168 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Reeeen0690 wrote...

Averdi wrote...

My thanks, seems you're correct.  The geth, at least post-suicide mission (via Legion dialogue options), seem to believe that reapers's minds are somehow the harvested orgainic minds, in some form.

I still believe that 'dead and gone' vs 'dead and reaperized' is a distinction without difference, but the games do have some evidence beyond the catalyst and Harbi that reapers do incorporate organic minds, in some form.

Thanks for clarifying.

No prob mate,
We're all still ****ed over

Yeah but the big thing is that at least the lesser species arent ****ed over.  If the yahg ever evolved to not be horrible jerks they'd probably appreciate that the reapers prevented the last cycle from reaching singularity.  Looking at it wholly from humanity's perspective is 0.000001% selfish.  :E

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 avril 2012 - 10:08 .

[Madecologist]

To the OP:

First: Your counter to "Harvesting people is the same as killing them." Doesn't justify it as an acceptable action to a human or any of the alien races. Perhaps the Catalyst is happy with this conclusion but by god you would expect Shepard to rail on him a little harder for it. Rationalising something doesn't make it suddenly 'right'. To a person such a fate is just as bad as death... if not worst.

Secondly, I did not notice you trying to address the Normandy 'fleeing' the scene or how the heck do your squadmates get back on board the Normandy. Heck how do the ones that were running with you to the Beam that also get hit by the Zap get back to the Normandy.

[Reeeen0690]

No one has managed to address the need for sovereign either. If the Catalyst is the Citadel and controls the Reapers why did Sovereign need to control the Citadel to let them through the Relays?

The Citadel was controlling Sovereign to get him to control the Citadel?

Modifié par Reeeen0690, 07 avril 2012 - 10:21 .

[Oldbones2]

Still waiting fog OP to magically solve my plot holes. Oh well.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Madecologist wrote...

To the OP:

First: Your counter to "Harvesting people is the same as killing them." Doesn't justify it as an acceptable action to a human or any of the alien races. Perhaps the Catalyst is happy with this conclusion but by god you would expect Shepard to rail on him a little harder for it. Rationalising something doesn't make it suddenly 'right'. To a person such a fate is just as bad as death... if not worst.

Well yeah it sucks for humans.  Geth look at it as a positive, hanar probably welcome it.  Maybe by extension drell would as well?  Reaper "cleanup" is something that liara says would take a hundred years.  over that time it's likely to assume that people would form religions based on giving yourself to the reapers, thats kind of there in the game already actually.  It's wrong from our perspective and it would be nice for shepard to contest this, but that ending is really about breaking the cycle and changing it.  all 3 endings change the cycle in some way.  You can destroy the reapers, control them (possibly to focus more on preventing AI from destroying organics, or just to give this cycle a chance at peace), and synthesis, where technology and organic life evolve to wholy understand eachother, it is seen as a "new option" possibly brought on by something developed into the catalyst during its blueprints over the millenia. 

The control and destroy options use technology that is onboard the citadel, but synthesis uses the beam that is ONLY coming from the crucible.  That means the green option is only possible due to something that was developed for the crucible.  The citadel was developed with failsafes to either destroy the reapers or reprogram them for a new goal, but the synthesis is something that the creators of the citadel did not account for, its built into the crucible itself.

Madecologist wrote...

Secondly, I did not notice you trying to address the Normandy 'fleeing' the scene or how the heck do your squadmates get back on board the Normandy. Heck how do the ones that were running with you to the Beam that also get hit by the Zap get back to the Normandy.

Maybe they got injured and joker made a pickup.  Shepard blacks out 3 times during that ending, thats alot of room for additional scenes and time to pass.

Why they're escaping?  Other than "dangerous situation" or "orders" I'm not sure.  We'll have to wait for the dlc to explain the reason for escape.  the reason for pickup is still something we can draw conclusions on, though still making some jumps.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Oldbones2 wrote...

Still waiting fog OP to magically solve my plot holes. Oh well.

hmm

Oldbones2 wrote...

Oh OH oh.


I forgot, the RGC child is basing his so called logic on conclusions that haven't happened. Since he harvests races before synthetics inevitably rise up and inevitably destroy ALL organic life, then he has no proof that the cycle will happen at all.

The only time the 'cycle' has occured for a full turn is when the Reapers and/or the Catalyst first rose up from the organics that created them. And even then they didn't obey the logic that it offers (they didn't wipe out all organic life, they instead sought to preserve it).

You're drawing conclusions on information you dont have.  WE dont know whether previous civilizations developed advanced AI or not, the crucible tells us that all civilizations eventually do, so thats what we have to go on, the collected records of all past life since the creation of the citadel.

but i mean what is that to go on?

Oldbones2 wrote...



I'm sure that I could use my vast imagination to fill in the giant plotholes BW left in the ending, but that wasn't what I paid $85 for.

Still if you want a challenge.



How do you add synthetic DNA to Organics?

I guess maybe you use the crucible, which sends out a signal that the citadel amplifies using mass relays to introduce new components into the dna of all living creatues and the programming of all organics.

i dunno thats just my guess.  you mean how does it work specifically?  Well i can imagine a few ways, which probably means bioware will be able to write a few ways too.  they probably wrote some while making the ending but didnt include them because of some reason or another.  =p

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 avril 2012 - 10:30 .

[Averdi]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Yeah but the big thing is that at least the lesser species arent ****ed over.  If the yahg ever evolved to not be horrible jerks they'd probably appreciate that the reapers prevented the last cycle from reaching singularity.  Looking at it wholly from humanity's perspective is 0.000001% selfish.  :E

My big issue there is Shepard's acceptance of the menu of unpalatable choices.  My paragon Shepard wouldn't accept the predetermined synthetic extermination of orgaincs and thus the choices presented; it's not a zero sum game to him - saving humanity/asari/krogan/turian/quarian doesn't necessarily mean the geth conqure all and wipe out the yahg too.  This abrubt shift in Shepard's demenor and modus operandi is, if not a plot hole, at least a frustrating disconnect.

[tractrpl]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Going to list abunch of falacies and then explain why they aren't.


Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont.  They destroy our militaries, which involves killing THEM, and then they harvest our civilians.  Anderson and Hacket mention how they're collecting our world leaders and how they're dealing with our civilians.  Its brought up over vidcom that our world leaders are being indoctrinated to urge people to support the reapers and do as they request of us to avoid bloodshed, just like what Saren tried to convince Shepard of.


Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.


The gun fires infinite bullets.  Yes it does.  Did you play ME1?  Did you talk to Zaeed about Jesse in ME2?  Do you know how these guns ACTUALLY work?  They dont use actual ammunition, when you "reload your gun" you're just fast-cooling it, it's still using the same block of "ammo" that it will use forever.  These guns shave off a tiny shred of metal and fling it using mass effect fields.  This means that your guns never run out of ammunition, they just heat up.  In ME1 you can mod your gun so that it never heats up at the expense of its fire power.  In ME2 Zaeed tells you a story about firing his gun without needing to pop a heat sink and that it broke the gun in the end.  The need to manage heat sinks is a safety mechanism of the gun itself.  A modded gun or a gun that is set to NOT lock up when it overheats would be able to fire forever.  (or until it breaks due to overuse)


Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.  Wrong, for really obvious reasons.  Anderson tells you that the walls are moving, you see the walls move.  you dont see any other paths because they are closed up.  Its told right to your face and people forget about it immediately.  Here look I'll draw you a diagram:



Anderson mentions that he just saw a wall move, which could be a scenario where the red wall, where he started behind, was open, and the green wall, where you start behind, is closed.  there could be many more passages behind every other wall.  Thats what the mention of walls moving is supposed to establish.  How people can not get this is beyond me.


If anyone has anymore feel free to post them.

Huh, so by destroying the Reapers, not only do you commit genocide on one race, but on potentially millions of races that existed before. Huh. That's a... different perspective I'll have to think about.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Averdi wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Yeah but the big thing is that at least the lesser species arent ****ed over.  If the yahg ever evolved to not be horrible jerks they'd probably appreciate that the reapers prevented the last cycle from reaching singularity.  Looking at it wholly from humanity's perspective is 0.000001% selfish.  :E

My big issue there is Shepard's acceptance of the menu of unpalatable choices.  My paragon Shepard wouldn't accept the predetermined synthetic extermination of orgaincs and thus the choices presented; it's not a zero sum game to him - saving humanity/asari/krogan/turian/quarian doesn't necessarily mean the geth conqure all and wipe out the yahg too.  This abrubt shift in Shepard's demenor and modus operandi is, if not a plot hole, at least a frustrating disconnect.

Well thats the thing, the 3 endings dont lead towards continuin the cycle.  If you dont believe the reapers are right you can change thier programming while sacrificing your life or you can destroy them while sacrificing all synthetics (the geth have reaper code in thier programming now, so they are reapers, edi may also but it isnt clear)  Destroying the geth is a side effect of destroying the reapers. 

if you want to save everyone you can pick the blue ending where you sacrifice yourself to save everyone from the reapers.


its not really as dire as many people are claiming it is, you see.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 avril 2012 - 10:35 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

tractrpl wrote...


Huh, so by destroying the Reapers, not only do you commit genocide on one race, but on potentially millions of races that existed before. Huh. That's a... different perspective I'll have to think about.

Yeah thats why i actually hesitated the first time I made my decision.  I wasnt sure if destroying all archived civilizations was the right thing, but I ultimately decide that my mission was important, and in a moment of selfishness, saw it as my only hope of seeing Liara again  (the other endings are described as total sacrifices on your part, whille the red ending is only a "you might die") my emotions, my duty, and my loyalty to anderson made my decision for me.  I was actually paralyzed with indecision and ended up game overing twice because I had trouble rationalizing a decision towards any of the 3 of them. 

It came down to something beyond my sense of right and wrong for me to make my choice, my own personal feelings about the game.  In that reguard bioware succeeded in the ending.  although I must admit that i felt dissapointed at the brevity of the ending, i didnt feel satisfied when the credits rolled which would be a failure.  (i liked what was there, but had a problem with what WASNT there, which seems to be a pretty common consensus between people who dont want the ending turned into something else)

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 avril 2012 - 10:40 .

[Averdi]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

if you want to save everyone you can pick the blue ending where you sacrifice yourself to save everyone from the reapers.


its not really as dire as many people are claiming it is, you see.

Well, can't agree there.  The destruction of the mass relay network (irrepective of whether the relays blow up the systems they are in) is pretty much the deal breaker for me.  Without that galactic civilization is effectively doomed for the foreseeable future.  But that's a different thread.

[NormanRawn]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

ryuasiu wrote...

um, no...there is no second bridge, at all. there is only one bridge leading to the one room. I even went back to look, didnt find anything of what your talking about.

Well thats because THE WALL MOVED TO BLOCK THE SPACE.

i just said that.  like litterally in the space before what you typed.

anderson just said it too.

how did you forget immediately.

ryuasiu wrote...

To me melt someone down and forcing me to become a monster that's sole purpose is to either kill or harvest my own or other 
civilizations  for
as long as I exisit. Your right, thats not the same as killing me.
Killing me would be the perfered option out of those two options.

Tell that to the geth.  Typically a species will look at evolution as a negative because it goes against thier held beliefs.  Look at our response to stem cells.  Would digitizing the human brain be looked at in the same way?  What about cloning?  they go against what we are, but are they wrong or not?  Finding it wrong is fine, that doesnt make it a plothole.  The plot supports it, but natural human emotion disagrees with it as an answer.

This is not a justification for murder. To preserve us in a form that does not represent what we truly were. This is against what ANY race would accept. This is not evolution, it's extinction.

And if the races melded mind really was preserved, how do you think it would react? It would kill every other Reaper in sight for what has been done to it. It wouldnt last 5 minutes as a Reaper, before this happens.

So I honestly think nothing about the race is preserved, but the genetic material.


And the plot hole is the fact they tried to explain the Reaper motivations at all. Considering for 2 games, they stated it would be beyond our comprehension.

Beyond our comprehenion was acceptable, it made them interesting, fearful, and a true villain. Look at the Joker from Batman, he has no motivation behind anything he does,not money, not power, he just finds it fun. And it makes him even more of a villain.

And those who wanted it explained, didn't expect the explaination to be so poorly justified.

[tractrpl]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

tractrpl wrote...


Huh, so by destroying the Reapers, not only do you commit genocide on one race, but on potentially millions of races that existed before. Huh. That's a... different perspective I'll have to think about.

Yeah thats why i actually hesitated the first time I made my decision.  I wasnt sure if destroying all archived civilizations was the right thing, but I ultimately decide that my mission was important, and in a moment of selfishness, saw it as my only hope of seeing Liara again  (the other endings are described as total sacrifices on your part, whille the red ending is only a "you might die") my emotions, my duty, and my loyalty to anderson made my decision for me.  I was actually paralyzed with indecision and ended up game overing twice because I had trouble rationalizing a decision towards any of the 3 of them. 

It came down to something beyond my sense of right and wrong for me to make my choice, my own personal feelings about the game.  In that reguard bioware succeeded in the ending.  although I must admit that i felt dissapointed at the brevity of the ending, i didnt feel satisfied when the credits rolled which would be a failure.  (i liked what was there, but had a problem with what WASNT there, which seems to be a pretty common consensus between people who dont want the ending turned into something else)

I suppose I would consider my own life (and the feelings of my loved one) unimportent compared to the lives of the galaxy. I chose control, but in my "headcanon" I sent the entire Reaper fleets into the nearest star, destroying them all. Until Bioware tells me that "Shepard can't do that", then that's what happens. I suppose we'll see with the extended cut. So, basically I chose a destroy option that doesn't include destroying the Geth and EDI. However, if they tell me that I basically can't do things that way, then maybe I'll choose destroy, but I can't see how it matters. They may choose not to script that kind of ending, but I don't see how I can't initiate self destruct on every single Reaper with control.

[Ultra Prism]

these are simple plotholes which i didn't bother much that fact .... Joker fleeing with my LI ... WTS ... that massive plothole ... she got rescued from earth and to normandy what the ...

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Averdi wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

if you want to save everyone you can pick the blue ending where you sacrifice yourself to save everyone from the reapers.


its not really as dire as many people are claiming it is, you see.

Well, can't agree there.  The destruction of the mass relay network (irrepective of whether the relays blow up the systems they are in) is pretty much the deal breaker for me.  Without that galactic civilization is effectively doomed for the foreseeable future.  But that's a different thread.

But the relays DONT explode in the blue ending, and the citadel explicitly survives (it closes back up) the relays are only destroyed in red and green.

also a bioware tweet brings this up: theres alot of dead reapers lieing arround in the red ending that can potentially be used to develop new relay technology. 

so really theres good in both of those.  (in green and blue the reapers are no longer killing us, which means they may rebuild the network)

Theres also the arguement that FTL travel is STILL possible, just that without a properly mapped route you will not be able to vent your core and could end up marrooned or melting your crew.  (Relays are just safer and faster versions of FTL)

[lillitheris]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont.

Yeah, they do.

Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.

No. They supposedly preserve some sort of racial memory and characteristics, but none of the individual streams of consciousness survive. Id est, everyone dies.

Also, I don't think anyone's calling those plot holes…Perhaps the blind acceptance thereof without adequate reasoning is one, though.

The gun fires infinite bullets.  Yes it does.  Did you play ME1?  Did you talk to Zaeed about Jesse in ME2?  Do you know how these guns ACTUALLY work?  They dont use actual ammunition, when you "reload your gun" you're just fast-cooling it, it's still using the same block of "ammo" that it will use forever.

Theoretically, this should be the case. It would be idiotic to completely remove the ability to just cool the weapon down. BUT, that option's absent in ME2 and ME3. So, either you have a plot hole of:

A) Why the gun in the end has infinite bullets; or
Why none of the other guns in the last two games do.

Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.  Wrong, for really obvious reasons.  Anderson tells you that the walls are moving, you see the walls move.

Anderson still came up after. It's not as significant as many of the others, certainly, but it remains an inexplicable turn of events. Overlookable, unless you happen to subscribe to Indoc.

Modifié par lillitheris, 07 avril 2012 - 10:50 .

[Legendaryred]

This is pure speculation, after all Walters wanted the ending of ME3 to be "LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE".

[JohnZord]

Why is Joker fleeing? Where is he going?

There's no way he knows what shepard was told. Even if he did, they're stranded on a far away planet with no way of reaching another solar system since the relays are gone. And you can't repopulate with a handful of people.

No one wins.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

NormanRawn wrote...

This is not a justification for murder. To preserve us in a form that does not represent what we truly were. This is against what ANY race would accept. This is not evolution, it's extinction.

Sounds pretty right wing to me hur hur hur

in all seriousness, its entirely possible for a species to reach this conclusion.  But none of the endings are about agreeing to that.

NormanRawn wrote...
And if the races melded mind really was preserved, how do you think it would react? It would kill every other Reaper in sight for what has been done to it. It wouldnt last 5 minutes as a Reaper, before this happens.

Well obviuosly they they wouldnt activate its weapons systems under those conditions.  (the reaper core lives inside the reaper ship, remember the human reaper at the end of ME2?)  Not to say that the reapers dont have failsafe conditioning in place to prevent that.  Also theres the idea that its a HYBRID of organic and synthetic construction, which basically says right there that the reaper isnt wholly run by its organic elements.  Theres alot to explore here and I hope bioware goes deep into it in the ending.

NormanRawn wrote...
And the plot hole is the fact they tried to explain the Reaper motivations at all. Considering for 2 games, they stated it would be beyond our comprehension.

Beyond our comprehenion was acceptable, it made them interesting, fearful, and a true villain. Look at the Joker from Batman, he has no motivation behind anything he does,not money, not power, he just finds it fun. And it makes him even more of a villain.

And those who wanted it explained, didn't expect the explaination to be so poorly justified.

Joker has motivation, its just beyond most people's comprehension because most people dont understand the criminal mind.  Joker enjoys hurting people and making people hurt eachother.  he gets off on it.  Well written joker stories understand his motivation and thats what makes these stories so legendary in the batman franchise.  ****ty joker stories treat him as one dimensionally as you described him and are not held up on the level of "the dark knight" or "the killing joke"

Its not poorly justified, its out of necessity.  Like cutting off someone's leg so that it doesnt kill them (an npc subplot that you encounter at the hospital)  its not moraly right, its something that that civilization realised "had to be done".  They had to prevent civilizations capable of creating something that could destroy EVERYTHING from doing that.

[Averdi]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

But the relays DONT explode in the blue ending, and the citadel explicitly survives (it closes back up) the relays are only destroyed in red and green.

also a bioware tweet brings this up: theres alot of dead reapers lieing arround in the red ending that can potentially be used to develop new relay technology. 

so really theres good in both of those.  (in green and blue the reapers are no longer killing us, which means they may rebuild the network)

Theres also the arguement that FTL travel is STILL possible, just that without a properly mapped route you will not be able to vent your core and could end up marrooned or melting your crew.  (Relays are just safer and faster versions of FTL)

The versions of the control ending I saw on youtube showed the relay (at least the Charon one) exploding, though I grant that the citadel didn't blow up.

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I read many of the suggestions on how it isn't all doom and gloom, including non-relay FTL, and been unconvinced.  Destruction of the relay network is a deal-breaker for me; in my opinion it effectively ends the ME environment.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

[quote]lillitheris wrote...

[quote]Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont. [/quote]

Yeah, they do.
[/quote]
rofl so you just completely ignored the part where anderson tells you that theyre not killing everyone and are harvesting our civilians?  (i am making a distinction.  Killing and archiving are similar but different.)

[quote]lillitheris wrote...

[quote]Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds. [/quote]

No. They supposedly preserve some sort of racial memory and characteristics, but none of the individual streams of consciousness survive. Id est, everyone dies.[/quote]

You can argue individuals dieing, but culture is archived, what we are as a people, thats the intent of reaperization.  Creating a library of civilizations.  Yes its immoral but people also look at cloning as immoral too.  I'm not taking sides, I'm just stating why they did what they did and what it means.  Theres plenty of scifi written on this concept.


[quote]lillitheris wrote...[quote]The gun fires infinite bullets.  Yes it does.  Did you play ME1?  Did you talk to Zaeed about Jesse in ME2?  Do you know how these guns ACTUALLY work?  They dont use actual ammunition, when you "reload your gun" you're just fast-cooling it, it's still using the same block of "ammo" that it will use forever.[/quote]

Theoretically, this should be the case. It would be idiotic to completely remove the ability to just cool the weapon down. BUT, that option's absent in ME2 and ME3. So, either you have a plot hole of:

A) Why the gun in the end has infinite bullets; or
Why none of the other guns in the last two games do. [/quote]

Actually the Prothean rifle you get in from ashes can fire without using clips, you just have to let it cool itself off.


[quote]lillitheris wrote...
[b]Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.  Wrong, for really obvious reasons.  Anderson tells you that the walls are moving, you see the walls move.
[/quote]

Anderson still came up after. It's not as significant as many of the others, certainly, but it remains an inexplicable turn of events. Overlookable, unless you happen to subscribe to Indoc.
[/quote]
Right but anderson ended up in a different spot than you did, also he wasnt limping ,which means he was able to walk MUCH faster than you were.

that ones a pretty easy one.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 07 avril 2012 - 11:05 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Averdi wrote...

The versions of the control ending I saw on youtube showed the relay (at least the Charon one) exploding, though I grant that the citadel didn't blow up.

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I read many of the suggestions on how it isn't all doom and gloom, including non-relay FTL, and been unconvinced.  Destruction of the relay network is a deal-breaker for me; in my opinion it effectively ends the ME environment.

You should look closer, in both the good and bad blue ending the relay does not get exploded/destroyed.

[Dominator24]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Reeeen0690 wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

SeanThen1 wrote...

Reeeen0690 wrote...

SeanThen1 wrote...

Why is Edi alive if you choose destroy?

because .................................... PLOTHOLE

Yeah. Haven't seen even a decent attempt at this one. I give credit for a lot of explanations even if I think they replace "plothole" with craptastic leap of faith. In this instance though I think it is pretty much open and shut that they messed up.

Heres one: Because joker managed to make it far enough away to just barely save her at the last minute.  (I haven't actually seen edi in any destroy endings, only control and synthesis)

But Joker is hit by the wave which is why he crashes
(EDI seems to come out of the Normandy after destroy if she was part of your final squad)

Yeah that was kind of a joke

thats one that bioware would probably explain in a "conrad verner" sort of way.  one I would like: edi gets damaged but doesnt die because they were able to escape the meat of the destroy wave?  (ship's engines freaked out, but edi managed to not get totally destroyed)

I would like to try out the destroy ending with edi...it would be easy to just splice in the control ending over the destroy one.

maybe bioware will patch the destroy ending to never let edi survive?

What a pile of bull..... sorry but Im naming it as I see it.
maybe maybe and maybe
And maybe its just that a plothole and nothing else.

[Averdi]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Averdi wrote...

The versions of the control ending I saw on youtube showed the relay (at least the Charon one) exploding, though I grant that the citadel didn't blow up.

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I read many of the suggestions on how it isn't all doom and gloom, including non-relay FTL, and been unconvinced.  Destruction of the relay network is a deal-breaker for me; in my opinion it effectively ends the ME environment.

You should look closer, in both the good and bad blue ending the relay does not get exploded/destroyed.

2:10 to 2:17.  What am I missing?

[NormanRawn]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

NormanRawn wrote...

This is not a justification for murder. To preserve us in a form that does not represent what we truly were. This is against what ANY race would accept. This is not evolution, it's extinction.

Sounds pretty right wing to me hur hur hur

in all seriousness, its entirely possible for a species to reach this conclusion.  But none of the endings are about agreeing to that.

NormanRawn wrote...
And if the races melded mind really was preserved, how do you think it would react? It would kill every other Reaper in sight for what has been done to it. It wouldnt last 5 minutes as a Reaper, before this happens.

Well obviuosly they they wouldnt activate its weapons systems under those conditions.  (the reaper core lives inside the reaper ship, remember the human reaper at the end of ME2?)  Not to say that the reapers dont have failsafe conditioning in place to prevent that.  Also theres the idea that its a HYBRID of organic and synthetic construction, which basically says right there that the reaper isnt wholly run by its organic elements.  Theres alot to explore here and I hope bioware goes deep into it in the ending.

NormanRawn wrote...
And the plot hole is the fact they tried to explain the Reaper motivations at all. Considering for 2 games, they stated it would be beyond our comprehension.

Beyond our comprehenion was acceptable, it made them interesting, fearful, and a true villain. Look at the Joker from Batman, he has no motivation behind anything he does,not money, not power, he just finds it fun. And it makes him even more of a villain.

And those who wanted it explained, didn't expect the explaination to be so poorly justified.

Joker has motivation, its just beyond most people's comprehension because most people dont understand the criminal mind.  Joker enjoys hurting people and making people hurt eachother.  he gets off on it.  Well written joker stories understand his motivation and thats what makes these stories so legendary in the batman franchise.  ****ty joker stories treat him as one dimensionally as you described him and are not held up on the level of "the dark knight" or "the killing joke"

Its not poorly justified, its out of necessity.  Like cutting off someone's leg so that it doesnt kill them (an npc subplot that you encounter at the hospital)  its not moraly right, its something that that civilization realised "had to be done".  They had to prevent civilizations capable of creating something that could destroy EVERYTHING from doing that.

"Joker enjoys hurting people and making people hurt eachother.  he gets off on it."

That is exactly what I meant by finding it fun. "gets off on it" is just another way of saying what I did. And we did comprehend his motivations, humans wrote the damn character, we just don't find him morally right, but we understand him.

Just like the Reapers motivations are morally unthinkable, but we CAN comprehend them. and that is a violation of what the Reapers stood for.


"Also theres the idea that its a HYBRID of organic and synthetic
construction, which basically says right there that the reaper isnt
wholly run by its organic elements."

Which is the problem, the species isn't preserved, it's modified and forced to think as the Reapers do. This is not preserving a species, it's a way to silence it, using synthetic components.