but they are mid tier primarily because of their score potential. They will not outscore an equivalently skilled player whos using a class from the higher tiers except in rare situations.

Understandable, but questionable.

Example: An infiltrator will outscore an engineer. Of course.
However, which is greater? An infiltrator scoring 80k over 7 waves because you wiped, or an Infiltrator that scored 130k+ because one of the "support classes" kept the match alive longer? I would re-evaluate the value of support classes. Especially ones with mass CC.

[Atheosis]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Those tiers are my opinion, which ofcourse is not perfect. That thread is very old and has been debated back and forth, and classes have been adjusted accordingly. Nobody is saying that the best player in the game isnt going to be playing a class from the bottom tier.

Just because you dont agree with it doesn't make it a joke list. Why don't you create a better list with hard evidence and prove to me how wrong I am with my ratings? Also, if you read the thread, you would know that the tiers are based primarily on overall effectiveness (which averages out viability among different factions), and score potential. Why dont you add me to friends and outscore me with your krogan soldier while I play a human infiltrator to prove me wrong?

I already explained why it's a joke, and my explanation kind of makes me attempting to create a competing list a joke as well.  The point is that there are too many variables involved to make a set tier list like that.  On top of which your tier list is too connected to points.  Points are not a proper measurement of class power or utility.  They are really only good at showing the classes that do good burst damage and therefore get kills rather than assists (the system used to assign points is ridiculously weighted towards killing blows for some reason if you haven't noticed).

Oh and your last sentence is yet another joke.  Our respective skill levels and overall mastery of two particular classes is completely immaterial.  I've seen a Human Soldier score a 100K while a Salarian Infiltrator scored 60k.  Does that prove you wrong? 

[GodlessPaladin]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...
Because Infillys can solo gold is a testament to the fact that
it's the easiest class to beat gold with

...I have soloed Gold against every faction with at least one race for each of the six classes.  "Because infiltrators can solo gold" does not mean anything because I (and therefore any sufficiently skilled player) can solo gold with any class.  Including both the Human and Krogan soldiers.

Again, tier lists by convention assume high competence execution and regard difficulty of execution as irrelevant (otherwise, people would care that, say, Magneto's combos are harder to input than Hulk's in MvC3 when constructing tier lists.  But they don't.  Sooooo yeah).

Incidentally, I felt that soloing Gold was EASIER as some classes that WERE NOT the infiltrator, particularly in cases like hacking objectives vs Cerberus (4 phantoms at a time) or vs Reapers (everything about reaper strategy).  Vanguards made these really easy to solo.  Of course, Infiltrators made device objectives painless. 

Asari Vanguard vs Cerberus in particular was a cakewalk solo run.  1 carnifex shot for guardians and troopers, 2 for centurions and nemesis and engineers, 3 for phantoms.  Ignore atlasses until they're the last one's left.  Occasionally cause biotic explosions.  Zip around the map unfetterred.

It was like being a BW infiltrator except the enemies couldn't dodge, and I didn't need to wait for cloak cooldowns.  The ONLY case in which I felt that an infiltrator would have been nicer was when I was stuck with device objectives, and even then they were only OCCASIONALLY a hindrance, and would have been no hindrance at all if I had even one teammate.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 07 avril 2012 - 07:52 .

[Atheosis]

Varthun wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Like I said before, my tier list is based on two criteria.

1. Overall Effectiveness (which includes personal opinion, chance of success, value to team, ease of use, etc...)

2. Score Potential

Engineers are a good class, no doubt, but they are mid tier primarily because of their score potential. They will not outscore an equivalently skilled player whos using a class from the higher tiers except in rare situations.

Understandable, but questionable.

Example: An infiltrator will outscore an engineer. Of course.
However, which is greater? An infiltrator scoring 80k over 7 waves because you wiped, or an Infiltrator that scored 130k+ because one of the "support classes" kept the match alive longer? I would re-evaluate the value of support classes. Especially ones with mass CC.

Where he ranks support classes should tell you how little he understands the overall team dynamic of this game, and how much he focuses on the scoreboard instead.  This is a common theme with many Infilitrator fanatics I've noticed.  

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Varthun wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Like I said before, my tier list is based on two criteria.

1. Overall Effectiveness (which includes personal opinion, chance of success, value to team, ease of use, etc...)

2. Score Potential

Engineers are a good class, no doubt, but they are mid tier primarily because of their score potential. They will not outscore an equivalently skilled player whos using a class from the higher tiers except in rare situations.

Understandable, but questionable.

Example: An infiltrator will outscore an engineer. Of course.
However, which is greater? An infiltrator scoring 80k over 7 waves because you wiped, or an Infiltrator that scored 130k+ because one of the "support classes" kept the match alive longer? I would re-evaluate the value of support classes. Especially ones with mass CC.

The problem with that example though is the Infilly really dosen't benefit from support classes. A decoy drawing fire dosen't relaly help a class who can avoid the fire easily without it. 

His utility with cloak makes him near invincible and able to kite around the map as long as needed without getting killed. The Salarian infilly especially since any time hes in danger he can simply activate shield drain and recharge his shields. 

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...
Because Infillys can solo gold is a testament to the fact that
it's the easiest class to beat gold with

...I have soloed Gold against every faction with at least one race for each of the six classes.  

Stopped reading there.

Pics or it didn't happen. 

[Varthun]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Varthun wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Like I said before, my tier list is based on two criteria.

1. Overall Effectiveness (which includes personal opinion, chance of success, value to team, ease of use, etc...)

2. Score Potential

Engineers are a good class, no doubt, but they are mid tier primarily because of their score potential. They will not outscore an equivalently skilled player whos using a class from the higher tiers except in rare situations.

Understandable, but questionable.

Example: An infiltrator will outscore an engineer. Of course.
However, which is greater? An infiltrator scoring 80k over 7 waves because you wiped, or an Infiltrator that scored 130k+ because one of the "support classes" kept the match alive longer? I would re-evaluate the value of support classes. Especially ones with mass CC.

The problem with that example though is the Infilly really dosen't benefit from support classes. A decoy drawing fire dosen't relaly help a class who can avoid the fire easily without it. 

His utility with cloak makes him near invincible and able to kite around the map as long as needed without getting killed. The Salarian infilly especially since any time hes in danger he can simply activate shield drain and recharge his shields. 

Excepting a hacking wave where he has managed to stay alive, but still loses because he runs out of time.

Every class benefits from mob control. Actually, any game benefits from controlling your opponent but that's another idea altogether.

Modifié par Varthun, 07 avril 2012 - 07:50 .

[Atheosis]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...
Because Infillys can solo gold is a testament to the fact that
it's the easiest class to beat gold with

...I have soloed Gold against every faction with at least one race for each of the six classes.  "Because infiltrators can solo gold" does not mean anything because I (and therefore any sufficiently skilled player) can solo gold with any class.  Including both the Human and Krogan soldiers.

Again, tier lists by convention assume high competence execution and regard difficulty of execution as irrelevant (otherwise, people would care that, say, Magneto's combos are harder to input than Hulk's in MvC3 when constructing tier lists.  But they don't.  Sooooo yeah).

You soloed Gold with a Krogan Soldier?  I'd like to see that video.

[Sabresandiego]

On a top tier team, the engineer cc is less needed because enemies are falling to their death like crazy. If my tier list was so wrong, why does the fastest clear of gold reapers on youtube have classes from tier 1-1.2 on my list? We also did a 15:12 clear with me playing as the drell vanguard, which people like to think is a terrible class.

More about drell vanguard: They dont have great power synergy, its a simple class. You move super fast, and have the best grenades in the game. Thats it! and its enough to make it a top class. You use your weapon, use charge if your shields drop, stay constantly mobile, and annihilate things with grenades.

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Atheosis wrote...

Varthun wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Like I said before, my tier list is based on two criteria.

1. Overall Effectiveness (which includes personal opinion, chance of success, value to team, ease of use, etc...)

2. Score Potential

Engineers are a good class, no doubt, but they are mid tier primarily because of their score potential. They will not outscore an equivalently skilled player whos using a class from the higher tiers except in rare situations.

Understandable, but questionable.

Example: An infiltrator will outscore an engineer. Of course.
However, which is greater? An infiltrator scoring 80k over 7 waves because you wiped, or an Infiltrator that scored 130k+ because one of the "support classes" kept the match alive longer? I would re-evaluate the value of support classes. Especially ones with mass CC.

Where he ranks support classes should tell you how little he understands the overall team dynamic of this game, and how much he focuses on the scoreboard instead.  This is a common theme with many Infilitrator fanatics I've noticed.  

Infillies don't need support because they can't die if they are good enough. 
He also ranks the most underated support classes of drell towards the top so your point seems rather void. 

[Atheosis]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Varthun wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Like I said before, my tier list is based on two criteria.

1. Overall Effectiveness (which includes personal opinion, chance of success, value to team, ease of use, etc...)

2. Score Potential

Engineers are a good class, no doubt, but they are mid tier primarily because of their score potential. They will not outscore an equivalently skilled player whos using a class from the higher tiers except in rare situations.

Understandable, but questionable.

Example: An infiltrator will outscore an engineer. Of course.
However, which is greater? An infiltrator scoring 80k over 7 waves because you wiped, or an Infiltrator that scored 130k+ because one of the "support classes" kept the match alive longer? I would re-evaluate the value of support classes. Especially ones with mass CC.

The problem with that example though is the Infilly really dosen't benefit from support classes. A decoy drawing fire dosen't relaly help a class who can avoid the fire easily without it. 

His utility with cloak makes him near invincible and able to kite around the map as long as needed without getting killed. The Salarian infilly especially since any time hes in danger he can simply activate shield drain and recharge his shields. 

Okay, this thread is starting to make me sick with its elitism.  Moving on...

[Varthun]

Sabresandiego wrote...

On a top tier team, the engineer cc is less needed because enemies are falling to their death like crazy. If my tier list was so wrong, why does the fastest clear of gold reapers on youtube have classes from tier 1-1.2 on my list? We also did a 15:12 clear with me playing as the drell vanguard, which people like to think is a terrible class.

More about drell vanguard: They dont have great power synergy, its a simple class. You move super fast, and have the best grenades in the game. Thats it! and its enough to make it a top class. You use your weapon, use charge if your shields drop, stay constantly mobile, and annihilate things with grenades.

Because co-ordination (especially against an opponent that is incapable of dramatic shifts in gameplay) will always be king. Get a good group of players together playing classes exclusively from tier 2 and tier 3, and you can still achieve a 15-17 minute clear if you're on top of your game.

Also, on the topic of "not needing CC". 100% true. CC is never "necessary" if you play well enough, however CC makes up for mistakes and absorbs misplays. Which, aside from perhaps the top 5-7% of players, everyone will make mistakes.

Modifié par Varthun, 07 avril 2012 - 07:53 .

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Varthun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Varthun wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Like I said before, my tier list is based on two criteria.

1. Overall Effectiveness (which includes personal opinion, chance of success, value to team, ease of use, etc...)

2. Score Potential

Engineers are a good class, no doubt, but they are mid tier primarily because of their score potential. They will not outscore an equivalently skilled player whos using a class from the higher tiers except in rare situations.

Understandable, but questionable.

Example: An infiltrator will outscore an engineer. Of course.
However, which is greater? An infiltrator scoring 80k over 7 waves because you wiped, or an Infiltrator that scored 130k+ because one of the "support classes" kept the match alive longer? I would re-evaluate the value of support classes. Especially ones with mass CC.

The problem with that example though is the Infilly really dosen't benefit from support classes. A decoy drawing fire dosen't relaly help a class who can avoid the fire easily without it. 

His utility with cloak makes him near invincible and able to kite around the map as long as needed without getting killed. The Salarian infilly especially since any time hes in danger he can simply activate shield drain and recharge his shields. 

Excepting a hacking wave where he has managed to stay alive, but still loses because he runs out of time.

With enough skill he can do both. 

[GodlessPaladin]

Atheosis wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...
Because Infillys can solo gold is a testament to the fact that
it's the easiest class to beat gold with

...I have soloed Gold against every faction with at least one race for each of the six classes.  "Because infiltrators can solo gold" does not mean anything because I (and therefore any sufficiently skilled player) can solo gold with any class.  Including both the Human and Krogan soldiers.

Again, tier lists by convention assume high competence execution and regard difficulty of execution as irrelevant (otherwise, people would care that, say, Magneto's combos are harder to input than Hulk's in MvC3 when constructing tier lists.  But they don't.  Sooooo yeah).

You soloed Gold with a Krogan Soldier?  I'd like to see that video.

I play on Xbox360, how do you suggest I record a video?

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Atheosis wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Varthun wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Like I said before, my tier list is based on two criteria.

1. Overall Effectiveness (which includes personal opinion, chance of success, value to team, ease of use, etc...)

2. Score Potential

Engineers are a good class, no doubt, but they are mid tier primarily because of their score potential. They will not outscore an equivalently skilled player whos using a class from the higher tiers except in rare situations.

Understandable, but questionable.

Example: An infiltrator will outscore an engineer. Of course.
However, which is greater? An infiltrator scoring 80k over 7 waves because you wiped, or an Infiltrator that scored 130k+ because one of the "support classes" kept the match alive longer? I would re-evaluate the value of support classes. Especially ones with mass CC.

The problem with that example though is the Infilly really dosen't benefit from support classes. A decoy drawing fire dosen't relaly help a class who can avoid the fire easily without it. 

His utility with cloak makes him near invincible and able to kite around the map as long as needed without getting killed. The Salarian infilly especially since any time hes in danger he can simply activate shield drain and recharge his shields. 

Okay, this thread is starting to make me sick with its elitism.  Moving on...

Elitism? really? Comparing the classes is elitism? I'm not saying "everyone who dosen't play an infilly shouldn't play gold" that would be elitism what i'm saying is that Infillies are the best option for completing gold.

And incase you don't know me from the forums already i play a Krogan almost exsclusivley. Which is on the bottom tier of the list i posted so i'd hardly consider myself an elitist. 

[Phaelducan]

Just another reason why having access to stat tracking would be great. I doubt Bioware will ever release information about how many times any one class/race combo has solo'd gold (though I suspect the numbers are quite low).

[Varthun]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

With enough skill he can do both. 

And with enough skill, a Turian Sentinel with detonations can trump a Salarian Infiltrator. Skill is assumed equal between all players when creating a list of any sort of tier. So if you assume that a Sentinel isn't smart enough to detonate continuously, then you have to assume the Infiltrator isn't skilled enough to hack an objective solo on gold.

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Atheosis wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...
Because Infillys can solo gold is a testament to the fact that
it's the easiest class to beat gold with

...I have soloed Gold against every faction with at least one race for each of the six classes.  "Because infiltrators can solo gold" does not mean anything because I (and therefore any sufficiently skilled player) can solo gold with any class.  Including both the Human and Krogan soldiers.

Again, tier lists by convention assume high competence execution and regard difficulty of execution as irrelevant (otherwise, people would care that, say, Magneto's combos are harder to input than Hulk's in MvC3 when constructing tier lists.  But they don't.  Sooooo yeah).

You soloed Gold with a Krogan Soldier?  I'd like to see that video.

I play on Xbox360, how do you suggest I record a video?

Not familiar with how to do it i believe you need something called a video capture card.  or just use a video camera

Or you can just take some pics with a camera of the scoreboard and a few during the match(of wave 10 soloing the objective is the most important pic)

I won't care if it's crappy quality. 

[GodlessPaladin]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...
Stopped reading there.

Pics or it didn't happen.

I've said it before:  As soon as someone suggests a viable way for me to actually provide video evidence, I will do so.  I play on Xbox 360 and thus I can't just use FRAPS or something.

I've soloed gold under the following conditions:
-Asari Adept v. Cerberus and Reapers
-Human Soldier v. Cerberus
-Krogan Soldier v. Cerberus
-Salarian Engineer v. Geth
-Salarian Infiltrator v. Geth and Cerberus
-Quarian Infiltrator v. Geth
-Human Sentinel v. Reapers
-Asari Vanguard v. Cerberus
-Human Vangaurd v. Everything

I felt that the soldier runs were BY FAR the most difficult, and took me a few tries (getting the wrong objectives could make it nearly impossible).

I used a Geth Plasma Shotgun X for every one of those classes except the Human Vanguard, Asari Adept, Asari Vanguard, and Infiltrators.  The Infiltrators used Black Widows and the Vanguards used Carnifexes.  The Asari Adept used a Carnifex against Cerberus and a GPS X against Reapers.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 07 avril 2012 - 08:01 .

[Mysterious Stranger 0.0]

Varthun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

With enough skill he can do both. 

And with enough skill, a Turian Sentinel with detonations can trump a Salarian Infiltrator. 

Nope.

[Atheosis]

Varthun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Varthun wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

Like I said before, my tier list is based on two criteria.

1. Overall Effectiveness (which includes personal opinion, chance of success, value to team, ease of use, etc...)

2. Score Potential

Engineers are a good class, no doubt, but they are mid tier primarily because of their score potential. They will not outscore an equivalently skilled player whos using a class from the higher tiers except in rare situations.

Understandable, but questionable.

Example: An infiltrator will outscore an engineer. Of course.
However, which is greater? An infiltrator scoring 80k over 7 waves because you wiped, or an Infiltrator that scored 130k+ because one of the "support classes" kept the match alive longer? I would re-evaluate the value of support classes. Especially ones with mass CC.

The problem with that example though is the Infilly really dosen't benefit from support classes. A decoy drawing fire dosen't relaly help a class who can avoid the fire easily without it. 

His utility with cloak makes him near invincible and able to kite around the map as long as needed without getting killed. The Salarian infilly especially since any time hes in danger he can simply activate shield drain and recharge his shields. 

Excepting a hacking wave where he has managed to stay alive, but still loses because he runs out of time.

Every class benefits from mob control. Actually, any game benefits from controlling your opponent but that's another idea altogether.

No, no.  Because a really good player can potentially solo a match on Gold over the span of several hours (and we never see all the failed attempts on video do we?), he doesn't need any support.  He's just that L33T.

[Sabresandiego]

Nobody said you dont need CC. You just dont really need an engineer drone/decoy on a team that has some type of other tank like a human vanguard. Engineers are a good class, the only place they really lack is in score potential and they really arent that far behind. Are they on par with infiltrators, vanguards, and adepts? Close, but no.

[Varthun]

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

Varthun wrote...

Mysterious Stranger 0.0 wrote...

With enough skill he can do both. 

And with enough skill, a Turian Sentinel with detonations can trump a Salarian Infiltrator. 

Nope.

Providing no evidence to the contrary is sloppy argumentation.

Also: Killing two waves of Husk/Cannibals/Marauders is roughly 3k points. Killing a Banshee is ~2.3k assuming you solo it. A detonating Sentinel can wipe out those two waves in the same time it takes an Infiltrator to kill that Banshee.