239 réponses à ce sujet

[SmokePants]

Such stupid reasoning -- to think that themes are mutally exclusive of one another and that there's a right and wrong way to incorporate them.

Uniting the galaxy WAS a theme. Of Mass Effect 3. It's really hard to argue that the other games were "all about" uniting the galaxy and ME3 could have unfolded without that element entirely.

Organic-Synthetic conflict was the most persistent theme. It's why the galaxy is under threat. Even ME2 had ties with EDI and her unshackling, the "Human Reaper", Tali's stuff, Legion's stuff, and Shepard being rebuilt with implants that become apparent when he makes renegade choices.

[vigna]

OP, come on that is just disingenuous. I think they know the plot of the game since ya know--they were responsible for writing it...hahahah. They just took it someplace that led to a ridiculous conclusion.

[pistolols]

SmokePants wrote...

Such stupid reasoning -- to think that themes are mutally exclusive of one another and that there's a right and wrong way to incorporate them.

Uniting the galaxy WAS a theme. Of Mass Effect 3. It's really hard to argue that the other games were "all about" uniting the galaxy and ME3 could have unfolded without that element entirely.

Organic-Synthetic conflict was the most persistent theme. It's why the galaxy is under threat. Even ME2 had ties with EDI and her unshackling, the "Human Reaper", Tali's stuff, Legion's stuff, and Shepard being rebuilt with implants that become apparent when he makes renegade choices.

agreed. 

Another thing i think is interesting is how from ME2 on, Shepard is the example the writers have given us that synthesis of man and machine can work and can be a good thing, so long as it doesn't have to do with indoctrination or anything crazy.

Modifié par pistolols, 07 avril 2012 - 07:26 .

[UrgentArchengel]

pistolols wrote...

Sparse wrote...

pistolols wrote...
Yeah because most people don't pay attention.  The final choice of the game, for example, to control or destory synthetic lifeforms is a conflict brought up NUMEROUS times throughout the series.  It is absolutely a major theme.

You do know that 'man vs machine' wasn't actually important in itself but only for what it symbolises, right??

Word?  machines wiping out organic life every 50k years was just symbolism?  lol

The Reapers wipe out advanced organic life every 50,000 years because of the chaos the free will creates, the Reapers are the antithesis of free will.  Indoctrination takes away free will, for example.

[arthurhallam]

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Personally i think ME2 messed everyone up made everyone think it was all about the characters which was never my take at all and in fact i found ME2 to be rather tedious dealing with all these characters personal problems that i didn't even care about.

I always knew the heart of this was a conflict of man vs machine. And i loved the way the end tied everything together in the form of an AI behind it all... it was pretty mind blowing to behonest.

You represent a tiny minority.

yes, because the majority are dumb. 

anybody who followed the story closely knew it was always about the influence of technology on the existence of sentient life. 

there were so many clues & instances of this. jesus, what do people need in order to understand something. 

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

]Look at the bigger picture. Saren is the antagonist because he seeks self-preservation at the expense of everything and everyone else. The Council, despite their best intentions, are responsible for hamstringing you with bureaucracy because they don't recognize the threat the reapers represent and are reluctant to accept humanity as equals in the galactic community. Plus, they view themselves as peacekeepers because they view the various species as incapable of putting their differences aside. They don't view galactic unity as being possible. They also use the geth as convenient scapegoats in the conflict because to them they're irredeemable boogeymen, incapable of cooperating with organics and thus not worthy of anything but hostility. And the krogan are only slightly better in that regard.

What you just said doesnt actaully have anything to do with unity for the sake of survival.  ME1 is about biggotry and lack of understanding, but unity is not the same thing as acceptance.  ME1 is about chosing your path and making tough decisions.  Killing the raccni queen doesnt have anything to do with unity, it has to do with fear.  The suicide mission was about loyalty and bringing people together because it was the only way we were going to stop the reapers.  In ME1 attempts to work together fail so you have to go out on your own, other themes take over in ME1 because unity is not a major theme of the first game. 

In FFX you assembled a ragtag group of heroes, and your group is actually running in opposition to the themes of unity established in the game.  Joining the army to work together and defeat Sin results in a bloodbath because working together will not defeat this monster.  Following seymore and unifying under the governments wont win against Sin it will just perpetuate the cycle.  The entire point of that game wasnt unity, it was self sacrifice.  (First through yuna then through tidus)  Unless something is the underlying theme that the story hinges on then it is not the major theme of the story.  Success through Unity was not the theme of FFX and it was not the theme of ME1.

[The Charnel Expanse]

vigna wrote...

OP, come on that is just disingenuous. I think they know the plot of the game since ya know--they were responsible for writing it...hahahah. They just took it someplace that led to a ridiculous conclusion.

When you're working on a project as part of a team, everyone on that team is going to have a different vision of where to take it. As I understand it, the ending was written by Walters and Hudson signed off on it with little or no input from the other 8 writers. That means they usurped control over the project from the rest of the team and took it in a direction it was never meant to go. 

[kalasaurus]

I feel the same way, OP. The theme of synthetics vs. organics should have been more in the forefront for the ending to actually work. Portraying synthetics as innocent and misunderstood victims with Legion, the Rannoch missions, EDI, and Tali's loyalty mission (to a lesser extent) also makes the ending feel disconnected. Making peace between the Geth and the Quarians should not have even been a possibility.

The Catalyst may be telling the truth about the impending genocide of organics at the hands of AI, but what the game actually shows us does not fit with what he's saying. So, it forces us to go on hypotheticals and things outside the actual story we see.

[The Charnel Expanse]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

]Look at the bigger picture. Saren is the antagonist because he seeks self-preservation at the expense of everything and everyone else. The Council, despite their best intentions, are responsible for hamstringing you with bureaucracy because they don't recognize the threat the reapers represent and are reluctant to accept humanity as equals in the galactic community. Plus, they view themselves as peacekeepers because they view the various species as incapable of putting their differences aside. They don't view galactic unity as being possible. They also use the geth as convenient scapegoats in the conflict because to them they're irredeemable boogeymen, incapable of cooperating with organics and thus not worthy of anything but hostility. And the krogan are only slightly better in that regard.

What you just said doesnt actaully have anything to do with unity for the sake of survival.  ME1 is about biggotry and lack of understanding, but unity is not the same thing as acceptance.  ME1 is about chosing your path and making tough decisions.  Killing the raccni queen doesnt have anything to do with unity, it has to do with fear.  The suicide mission was about loyalty and bringing people together because it was the only way we were going to stop the reapers.  In ME1 attempts to work together fail so you have to go out on your own, other themes take over in ME1 because unity is not a major theme of the first game. 

In FFX you assembled a ragtag group of heroes, and your group is actually running in opposition to the themes of unity established in the game.  Joining the army to work together and defeat Sin results in a bloodbath because working together will not defeat this monster.  Following seymore and unifying under the governments wont win against Sin it will just perpetuate the cycle.  The entire point of that game wasnt unity, it was self sacrifice.  (First through yuna then through tidus)  Unless something is the underlying theme that the story hinges on then it is not the major theme of the story.  Success through Unity was not the theme of FFX and it was not the theme of ME1.

Bringing FFX into the argument pretty much buries you.

[M.Erik.Sal]

Here's why the central theme, or even a main theme, of ME1 is not synthetics vs organics. For most of the first game, as far you know the Geth are following Saren. An Organic.

We don't know what the Reapers are until Virmire, except that they wiped out the Protheans and the life before it in a cycle going back 50k years. For most of the game the villain is Saren and not Sovereign; who only shows up during the climax (tangentially: this is the last proper place for a twist, not the denouement.) and he uses not only Synthetics but organics as well (cloned Korgans anyone?)

Not only is synthetics not the central theme, it's in fact not even a main one in ME1.

[pistolols]

GlassElephant wrote...

The Catalyst may be telling the truth about the impending genocide of organics at the hands of AI, but what the game actually shows us does not fit with what he's saying. So, it forces us to go on hypotheticals and things outside the actual story we see.

Well wait just a damn minute... are people not realizing that what the catalyst says is MERELY HIS OPINION?  This was not some absolute truth or something the writers were trying to convey to us... it was an AI's opinion and reasoning behind a demented solution.

Modifié par pistolols, 07 avril 2012 - 07:33 .

[BD Manchild]

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

Drew only resigned from BW this past February. Do we know why he wasn't involved with ME3?

[sorry, I never really kept track of this kind of stuff]

Wasn't he re-assigned to The Old Republic?

Back on-topic, I really think Hudson and Walters completely missed the point with the ending.

While the whole "man vs machine" thing may be true to an extent with ME1, in ME2, with the introduction of Legion, that whole idea is thrown out of the window. After that the real point of the series. to my mind, was about beating the odds, strength in unity and diversity, and the fact that history didn't have to repeat itself, that these horrendous cycles of bitterness, hatred and destruction could be broken. The ending takes a massive dump on all that.

[Sparse]

pistolols wrote...
Word?  machines wiping out organic life every 50k years was just symbolism?  lol

Yes. Science Fiction writers like to hold a mirror up to humanity.

Machines are a very good way of doing that because they are in every way the opposite to humanity. They are cold, emotionless, in some sense immortal, calculating, irrational, routine, unwavering etc.

The entire series is exploring what it means to be human. Struggle, sacrifice, freedom, the fight to be noticed, the fight for respectability, they are all things that we can relate to, The themes of home and family constantly crop up - in Mass Effect 2 family was very much a theme. it's why the writers were able to build such an emotional bond between the player and his/her Shepard. Shepard and Shepard's story was a mirror into ourselves.

Indoctrination is about our free will - that's why both Saren and the Illusive Man can be talked into reasserting their individuality, the Geth group consciousness is in part a human ideal, The different species represent different sides of the human character. The whole thing is about what it is to be human and exploring human emotion.

The reason why so many people hated the ending was because it was a 'machine' ending rather than a human one. It was the cold, calculating machine calling the shots and not the player's emotional human Shepard.

[SimonTheFrog]

GlassElephant wrote...

I feel the same way, OP. The theme of synthetics vs. organics should have been more in the forefront for the ending to actually work. Portraying synthetics as innocent and misunderstood victims with Legion, the Rannoch missions, EDI, and Tali's loyalty mission (to a lesser extent) also makes the ending feel disconnected. Making peace between the Geth and the Quarians should not have even been a possibility.

The Catalyst may be telling the truth about the impending genocide of organics at the hands of AI, but what the game actually shows us does not fit with what he's saying. So, it forces us to go on hypotheticals and things outside the actual story we see.

I agree!

Making the Geth work together with the Quarians to rebuild Rannoch was one of the most poignant and gratifying moment in the trilogy.

I mean, how the heck can you, as a writer, not see the emotional importance of that scene?!

[Auztin]

I thought the theme was to stop the inevitable.First it is what I said & turns into Terminator Knockoff.

Modifié par Auztinito, 07 avril 2012 - 07:38 .

[The Charnel Expanse]

pistolols wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

I feel the same way, OP. The theme of synthetics vs. organics should have been more in the forefront for the ending to actually work. Portraying synthetics as innocent and misunderstood victims with Legion, the Rannoch missions, EDI, and Tali's loyalty mission (to a lesser extent) also makes the ending feel disconnected. Making peace between the Geth and the Quarians should not have even been a possibility.

The Catalyst may be telling the truth about the impending genocide of organics at the hands of AI, but what the game actually shows us does not fit with what he's saying. So, it forces us to go on hypotheticals and things outside the actual story we see.

Well wait just a damn minute... are people not reaizing that what the catalyst says is MERELY HIS OPINION?  This was not some absolute truth or something the writers were trying to convey to us... it was an AI's opinion and reasoning behind a demented solution.

That it's his opinion doesn't validate his presence at the top of the antagonist hierarchy of the series. Nor does it justify his sudden and clumsy introduction at the very end of the story.

It's like finding out that the Pope is just a puppet of a super-intelligent orangutan who manipulates humanity through religion because he doesn't think we're ready for a world without it.
...or something.

Modifié par The Charnel Expanse, 07 avril 2012 - 07:37 .

[EnforcerWRX7]

I completely agree with the topic statement. They tried so hard to appeal to some higher level of story telling that they failed to complete the meaning of the game they originally created,

[arthurhallam]

M.Erik.Sal wrote...

Here's why the central theme, or even a main theme, of ME1 is not synthetics vs organics. For most of the first game, as far you know the Geth are following Saren. An Organic.

We don't know what the Reapers are until Virmire, except that they wiped out the Protheans and the life before it in a cycle going back 50k years. For most of the game the villain is Saren and not Sovereign; who only shows up during the climax (tangentially: this is the last proper place for a twist, not the denouement.) and he uses not only Synthetics but organics as well (cloned Korgans anyone?)

Not only is synthetics not the central theme, it's in fact not even a main one in ME1.

you haven't got a frigging clue what a theme is. 

themes are not determined by plot!

[BatmanPWNS]

I thought the whole purpose of the series was to kill giant things.

[Daedalus1773]

pistolols wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

The Catalyst may be telling the truth about the impending genocide of organics at the hands of AI, but what the game actually shows us does not fit with what he's saying. So, it forces us to go on hypotheticals and things outside the actual story we see.

Well wait just a damn minute... are people not realizing that what the catalyst says is MERELY HIS OPINION?  This was not some absolute truth or something the writers were trying to convey to us... it was an AI's opinion and reasoning behind a demented solution.

And Shepard swallowed it with nary a single peep of disagreement.

[The Charnel Expanse]

Daedalus1773 wrote...

pistolols wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

The Catalyst may be telling the truth about the impending genocide of organics at the hands of AI, but what the game actually shows us does not fit with what he's saying. So, it forces us to go on hypotheticals and things outside the actual story we see.

Well wait just a damn minute... are people not realizing that what the catalyst says is MERELY HIS OPINION?  This was not some absolute truth or something the writers were trying to convey to us... it was an AI's opinion and reasoning behind a demented solution.

And Shepard swallowed it with nary a single peep of disagreement.

This can ALMOST be handwaved away by the fact that Shepard is suffering from massive bloodloss and is exhausted following the final confrontation with TIM.

But even so, it completely contradicts the existing narrative.

Modifié par The Charnel Expanse, 07 avril 2012 - 07:39 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Daedalus1773 wrote...

Then I concede StarKid's dialogue sort of makes sense in your game.

However, in my game, Tali lived through ME2. Then as I got to understand the historical events behind the Geth/Quarian war, it became clear to my Shepard that the ongoing conflict was based on a fair amount of misunderstanding. Ultimately my decisions led to the Geth & Quarians coexisting peacefully on Rannoch, with the Geth helping the Quarians rebuild their cities and biological immune systems in a highly accelerated fashion. Then their fleets showed up together to fight the Reapers at Earth.

BioWare WROTE THIS PLOT into their game. I imagine their writers spent a fair amount of time planning them out.

Now try to put yourself in the shoes of everyone who resolved the Geth/Quarian conflict in this manner. StarKid - a brand new character you've never met before who admits it is the force that controls the Reapers - tells you that it is inevitable in every galactic cycle that Synthetics will rise up & exterminate all organic life in the galaxy, so he must prevent this by exterminating advanced organic life. Leaving aside the inherent contradictions, why would my Shepard accept this statement about INEVITABLE conflict  as true when the storyline that BioWare has let me play through proves in absolute empirical terms says this is not true. In my game all Shepard & StarKid have to do is look up & see Geth and Quarian ships fighting Reapers side by side.  Geth ships fight the Reapers alongside the galactic armada in your ending as well even if the Quarians are dead, I believe.

I'm not going to ask you to agree with me that the endings are 'bad', it's fine with me if other people enjoyed them. But can you at least understand why so many others consider the ending 'broken'?  There are lots of other problems I could bring up, but that alone betrays the game I personally just played, completely & thoroughly.

The thing about the geth is that peace is only achieved through accepting them as equals and not shooting first.  Its still an uneasy alliance, just as it is with uniting with the Krogans or the Raccni.  One wrong move could lead to a chain reaction that sees the Geth return to self defensive actions.  "These creatures will always put themselves before us, therefor we must act to preserve ourselves before they can destroy us" 

The Morning War was the escalation of Geth peace into Geth war.  It could happen again.  If not through the geth than another AI developed some thousands of years later.  Peace with the geth was something that was achieved on good graces, its a rare occurance, just like with the krogan.  The scene where Wrex comes looking for shepard's head after he sabotaged the cure is an example of the non-permanence of the peace you can establish. 

The fact that even when they gain true intelligence that a failure to negotiate a cease fire will result in them wiping out the quarians, or that if you try to stop legion from uploading he will turn on you shows how shakey peace with the geth is in reality.  You may have gotten them to work together today, but something could happen tomarrow that sees the geth seeking to destroy us again.  Thats the underlying message behind that resolution.  


I brokered peace but I still felt uneasy about the future of the geth after the war with the reapers, same thing for the krogan and the raccni.  Those species arent "like us" and theres plenty of room for bad things to go down after the greater threat is taken care of. 

This is a world war 2 story afterall and do you remember what went down between america and russia after thier alliance against a common enemy?  Cold war.  Had things gone abit differently during that time we could all be dead.  Thats why peace cannot last.

[Reptilian Rob]

I can see Hudson's ego from my house.

Jesus Christ it's huge.

[Daedalus1773]

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

Daedalus1773 wrote...

pistolols wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

The Catalyst may be telling the truth about the impending genocide of organics at the hands of AI, but what the game actually shows us does not fit with what he's saying. So, it forces us to go on hypotheticals and things outside the actual story we see.

Well wait just a damn minute... are people not realizing that what the catalyst says is MERELY HIS OPINION?  This was not some absolute truth or something the writers were trying to convey to us... it was an AI's opinion and reasoning behind a demented solution.

And Shepard swallowed it with nary a single peep of disagreement.

This can ALMOST be handwaved away by the fact that Shepard is suffering from massive bloodloss and is exhausted following the final confrontation with TIM.

But even so, it completely contradicts the existing narrative.

In the scenario you describe, I am suddenly & inexplicably not playing the same Commander Shepard I spent the first 150+ hours of the game playing.  Again, broken ending. (Not arguing with you, I think we're saying basically the same thing here.)

Modifié par Daedalus1773, 07 avril 2012 - 07:41 .

[pistolols]

Daedalus1773 wrote...

pistolols wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

The Catalyst may be telling the truth about the impending genocide of organics at the hands of AI, but what the game actually shows us does not fit with what he's saying. So, it forces us to go on hypotheticals and things outside the actual story we see.

Well wait just a damn minute... are people not realizing that what the catalyst says is MERELY HIS OPINION?  This was not some absolute truth or something the writers were trying to convey to us... it was an AI's opinion and reasoning behind a demented solution.

And Shepard swallowed it with nary a single peep of disagreement.

I didn't get that sense at all.  But regardless.. what the catalyst says is his opinion and his alone.