239 réponses à ce sujet

[Teacher50]

I am KROGAN wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

If you think the only major theme is Mass Effect is Synthetics v. Organics you need to go find a rock and go live under it.

Dear lord. There are so many other things at work it boggles my mind. People aren't angry that this theme was addressed they are angry because it was the ONLY theme addressed.

This, 1000000x this.  I'm glad someone else gets it.

I would point out the following...

In contemporary literary studies, a theme is the central topic,
subject, or concept the author is trying to point out, not to be
confused with whatever message, moral, or commentary it may send or be
interpreted as sending regarding said concept (i.e., its inferred
"thesis").

Taken literally, if the ending does not match the story, it cannot be the theme. It can only be an ill conceive plot device.

[The Charnel Expanse]

Also, this is out on the periphery, but in introducing the Catalyst the way they did, Hudson and Walters opened up a completely unnecessary can of infinite regress. They deemed it worthwhile to give us a solution to the question of WHY the Reapers exist, and answered it with an ancient AI of seemingly infinite power, but now we're stuck with the question of who created this AI and how it came to be the arbiter of the cycle of extinction, which are questions they never bother to address.

That's just pitifully sloppy.

[Slash1667]

anlk92 wrote...

Dr_Hello wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Personally i think ME2 messed everyone up made everyone think it was all about the characters which was never my take at all and in fact i found ME2 to be rather tedious dealing with all these characters personal problems that i didn't even care about.

I always knew the heart of this was a conflict of man vs machine. And i loved the way the end tied everything together in the form of an AI behind it all... it was pretty mind blowing to behonest.

I see your point and it makes sense.

Yes one of the central themes has been Organics vs Synthetics, ever since ME1...
However there are other central themes which characterize the mass effect story and its success. They are relationship (whether romantic or friendship), alliance, and character-driven stories, and they were neglected in the ending's writing.

Also simply using that theme does not cut it. Their approach to it in the ending is the complete opposite of how they handled it in the rest of the game. The two storylines that follow this theme end with:

"Does this unit have a soul?"
"Legion, the answer to your question was yes."

and

"Only now do I feel alive, that is your influence."

Then we get to the ending where we have the Starchild claiming that synthetics will eventually destory all organic life. This is just bad writing.

One other line was Tali sitting down and feeling bad about Legion having to "die"

"Here I am mourning a Geth, who would ever have thought that."

[uke2se]

pistolols wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

forced to make stupid decisions which go against Shepard's own character

well again shepard is a product of synthesis and it turned out pretty good for him.  Seems somewhat humorous and ironic to claim synthesis is "against his character" when it is his character lolololol.

Not at all. You apparently don't "get" Shepard.

[pistolols]

uke2se wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

forced to make stupid decisions which go against Shepard's own character

well again shepard is a product of synthesis and it turned out pretty good for him.  Seems somewhat humorous and ironic to claim synthesis is "against his character" when it is his character lolololol.

Not at all. You apparently don't "get" Shepard.

?? shepard is resurrected via a synthesis of man and machine.

[xxskyshadowxx]

ericjdev wrote...

I won't buy anything either of them touch again. Their egos and lack of vision killed something that should have been beautiful now they hide behind artistic integrity when the abomination they are responsible for contains not a smidge of artistry.

This. Right. Here.

[uke2se]

pistolols wrote...
?? shepard is resurrected via a synthesis of man and machine.

Not really, but in any case that's not his character.

It's not synthesis in the way the synthesis talked about in ME3 works. Shepard was brought back to life with tenchnological means of resuscitating organic life, and augmented by implants. Synthesis in ME works on a molecular level.

[AkeasharK]

Joeyv wrote...

Man. The arrogance of thinking you know the game better than members of the team who developed the damn game series..

Reminds me of high school where teachers would try and teach you the 'correct' way to interpret a text, which frequently has the authors wondering what the people that interpret the story was on.

I can't remember exactly which science fiction author it was, but he attended a University lecture on one of his books where he couldn't believe what the lecturer was reading into it, tried to clarify what the story was actually about, and got roundly told by the lecturer he didn't understand his own book.

[balance5050]

pistolols wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

forced to make stupid decisions which go against Shepard's own character

well again shepard is a product of synthesis and it turned out pretty good for him.  Seems somewhat humorous and ironic to claim synthesis is "against his character" when it is his character lolololol.

It is because you're making a fundumental decision for everyone in the galaxy and you're homogenizing everyone based on the racist assumption that synthetics always kill organics.

Modifié par balance5050, 07 avril 2012 - 08:33 .

[M.Erik.Sal]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
What a story is ABOUT is not necessarily what is HAPPENING in the story litterally.  Theres more to it than just that.

Then you have to establish symbols, and the symbols are part of the plot. I suppose I should have said text (or media) instead of plot, but the poitn still stands.

Anyways, this is now only sort of related to the original issue.

Synthetics vs Organics is not a main theme in the first game. It is a theme, but most of the plot (ME does not make heavy use of symbolism, or really any use). Unless you can point out to me what symbols in the main missions of the first game tie into the synthetic vs organic conflict (because it is not overtly supported by what literally happens) I'll assume you admit that you're wrong in regards to the importance of the synthetics vs organics theme starting the first game.

[Slash1667]

pistolols wrote...

whaaaa?  You definitely seem confused.  I'm talking about the 3 ending choices.. those were created by the crucible, not the catalyst.  The crucible reprogrammed the catalyst to accept these 3 new solutions over the old demented reaper cycle solution.  So it's only up to shepard to trust that the crucible is doing what it's supposed to do, you essentially don't have to care about what the catalyst says at all.  It's his opinion that if you choose destroy that the conflict of man vs machine will spring up again.  His opinion.

Ok you brought up a big problem in that one.

With all the scientists working on the Crucible don't you think that at least one of them would have been a programmer? If so, how much sense does it make for said programmer to just punch in code without figuring out what it even does. In fact they would have to figure out what it does so they could verify it would work on the hardware they are installing it on. After finding out what it does why didn't they say "Hey guys, we got a problem."

[The Night Mammoth]

The way I see it, there are three plots in Mass Effect, one major and two minor.

Major - Uniting the galaxy against the Reapers.

Minor 1 - The Geth/Quarian conflict.

Minor 2 - The Genophage.

These three plots all had their own little sub-themes that were explored, and largely resolved in ME3. What connected them? Unity and diversity make you stronger, certainly not synthetics vs organics.

[DevilBeast]

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

I know most see the two themes: unification of different civilizations to stand against a common enemy and the synthetics vs. organics conflict.
But I think there may be another theme: Being a slave to others will and the fight to break free from it.
F.ex: In the beginning we are told by Sovereign that all organic evolution is "directed" by the reapers along paths they want us to follow by allowing us to use their technology (the mass relays, the Citadel etc. etc.). So, basically the organic civilizations in ME are not much different than the cattle raised by a farmer. Then in ME3 we discover that the reapers aren´t actually the farmers but only the tool he uses (seems the name fits them even better after that revelation;)). They are just as much "caught" up in the cycle and evolution imposed by others as the organic species are.

Now, this theme isn´t only applied to the the reaper conflict it is seen in other situations throughout the series.
F.ex: the krogan being uplifted by the salarians, the drell becoming (willingly though) servants of the hanar, the hanar themselves being product of the protheans actions just like the asari whose culture and society was basically created by them and not to mention all the other species which the protheans subjugated during their empire.

So, yes the major theme is the conflict between the creators and the created (synthetics vs. organics), but the fight to break free from a cycle where everyone is a slave to someone elses will is present too. And the mass relays being destroyed in the end symbolizes the destruction of this cycle.

Anyway, this is just my opinon:)

You're right. And that comes to a head during the confrontation with TIM. Another reason why the Catalyst was an unnecessary insertion.

Yes, I completely forgot about the confrontation with the TIM. Shepard´s and TIM´s "battle of wills" is a perfect example of this theme. I am however unsure of what you mean by the Catalyst being an unnecessary insertion??

Trust, I´m not trying to prove you wrong or anything, I´m just curious. 

Again, the Catalyst, by virtue of what he is and what he tells you, completely uproots established themes and contradicts the narrative right at its end. It's just poor writing, plain and simple. There was no need to insert him into the story after the TIM confrontation because the moment Shepard activated the Crucible [and from a writing standpoint, there needs to be absolutely no intermediary between Shepard and the Crucible] the main conflicts of the series are resolved. Not perfectly, perhaps, but they're resolved. All that should remain is to show the aftermath.

Hell, the very fact that you forgot the confrontation with TIM should be proof positive of  just how unnecessary and poorly implemented the Catalyst is.

You actually have a good point, although I somehow suspect people would have been mad if Shepard´s choice only consisted of pressing a button and watch the fireworks. Much like they are currently with only having three choices. But yes, according to this theme the Catalyst should be just as much a slave to the cycle as everyone else, and the whole idea of presenting it as the ultimate "lord of the galaxy" seemed a bit ridiculous.
I personally wouldn´t have minded if I didn´t hear the reason for the reapers existence and who created them.
The mystery regarding their purpose and existence is what made them interesting in IMO.

[TheJiveDJ]

The central undeniable theme of the entire series has unquestionably been CHOICE. I see all these other explanations and hair pulling theories when the simplest and most obvious answer is usually avoided for some reason. CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE and the consequences of those choices. This has ALWAYS been the overarching theme of the entire franchise and the writers betrayed this theme in the game's final moments.

[Silvair]

The worst part of it all? The starchild's argument was that "Organics and synthetics can never co-exist."

Keep in mind this is immediately following Shepard solving the 300 year war between geth and quarians, not to mention the completely docile AI who works with shepard. Aka, two things that happened (One of which JUST happened, right before the final assault of the game) that proves that statement wrong.

So the final choices wind up like every other choice in the series: For nothing.

[IliaLo]

uke2se wrote...

pistolols wrote...
whaaaa?  You definitely seem confused.  I'm talking about the 3 ending choices.. those were created by the crucible, not the catalyst.  The crucible reprogrammed the catalyst to accept these 3 new solutions over the old demented reaper cycle solution.  So it's only up to shepard to trust that the crucible is doing what it's supposed to do, you essentially don't have to care about what the catalyst says at all.  It's his opinion that if you choose destroy that the conflict of man vs machine will spring up again.  His opinion.

But the Crucible is lying to Shepard. Why would Shepard do anything the Crucible tells him/her to do? I don't believe it's his opinion at all, but rather a blatant lie, but even if it was his opinion, he's wrong, and Shepard knows he's wrong. Why should Shepard - who stood up to impossible odds for three full games - suddenly just cave in and do something he/she knows is wrong, especially when doing so would cost billions of people their lives - not from Reapers but directly from Shepard's actions?

In ME2 TIM was lying to Shepard the whole time , his only goal was to lay his hands on any reaper/colector tech he can and yet Shepard blindly followed his orders, without any actuall chance, to tell him to ****** off, except blowing the colector base, so if you think about it ME2 is not that different storywise, then ME3, only that you are introducet to TIM at the begining and at the "Starchild", at the end 

[apieros]

pistolols wrote...

Nobody was paying attention.

Then the writers ****ed up. If this truly was their driving theme, and the vast majority of the players went "WTF?" at the end, the fault is the writers', not the players'.

Your blame is misplaced. As is your praise.

[Slash1667]

TheJiveDJ wrote...

The central undeniable theme of the entire series has unquestionably been CHOICE. I see all these other explanations and hair pulling theories when the simplest and most obvious answer is usually avoided for some reason. CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE and the consequences of those choices. This has ALWAYS been the overarching theme of the entire franchise and the writers betrayed this theme in the game's final moments.

You got me thinking. Is the central theme Choice or possibly Cause and Effect? When Shepard makes a choice, good or bad, they are presented with the consequences eventually.

[uke2se]

IliaLo wrote...
In ME2 TIM was lying to Shepard the whole time , his only goal was to lay his hands on any reaper/colector tech he can and yet Shepard blindly followed his orders, without any actuall chance, to tell him to ****** off, except blowing the colector base, so if you think about it ME2 is not that different storywise, then ME3, only that you are introducet to TIM at the begining and at the "Starchild", at the end 

Emphasized where you demonstrate yourself to be wrong. Shepard didn't know TIM was lying. He/she only knew that collectors were stealing humans and that they had to be stopped, and that TIM and Cerberus were apparently working towards that goal. 

ETA: Come to think of it, TIM rarely lied to Shepard. He just witheld facts.

Shepard knows the Crucible is lying/wrong, because what it says is directly contradicted by events almost directly preceding the final assault. Shepard also has no reason to trust the Crucible, as there is no common ground as there was with Cerberus.

Modifié par uke2se, 07 avril 2012 - 08:44 .

[balance5050]

I don't mean to nit pick on words... But at PAX he said "I dont want to comment on it because I don't want to be "prescriptive", uhm that would lead me to think that some of what in I.T. is in the "script", right? If he were to comment on what's right or wrong about IT, it would be prescriptive of the DLC.

That right there tells me something.

[Solmanian]

I think OP need to get the extra cut DLC, cause he doesn't understand what this game series was about.

[The Charnel Expanse]

TheJiveDJ wrote...

The central undeniable theme of the entire series has unquestionably been CHOICE. I see all these other explanations and hair pulling theories when the simplest and most obvious answer is usually avoided for some reason. CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE and the consequences of those choices. This has ALWAYS been the overarching theme of the entire franchise and the writers betrayed this theme in the game's final moments.

This isn't a sandbox game. There have always been elements of linearity and, shall I say, inevitability to the Mass Effect series. But at the same time, within that framework the options you have been given a chance to pursue have made a profound impact on how the game shapes up. The ending offers you three choices, but leaves you only able to speculate what their ramifications might be. that is, like you say, an abandonment of principle, if not so much theme.

[balance5050]

apieros wrote...

pistolols wrote...

Nobody was paying attention.

Then the writers ****ed up. If this truly was their driving theme, and the vast majority of the players went "WTF?" at the end, the fault is the writers', not the players'.

Your blame is misplaced. As is your praise.

The problem with your perception is you seem to think that you were supposed to get it the first time. Most people didn't but then you start looking deeper into the anomolys, and eventually have that "EUREKA!" moment. It was entirely there intention to overload youwith WTF at the end, then solve the mystery IN YOUR OWN HEAD. It's supposed to be Metagaming, but I'll be honest, lots of people just didn't get it. 

[Teacher50]

Justin2k wrote...

Teacher50 wrote...

I hear the arguments but I guess I'm the stupid one...

I took the central theme to be one of wo/man kind (humans) somehow beating all odds to defeat the foe. Too simple I guess. It did seem to me that everything else revolves around this.

Haha, this is funny to me because I once read a massive dossier on why Mass Effect was important because it showed how weak Humanity was compared to what else is out there.  Pretty much the fact that we think we're the biggest and the best, but in the scope of the universe we are small like ants.

I personally actually thought, no, i think it's about Shepard... not humanity, but Shepard himself.. one person defying all the odds.  Uniting races etc.

At the end of the day, an argument could be made for any number of different "themes" of the series, and some of them could be arguments that directly conflict each other.

As I said, perhaps it was too simple. As far as how Shepard is viewed, it's all a perception. Some will see Shepard as a symbol rather than a person.

As for theme, this could be true here. However, good literary works have a definite theme which can be derived. But we are talking about a video game. Maybe this is where the confusion comes in. Debate is good in any medium.

[balance5050]

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

TheJiveDJ wrote...

The central undeniable theme of the entire series has unquestionably been CHOICE. I see all these other explanations and hair pulling theories when the simplest and most obvious answer is usually avoided for some reason. CHOICE, CHOICE, CHOICE and the consequences of those choices. This has ALWAYS been the overarching theme of the entire franchise and the writers betrayed this theme in the game's final moments.

This isn't a sandbox game. There have always been elements of linearity and, shall I say, inevitability to the Mass Effect series. But at the same time, within that framework the options you have been given a chance to pursue have made a profound impact on how the game shapes up. The ending offers you three choices, but leaves you only able to speculate what their ramifications might be. that is, like you say, an abandonment of principle, if not so much theme.

Exactly, the end is the ultimate choice. It's kind of the choice to givie in to mental enslavement or "free" your mind to the infinite possibilities of fan feedback.