184 réponses à ce sujet

[Nassegris]

I think the adoration some of us had for Bioware can only be equalled to the disappointment we feel now.

This is a great post. I have sung Bioware’s praises for years. I’ve even bought copies of games for friends that couldn’t afford them. I dragged an entire guild into Star Wars: The Old Republic, convinced it would be the best of all games. I’ve written many, happy, cheerful reviews, sent links, shared stories, done my best to encourage my friends to buy their products.

The last month or so I’ve felt the need to apologise to quite a few people for getting them into Mass Effect, as they all ended up calling me and jokingly blaming me for ever luring them into the series.

I can’t see myself ever recommending the games to anyone. I’ve gone from being an advocate and admirer to feeling numb and distrustful.

Maybe some day, Bioware will come out with a new, awesome game, and someone else can recommend it to me. Maybe, maybe, if I know them well enough and trust their taste, I’ll trust them and I’ll try again – but no more blindly leaping off a cliff towards every new release.

I don’t want it to be this way I want to be back in that happy, innocent state, because I loved praising them to the skies.

Modifié par Nassegris, 07 avril 2012 - 11:05 .

[clarkusdarkus]

ftl bump, as come on ppl need to read this

[Kayawyn4]

Great post! I was definitely an advocate category. I'm not a Bioware-hater yet but I am disappointed with them.

[Stealthy Cake]

Cookie for OP

[Batviper]

Baronesa wrote...

Great post and great information...

I think I was on the evangelist side...


I brought many people into contact with Bioware, I was always praising their games and recommending them... I was talking about ME3 for over a YEAR with other people telling them how awesome it would be.

I own Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 (with expansions, recently got the GoG versions due to really old discs no longer playing cinematic properly and having more and more problems installing them), KOTOR (even bought the steam version after a couple of my discs died), Jade's Empire, NWN and all expansions, Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and all the DLC, Dragon Age and all the DLC and Awakening, DA2 and all DLC... (yes it was subpar, but still generally middle ground-good) and finally ME3...

Part of me still wish/hope for Bioware to make things right... but I'm probably another lost customers... the reality of it is... I don't feel like the old RPG crowd is the target for the company anymore... and that is a great loss.

I started feeling the same way ever since ME2, now after ME3 I know for a fact that us RPG fans are no longer their target.They are slowly crippling the RPG aspects of their games, if they continue like this in about 1-2 years their games will not be categorized as RPG games anymore.

Modifié par Batviper, 07 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[goose2989]

Nice points. Let's hope Bioware really doesn't underestimate the impact of trying to let this Ending Debacle blow over.

[Phaedros]

McAllyster wrote...


When Bioware / EA calls Retake movement "entitled" fans... a whiny group of people... well... They are alienating their "evangelist" group. These people talked about Mass Effect (or Dragon Age). These people talk about these games on Facebook, these people recommended these game to their friends, wrote blogposts, commented the news on gaming sites, etc. When they calls their fans "entitled", they saying: "We don't need you, or your opinion, we need just your money." When they saying "artistic integrity", they calls their evangelists a group of stupid people who doesn't understand their vision.

Bad message, very bad message.

QFT

Another excellent post OP.

Thank you 

[McAllyster]

Stealthy Cake wrote...

Cookie for OP

Green, blue or red?

[Wolfen919]

McAllyster wrote...
....

I read it all, but it is stuff that I pretty much knew already. However, these are very good points and a good read for those that are interested. This is exactly why I think Bioware will be feeling the hurt for this once this all "blows over". Of course, Bioware isn't quite finished. Based on the quality of EC dlc, we will see how many more fans they lose over this issue.

In my honest opinion, issues like these should be fixed/addressed promptly. Bioware merely added fuel to the fire. 

edit: Also, in addition to what the OP said, it is a VERY bad idea to dismiss their claims, and/or lie to them, and/or withhold an apology when it is needed.

Modifié par Wolfen919, 07 avril 2012 - 11:24 .

[pjotroos]

This had me wondering, Thanks for the confirmation that alienating your core player base ("evangelists" and "advocats" are handy terms, nice to learn them ) is indeed not the wisest strategy they could choose.

[Someguyukno]

McAllyster wrote...

 
atghunter had some great analysis about the situation from PR point of view. I'd like to extend this discussion.
I'm an online marketing specalist - the "science" behind online marketing is the same, tools maybe different. I'd like to talk about the customers.

Customers are not the same. [Shockingly new revelation, I know. ] But we can categorize customers. We can identify some grops. There is a thing called "customer ladder". (BSN is not a PR board so I'll heavily simplify it. If you are a marketing specialist please forgive me this simplification. And sorry for my English.)
On the first stage the customer is a "suspect". (S)he is a potential customer - somebody who might buy your product. 

Another stage is a "first time customer" - who already bought something from you. 

One of the most important stage is the "repeat customer". The people who bought something from you more times. This customer is not loyal but has good experience about the company. However this customer can easily leave your company and try another competitor.

A "loyal customer" has a strong, ongoing relationship with your company. This customer prefers your goods/services. 

"Advocates" are "loyal customers", but have more important role: these are the people who will recommend your your company, your goods, your services. These are the people who suggests their favourite restaurants if you are ask them. These are the people who creates free advertising for your company.

"Evangelists" are most passionate "advocates". The most reliable examples are the Apple-fans. These are the people who are the most loyal fans of a company. They can't stop talking about your company or products. They will protect you if somebody says something negative about you. These people are walking advertisements - and they believe in your company. They talk about you in a very deep, passionate way. An advertisement in TV, a banner on the internet good be very good, very effective - but the most effective advertisement is an "evangelist".
Nowadays "evangelists" are more important than ever. The customers are online. They are looking for products, services on the internet. They are reading blogs, forums, ask their friends opinion on Facebook and Twitter. An "evangelist" is more than eager to talk about his experience - so they are online too. The "evangelist" will talk about his/her iPhone before you ask his/her opinion about smartphones.

A modern, big company's most important goal (from marketing point of view) is to "create" more and more "evangelists". To find new customers and converge them to "advocate" or "evangelist"-level.

When Bioware / EA calls Retake movement "entitled" fans... a whiny group of people... well... They are alienating their "evangelist" group. These people talked about Mass Effect (or Dragon Age). These people talk about these games on Facebook, these people recommended these game to their friends, wrote blogposts, commented the news on gaming sites, etc. When they calls their fans "entitled", they saying: "We don't need you, or your opinion, we need just your money." When they saying "artistic integrity", they calls their evangelists a group of stupid people who doesn't understand their vision.

Bad message, very bad message.

"First time" customers can be easily replaced. "Loyal customers" needs more time but they are replaceble too. "Advocates" are much harder. To replace "evangelists" you need much more time - you have to wait a new generation of customers. Lose "evangelists" is a huge lost in marketing assets. You can buy more time on TV. You can buy more banners on the internet. But you can't "buy" new evangelists.
Imagine this:
Apple launch the iPhone 7. This is a great product: much better GUI, much better display - everything is better. But you can't change ringtones. Apple inserted 3 default ringtones. You can choose between 3 ringtones and you can't change it. "Retake my ringtone!"-movement starts. Apple is in shock: "We don't understand... we give you better display, GUI, etc... why do you need alternate ringtones? These ringtones are beautiful! A true piece of art!". However core fanbase demands an application because they don't like the default 3 ringtones. "No! iPhone 7 is perfect. Artistic integrity! End of the line! But because we listening, we create a free patch. We won't offer more ringtones but you can download a longer version of the 3 default ringtones!". 

In the meantime Apple calls the "Retake my ringtone!"-movement a group of entitled fans. They going to a conference but they don't want to answer the ringtone questions. 

I think a similar scenario should be a huge backfire. Apple evangelists should turn into Apple-haters. But I think Apple is smarter than that.

IMHO Bioware was an Apple-like company in the field of RPG videogaming. They could sell 2 million copies of Mass Effect 3 within a few weeks. They had more than 1 million customers on the first month of SWTOR. They had legions of "evangelists" around the globe.

And they choose the short-term gain. They choose to ****** off their "advocates" and "evangelists". 
In short-term they won. ME3 probably is one of their most succesful games financially. They will spend some more money to extended ending - but not much. I think most of the "new" content is not new at all. Some cut cinematics - I suppose they have tons of unused audio, etc. They have to publish the MP DLC for free - but I think they have more than enough customers who are paying for Veteran / Spectre packs so this is not a huge loss.
They can win the PR-fight too. Lazy journalists, servile gaming media, PR-tactics...

But they lost their "advocate" and "evangelists"-level customers. Not all of them but many of them. Bioware / EA will miss these customers when they will publish the next big SWTOR expansion; DAO3; C&C; and they will really-really miss these customers when they create a new IP. Or new Mass Effect game. 

A disappointed customer is a problem. But a disappointed "evangelist" is a nightmare. The line between hate and love is very slight. A disappointed "evangelist" probably will be a hater. Who will talk about your company with the same passion before - but in the negative way.

That's the scale. That is the true, big problem for Bioware / EA. They can try damage control PR tactics - but the damage is done. And they are not fixing it - they doing more damage. 

Edit: some formatting

Dear god, I salute you good sir. Thank you for taking the time to explain this to us.

[GBJ13]

Nassegris wrote...

I think the adoration some of us had for Bioware can only be equalled to the disappointment we feel now.

This is a great post. I have sung Bioware’s praises for years. I’ve even bought copies of games for friends that couldn’t afford them. I dragged an entire guild into Star Wars: The Old Republic, convinced it would be the best of all games. I’ve written many, happy, cheerful reviews, sent links, shared stories, done my best to encourage my friends to buy their products.

The last month or so I’ve felt the need to apologise to quite a few people for getting them into Mass Effect, as they all ended up calling me and jokingly blaming me for ever luring them into the series.

I can’t see myself ever recommending the games to anyone. I’ve gone from being an advocate and admirer to feeling numb and distrustful.

Maybe some day, Bioware will come out with a new, awesome game, and someone else can recommend it to me. Maybe, maybe, if I know them well enough and trust their taste, I’ll trust them and I’ll try again – but no more blindly leaping off a cliff towards every new release.

I don’t want it to be this way I want to be back in that happy, innocent state, because I loved praising them to the skies.

That's pretty similar to my story.  I talked people into buying ME3 and DA2.   My friends are ribbing me like I recommended "From Justin to Kelly."

[CronoDragoon]

Yeah, I used to openly advocate Bioware as a company, not just their games.

"Is X gonna be good?"
"It's Bioware, dude."

Sort of like how HBO has become a brand that guarantees quality regardless of the individual product. Is it still this way with Bioware? I don't know. It's too early to tell.

[Hexley UK]

GBJ13 wrote...

Nassegris wrote...

I think the adoration some of us had for Bioware can only be equalled to the disappointment we feel now.

This is a great post. I have sung Bioware’s praises for years. I’ve even bought copies of games for friends that couldn’t afford them. I dragged an entire guild into Star Wars: The Old Republic, convinced it would be the best of all games. I’ve written many, happy, cheerful reviews, sent links, shared stories, done my best to encourage my friends to buy their products.

The last month or so I’ve felt the need to apologise to quite a few people for getting them into Mass Effect, as they all ended up calling me and jokingly blaming me for ever luring them into the series.

I can’t see myself ever recommending the games to anyone. I’ve gone from being an advocate and admirer to feeling numb and distrustful.

Maybe some day, Bioware will come out with a new, awesome game, and someone else can recommend it to me. Maybe, maybe, if I know them well enough and trust their taste, I’ll trust them and I’ll try again – but no more blindly leaping off a cliff towards every new release.

I don’t want it to be this way I want to be back in that happy, innocent state, because I loved praising them to the skies.

That's pretty similar to my story.  I talked people into buying ME3 and DA2.   My friends are ribbing me like I recommended "From Justin to Kelly."

LOL same it's getting so bad I might as well have recommended Twilight to them the way they're going on about it.

You hear me Bioware! Twilight is better than your ending to ME3.....yea I went there....deal with it.

[Baronesa]

CronoDragoon wrote...
"Is X gonna be good?"
"It's Bioware, dude."

Thos ehav ebeen my words on many occasions before 

It is BioWare... of course it will be good...



It hurts

[DnVill]

Pretty much the same with me.... I used to talk friends into buying ME before buying ME2 so that they'll understand what Cerberus was. After the ending I havn't talked about Mass Effect to anyone unless they ask me first whether its good or not which I always respond to "The ending doesn't make sense". It's enough to discourage them from buying. I'm sure Bioware will realize this once their next "perfect review" game comes out and they'll see a susbstantial decrease in sales.



Now I'm ashamed to call myself a Bioware fan.


I used to be conflicted because I loved Bioware but I hated EA. Now it's easier to hate both at the same time.

Modifié par DnVill, 07 avril 2012 - 11:41 .

[Grusome11]

Great post. Thanks.

[JadedLibertine]

Excellent piece OP. Among the unceasing circular arguments and neverending tepid flame wars there are some really intelligent and incisive posts here.

Since KOTOR I've been a BioWare zealot until those last 5 minutes of ME3. I now despise the entire game simply because it exists.

[The Charnel Expanse]

Great stuff. Should be stickied.

[Beldamon]

Wonderful analysis! I was definitely in the advocate/evangelist band, but am poised to be on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Still hoping against hope that BioWare can pull some kind of miracle out of its a**, but as some people have eloquently stated, polishing a turd does not make it any less a turd.

[ahandsomeshark]

Agreed with this, and choosing the short-term gain has been an issue at EA, and all publicly traded companies, for a while now. It's all going to come crashing down soon, or crashing down again rather.

[ahandsomeshark]

Nassegris wrote...

I think the adoration some of us had for Bioware can only be equalled to the disappointment we feel now.

this. it's really depressing to watch something I loved as much as Bioware being torn down in slow motiion. Even with the extended cut the whole multiplayer DLC has pretty much cemented the fact, for me, that Bioware is no longer focused on bringing immersive boundary pushing SP games.

[ahandsomeshark]

Beldamon wrote...

Wonderful analysis! I was definitely in the advocate/evangelist band, but am poised to be on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Still hoping against hope that BioWare can pull some kind of miracle out of its a**, but as some people have eloquently stated, polishing a turd does not make it any less a turd.

to me the issue isn't even the ending in itself (well that's a big issue) but it could have been fixed. The issue now is everything they've done since has pretty much proven they're an entirely different company from the one that made KOTOR (I've actually started replaying KOTOR a few days ago and its downright depressing to think what Bioware could do if they had those same ambitions with the technology and experience they have now. But instead we get an absurdly streamlined combat heavy dialogue/decision/immersion/exploration lacking ME3 and then their big announcement is multiplayer maps. 

So basically I'll just be saving my money until another company picks up the torch.

[schneeland]

nice read - diving deeper into the analysis of atghunter now

[Reorte]

Where are the people in EA and BW who know this stuff? There must be people there who do, and they're in business to make money. Very little about this whole thing makes sense to me. I can believe the wrong individual(s) with too much influence got the game out of the door but not how it's been handled since. Surely someone holding the pursestrings has seen the cost of this?