168 réponses à ce sujet

[Averdi]

What evidence or suggestion is there that the minds of 'harvested' organics are preserved, beyond the catalyst or Harbinger implying that the organic species is 'saved through destruction' or 'immortalized'?

[thefallen2far]

Thornquist wrote...

People just wants a reason to be angry. They want the ending we have to go away, so they rage at every little thing they can see. Alot of the "plotholes" can easily be explained to people, if they just want to listen.

....... and shrills are just defending a shoddily constucted story because they're too insecure to acknowledge the emporer has no clothes.

See?  It's not fun when someone belittles you.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Averdi wrote...

What evidence or suggestion is there that the minds of 'harvested' organics are preserved, beyond the catalyst or Harbinger implying that the organic species is 'saved through destruction' or 'immortalized'?

Well that question is the entire point of the ending choice.  I didnt agree with them, which is why i picked the destroy option.  The science behind it is theoretical but not impossible.  Infact its very, very possible with how a human brain works.  It may be how our society ends up in the course of our natural evolution, infact.  Yeah we probably wont look like giant crab monsters but the idea is the same.

[DraCZeQQ]

legion999 wrote...

But Anderson came up after you. How does he get there first? Why doesn't he wait for you?

Well it might went this way, to make sense.

Anderson gets ported AFTER Sheppard, to other room ...

He might get ported closer to the exit or Sheppard passed out for a while during the port.
Andersons crosses to the console room, and then he says the whole thing is moving (moveable part moves to his room, let him cross and then moves to Sheppards room)

Why would moveable part do that? Simpliest explanation is that it can detect movement so something like doors that opens when somebody gets near.

And does this explanation answers why would Reapers let the body transport beam to port so close to ultimate unsecured console that have complete access to Citadel systems? Well no ...

[Reeeen0690]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

legion999 wrote...

But Anderson came up after you. How does he get there first? Why doesn't he wait for you?

Well it might went this way, to make sense.

Anderson gets ported AFTER Sheppard, to other room ...

He might get ported closer to the exit or Sheppard passed out for a while during the port.
Andersons crosses to the console room, and then he says the whole thing is moving (moveable part moves to his room, let him cross and then moves to Sheppards room)

Why would moveable part do that? Simpliest explanation is that it can detect movement so something like doors that opens when somebody gets near.

And does this explanation answers why would Reapers let the body transport beam to port so close to ultimate unsecured console that have complete access to Citadel systems? Well no ...

Agreed not a plothole but still nonsensical... We really dont want anyone to get to this room where they can control the citadel, so lets just guide the 2 people who made it up the beam to that room by moving wall around and opening corridors to it. o_0

[SeanThen1]

Why is Edi alive if you choose destroy?

[Reeeen0690]

Averdi wrote...

What evidence or suggestion is there that the minds of 'harvested' organics are preserved, beyond the catalyst or Harbinger implying that the organic species is 'saved through destruction' or 'immortalized'?

Legion does say that the mind of the reapers was like the geth, many minds in one body

[Averdi]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Averdi wrote...

What evidence or suggestion is there that the minds of 'harvested' organics are preserved, beyond the catalyst or Harbinger implying that the organic species is 'saved through destruction' or 'immortalized'?

Well that question is the entire point of the ending choice.  I didnt agree with them, which is why i picked the destroy option.  The science behind it is theoretical but not impossible.  Infact its very, very possible with how a human brain works.  It may be how our society ends up in the course of our natural evolution, infact.  Yeah we probably wont look like giant crab monsters but the idea is the same.

No, if I were to buy into the catalyst/reaper argument, I might cause me to see the reaper cycle in a less negative light, but it has little to no bearing on the ending choices, all of which stop the reaper cycle.  The illegitimacy of the 'reapers have organic minds' argument, to me, only serves to confirm the reapers as synthetics and increase the irony of the fact that synthetics are killing organics to prevent them from being killed by synthetics meme.

If you're referring to the synthesis ending, there's nothing wrong with that type of solution in other stories, but it's out of place in ME3 and just generates more questions.  What does it exactly mean to synthesize all life?  To pre-synthesized 'minds' intact after, or effectively destroyed and replaced with something new?  If the catalyst can molecularlly rewrite orgainc and syntetics, with all their diversity, on a galactic scale, extremely quickly, then why can't he find a more precise solution to the problem he's ostensibly trying to solve?  That's a ridiculously godlike ability for a character who apparently can't simply root out problems like heretic geth.  If the destory ending won't solve the problem because orgaincs will build more synthetics in the future, then why wouldn't the new 'synthesized' people of the future also build pure synthetics?  If synthesis is carried out through the mass relay network, what about systems without relays, are they 'synthesized?'  It's unknowns like these that would make the Cmdr Shephard I know balk at the three choices and question their premise, not cravenly submit to them.

[Vengal345]

Uh... the gun thing clearly is a narrative mechanic considering many players could not kill marauder shields, and the three husks in 6 shots and have ammo left for the destory ending. That's all that was about but before you get all silly about the guns being able to cool down on their own lets go through the following.

1.) In ME1 no gun could fire continuously without overheating. There are plenty of videos of people shooting the star child for 10 minutes till the crucible is destoryed and game over pops.

2.)
How the new guns work explained to Conrad Verner.

The old system that allowed the guns to cool down on their own was removed so its not possible that the gun could both fire without stopping at all and cooldown on its own. The gun is just a plot device trying to explain it as cannon or a plot hole is moot.

[Reeeen0690]

SeanThen1 wrote...

Why is Edi alive if you choose destroy?

because .................................... PLOTHOLE

[Averdi]

Reeeen0690 wrote...

Averdi wrote...

What evidence or suggestion is there that the minds of 'harvested' organics are preserved, beyond the catalyst or Harbinger implying that the organic species is 'saved through destruction' or 'immortalized'?

Legion does say that the mind of the reapers was like the geth, many minds in one body

All this demonstrates is that reapers contain multiple minds/programs, not that those minds are those of the harvested orgaincs (geth sentience wasn't achieved due to harvesting quarians) or even if they were that they actually inherit anything from the consciences of those minds.  The multiple reaper minds could be a default set of operating systems that each reaper gets after being built.  We have no way to know, but I find the fact that reapers made from species x apparently have no problem wiping out species x+1 in the next cycle as fairly strong evidence that the identity of species x is dead and gone.

[Reeeen0690]

Averdi wrote...

Reeeen0690 wrote...

Averdi wrote...

What evidence or suggestion is there that the minds of 'harvested' organics are preserved, beyond the catalyst or Harbinger implying that the organic species is 'saved through destruction' or 'immortalized'?

Legion does say that the mind of the reapers was like the geth, many minds in one body

All this demonstrates is that reapers contain multiple minds/programs, not that those minds are those of the harvested orgaincs (geth sentience wasn't achieved due to harvesting quarians) or even if they were that they actually inherit anything from the consciences of those minds.  The multiple reaper minds could be a default set of operating systems that each reaper gets after being built.  We have no way to know, but I find the fact that reapers made from species x apparently have no problem wiping out species x+1 in the next cycle as fairly strong evidence that the identity of species x is dead and gone.

Oh I agree they're definatly not the same species any more, the people in the human reaper are DEAD as can be, i was just pointing out Legion implies that their minds exist in some form

[SeanThen1]

Reeeen0690 wrote...

SeanThen1 wrote...

Why is Edi alive if you choose destroy?

because .................................... PLOTHOLE

Yeah. Haven't seen even a decent attempt at this one. I give credit for a lot of explanations even if I think they replace "plothole" with craptastic leap of faith. In this instance though I think it is pretty much open and shut that they messed up.

[Averdi]

Reeeen0690 wrote...

Oh I agree they're definatly not the same species any more, the people in the human reaper are DEAD as can be, i was just pointing out Legion implies that their minds exist in some form

If I recall, at the point in time when Legion can first make those comments, neither he nor we have an inkling that reapers are (can be) constructed by using orgaincs as raw material.  Thus, he stating that those minds exist, he's not suggesting that they minds are those of the harvested organics (in some form).  Harbinger gives the first suggestion of this at the end of the suicide mission with his "those you call reapers are your salvation through destruction" line, which again is simply his assertion.

[Reeeen0690]

Averdi wrote...

Reeeen0690 wrote...

Oh I agree they're definatly not the same species any more, the people in the human reaper are DEAD as can be, i was just pointing out Legion implies that their minds exist in some form

If I recall, at the point in time when Legion can first make those comments, neither he nor we have an inkling that reapers are (can be) constructed by using orgaincs as raw material.  Thus, he stating that those minds exist, he's not suggesting that they minds are those of the harvested organics (in some form).  Harbinger gives the first suggestion of this at the end of the suicide mission with his "those you call reapers are your salvation through destruction" line, which again is simply his assertion.

No its something he says after you release him in ME3 when hes in your war room.

[Grimwick]

 These are fair points OP and true, but that leaves an awful lot of plot holes even still. 

Also I disagree that harvesting isn't killing, it essentially is.
You are taking away the sentience of the organics/synthetics, effectively they can no longer form a conscious which is basically what death is for sapient species.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

SeanThen1 wrote...

Reeeen0690 wrote...

SeanThen1 wrote...

Why is Edi alive if you choose destroy?

because .................................... PLOTHOLE

Yeah. Haven't seen even a decent attempt at this one. I give credit for a lot of explanations even if I think they replace "plothole" with craptastic leap of faith. In this instance though I think it is pretty much open and shut that they messed up.

Heres one: Because joker managed to make it far enough away to just barely save her at the last minute.  (I haven't actually seen edi in any destroy endings, only control and synthesis)

[Reeeen0690]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

SeanThen1 wrote...

Reeeen0690 wrote...

SeanThen1 wrote...

Why is Edi alive if you choose destroy?

because .................................... PLOTHOLE

Yeah. Haven't seen even a decent attempt at this one. I give credit for a lot of explanations even if I think they replace "plothole" with craptastic leap of faith. In this instance though I think it is pretty much open and shut that they messed up.

Heres one: Because joker managed to make it far enough away to just barely save her at the last minute.  (I haven't actually seen edi in any destroy endings, only control and synthesis)

But Joker is hit by the wave which is why he crashes
(EDI seems to come out of the Normandy after destroy if she was part of your final squad)

Modifié par Reeeen0690, 07 avril 2012 - 09:48 .

[Red Dust]

Why is there a huge drawing of a dick in the first post?

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

legion999 wrote...

But Anderson came up after you. How does he get there first? Why doesn't he wait for you?

Well it might went this way, to make sense.

Anderson gets ported AFTER Sheppard, to other room ...

He might get ported closer to the exit or Sheppard passed out for a while during the port.
Andersons crosses to the console room, and then he says the whole thing is moving (moveable part moves to his room, let him cross and then moves to Sheppards room)

Why would moveable part do that? Simpliest explanation is that it can detect movement so something like doors that opens when somebody gets near.

And does this explanation answers why would Reapers let the body transport beam to port so close to ultimate unsecured console that have complete access to Citadel systems? Well no ...

Also if anderson wasnt limping, then he was able to walk faster than shepard so even if they were in rooms the same size at the same end of the room he'd still make it to the console before shepard (he does mention being farther ahead than shepard)
also remember how the mako traveling through the conduit takes you to a different part than saren's geth fleet using the conduit?  technically using a mass relay without an IFF could send you to a random spot within a large area, theoretically shepard got lucky at the end of me1, and anderson and shepard got lucky at the end of me3.  (The conduit in me3 could be programmed to send people to processing centers and not just lodge them inside walls)

[thefallen2far]

Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont.  They destroy our militaries, which involves killing THEM, and then they harvest our civilians.  Anderson and Hacket mention how they're collecting our world leaders and how they're dealing with our civilians.  Its brought up over vidcom that our world leaders are being indoctrinated to urge people to support the reapers and do as they request of us to avoid bloodshed, just like what Saren tried to convince Shepard of.

If by "they won't kill everyone" you mean be turned into something similar to the Keepers or the Collectors, then yes, not everyone would be killed.  It's one of those "fate worse than death" scenarios... so vaguely saying  "Reapers kill everyone" is more us giving htem the benefit of the doubt.

Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.

Hypothetically.... if you believe the genocidal maniacs that your mind is preserved as goo, there is no indication of that having any actual effects.  A peacefaring species that is in harmony with its environment and does not consider creating AI is still harvested ino a Reaper that will still attempt to wipe out an entire civilization whether it wants to or not. 

Secondly, It is NOT definatively better fate than being destroyed by your own creation.  Even if in the worst case scenario, you create a mechanical species that wipes you out.... for WHATEVER hypothetical imagined reason it's not any different than being wiped out by a mechanical species someone else created.  The effect is the same.... YOU'RE. STILL. DEAD.

The gun fires infinite bullets. 

I don't see that as a plot hole.... maybe having the gun there in the first place was weird.....were there any other guns in the transporter?  Why didn't you bring your own gun? 

Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.

1.  He wasn't behind you.  You can look behind you on Earth, and as far as you can look, he's not there.  If he's still at the control point, why would he head towards the beam from the control port.... by himself?  Wouldn't he bring... maybe a team.  If he's a ground general, usually ground generals aren't by themselves at any time.  It leaves the strategist vulnerable to attack.  You were charging with a whole slew of people.... another whole slew of people running towards a beam a la WWI tactics and the only ones to make it through were the commanding officers?   Impossible.  That's a blatant plot device. 

2.  Why would the reapers.... who are all about order.... design a transporter bean that transports dead bodies and prisoners, and having them deposited into random locations on the this massive city like Citadel, some of them walking distance [no, wait, short, "I just lost a 2 pints of blood" walking distance]. to the control panel that controls the entire citadel.... that no one knows about?

3.  TIM being that makes more sense then Anderson.... He was headed to the Citadel and somehow.... informed the Reapers of the Citadel.... which they probably already knew about because they were apparently created by it's God Child living there.... but was able to board late enough to evade the Reapers purging the citadel [which I'm onlly assuming they'd do this because.... why would you bring the one thing that could kill or destroy you to a random planet populated by people who are currently being informed on how to use it, next to a relay that might destroy it  and you altogether {and concentrate all your forces there next to the device that can control or destroy you}.... and not clear out the people inside said device.... that would try to use it to control or destroy you] but early enough to get there before it becomes an impenetrable fortress that can only be accessed through a beam.... unless he went in through the beam and just randomly ended up somewhere which hints this transporter beam ONLY deposits people next to the control panel to the entire station, which is a big a design flaw. .So yeah, him being there is possible but it's still pretty silly. 

Modifié par thefallen2far, 07 avril 2012 - 09:56 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Reeeen0690 wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

SeanThen1 wrote...

Reeeen0690 wrote...

SeanThen1 wrote...

Why is Edi alive if you choose destroy?

because .................................... PLOTHOLE

Yeah. Haven't seen even a decent attempt at this one. I give credit for a lot of explanations even if I think they replace "plothole" with craptastic leap of faith. In this instance though I think it is pretty much open and shut that they messed up.

Heres one: Because joker managed to make it far enough away to just barely save her at the last minute.  (I haven't actually seen edi in any destroy endings, only control and synthesis)

But Joker is hit by the wave which is why he crashes
(EDI seems to come out of the Normandy after destroy if she was part of your final squad)

Yeah that was kind of a joke

thats one that bioware would probably explain in a "conrad verner" sort of way.  one I would like: edi gets damaged but doesnt die because they were able to escape the meat of the destroy wave?  (ship's engines freaked out, but edi managed to not get totally destroyed)

I would like to try out the destroy ending with edi...it would be easy to just splice in the control ending over the destroy one.

maybe bioware will patch the destroy ending to never let edi survive?

[Averdi]

Reeeen0690 wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Reeeen0690 wrote...

Oh I agree they're definatly not the same species any more, the people in the human reaper are DEAD as can be, i was just pointing out Legion implies that their minds exist in some form

If I recall, at the point in time when Legion can first make those comments, neither he nor we have an inkling that reapers are (can be) constructed by using orgaincs as raw material.  Thus, he stating that those minds exist, he's not suggesting that they minds are those of the harvested organics (in some form).  Harbinger gives the first suggestion of this at the end of the suicide mission with his "those you call reapers are your salvation through destruction" line, which again is simply his assertion.

No its something he says after you release him in ME3 when hes in your war room.

My thanks, seems you're correct.  The geth, at least post-suicide mission (via Legion dialogue options), seem to believe that reapers's minds are somehow the harvested orgainic minds, in some form.

I still believe that 'dead and gone' vs 'dead and reaperized' is a distinction without difference, but the games do have some evidence beyond the catalyst and Harbi that reapers do incorporate organic minds, in some form.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Reeeen0690]

Averdi wrote...

My thanks, seems you're correct.  The geth, at least post-suicide mission (via Legion dialogue options), seem to believe that reapers's minds are somehow the harvested orgainic minds, in some form.

I still believe that 'dead and gone' vs 'dead and reaperized' is a distinction without difference, but the games do have some evidence beyond the catalyst and Harbi that reapers do incorporate organic minds, in some form.

Thanks for clarifying.

No prob mate,
We're all still ****ed over

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

thefallen2far wrote...

Hypothetically.... if you believe the genocidal maniacs that your mind is preserved as goo, there is no indication of that having any actual effects.  A peacefaring species that is in harmony with its environment and does not consider creating AI is still harvested ino a Reaper that will still attempt to wipe out an entire civilization whether it wants to or not. 

Secondly, It is NOT definatively better fate than being destroyed by your own creation.  Even if in the worst case scenario, you create a mechanical species that wipes you out.... for WHATEVER hypothetical imagined reason it's not any different than being wiped out by a mechanical species someone else created.  The effect is the same.... YOU'RE. STILL. DEAD.

Yeah but at least the rest of the galaxy doesnt get completely wiped out by YOUR creations.  the reapers leave lesser species alive.  so long as a species doesnt evolve to a state where they can create artificial intelligence capable of destroying EVERY living thing in the galaxy, they can continue to exist in thier present state.  It's a safety mechanism for the rest of organic life.  It would be real ****ty if humanity got obliterated by the geth as soon as they discovered the mass relays on mars.  Imagine how ****ed up that would be.  Yeah the quarians or turians wouldn't be arround to care anymore but the humans would be ****ing pissed.

thefallen2far wrote...

Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.

1.  He wasn't behind you.  You can look behind you on Earth, and as far as you can look, he's not there.  If he's still at the control point, why would he head towards the beam from the control port.... by himself?  Wouldn't he bring... maybe a team.  If he's a ground general, usually ground generals aren't by themselves at any time.  It leaves the strategist vulnerable to attack.  You were charging with a whole slew of people.... another whole slew of people running towards a beam a la WWI tactics and the only ones to make it through were the commanding officers?   Impossible.  That's a blatant plot device. 

2.  Why would the reapers.... who are all about order.... design a transporter bean that transports dead bodies and prisoners, and having them deposited into random locations on the this massive city like Citadel, some of them walking distance [no, wait, short, "I just lost a 2 pints of blood" walking distance]. to the control panel that controls the entire citadel.... that no one knows about?

3.  TIM being that makes more sense then Anderson.... He was headed to the Citadel and somehow.... informed the Reapers of the Citadel.... which they probably already knew about because they were apparently created by it's God Child living there.... but was able to board late enough to evade the Reapers purging the citadel [which I'm onlly assuming they'd do because.... why would you bring the one thing that could kill or destroy you to a random planet populated by people who are currently being informed on how to use it, next to a relay that might destroy it {and concentrate all your forces there next to the device}.... and not clear out the people inside said device.... that would try to use it] but early enough to get there before it becomes an impenetrable fortress that can only be accessed through a beam.... unless he went in through the beam and just randomly ended up somewhere which hints this transporter beam ONLY deposits people next to the control panel to the entire station, which is a big a design flaw. .So yeah, him being there is possible but it's still pretty silly. 

1. well complaining that they didnt animate anderson running is kind of silly.  Anderson is kind of a headstrong guy so I can see him breaking rank and bolting for the beam with the others out of desperation.  Nothing he did would matter if they didnt make it to the citadel.  Anderson would head for the beam in a heartbeat.  (Pretty sure he hops down in the preceeding cutscene before the big run down)  Its improper for the military, but not for who anderson as a character is.

2. the keepers process dead humans into a reaper.  thats what the inner chambers of the citadel do, at least thats what the game seemed to be implying.  (this is another thing they can reitterate through dlc so people get it)  Bonus: When the Citadel is closed up it looks ALOT like the Collector Base.  

3. I like the diagram that was made.  These chambers rotating arround between being closed off or having access to the arms controls.  They'd want TIM (or whatever thier avatar is, such as Saren) to be able to access the central control chamber.  Also it makes sense that there may be other halls that the chambers that saren and anderson arrived in could access, such as reaper processing stations much like the collector base.  "we will find another way" and all.

it was mentioned somewhere that the citadel codex mentions that they can seal off individual arms to protect people that way, one of the twitter responses i've seen read that "its quite possible that the people on the arms could have survived due to that after the destruction of the citadel".  Also keep in mind that from a normal point on the citadel no one is able to access the keeper tunnels in the citadel core.  this is brought up several times throughout all 3 games.  They were setting up the reveal that the citadel is used to process species for the reapers and interface with the crucible if a change in the cycle were required.