239 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

Turran wrote...

Surely at this point, Bioware know their game better than you? As they have all the theories and ideas they could easily formulate into THEIR universe which would automatically make it cannon?

So really... You clearly don't "get it".

(If you don't like it and they do, we must be missing something)

If this many people aren't 'getting it', then the writers have dropped the ball. And by writers, I mean the people responsible for the ending, because up to that point- minor plot points and quibbles aside, it was a cohesive story with simple but resounding themes.


What does it mean to be 'alive'?
Us versus Them
Tyranny versus Anarchy (rather than chaos and order, which are more natural to the world at large)


One of the things Shepard does- repeatedly- is erase Us versus Them and then turns it into just Us. Together we stand. One force made of many lives, cultures, hopes and dreams, but unified under the banner of We Have The Right To Determine Our Own Destiny. Or rather, screw destiny. It's about showing that all sentient beings have the right to self-determinate, and that no mob of organic slushie ships can just come and take what is fundamentally ours, not without one hell of a fight.


The ending turned into God Child playing Tonka Trucks with the galaxy and the number one 'Kiss my Ass' wo/man, Shepard, just goes with it, even though we can categorically prove that their beliefs are wrong and therefore, their logic is wrong. We just don't. We're forced to accept an unsatisfying fate because someone decided to get mystical and 'deep' (and  I use the term loosely) and then has dug in their heels when the vast majority of pollers went, 'what the hell is this?'

[sfam]

Teacher50 wrote...

I hear the arguments but I guess I'm the stupid one...

I took the central theme to be one of wo/man kind (humans) somehow beating all odds to defeat the foe. Too simple I guess. It did seem to me that everything else revolves around this.

At its essence, the Mass Effect series is David vs Goliath. Where all sentient life in the galaxy lines up every 50K years in a futile attempt to survive.

Except in this version (ME3), God comes down and screws with everyone just because he can. Wow, there's a motivating story, ey?

Modifié par sfam, 07 avril 2012 - 09:13 .

[CronoDragoon]

balance5050 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

It does indeed try to do to many things at once, with I.T. in mind it suddenly turns the game in to a horroor, psychological thriller, mystery, in addition to everything it was before. Yes, trying to do this in the last 15 minutes is a weakness, but it's also what makes it so appealing.

If you are a believer in IT, then yeah the ending does have some depth to it. But most people post-PAX have decided that it was meant literally, and that changes everything.

So what a bunch of people think changes everything? No, they said they don't want to confirm or deny because they don't want to be "prescriptive". PRE-SCRIPTIVE, if they were to start commenting on what's right or wring with I.T. they would be giving away the impact that the DLC will have.

It's good that you're trying to be like everyone else though.

You keep holding onto IT like a religion, and if the rapture comes then I will totally be proven wrong. But the reason so many people think IT is no longer the case is because of a few things, one of them being Bioware flat out stating they had to reprioritize their single-player DLC schedule to make the EC, suggesting that no further ending stuff was in the works. If them saying "fans can interpret it in THEIR OWN WAY" ie "not our way" is not a dead give-away then I don't know what is.

It's good that you're trying not to be like everyone else though.

[apieros]

 Let's dig deeper for a second.

The Catalyst is presented as the solution to an inevitable problem: synthetics will always rebel, and they will always wipe out all life in the galaxy. Thus, the entire ending of the game is an attempt to solve this inevitable conflict.

On its face, this is a bull**** contention. There is nothing in the real world which indicates this to be the case. It's like asserting an inevitable genocidal conflict between ice cream and caterpillars. This makes it hard to build a game around.

But, if you want to do so anyway (in direct contradiction of reason and common sense) you have to establish that, in your own fictional world, this assertion is actually true. You have to give examples of it, in the present and the past. You have to personalize it, in the form of characters and ongoing problems.

You have to give the player chances to solve it (or smaller instances of it) and show how their attempts are futile. Keep increasing the stakes of the conflict. From personal, to planetary, to galactic.

Thus, by the end of the game, players will accept it is a real conflict, and care about solving it, and be desperate for a solution. Enter the Catalyst.

That's how you establish a main theme.

Did they do this with the "inevitable conflict between synthetics and organics"? No, not even a little bit.

Did they do it with anything? Yeah, the Reapers. See the problem?

"Inevitable blah blah" is not only false on its face, the game itself never establishes the conflict as being of critical importance. The conflict between the Reapers and galactic civilization, on the other hand, is the central conflict of the game, and it is that central conflict the ending should have resolved.

The writers ****ed up.

[The Charnel Expanse]

CronoDragoon wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

It does indeed try to do to many things at once, with I.T. in mind it suddenly turns the game in to a horroor, psychological thriller, mystery, in addition to everything it was before. Yes, trying to do this in the last 15 minutes is a weakness, but it's also what makes it so appealing.

If you are a believer in IT, then yeah the ending does have some depth to it. But most people post-PAX have decided that it was meant literally, and that changes everything.

So what a bunch of people think changes everything? No, they said they don't want to confirm or deny because they don't want to be "prescriptive". PRE-SCRIPTIVE, if they were to start commenting on what's right or wring with I.T. they would be giving away the impact that the DLC will have.

It's good that you're trying to be like everyone else though.

You keep holding onto IT like a religion, and if the rapture comes then I will totally be proven wrong. But the reason so many people think IT is no longer the case is because of a few things, one of them being Bioware flat out stating they had to reprioritize their single-player DLC schedule to make the EC, suggesting that no further ending stuff was in the works. If them saying "fans can interpret it in THEIR OWN WAY" ie "not our way" is not a dead give-away then I don't know what is.

It's good that you're trying not to be like everyone else though.

Where did they say this, out of curiosity?

[UrgentArchengel]

I think I want to go back and choose Synthesis, I really don't like the cheesey space magicness of it, but I actually agree with the point it is trying to convey, that it is not right to preserve order through control, and chaos will always end in just that, chao. Synthesis offers the middle ground, but still, it would make more sense to make your point then to play god and screw with DNA.

[Eduadinho]

Man vs Machine was pretty big but the real theme and what makes the ending is the theme of sacrifice.
Spoilers

Grunt can sacrifice himself, Mordin, Legion, Thane, the Primarchs son. So at the very end the choice is do you sacrifice yourself or do you sacrifice a sentient AI race and EDI.

Unity is a massive theme but sacrifices must be made when it comes down to it.

[Zix13]

Eduadinho wrote...

Man vs Machine was pretty big but the real theme and what makes the ending is the theme of sacrifice.
Spoilers

Grunt can sacrifice himself, Mordin, Legion, Thane, the Primarchs son. So at the very end the choice is do you sacrifice yourself or do you sacrifice a sentient AI race and EDI.

Unity is a massive theme but sacrifices must be made when it comes down to it.

Self-sacrifice. Only case where shep is forced to choose to sacrifice a life is on Virmire.

And no. The choice is 
blue: reapers win
green: reapers win
red: reapers die

The Reaper vs Galaxy "theme" > everything else. The synthetics/organics theme is really dealt with as a side-effect of the ending. 

[The Night Mammoth]

Eduadinho wrote...

Man vs Machine was pretty big but the real theme and what makes the ending is the theme of sacrifice.
Spoilers

Grunt can sacrifice himself, Mordin, Legion, Thane, the Primarchs son. So at the very end the choice is do you sacrifice yourself or do you sacrifice a sentient AI race and EDI.

Unity is a massive theme but sacrifices must be made when it comes down to it.

The final mission of ME2 would disagree with that, as would the attitude of a Paragon Shepard. 

[The Night Mammoth]

davishepard wrote...

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

Seems like you're trying to pick a fight with me over the topic title without reading what I'm actually saying.
The proof is in the game scripts. If you think I'm wrong in saying they abandoned the theme of the series in the final few minutes, then prove me wrong. Don't think calling me arrogant somehow destroys the veracity of what I'm saying.

I don't need to prove nothing, because you are wrong as it is. You are totally wrong in saying that you know more that the game creators, no matter the points you make. You are just wrong.

What's the point in posting this crap? 

"You're wrong, because you are" is effectively your argument. 

[Eduadinho]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Eduadinho wrote...

Man vs Machine was pretty big but the real theme and what makes the ending is the theme of sacrifice.
Spoilers

Grunt can sacrifice himself, Mordin, Legion, Thane, the Primarchs son. So at the very end the choice is do you sacrifice yourself or do you sacrifice a sentient AI race and EDI.

Unity is a massive theme but sacrifices must be made when it comes down to it.

The final mission of ME2 would disagree with that, as would the attitude of a Paragon Shepard. 

Games are allowed to have different themes, ME2 is Unity and so is ME3 but they can have other core themes and sacrifice is a massive one is ME3. To answer the Paragon Shepard attitude that's why Sacrificing one race to destroy another is seen as renegade, if Shepard survives as well it is seen as pretty selfish. Dying to control the reapers and protect the galaxy is selfless and more in line with what your old crew was doing. 

[Dridengx]

pistolols wrote...

Personally i think ME2 messed everyone up made everyone think it was all about the characters which was never my take at all and in fact i found ME2 to be rather tedious dealing with all these characters personal problems that i didn't even care about.

I always knew the heart of this was a conflict of man vs machine. And i loved the way the end tied everything together in the form of an AI behind it all... it was pretty mind blowing to behonest.

I some what agree. ME2 seems almost like a long sidequest. I mean we ended ME1 with the reapers are coming!! small victory but they're still out there aaargh.

ME2 starts, we die, we team up TIM,  collectors wiping out human colonies for a human reaper.. your mission is to gather a team that doesn't get along to risk their lives to stop the collectors which happened to be controlled by a reaper that you never kill... it just sounds like a lot of filler. A LOT. Characters loyalty missions seems a bit funny as well. OMG dude the reapers are coming, colonies are being wiped out.. but hey shepard.. ya think you can help me find my father? think you can take me to where I was raised? it all seems a bit selfish.

ME3 was great it went back to ME1 style threat which the franchise should be known for. if anything ME2 could have been ME1 if you think about it and it wouldn't have made much difference.  ME2 was nothing more but a decision game. oooh did you do this or that? well that'll effect some choices in ME3 be it mordin singing or being able to save someone's life. all you need to take  from ME2 was character development and TIM info. 

Modifié par Dridengx, 07 avril 2012 - 09:52 .

[Slash1667]

Averdi wrote...

Slash1667 wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Up until the end of ME3, the organic vs synthetic relationship has been a subplot to the main story, at best. In that, it's like the issues of morality surrounding the genophage or questions of racial superiority/priority via Ashley and/or Cerberus.

The catalyst could have as easily said that the reapers do their thing because advanced organics always manipulate less advanced organics (e.g. salaraians and krogan), and thus should be removed to allow 'natural' organic evolution. That would have had as much support as the organic vs synthetic rationale, though without the additional irony of the reapers themselves being synthetic.....

Actually, following the Catalyst's logic, the Reapers aren't synthetic. They are a hybrid. Using organic matter to create a synthetic appearing creation.

They're synthetic.  As a rule, they exhibit no traits, characteristics, or motivations of the races they exterminate and from which they are 'created.'  They have a few generally uniform profiles and appear unconflicted in their purpose of visiting on subsequent races the genocide that they themselves supposedly recieved.  I've seen no evidence that the 'immortalization' of organic species in reaper form is anything deeper than using organics as partial building components; no more than a plastic lawn chair 'immortalizes' the myriad prehistoric organisms that were converted into petroleum.

The one problem with that example is that the Catalyst itself states that it preserves the harvested in Reaper form. They uplift organics. If we are to take him at face value all we are doing in the synthesis ending is creating a new Reaper race. A race of Hybrids, neither organic or synthetic.

Modifié par Slash1667, 07 avril 2012 - 10:21 .

[EnforcerWRX7]

A bigger reason of why the ending is so broken (besides Casey and company writing it at the last minute and with no help) is because Bioware never had a complete 3 game script.

They wrote the first game as a free standing game with intentions of a second. Then they wrote the second as a bridge to the third without a clear idea of what they were trying to DO in the third. The original idea was something about dark energy but they didn't go with it.


So they get to the third game and start writing all these AWESOME set pieces without a complete script. Then they have to end the game and they slapped on what we got.

The lesson learned?

Write an entire script or have an entire idea laid out FROM DAY 1.  They literally kept writing all these cool pieces and ideas but never had an idea of how to stop it or end it.  That's a serious project management problem.

Modifié par EnforcerWRX7, 07 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[Slash1667]

Turran wrote...

Surely at this point, Bioware know their game better than you? As they have all the theories and ideas they could easily formulate into THEIR universe which would automatically make it cannon?

So really... You clearly don't "get it".

(If you don't like it and they do, we must be missing something)

Actually it means they screwed up in telling the story. The purpose of writing a story is to make sure your reader/player understands, at least on a basic level, that you are trying to say. In this they failed miserably if all the fan feedback is to be taken as valid. I have no reason to believe the feedback isn't valid.

[Averdi]

Slash1667 wrote...

The one problem with that example is that the Catalyst itself satates that it preserves the harvested in Reaper form. They uplift organics. If we are to take him at face value all we are doing in the synthesis ending is creating a new Reaper race. A race of Hybrids, neither organic or synthetic.

He may be internally consistent insofar as that's what he thinks he's doing, but he offers no objective evidence of said uplifting.  Harbinger doesn't even stop by to say, "Hey, I used to be a bunch of emotionally-repressed pointy-eared vulcan nuts who meditated too much, but now I'm a uniform consciousness who loves chocolate, knitting, and rainbows, and I've.....err, we've never been happier!  You haven't lived until you've been dissolved into genetic paste and reaperized!"  The reapers themselves don't celebrate or even acknowledge the species from which they originated.  I get no sense that anything of those races remain, which brings me back to the reapers being synthetic, regardless of their construction process.

As for the synthesis ending it's more logical for a game with a organic vs synthetic main theme, but I don't believe that's what ME3 was about, so it feels out of place and generates more questions here.

Modifié par Averdi, 07 avril 2012 - 10:16 .

[Slash1667]

Eduadinho wrote...

Man vs Machine was pretty big but the real theme and what makes the ending is the theme of sacrifice.
Spoilers

Grunt can sacrifice himself, Mordin, Legion, Thane, the Primarchs son. So at the very end the choice is do you sacrifice yourself or do you sacrifice a sentient AI race and EDI.

Unity is a massive theme but sacrifices must be made when it comes down to it.

If the choice was sacrifice Shepard OR a sentient race, then that would have been fine. Problem is you wind up sacrificing yourself in ALL endings AND screwing everyone over at the same time. Oh and btw you still sacrifice the sentient synthetics after sacrificing Shepard. Sacrifice as the theme for the ending doesn't fly.

[Slash1667]

Averdi wrote...

Slash1667 wrote...

The one problem with that example is that the Catalyst itself satates that it preserves the harvested in Reaper form. They uplift organics. If we are to take him at face value all we are doing in the synthesis ending is creating a new Reaper race. A race of Hybrids, neither organic or synthetic.

He may be internally consistent insofar as that's what he thinks he's doing, but he offers no objective evidence of said uplifting.  Harbinger doesn't even stop by to say, "Hey, I used to be a bunch of emotionally-repressed pointy-eared vulcan nuts who meditated too much, but now I'm a uniform consciousness who loves chocolate, knitting, and rainbows, and I've.....err, we've never been happier!  You haven't lived until you've been dissolved into genetic paste and reaperized!"  The reapers themselves don't celebrate or even acknowledge the species from which they originated.  I get no sense that anything of those races remain, which brings me back to the reapers being synthetic, regardless of their construction process.

As for the synthesis ending it's more logical for a game with a organic vs synthetic main theme, but I don't believe that's what ME3 was about, so it feels out of place and generates more questions here.

In my original statement I said if we take the Catalyst "at face value" they are hybrids. Organic vs Synthetic wasn't the main theme in ME3 in my opinion (you know what they say about opinions). The main theme was overcoming the odds and defeating the Reapers. If we're trying to beat the Reapers why are we listening to one and picking from the choices it gives us?

[Averdi]

Slash1667 wrote...

In my original statement I said if we take the Catalyst "at face value" they are hybrids. Organic vs Synthetic wasn't the main theme in ME3 in my opinion (you know what they say about opinions). The main theme was overcoming the odds and defeating the Reapers. If we're trying to beat the Reapers why are we listening to one and picking from the choices it gives us?

Sorry, I may have misunderstood, and we got caught up in technicalities of language and word choice.  Seems we agree. 

Modifié par Averdi, 07 avril 2012 - 10:39 .

[davishepard]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

davishepard wrote...

The Charnel Expanse wrote...

Seems like you're trying to pick a fight with me over the topic title without reading what I'm actually saying.
The proof is in the game scripts. If you think I'm wrong in saying they abandoned the theme of the series in the final few minutes, then prove me wrong. Don't think calling me arrogant somehow destroys the veracity of what I'm saying.

I don't need to prove nothing, because you are wrong as it is. You are totally wrong in saying that you know more that the game creators, no matter the points you make. You are just wrong.

What's the point in posting this crap? 

"You're wrong, because you are" is effectively your argument. 

I could ask you the exact same thing as why he created this thread. Yet... Why are he wrong? Because he don't know more than the creators of the game, no matter how much scripts he read, study or whatever. 

Modifié par davishepard, 07 avril 2012 - 10:46 .

[DevilBeast]

Slash1667 wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Slash1667 wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Up until the end of ME3, the organic vs synthetic relationship has been a subplot to the main story, at best. In that, it's like the issues of morality surrounding the genophage or questions of racial superiority/priority via Ashley and/or Cerberus.

The catalyst could have as easily said that the reapers do their thing because advanced organics always manipulate less advanced organics (e.g. salaraians and krogan), and thus should be removed to allow 'natural' organic evolution. That would have had as much support as the organic vs synthetic rationale, though without the additional irony of the reapers themselves being synthetic.....

Actually, following the Catalyst's logic, the Reapers aren't synthetic. They are a hybrid. Using organic matter to create a synthetic appearing creation.

They're synthetic.  As a rule, they exhibit no traits, characteristics, or motivations of the races they exterminate and from which they are 'created.'  They have a few generally uniform profiles and appear unconflicted in their purpose of visiting on subsequent races the genocide that they themselves supposedly recieved.  I've seen no evidence that the 'immortalization' of organic species in reaper form is anything deeper than using organics as partial building components; no more than a plastic lawn chair 'immortalizes' the myriad prehistoric organisms that were converted into petroleum.

The one problem with that example is that the Catalyst itself states that it preserves the harvested in Reaper form. They uplift organics. If we are to take him at face value all we are doing in the synthesis ending is creating a new Reaper race. A race of Hybrids, neither organic or synthetic.

So, technically reapers may be cyborgs?? Hmmm...

[Zuka999]

The main theme of the three games is the impending invasion of the Reapers. Where the hell did this organic vs. synthetic crap come from? In case we all forgot, the Reapers weren't even AIs. Its literally spelled out for us in ME2 by Legion:

"Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds uploaded and conjoined in immortal machine bodies. Each a nation."

Sorry, that doesn't sound like the main conflict of the universe is one between organics and synthetics. That sounds like the main conflict of the universe is one between organics and.. more organics.

Every AI that is a source of conflict in the series has redeeming features. You can bring peace to the Geth. EDI becomes a good friend and starts a romance with Joker. All of this stuff is happening.. and its supposed to be about fighting them?

Sorry, no. This series was about an existential threat and unifying diverse peoples in the face of hopelessness. They dropped the ball.

[Slash1667]

Zuka999 wrote...

The main theme of the three games is the impending invasion of the Reapers. Where the hell did this organic vs. synthetic crap come from? In case we all forgot, the Reapers weren't even AIs. Its literally spelled out for us in ME2 by Legion:

"Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds uploaded and conjoined in immortal machine bodies. Each a nation."

Sorry, that doesn't sound like the main conflict of the universe is one between organics and synthetics. That sounds like the main conflict of the universe is one between organics and.. more organics.

Every AI that is a source of conflict in the series has redeeming features. You can bring peace to the Geth. EDI becomes a good friend and starts a romance with Joker. All of this stuff is happening.. and its supposed to be about fighting them?

Sorry, no. This series was about an existential threat and unifying diverse peoples in the face of hopelessness. They dropped the ball.

Yep, whole heartedly agree

[The Interloper]

The "man vs machine" thing went kaplooe the moment the Starchild said the Reapers were anti machine.

[Irishkev]

Slash1667 wrote...

Zuka999 wrote...

The main theme of the three games is the impending invasion of the Reapers. Where the hell did this organic vs. synthetic crap come from? In case we all forgot, the Reapers weren't even AIs. Its literally spelled out for us in ME2 by Legion:

"Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds uploaded and conjoined in immortal machine bodies. Each a nation."

Sorry, that doesn't sound like the main conflict of the universe is one between organics and synthetics. That sounds like the main conflict of the universe is one between organics and.. more organics.

Every AI that is a source of conflict in the series has redeeming features. You can bring peace to the Geth. EDI becomes a good friend and starts a romance with Joker. All of this stuff is happening.. and its supposed to be about fighting them?

Sorry, no. This series was about an existential threat and unifying diverse peoples in the face of hopelessness. They dropped the ball.

Yep, whole heartedly agree

Same thats what I thought as well espically with javaick saying the reason his people failed was because they where all the same no diveristy