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The real tragedy is that Hudson and Walters forgot what the game is about


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#51
Doctor_Jackstraw

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The Charnel Expanse wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Uniting everyone was the theme of ME2 and ME3, it wasnt the theme of ME1. the theme of ME1 was going off on your own to uncover a mystery.

did people just forget about mass effect 1? did they really? @_@

I certainly didn't. In fact, I played through it just last week to see if there were any hints as to what was coming. But all the hints pointed to the central theme being cooperation and conflict resolution for the greater good. They hadn't fully crystalized yet at that point, because the threat facing the galaxy was only being introduced. But all the subtext was there in abundance - right down to the fact that you took the role of a lone soldier who assembles a ragtag bunch of misfits, each with his/her own agenda, to go up against a rogue spectre who thinks he alone knows what's in the galaxy's best interests.


So basically you're assuming and drawing conjecture without paying attention to what was actually going on with each character?  I guess according to your logic every RPG where you form a party is about Uniting the world against a common threat.  ME2 was about Unity, ME1 was not (hell you can wind up with one team member SHOOTING another team member in the back, and then you leave someone to die.  thats not unity thats struggle)

#52
Daedalus1773

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pistolols wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

The theme wasn't wrong, they just twisted it beyond acceptance. Those three ending choices made no sense.


Sorry, but you are wrong.  Replay Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 and then come back to talk to me.  You will see those 3 choices pop out at you in a very surprising way.

See this is the problem.  Nobody was paying attention.


I'd like to ask you - how did you resolve the Geth/Quarian conflict on Rannoch in ME3?

#53
Doctor_Jackstraw

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Zix13 wrote...

pistolols wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

The theme wasn't wrong, they just twisted it beyond acceptance. Those three ending choices made no sense.


Sorry, but you are wrong.  Replay Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 and then come back to talk to me.  You will see those 3 choices pop out at you in a very surprising way.

See this is the problem.  Nobody was paying attention.


The goal of the series was to stop the reapers, not to impose your views on one of the many themes upon everyone in the galaxy. Clearly you missed the defeating the reapers part of the series.


Good thing ME3 is about stopping the reapers.  You can stop them by destroying them, controlling them, or the green ending.

#54
pistolols

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Daedalus1773 wrote...

pistolols wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

The theme wasn't wrong, they just twisted it beyond acceptance. Those three ending choices made no sense.


Sorry, but you are wrong.  Replay Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 and then come back to talk to me.  You will see those 3 choices pop out at you in a very surprising way.

See this is the problem.  Nobody was paying attention.


I'd like to ask you - how did you resolve the Geth/Quarian conflict on Rannoch in ME3?


Tali dies in ME2 for me so it got a little crazy lol.  I don't think uniting them was ever an option for me.  The geth wipe the quarians out.

Modifié par pistolols, 07 avril 2012 - 07:01 .


#55
Averdi

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Up until the end of ME3, the organic vs synthetic relationship has been a subplot to the main story, at best. In that, it's like the issues of morality surrounding the genophage or questions of racial superiority/priority via Ashley and/or Cerberus.

The catalyst could have as easily said that the reapers do their thing because advanced organics always manipulate less advanced organics (e.g. salaraians and krogan), and thus should be removed to allow 'natural' organic evolution. That would have had as much support as the organic vs synthetic rationale, though without the additional irony of the reapers themselves being synthetic.....

#56
UrgentArchengel

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The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Personally i think ME2 messed everyone up made everyone think it was all about the characters which was never my take at all and in fact i found ME2 to be rather tedious dealing with all these characters personal problems that i didn't even care about.

I always knew the heart of this was a conflict of man vs machine. And i loved the way the end tied everything together in the form of an AI behind it all... it was pretty mind blowing to behonest.


The heart of the conflict is that fear of free will, is more dangerous than the free will itself, which the reapers are shown to be a part of.

Even still, the way it was wrapped up isn't nearly satisfying.


This, just look around at everyday life.  We all have free will, but look at what we do with it; war, crime, intolerance, racism, hate, etc.  This is why the Reapers fear free will and why that brat thinks that Synthetic life will rebel against organics because he's probably seen it time and time again in cycles before hand.  Bioware just really dropped the ball on how they wrapped it up.  Well, in my opinion of course.:D

#57
OchreJelly

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pistolols wrote...

Indeed i am definitely open to speculation from everyone regarding it being something else entirely.  But when i compare the starchild to the very first AI we meet on the citadel in ME1... i find i am able to put a lot of the pieces of the puzzle together and better understand the catalyst and it's origins.


But your guess is still just that: a guess, and no more valid than anyone else's hypotheses based on their preferred themes present in the series.

Modifié par OchreJelly, 07 avril 2012 - 07:02 .


#58
Subguy614

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pistolols wrote...

sistersafetypin wrote...

pistolols wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

The theme wasn't wrong, they just twisted it beyond acceptance. Those three ending choices made no sense.


Sorry, but you are wrong.  Replay Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 and then come back to talk to me.  You will see those 3 choices pop out at you in a very surprising way.

See this is the problem.  Nobody was paying attention.


So Tali's single loyalty is all the proof we need? I'm sorry but the one consistent theme from ME1 has always been beating the odds through unity. The end of ME3 is about destroying diversity


No.. there is more.  Legion's loyalty mission... do we rewrite or destory the geth?  Go back even further to ME1 with the credit syphoning AI terminal on the citadel... where the conflict is probably first introduced.  The AI tells us that he knows organics will always control or destroy synthetic lifeforms.  Then just in general all the paranoia over AI's thorughout all 3 games... the end so fits.  The end was an amazing conclusion to these conflicts.


I think you're confusing A theme with THE CENTRAL theme. Certainly organic vs synthetics has to be A theme in a game where advanced organic existance is threatened by synthetic "reapers". The AI on ME1 funneling the credits was a minor sub quest. Tali's loyalty mission was just that one of 12 loyalty missions. Legion's loyalty mission however explores the ethics of brainwashing synthetics vs destrying them, asking if they have rights too.

ME3's Rannoch arc if played well is that synthetics and organics CAN in fact coexist. They can even work together for a common goal (unity). This ties back in with the CENTRAL theme of unity of purpose.

#59
Gill Kaiser

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We opposed the Reapers because of their actions, not because they were synthetic. Hudson and Walters seem to think that their audience is much more prone to racism and patriotism ("Take Back Earth" as opposed to saving the entire galaxy, for example) than we are.

#60
Rob_Nix

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pistolols wrote...

Personally i think ME2 messed everyone up made everyone think it was all about the characters which was never my take at all and in fact i found ME2 to be rather tedious dealing with all these characters personal problems that i didn't even care about.

I always knew the heart of this was a conflict of man vs machine. And i loved the way the end tied everything together in the form of an AI behind it all... it was pretty mind blowing to behonest.


Yeah.. an AI being behind it all has never been done before in sci fi...

UGH.

#61
pjotroos

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Sorry if I repeat after someone - the longer this goes on, the more I believe they actually knew perfectly well what the game is about. All those quotes prior to release that people bring up are good enough evidence. I firmly believe they actually went against everything that the series stood for to make a point - question is, what point were they trying to make, and to whom. Have my theory of course.

#62
sfam

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The Charnel Expanse wrote...

It's pretty clear that in crafting the ending, the two men ostensibly responsible for it completely lost track of what has been the established central theme of the Mass Effect trilogy - the struggle of one wo/man to unite a galaxy against an existential threat and the difficult choices s/he is forced to make in the process. It's a simple theme and one that should not have been difficult to stick with. Instead, when it came time to conclude the series, they took what had been an existing but ultimately ancillary theme in the game universe - the conflict between man and machine [or organics and synthetics, as it were] and decided to wedge that in as the main focus of the series at the very last moment, thus completely upsetting the narrative flow of all three games. 

Now, to be fair, organics versus synthetics WAS a present conflict and not to an insignificant degree. Listening to Saren talk during the first game, you'd think that was the focus of the story from his perspective. But in the second game, it was relegated to a very minor plot element; magnified slightly in the third [specifically during the Rannoch arc] but it was never the main focus of the Mass Effect series, and that should've been abundantly clear to two men who were there for the entire creative process. Saren was never the protagonist of Mass Effect, and for the writers to adopt his warped view of the universe is just baffling.

Why they lost sight of things, I could only speculate. But this thematic disconnect is why any attempt to salvage the existing ending will almost surely fall short of satisfying any serious fans. The Catalyst is not completely irredeemable as an exposition fairy character, but damn close to it, because he represents such a disconnect from what the story is actually about, and in order to fit him into the narrative his entire character would have to be rewritten meticulously, to reflect Shepard's view of the universe. Very difficult to do, given how little precedent there is for his appearance in the first place.



No doubt, and there are more than a few problems with this.


1. We were already given an opportunity to resolve the organic-synthetic conundrum with the Quarian and the Geth.  For most of us, this had literally been resolved to the happy satisfaction of both groups.  But the ending flat out throws that wonderful segment away - why on earth would they do that? 

2. The central focus always was, "Stop the Reapers, Stop the cycle".  Never was the focus with a supreme being who had trouble making decisions when their toys stopped playing well together.  This was both a radical shift in focus with no warning, and worse, was an absurd turn of events.

3. The change in narrative changed Shep from the savior of the Galaxy (or loser, assuming the decisions and actions mattered), to a minor character helping a supreme being figure out the next step for screwing with the playthings in his galaxy.  Talk about completely uninteresting gameplay.  I mean who looked at that and said, "Yeah, they're gonna love this idea!"  

4. As a defense of the ending, we're continually getting a stream statements saying in effect, "The ending is meant to be interpreted" and "We wanted to generate discussions!" (Check on that one!).  But most successful narratives that do this (2001 Space odyssey and the Matrix, for instance), telegraph this action from a mile away.  They don't spring it at the last second when the entire 3 game series, the model was one where "the story unfolds in the moment, usually combined with life or death action." They simply had not set up a wildly interpretive ending - that approach was doomed to fail.

#63
pistolols

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Rob_Nix wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Personally i think ME2 messed everyone up made everyone think it was all about the characters which was never my take at all and in fact i found ME2 to be rather tedious dealing with all these characters personal problems that i didn't even care about.

I always knew the heart of this was a conflict of man vs machine. And i loved the way the end tied everything together in the form of an AI behind it all... it was pretty mind blowing to behonest.


Yeah.. an AI being behind it all has never been done before in sci fi...

UGH.


Yeah.. it really was the I, Robot ending i suppose.  but i liked it.

#64
Doctor_Jackstraw

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SRX wrote...

The star-child AI feels exceptionally out of place.  It felt so odd.  It didn't seem like it was the Mass Effect universe anymore.  Not to mention the numerous and bizzare plotholes that I do not think can be properly rectified.  

And while the man versus machine theme is a major theme to the series, other themes, such uniting races and friendship, are just as important. I don't think they were properly addressed in the games final moments, as it should of been.


I thought the star child made sense because it was set up in the Overlord (ME2) and Geth Concensus (ME3) missions and with Vigil in ME1.  You see the kid because its your brain making sense of what its seeing.  When you witness the distress call in the first area of Illos you are percieving something unique to you based on information your mind possesses, Tali doesnt know what the **** is going on it sounds like gibberish to her.  Vigil doesnt appear in a form to you because you have no reference point for what a prothean looks like so you cant even comprehend their species.

#65
Subguy614

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pjotroos wrote...

Sorry if I repeat after someone - the longer this goes on, the more I believe they actually knew perfectly well what the game is about. All those quotes prior to release that people bring up are good enough evidence. I firmly believe they actually went against everything that the series stood for to make a point - question is, what point were they trying to make, and to whom. Have my theory of course.


I was speculating this as well. Almost looks like BW is giving EA the big "flying fickle finger of fate" award. (and I just showed my age---damn) 

#66
2484Stryker

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pistolols wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

The theme wasn't wrong, they just twisted it beyond acceptance. Those three ending choices made no sense.


Sorry, but you are wrong.  Replay Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 and then come back to talk to me.  You will see those 3 choices pop out at you in a very surprising way.

See this is the problem.  Nobody was paying attention.


Hmm, let me see, Tali's father assembled these heretic Geth parts and they turned on him.  Big surprise there.  Tali and I fought our way through the ship and shut them down because they were hostile.  Then Tali discovers Legion transmitting info about Migrant fleet to non-hostile Geth because he believes the Quarians have hostile intentions.

I then step in and convince both sides to stand down.  Legion stops transmission, and Tali gives him non-sensitive data to send.

Peace achieved.

Yeah, this certainly makes the genocide option seem awesome!  And as for control & synthesis?  Irrelevant!  Organics can coexist with synthetics!

And this isn't even including the fact that Shepard would have a HUGE PROBLEM with those three choices.

#67
The Charnel Expanse

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Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

Joeyv wrote...

Man. The arrogance of thinking you know the game better than members of the team who developed the damn game series..

Sorry, but anyone who paid attention to the first 99.9% of the trilogy would realize what the central theme is. It doesn't take any degree of arrogance to understand a work. And just because the guy is credited with creating a franchise doesn't mean Hudson has full authority over its contents. He might have had his own vision of where to take it, but clearly Karpyshyn, who was the head writer for the first two games, was the one exercising the most creative control and setting the parameters for what the story was actually about.



Sorry but can you explain to me how Unity has anything to do with the first game?  The first game was about sobservience and doing what you needed to even if you had to do it alone.  Or did you forget about Shepard STEALING the normandy to go fight Saren by himself?  The conflict with Wrex is another excercise in sobservience vs duty.  Wrex rebels against you because what you're doing goes against everything he believes in.  He doesnt want to blindly follow orders just like you dont want to blindly submit to the reapers.

Look at the bigger picture. Saren is the antagonist because he seeks self-preservation at the expense of everything and everyone else. The Council, despite their best intentions, are responsible for hamstringing you with bureaucracy because they don't recognize the threat the reapers represent and are reluctant to accept humanity as equals in the galactic community. Plus, they view themselves as peacekeepers because they view the various species as incapable of putting their differences aside. They don't view galactic unity as being possible. They also use the geth as convenient scapegoats in the conflict because to them they're irredeemable boogeymen, incapable of cooperating with organics and thus not worthy of anything but hostility. And the krogan are only slightly better in that regard.

In the second and third games, Cerberus takes center stage as a force dedicated to human dominance over the galaxy. It's their arrogance and unwillingness to abandon anthropocentrism for the greater good that turns them into villains and ultimately leads to their downfall. The Illusive Man views the reapers as an opportunity to bring the rest of the galaxy to its knees, rather than as an existential threat. And in the end it turns out that's exactly what the Reapers wanted.

It's not just about unity. It's about unity for the sake of survival.

#68
UrgentArchengel

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I guess all and all, the real theme of Mass Effect is about Free Will. This also works with the unity thing and the man vs machine. Basically, we are all right, just not connecting the dots right...I don't know, I'm just speculating.

#69
SirBob1613

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pistolols wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

The theme wasn't wrong, they just twisted it beyond acceptance. Those three ending choices made no sense.


Sorry, but you are wrong.  Replay Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 and then come back to talk to me.  You will see those 3 choices pop out at you in a very surprising way.

See this is the problem.  Nobody was paying attention.


Star childs logic. The created with always rebel agaisnt the creators
Geth vs Qurian log: The creators killed the created because they got to smart

#70
SirBob1613

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Rob_Nix wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Personally i think ME2 messed everyone up made everyone think it was all about the characters which was never my take at all and in fact i found ME2 to be rather tedious dealing with all these characters personal problems that i didn't even care about.

I always knew the heart of this was a conflict of man vs machine. And i loved the way the end tied everything together in the form of an AI behind it all... it was pretty mind blowing to behonest.


Yeah.. an AI being behind it all has never been done before in sci fi...

UGH.



#71
Daedalus1773

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pistolols wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

pistolols wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

The theme wasn't wrong, they just twisted it beyond acceptance. Those three ending choices made no sense.


Sorry, but you are wrong.  Replay Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 and then come back to talk to me.  You will see those 3 choices pop out at you in a very surprising way.

See this is the problem.  Nobody was paying attention.


I'd like to ask you - how did you resolve the Geth/Quarian conflict on Rannoch in ME3?


Tali dies in ME2 for me so it got a little crazy lol.  I don't think uniting them was ever an option for me.  The geth wipe the quarians out.


Then I concede StarKid's dialogue sort of makes sense in your game.

However, in my game, Tali lived through ME2. Then as I got to understand the historical events behind the Geth/Quarian war, it became clear to my Shepard that the ongoing conflict was based on a fair amount of misunderstanding. Ultimately my decisions led to the Geth & Quarians coexisting peacefully on Rannoch, with the Geth helping the Quarians rebuild their cities and biological immune systems in a highly accelerated fashion. Then their fleets showed up together to fight the Reapers at Earth.

BioWare WROTE THIS PLOT into their game. I imagine their writers spent a fair amount of time planning them out.

Now try to put yourself in the shoes of everyone who resolved the Geth/Quarian conflict in this manner. StarKid - a brand new character you've never met before who admits it is the force that controls the Reapers - tells you that it is inevitable in every galactic cycle that Synthetics will rise up & exterminate all organic life in the galaxy, so he must prevent this by exterminating advanced organic life. Leaving aside the inherent contradictions, why would my Shepard accept this statement about INEVITABLE conflict  as true when the storyline that BioWare has let me play through proves in absolute empirical terms says this is not true. In my game all Shepard & StarKid have to do is look up & see Geth and Quarian ships fighting Reapers side by side.  Geth ships fight the Reapers alongside the galactic armada in your ending as well even if the Quarians are dead, I believe.

I'm not going to ask you to agree with me that the endings are 'bad', it's fine with me if other people enjoyed them. But can you at least understand why so many others consider the ending 'broken'?  There are lots of other problems I could bring up, but that alone betrays the game I personally just played, completely & thoroughly.

Modifié par Daedalus1773, 07 avril 2012 - 07:14 .


#72
pistolols

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2484Stryker wrote...

pistolols wrote...

2484Stryker wrote...

The theme wasn't wrong, they just twisted it beyond acceptance. Those three ending choices made no sense.


Sorry, but you are wrong.  Replay Tali's loyalty mission in ME2 and then come back to talk to me.  You will see those 3 choices pop out at you in a very surprising way.

See this is the problem.  Nobody was paying attention.


Hmm, let me see, Tali's father assembled these heretic Geth parts and they turned on him.  Big surprise there.  Tali and I fought our way through the ship and shut them down because they were hostile.  Then Tali discovers Legion transmitting info about Migrant fleet to non-hostile Geth because he believes the Quarians have hostile intentions.

I then step in and convince both sides to stand down.  Legion stops transmission, and Tali gives him non-sensitive data to send.

Peace achieved.

Yeah, this certainly makes the genocide option seem awesome!  And as for control & synthesis?  Irrelevant!  Organics can coexist with synthetics!

And this isn't even including the fact that Shepard would have a HUGE PROBLEM with those three choices.


one admiral wanted to retake control the geth, one admiral wanted to destroy them, and another just wanted peace.

There you have it.  ME3's ending 3 choices. (essentially.  i admit, synthesis is weird)  And as Shepard we have conversation options to agree or disagree with these choices, so we are essentially already making this choice way back in ME2 before even meeting starbrat.

Modifié par pistolols, 07 avril 2012 - 07:17 .


#73
Sparse

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pistolols wrote...
Yeah because most people don't pay attention.  The final choice of the game, for example, to control or destory synthetic lifeforms is a conflict brought up NUMEROUS times throughout the series.  It is absolutely a major theme.


You do know that 'man vs machine' wasn't actually important in itself but only for what it symbolises, right??

Modifié par Sparse, 07 avril 2012 - 07:17 .


#74
pistolols

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Sparse wrote...

pistolols wrote...
Yeah because most people don't pay attention.  The final choice of the game, for example, to control or destory synthetic lifeforms is a conflict brought up NUMEROUS times throughout the series.  It is absolutely a major theme.


You do know that 'man vs machine' wasn't actually important in itself but only for what it symbolises, right??


Word?  machines wiping out organic life every 50k years was just symbolism?  lol

#75
shadowreflexion

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The Charnel Expanse wrote...

It's pretty clear that in crafting the ending, the two men ostensibly responsible for it completely lost track of what has been the established central theme of the Mass Effect trilogy - the struggle of one wo/man to unite a galaxy against an existential threat and the difficult choices s/he is forced to make in the process. It's a simple theme and one that should not have been difficult to stick with. Instead, when it came time to conclude the series, they took what had been an existing but ultimately ancillary theme in the game universe - the conflict between man and machine [or organics and synthetics, as it were] and decided to wedge that in as the main focus of the series at the very last moment, thus completely upsetting the narrative flow of all three games. 

Now, to be fair, organics versus synthetics WAS a present conflict and not to an insignificant degree. Listening to Saren talk during the first game, you'd think that was the focus of the story from his perspective. But in the second game, it was relegated to a very minor plot element; magnified slightly in the third [specifically during the Rannoch arc] but it was never the main focus of the Mass Effect series, and that should've been abundantly clear to two men who were there for the entire creative process. Saren was never the protagonist of Mass Effect, and for the writers to adopt his warped view of the universe is just baffling.

Why they lost sight of things, I could only speculate. But this thematic disconnect is why any attempt to salvage the existing ending will almost surely fall short of satisfying any serious fans. The Catalyst is not completely irredeemable as an exposition fairy character, but damn close to it, because he represents such a disconnect from what the story is actually about, and in order to fit him into the narrative his entire character would have to be rewritten meticulously, to reflect Shepard's view of the universe. Very difficult to do, given how little precedent there is for his appearance in the first place.


My view is that it is impossible to place blame on two figure heads. There were others that contributed heavily to the game as well. The good thing is that there are too many voices to be ignored but the flip side of that is how those same voices chose to express their dissatisfaction. I can in no way defend the final product nor can I defend the decisions that caused the game to stray heavily away from its core.

Unfortunately, after I took time to think about it after the anger passed, I believe that BW was not acting in the best interest of the game but more along of the precedent EA set for them. We are nothing but numbers to EA but with BW we were at some point people who enjoyed their games and the same people whom they asked concerning improvements to their games.

Now who should catch the brunt of this? BW or EA? I can't go into detail simply because I have not read any contractual papers between the two. But this does not feel like a BW decision to me. I want endings that reflect my Shep's personality and choices. I want the child removed and the attention placed back on destroying Harbinger. I even want the ME2 romances given more than just cutscenes. And yes, I wanted some of my old squad back with me as I go into hell one last time. But those are time consuming and I believe that if BW had one more year to work then the game would have been a complete and wonderous experience.

I even hoped that a team would have sat down and played all the games just to see where the narrative was going. I wanted Drew to be contacted about how he felt concerning the writing. But alas, those were my wants. 

No matter what EA says, it comes down to them hurting themselves in the long run. There will come a time when they need the loyalty and money from the fans to stay afloat in this economy to come and only then will they realize the mistake of alienating the people who support them. Maybe BW will realize that they didn't need the help from EA. Maybe they'll be able to break away and return to the games they had a passion for? Maybe one day. But as I said, there are too many other factors involved to just place blame on two individuals. Now if Walters started losing ideas then he has some of the blame. But, someone had to greenlight the weak writing and I don't think any of us know who made that decision.

I hope that they really take a step back and accept responsibilty because it is far easier to say we messed up and we are going to fix it than to take the steps they are taking now. The only question anyone should really be asking is how this will affect us in the furture and if sales drop then was it worth it? We are all apart of the BW studio and we were treated as such. But as far as EA's plans? They see us as a commodity, BW saw us as people. Here's hoping they'll remember that before it's too late.