184 réponses à ce sujet

[Aesieru]

There is another line of customer actually.

It's the ones who don't just buy your product, but actually invest with you.

Potentially they're losing those too.

---

If you look at their stock you'll see that leading up to The Old Republic launch they were around 25 - 26 dollars per stock share. After the TOR release they logically went down to about 20 during this unknown period of time for an MMO release and when the community started bad mouthing it and not liking it and the customer service was failing and the game turned out to not be what was said their stock stayed at that level and then steadily declined. Then comes March with the release of Mass Effect 3 and the stock increases a few dollars at first, and then with the backlash it continues steadily down but at a slower pace than what happend with TOR.

It went from 25-26 to 14-16 dollars instead.

Someone has to notice that.

Modifié par Aesieru, 09 avril 2012 - 03:43 .

[MerinTB]

As an at least former "advocate" of BioWare, I'll attest to my move to the "repeat customer level" at best.

Great post, OP.

[Deaddude221]

Very well written and great because it is from a business position as opposed to emotional ones popping up; certainly the emotional replies are good because it shows the communities passion but the only way to talk to a company is with business talk. I sincerely hope that someone within the company reads this and starts bringing this up ... Although I have to wonder that since EA now owns BW and is a huge company how did they not realize this conclusion themselves? Or on the cynical side it could be that they believe that the fan base is so easily manipulated that we all shall stay evangelists.

[FataliTensei]

Great post OP

[Yougottawanna]

Very good post OP

It's always tempting to lay the blame for everything at the feet of EA... so I'm gonna do that. I suspect that Bioware is following EA's playbook when it comes to marketing and public relations. And since EA is a big company, and big companies are slow to respond to changes in the marketplace and in the world, it wouldn't surprise me if their marketing/PR playbooks were 10-15 years behind the times.

You see them using transparent deflections and distractions in a futile attempt to control the online dialogue, and you get the sense that their marketing strategy is one they pulled out of a time capsule from 1998 or something.

[Ilzairspar]

MerinTB wrote...

As an at least former "advocate" of BioWare, I'll attest to my move to the "repeat customer level" at best.

Great post, OP.

Me too.  I'm really hoping that Weeks and Co. can pull a rabbit out of their hat with this "clarity" they are trying to write.

I wonder how many of them are now cursing Casey just as much ase we are for writing the ending?

[Swordfishtrombone]

Very good post OP.

BGII made me an instant Bioware evangelist - I was talking about them to all my friends, and actively advocating the company. NWN1's SP campaign was disappointing, but I completely believed that Bioware had the potential to bring us the same quality they'd done with BG2, and continued to root for them. DA:O, finally, seemed to capture that "something" that BG2 had, and was a shot in the arm in my fandom.

ME1 was great, and ME2 was very good as well.

DA2 was... OK, though clearly rushed, and nowhere near the quality of DA:O. Bioware had already made some pretty bad PR decisions and their involvement with EA seemed to show in some rather grubby practices, but I was still a loyal customer here.

ME3 was very good, with only relatively minor gripes, up until the last 5-10 minutes of the game... which constituted the worst piece of writing that has ever come out of Bioware. The green ending, especially, was an insult to any scifi fan, who thought they were playing a game set in a scifi universe, not a fantasy universe.

Their responses to the outcry that resulted from this horrible piece of writing that was an ill-fit to the story that came before, started out belitling the dissatisfied customers, then telling us they were listening, and consequently ignoring the main complaints, saying that the endings stay as they are, and that they'll only answer the "lack closure" complaints by extending the existing endings.

I am now, at most, a repeat customer, and eying around for another game producer that might have that "something" that Bioware has captured in some of their past games. I find this very sad. I'd love nothing more than to be loyal customer - and even an evangelist - again, but the way things stand, I think it would take Bioware breaking away from EA and their practices for that to happen.

[McAllyster]

Aesieru wrote...

There is another line of customer actually.

It's the ones who don't just buy your product, but actually invest with you.

Potentially they're losing those too.

---

If you look at their stock you'll see that leading up to The Old Republic launch they were around 25 - 26 dollars per stock share. After the TOR release they logically went down to about 20 during this unknown period of time for an MMO release and when the community started bad mouthing it and not liking it and the customer service was failing and the game turned out to not be what was said their stock stayed at that level and then steadily declined. Then comes March with the release of Mass Effect 3 and the stock increases a few dollars at first, and then with the backlash it continues steadily down but at a slower pace than what happend with TOR.

It went from 25-26 to 14-16 dollars instead.

Someone has to notice that.

You have to communicate to business people (~investors) also. But B2B (business-to-business) communication is a little bit different than B2C (business-to-customer) communication. Of course it's different because business people have different needs.

I think the current campaign fits better to B2B. The investors will easily accept the "whiny, loud, minor group" answer; and they will accept the cost of a free ending DLC. Business people are not stupid or evil: they aware of the problems of a company and they eager to invest a small amount of money if it saves the investment. They are just doesn't understand the gamers, they  simply doesn't understand the power of immersion of a game.

However these people will see very clearly when this solution falls. They will see the numbers: they will see the incomes of actual games, microtransactions, etc. Numbers are not lying.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Have a look here: Why most people don't finish video games.

So far BW can do what they want, because I think they feel that only a very small part of their customers is effected. Why? About a decade ago 1 in 5 people finished video games. These days that number became even less and only 1 in 10 people finished video games. So, if only a part of those are not satisfied about the ending then it doesn't require fixing it. I think that all ME advocates and evangelists finish the ending of ME3. So, it would be smart if BW changed their attitude. But there is also the problem of the stockholders and upper management, I think. It looks like BW is afraid to fix the ending, because somehow it will send a bad message to the stockholders and upper management.

Look at when CDPR failed miserably with TW1 and how they solved the problem. Instead of hiding it or walking away they simply faced it. They not only fixed the bugs, they also created an extended version which was a complete overhaul that included everything from voice acting to game mechanics. They made sure that registered users got that version for free. That caused the customers to respect them again. Without that I doubt TW2 would be a success. Unlike BW, CDPR is after long term customer satisfaction. And that shows. Even if you dislike their products, one cannot deny they take their customers seriously.

A lot of people who see a problem with the ME3 ending describe the problem incorrectly. It is not that the ending required clarification or not mainly that they wanted more closure. The main problem is that the 3 final options are a solution to a non-existing problem. I think most people have already solved the war between synthetics and organics. The quarians and the geth plus Joker and EDI already live happily ever after.

In the last couple of minutes Star Child drops from thin air and forces you to select a solution for an imaginary problem: The war between synthetics and organics. No matter which one Shepard opts for he or she never wins. At best Shepard can destroy the reapers, but that will exterminate the geth and EDI and maybe costs Shepard's own live. In the control and synthesis options the reapers are not punished for their countless genocides and Shepard can either become a god-like reaper dictator or a string of DNA that automagically spreads synthetic/organic love throughout the galaxy. And in both of them Shepard dies or loses the ability to continue normal life. He or she never gets the girl or boy. Shepard is forced into a solution for a problem that doesn't need one and where there is no advantage to be gained.

So, clarification about the 3 final options is not going to work, because no amount of clarification can make nonsense work. The only option BW has is to add one more real solution that works in the case that there is already peace between synthetics and organics. And of course it would be nice to get closure about what happens after the end, but people would be less annoyed if the ending fitted in the long line of decisions they've already made in ME1, ME2 and ME3. The total disconnection of the series to the ending is what people like me truly dislike.

I was an advocate. At least I think I am still a loyal fan, but I see BW's hegemony fall for all kinds of reasons. This is not the place to go into that, but the ending fits in the negative image that, in my eyes, BW has got itself into these days. The only thing I want is for BW to properly fix the ending, because not only will it fix the enjoyment of the last minutes, it will also fix the enjoyment of the entire series. Clarification and closure is duct tape that is not going to work if BW sticks to the 3 final options as a solution for a non-existent problem.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 avril 2012 - 05:58 .

[McAllyster]

MissNet wrote...

This is most intelligent, thoughtful and polite way to tell bEAware they sucks.
I was crazy kind of fan, I introduced dozen of my friends to playing bioware games. And now I quickly move to "hate with passion" stage.

I don't want to tell such a thing.

I think they have enough good marketers who are aware of the problem.

Number #1 intention: share my knowledge with the group of "entitled" fans, and tell them: they shouldn't accept this name because it is not true. However they should know their own roles in this business - and this is a very important role.

Number #2: while I think EA is aware of problem... maybe not a bad idea to give them a similar feedback.

Really, honestly... I want good, old Bioware back. I want the same level of quality, immersion, etc. like the ending of the genophage-storyline. I want an ending which has similar quality than rest of the game. When Mordin or Thane finished his journey - I had to take a small break. It was sooooo beautiful moment - I couldn't play more without a break. I had to leave my PC, take a walk, smoke a cigarette and clear my head. 

I don't want to tell EA: "You are sucks!". I want the opposite: I want to tell Bioware: "Your are the greatest masters of videogaming. I want more games!". 

Every crisis is an opportunity too. If Bioware can learn from this crisis and find a good solution they will be stronger after that. I want them to learn and be stronger. But to find a good solution they have to listen to their evangelists. So... hold the line!

[Dragoonlordz]

Aesieru wrote...

If you look at their stock you'll see that leading up to The Old Republic launch they were around 25 - 26 dollars per stock share. After the TOR release they logically went down to about 20 during this unknown period of time for an MMO release and when the community started bad mouthing it and not liking it and the customer service was failing and the game turned out to not be what was said their stock stayed at that level and then steadily declined. Then comes March with the release of Mass Effect 3 and the stock increases a few dollars at first, and then with the backlash it continues steadily down but at a slower pace than what happend with TOR.

It went from 25-26 to 14-16 dollars instead.

Someone has to notice that.

You were right upto the point (about stock aspect), until said ME3 bad mouthing caused it to drop.

It was not the case, ME3 bad mouthing had little to no effect. Once it was released it increased stock value, it stayed at around the increased level for a while *until* PGA12 special edition came out and only then did it start dropping again.

The drop had nothing to do with ME3 bad mouthing, it had everything to do with a separate different title coming out.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 avril 2012 - 05:48 .

[Yorkston9152]

/agree with op. Sadly, with the whole Bioware/EA stocks, it wont be in till the next large release that we get to see if this bad mouthing has really done damage. I dont mean stuff like madden because more then a few people who play sports games avoid stuff like ME, but when the next shooter/RPG comes out. At that time it will be seen if the damage of telling die hard and loving fans to "F off if you dont like what we did. Btw keep sending us feed back!" has put a hole in the EA money ship or if it was just a little boat rocking before calmer seas.

[Yougottawanna]

McAllyster wrote...

MissNet wrote...

This is most intelligent, thoughtful and polite way to tell bEAware they sucks.
I was crazy kind of fan, I introduced dozen of my friends to playing bioware games. And now I quickly move to "hate with passion" stage.

I don't want to tell such a thing.

I think they have enough good marketers who are aware of the problem.

Number #1 intention: share my knowledge with the group of "entitled" fans, and tell them: they shouldn't accept this name because it is not true. However they should know their own roles in this business - and this is a very important role.

Number #2: while I think EA is aware of problem... maybe not a bad idea to give them a similar feedback.

Really, honestly... I want good, old Bioware back. I want the same level of quality, immersion, etc. like the ending of the genophage-storyline. I want an ending which has similar quality than rest of the game. When Mordin or Thane finished his journey - I had to take a small break. It was sooooo beautiful moment - I couldn't play more without a break. I had to leave my PC, take a walk, smoke a cigarette and clear my head. 

I don't want to tell EA: "You are sucks!". I want the opposite: I want to tell Bioware: "Your are the greatest masters of videogaming. I want more games!". 

Every crisis is an opportunity too. If Bioware can learn from this crisis and find a good solution they will be stronger after that. I want them to learn and be stronger. But to find a good solution they have to listen to their evangelists. So... hold the line!

I feel a similar way... not quite so forgiving of Bioware as you at this point, but I still want them to turn things around.

[soulprovider]

I temporarily halted my EA boycott and even justified getting the game for a console over this and this is how they treat me, I even convinced my friends who don't like rpgs to play the series and this is how you treat me well bioware so be it but know this, your losing 180 dollars per game you release, EA is losing a lot more per game release from me, they can never get me back, you can never get me back. I'm willing to buy used and forgo internet connection if I have to(since EA and activision are buying up all the talent) but you will never see a dime from me.

[Riion]

This was actually a very interesting read. I used to be an "evangelist" (got three or four of my friends to start the ME series), but now I'm advocating a bit more caution...

[twystedspyder]

Faith is powerful stuff. I actually felt that emotional shift after Mass Effect 3.

[mumwaldee369]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Have a look here: Why most people don't finish video games.

So far BW can do what they want, because I think they feel that only a very small part of their customers is effected. Why? About a decade ago 1 in 5 people finished video games. These days that number became even less and only 1 in 10 people finished video games. So, if only a part of those are not satisfied about the ending then it doesn't require fixing it. I think that all ME advocates and evangelists finish the ending of ME3. So, it would be smart if BW changed their attitude. But there is also the problem of the stockholders and upper management, I think. It looks like BW is afraid to fix the ending, because somehow it will send a bad message to the stockholders and upper management.

Look at when CDPR failed miserably with TW1 and how they solved the problem. Instead of hiding it or walking away they simply faced it. They not only fixed the bugs, they also created an extended version which was a complete overhaul that included everything from voice acting to game mechanics. They made sure that registered users got that version for free. That caused the customers to respect them again. Without that I doubt TW2 would be a success. Unlike BW, CDPR is after long term customer satisfaction. And that shows. Even if you dislike their products, one cannot deny they take their customers seriously.

A lot of people who see a problem with the ME3 ending describe the problem incorrectly. It is not that the ending required clarification or not mainly that they wanted more closure. The main problem is that the 3 final options are a solution to a non-existing problem. I think most people have already solved the war between synthetics and organics. The quarians and the geth plus Joker and EDI already live happily ever after.

In the last couple of minutes Star Child drops from thin air and forces you to select a solution for an imaginary problem: The war between synthetics and organics. No matter which one Shepard opts for he or she never wins. At best Shepard can destroy the reapers, but that will exterminate the geth and EDI and maybe costs Shepard's own live. In the control and synthesis options the reapers are not punished for their countless genocides and Shepard can either become a god-like reaper dictator or a string of DNA that automagically spreads synthetic/organic love throughout the galaxy. And in both of them Shepard dies or loses the ability to continue normal life. He or she never gets the girl or boy. Shepard is forced into a solution for a problem that doesn't need one and where there is no advantage to be gained.

So, clarification about the 3 final options is not going to work, because no amount of clarification can make nonsense work. The only option BW has is to add one more real solution that works in the case that there is already peace between synthetics and organics. And of course it would be nice to get closure about what happens after the end, but people would be less annoyed if the ending fitted in the long line of decisions they've already made in ME1, ME2 and ME3. The total disconnection of the series to the ending is what people like me truly dislike.

I was an advocate. At least I think I am still a loyal fan, but I see BW's hegemony fall for all kinds of reasons. This is not the place to go into that, but the ending fits in the negative image that, in my eyes, BW has got itself into these days. The only thing I want is for BW to properly fix the ending, because not only will it fix the enjoyment of the last minutes, it will also fix the enjoyment of the entire series. Clarification and closure is duct tape that is not going to work if BW sticks to the 3 final options as a solution for a non-existent problem.

Very interesting article you linked.  Average gamer age is now 37.  Far cry from the spoiled entitled brats they paint us as.  Maybe EA just thought we wouldn't finish the game to see their craptastic ending.  They gambled and lost.

[lachdelkar]

bump. great read, thanks OP

[incinerator950]

Glad we're not discussing Games Workshop, or even better, Bank of America, or BP, or even Black Water a few years ago.

Yep, lets talk about how evil EA is guys.

[mumwaldee369]

incinerator950 wrote...

Glad we're not discussing Games Workshop, or even better, Bank of America, or BP, or even Black Water a few years ago.

Yep, lets talk about how evil EA is guys.

Those topics would be locked here.  Dufus.

[EugeneBi]

McAllyster wrote...

...

Honestly, I can't really understand gamer media as well. Especially IGN who was the flagship of this "whiner"-argument. They are alienating their own readerbase too with this type of argument. In a perfect world (I know our world is not perfect) a gamer magazine should have one responsibility: commitment to the reader, the customer.

Elementary Watson. Just think: who is paying the money? Internet magazines are free for subscribers...

[DocJill]

McAllyster wrote...


Really, honestly... I want good, old Bioware back. I want the same level of quality, immersion, etc. like the ending of the genophage-storyline. I want an ending which has similar quality than rest of the game. When Mordin or Thane finished his journey - I had to take a small break. It was sooooo beautiful moment - I couldn't play more without a break. I had to leave my PC, take a walk, smoke a cigarette and clear my head. 

I don't want to tell EA: "You are sucks!". I want the opposite: I want to tell Bioware: "Your are the greatest masters of videogaming. I want more games!". 

Every crisis is an opportunity too. If Bioware can learn from this crisis and find a good solution they will be stronger after that. I want them to learn and be stronger. But to find a good solution they have to listen to their evangelists. So... hold the line!

Well said.  I know they still have it in them because a lot of ME3 was stellar. 

It is amazing that Bioware's evangelical customers provided the solution to the ending crisis via indoc theory.  I find the situation fascinating.  It's why I check the boards every day, instead of playing ME3 of course. 

I guess I used to be an advocate.  I would even tell people that haven't played vidoe games in years to go buy and Xbox just so they could play Mass Effect.  I still hope this situation can be resolved. 

[Oldbones2]

I think I was somewhere between Advocate and evangelist before ME 3.  As I played the game, I became a true Evangelist.  (wouldn't shut up about it to everyone I talked to during those 3 glorious days.) then the ending hit.

And honestly it didn't turn me against Bioware.  I admit it made me sad and kicked me back to advocate.  But I still had every intention of buy DA 3.

Then the PR campaign of stall, deny, deflect, ignore, lie, obscure, discredit and false compromise hit.

So in short the ending didn't turn me into a hater, but Bioware's treatment of its fans sure as hell did.

Modifié par Oldbones2, 09 avril 2012 - 11:20 .

[Trentgamer]

Good post. I think BioWare has definitely pissed off their 'Evangelists'. They may not care right now basking in the $$$$ from ME 3..but they will. Probably even sooner than their next game..probably when they try to sell us paid DLC for ME 3 after not fixing, but only expanding and 'clarifying' the broken ending.