168 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Going to list abunch of falacies and then explain why they aren't.


Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont.  They destroy our militaries, which involves killing THEM, and then they harvest our civilians.  Anderson and Hacket mention how they're collecting our world leaders and how they're dealing with our civilians.  Its brought up over vidcom that our world leaders are being indoctrinated to urge people to support the reapers and do as they request of us to avoid bloodshed, just like what Saren tried to convince Shepard of.


Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.


The gun fires infinite bullets.  Yes it does.  Did you play ME1?  Did you talk to Zaeed about Jesse in ME2?  Do you know how these guns ACTUALLY work?  They dont use actual ammunition, when you "reload your gun" you're just fast-cooling it, it's still using the same block of "ammo" that it will use forever.  These guns shave off a tiny shred of metal and fling it using mass effect fields.  This means that your guns never run out of ammunition, they just heat up.  In ME1 you can mod your gun so that it never heats up at the expense of its fire power.  In ME2 Zaeed tells you a story about firing his gun without needing to pop a heat sink and that it broke the gun in the end.  The need to manage heat sinks is a safety mechanism of the gun itself.  A modded gun or a gun that is set to NOT lock up when it overheats would be able to fire forever.  (or until it breaks due to overuse)


Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.  Wrong, for really obvious reasons.  Anderson tells you that the walls are moving, you see the walls move.  you dont see any other paths because they are closed up.  Its told right to your face and people forget about it immediately.  Here look I'll draw you a diagram:



Anderson mentions that he just saw a wall move, which could be a scenario where the red wall, where he started behind, was open, and the green wall, where you start behind, is closed.  there could be many more passages behind every other wall.  Thats what the mention of walls moving is supposed to establish.  How people can not get this is beyond me.


If anyone has anymore feel free to post them.

[legion999]

But Anderson came up after you. How does he get there first? Why doesn't he wait for you?

It's not much of a better fate though is it? Uploaded into a ship to do what? Kill for a few hundred years and sleep for thousands more. Death please. And if their minds are intact why have no Reapers went "Hey this is bull**** we don't want to do this."

Also I've seen a lot of husks and a lot of dead bodies. I doubt they were all soldiers. And being turned into a smoothie and forced to commit genocide at the whims of a moronic AI seems worse than death to me.

[Thornquist]

People just wants a reason to be angry. They want the ending we have to go away, so they rage at every little thing they can see. Alot of the "plotholes" can easily be explained to people, if they just want to listen.

While Im at it, I will bring one of my own.

The relays exploding kills everyone.

How do you know? Its very clear that the Crucible uses technology that is far beyond our understanding, and even in the ME universe. The mere fact that you see people standing up and cheering in London after the wave hits, makes it easy to assume that, no, It does not kill everyone.

Modifié par Thornquist, 07 avril 2012 - 07:13 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

legion999 wrote...

But Anderson came up after you. How does he get there first? Why doesn't he wait for you?

It's not much of a better fate though is it? Uploaded into a ship to do what? Kill for a few hundred years and sleep for thousands more. Death please. And if their minds are intact why have no Reapers went "Hey this is bull**** we don't want to do this."

Also I've seen a lot of husks and a lot of dead bodies. I doubt they were all soldiers. And being turned into a smoothie and forced to commit genocide at the whims of a moronic AI seems worse than death to me.

The beam doesnt take you both to the same spot, anderson says this immediately when you wake up, which explains why he's in a different spot, otherwise he would have landed ontop of you while you were coming to.


Also let me illustrate this differently: Someone tells you they're going to take your books and burn them, you dont know when they're going to get to your library but its innevitable.  Would you rather leave and let these books be burned or archive them digitally and store them on a flash drive so you can save the entire library in one convenient spot.  Sure you lose something by reducing books down to a file on a computer, but at least they arent completely destroyed.

[Kawamura]

Thornquist wrote...

People just wants a reason to be angry. They want the ending we have to go away, so they rage at every little thing they can see. Alot of the "plotholes" can easily be explained to people, if they just want to listen.

While Im at it, I will bring one of my own.

The relays exploding kills everyone.

How do you know? Its very clear that the Crucible uses technology that is far beyond our understanding, and even in the ME universe. The mere fact that you see people standing up and cheering in London after the wave hits, makes it easy to assume that, no, It does not kill everyone.

If the energy is traveling at light speed, it'll hit in about five hours. 

You'd think that a Crucible that uses tech far beyond our understanding would know how silver-bullet reapers, but whatever.

I think part of the rage is that most of the ending is "how do you know?" If I wanted to not know what happened, I just wouldn't ve played. I finished the game to know what happened.

[sistersafetypin]

lol. I... lol.

"They don't KILL them! They Harvest their bodies and preserve their minds!"

Really? Well thanks for clearing that up... Husks sure do seem kind of mindless though...

Modifié par sistersafetypin, 07 avril 2012 - 07:15 .

[Aceor]

Jessica1995 wrote...

*facepalm*

*double facepalm* 

Modifié par Aceor, 07 avril 2012 - 07:16 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Thornquist wrote...

People just wants a reason to be angry. They want the ending we have to go away, so they rage at every little thing they can see. Alot of the "plotholes" can easily be explained to people, if they just want to listen.

While Im at it, I will bring one of my own.

The relays exploding kills everyone.

How do you know? Its very clear that the Crucible uses technology that is far beyond our understanding, and even in the ME universe. The mere fact that you see people standing up and cheering in London after the wave hits, makes it easy to assume that, no, It does not kill everyone.

This is my favorite, because it assumes that the relays explode in the control ending as well, you see energy released but you dont see the explosion.  The citadel doesnt explode in this ending, it closes up, a scene UNIQUE to the control ending.  This ending does not destroy the reaper technology of the citadel or the relays.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

sistersafetypin wrote...

lol. I... lol.

"They don't KILL them! They Harvest their bodies and preserve their minds!"

Really? Well thanks for clearing that up... Husks sure do seem kind of mindless though...

They dont turn everyone into husks, they turn some of us into husks to use as infantry.  Remember what the collectors were doing?  Thats what the reapers are doing.

[2484Stryker]

Nice one, OP, way to ignore the true problems with the ending.

I salute you.

[Fhaarkas]

Thornquist wrote...

People just wants a reason to be angry. They want the ending we have to go away, so they rage at every little thing they can see. Alot of the "plotholes" can easily be explained to people, if they just want to listen.

While Im at it, I will bring one of my own.

The relays exploding kills everyone.

How do you know? Its very clear that the Crucible uses technology that is far beyond our understanding, and even in the ME universe. The mere fact that you see people standing up and cheering in London after the wave hits, makes it easy to assume that, no, It does not kill everyone.

Illusions, Mr. Anderson. Vagaries of perception.

:lol:

Love the OP. I totally forgot about thermal clips.

[shepskisaac]

Add:
- Reapers are not AIs - they have collective organic minds
- TIM can control/indoctrinate Shep & Anderson because the he was researching indoctrination, control, Reaper signals and tech throughout his entire life and especially throughout ME3 and at the end he undergoes the procedure that gives him Reaper implants
- Cronos Station moves (which is why Miranda can't know where it is)
- Anderson tells you that Reapers arrive in London to set up the beam to transport humans to Citadel long before they learn from TIM about Crucible/Citadel connection = they don't retake the Citadel just because it was going to be used against them, it was their plan from the beginning to retake it

Modifié par IsaacShep, 07 avril 2012 - 07:20 .

[adam32867]

eat your heart out. i would like a counter argument for each
https://docs.google....sle=true&pli=1#

[Saul Iscariot]

2484Stryker wrote...

Nice one, OP, way to ignore the true problems with the ending.

I salute you.

These are your problems not the OP's. The assumption that all disgruntled fans share a common ideology of what is wrong with the game is a common misconception.

[The Night Mammoth]

Thornquist wrote...
The relays exploding kills everyone.

How do you know? Its very clear that the Crucible uses technology that is far beyond our understanding, and even in the ME universe. The mere fact that you see people standing up and cheering in London after the wave hits, makes it easy to assume that, no, It does not kill everyone.

The Relay's hadn't exploded at that point. There isn't anything to suggest the situation is different, except some completely speculative energy transfer between Relays explanation. 

No, I'm not arguing that the opposite is conclusively true, just that there isn't anything solid either way. 

[saturos2]

IsaacShep wrote...

Add:
- Reapers are not AIs - they have collective organic minds
- TIM can control/indoctrinate Shep & Anderson because the he was researching indoctrination, control, Reaper signals and tech throughout his entire life and especially throughout ME3 and at the end he undergoes the procedure that gives him Reaper implants
- Cronos Station moves (which is why Miranda can't know where it is)
- Anderson tells you that Reapers arrive in London to set up the beam to transport humans to Citadel long before they learn from TIM about Crucible/Citadel connection = they don't retake the Citadel just because it was going to be used against them, it was their plan from the beginning to retake it

-not entirely true, in ME2 legion states that there are also programs in the reapers that seem sentiant efactively making them cyborgs. so in a way you're right.
-he might have resarched this stuff but there is no indicator that TIM himself is a signal booster or disruptor..
-true.
-then why not take it from the begining and cripple galactic socity by turnig off the relays?

[NYG1991]

Have to disagree with OP about the harvesting part. When a person is melted they're dead. Even if their genetic material is preserved in reaper form that individual is gone. That species is gone.

I get that the catalyst THINKS he's preserving the species by converting them to a reaper, but at the end of the day they're all changed into the same reaper form. After seeing people melted alive at the collector base I'm surprised Shepard didn't call the catalyst on his "helping us ascend".

Every reaper we have contact with shows no sign of retaining anything of what they once were.

[I am KROGAN]

Sounds like you're speculation. None of those questions have hard answers.

I'd much rather be wiped out completely than turned into goo for a giant spaceship to have a hive mind and have to liquify another civilization every 50,000 years.

Glad you're ok with that though OP.

[shepskisaac]

saturos2 wrote...

-not entirely true, in ME2 legion states that there are also programs in the reapers that seem sentiant efactively making them cyborgs. so in a way you're right.
-he might have resarched this stuff but there is no indicator that TIM himself is a signal booster or disruptor..
-true.
-then why not take it from the begining and cripple galactic socity by turnig off the relays?

-I don't remember that but I will assume you're right and yes, they're clearly hubrids but tha organic mind part really makes it a key difference between them and intelligence that's based solely on 0s and 1s and doesn't think like organic intelligence based on DNA in any way
- except for the entire construct, sequence of events and the visuals in this scene? Anderson and Shep are being controlled when TIM is close and alive. Dark veins are on the screen only when TIM is close and alive, they're absent when he's not standing next to them, they disappear after you defeat him. Shep shots Anderson when TIM says "look at the power they have" and raises his hand which has purpule glow
-for the same reason Sovereign wasn't able to do it. They needed someone to get it for them from the inside. They can't just "attack" the Citadel like that. It would close its arms and be impenetrable and unreachable.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 07 avril 2012 - 07:47 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Going to list abunch of falacies and then explain why they aren't.


Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont.  They destroy our militaries, which involves killing THEM, and then they harvest our civilians.  Anderson and Hacket mention how they're collecting our world leaders and how they're dealing with our civilians.  Its brought up over vidcom that our world leaders are being indoctrinated to urge people to support the reapers and do as they request of us to avoid bloodshed, just like what Saren tried to convince Shepard of.


Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.

The difference is insignificant. After they're rendered down, do you see a lot of free will being expressed? 

The gun fires infinite bullets.  Yes it does.  Did you play ME1?  Did you talk to Zaeed about Jesse in ME2?  Do you know how these guns ACTUALLY work?  They dont use actual ammunition, when you "reload your gun" you're just fast-cooling it, it's still using the same block of "ammo" that it will use forever.  These guns shave off a tiny shred of metal and fling it using mass effect fields.  This means that your guns never run out of ammunition, they just heat up.  In ME1 you can mod your gun so that it never heats up at the expense of its fire power.  In ME2 Zaeed tells you a story about firing his gun without needing to pop a heat sink and that it broke the gun in the end.  The need to manage heat sinks is a safety mechanism of the gun itself.  A modded gun or a gun that is set to NOT lock up when it overheats would be able to fire forever.  (or until it breaks due to overuse).

Oh, there's an actual reason for this. I put it down to game mechanics. How many people would ask where Shepard stores his ammo on that battered armour? How many people would complain when their gun can still shoot the Destroy cable when they run out of ammo. 

Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.  Wrong, for really obvious reasons.  Anderson tells you that the walls are moving, you see the walls move.  you dont see any other paths because they are closed up.  Its told right to your face and people forget about it immediately.  Here look I'll draw you a diagram:

I have no problem with the Illusive Man being there. He's indoctrinated after all. 

Anderson's arrival is sketchy. It could be made a lot clearer. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 07 avril 2012 - 07:50 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

NYG1991 wrote...

Have to disagree with OP about the harvesting part. When a person is melted they're dead. Even if their genetic material is preserved in reaper form that individual is gone. That species is gone.

I get that the catalyst THINKS he's preserving the species by converting them to a reaper, but at the end of the day they're all changed into the same reaper form. After seeing people melted alive at the collector base I'm surprised Shepard didn't call the catalyst on his "helping us ascend".

Every reaper we have contact with shows no sign of retaining anything of what they once were.

Theres alot more physicality to your brain than you would want to believe.  Just because you are clynically dead doesnt mean your mind is destroyed.  Reading thoughts is possible because of the fact that your memories and thoughts exist as physical things within your brain.  Check out this video and you might understand what I mean: www.youtube.com/watch

The idea of taking the data from billions of brains and archiving them together is not entirely impossible

[tommythetomcat]

Speculation for everyone at work here

[Mandalore313]

Thank you for your speculations.
What else do you enjoy arguing about?

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

The Night Mammoth wrote...


The difference is insignificant. After they're rendered down, do you see a lot of free will being expressed? 

Well thats more free will with individuality versus consensus through hivemind.  Its quite possible that after spending thousands of years as a reaper the civilization understands the need for thier reaperization.  The idea of concensus determining action is brought up by Legion in ME2 and ME3.  the reapers represent what the geth hope to achieve.