168 réponses à ce sujet

[lillitheris]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

rofl so you just completely ignored the part where anderson tells you that theyre not killing everyone and are harvesting our civilians?  (i am making a distinction.  Killing and archiving are similar but different.)

No, they're the same, because:

You can argue individuals dieing,

This.

but culture is archived, what we are as a people, thats the intent of reaperization.  Creating a library of civilizations.  Yes its immoral but people also look at cloning as immoral too.  I'm not taking sides, I'm just stating why they did what they did and what it means.  Theres plenty of scifi written on this concept.

Doesn't matter. I get why they think it's a good idea, but the end result is that all the individuals die. I'm not taking sides either, just explaining why your contention is incorrect.

Actually the Prothean rifle you get in from ashes can fire without using clips, you just have to let it cool itself off.

That's true. But the weapon used isn't one. Like I said, you have to accept one of those two as plot holes. An insignificant one, but you brought it up.

Right but anderson ended up in a different spot than you did, also he wasnt limping ,which means he was able to walk MUCH faster than you were.

that ones a pretty easy one.

We don't really know if he did. I'm not sure why the ray would transport people into different places. It's feasible, but there's no obvious explanation for it, which means that it's a plot hole.

[Dominator24]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

The gun fires infinite bullets.  Yes it does.  Did you play ME1?  Did you talk to Zaeed about Jesse in ME2?  Do you know how these guns ACTUALLY work?  They dont use actual ammunition, when you "reload your gun" you're just fast-cooling it, it's still using the same block of "ammo" that it will use forever.

Theoretically, this should be the case. It would be idiotic to completely remove the ability to just cool the weapon down. BUT, that option's absent in ME2 and ME3. So, either you have a plot hole of:

A) Why the gun in the end has infinite bullets; or
Why none of the other guns in the last two games do.

[b]Actually the Prothean rifle you get in from ashes can fire without using clips, you just have to let it cool itself off.

Prothean, No othere gun behave like this in game.

[Vanek86]

Hi OP plz use fraps to show me where Andersons super secret doorway is exactly. k thanks

[Zofiya]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Its quite possible that after spending thousands of years as a reaper the civilization understands the need for thier reaperization.

It's also possible that after spending thousands of years as a Reaper, the civilization has been 100% indoctrinated to believe whatever Star Child wants them to believe.

After all, indoctrination is supposedly irreversible, degrades the capacity for a person to act with free will, eventually degrades their capacity to function, and is apparently constantly acting on anyone in close proximity to a Reaper.

I like to think that somewhere, there's a Reaper whose indoctrination tech doesn't work right, so instead of reaping, it spends most of its time thinking that it's a potted plant, except on Wednesdays, when it is a biscuit.

That's assuming that one accepts the idea that organic consciousness is in any way preserved in Reaper form, which I do not, because...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Harvesting people is the same as killing them. Not exactly true. They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds. Previous civilizations live on as reapers. It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are. Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids. Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.

This is simply wishful thinking. Yes, our thoughts and memories are physical -- almost all current neuropsychological theory points to a biological basis for consciousness, even for what we might consider a soul, even if we haven't quite identified it yet. But it's that very physicality that makes the idea of the Reapers' mass-consciousness too fantastic to accept.

There is a concept called neural plasticity (or neuroplasticity), which is the brain's ability to adapt to physiological changes. Plasticity is what makes us able to learn, but it also makes our brains resilient, because the brain can "rewire" itself in the event of injury. However, there is a limit to this plasticity. The brain might be able to rewire existing pathways, or repurpose old ones if one pathway is damaged, but this still requires a functioning neural network. Neurons have to be able to communicate, they have to be able to grow and change, which requires a complex biological support system, including transporter proteins, neurotrophins, neurotransmitters, and more basic things like oxygen and energy.

You cannot just mash up neurons in a test tube and expect them to function. What happens when you homogenize neural material is you get a pink, gelatinous paste that smells really gross and in no way resembles a brain. The cells are destroyed. So no more consciousness.

Since Reapers melt down their victims and reduce them to genetic paste, rather than extracting and preserving the brain intact, it is incredibly difficult to believe that the process somehow preserves neurons; even if it does, once they are separated and mixed together in the storage vats (which they are, according to the codex), there is virtually no way that neurons could continue to operate in such a way as to reproduce individual consciousness.

There is also the fact that the game refers to "genetic material" rather than "nerual material", which is a very different thing. As far as we know, you cannot produce consciousness from DNA. You cannot even retrive memories from DNA, because DNA does not store memories. Only the brain stores memories. Once the brain is gone, you can't get those memories back. You can't replicate the consciousness of an individual from DNA -- especially because we are formed as much by our experiences as by our genetic makeup; DNA is just a template that we build on through learning.

I am willing to suspend my disbelief and accept eezo, and asari biology, and universal translators, and even synthetic hybrids. But "preserving" a species in vitro by liquifying their bodies, and then claiming that their minds are still there? No. At best, perhaps neruonal patterns are replicated in a synthetic network before death, essentially "uploading" organic minds to the machine; whether this is preferable to death really depends on quality of life, and whether or not you're willing to be just a small part of a gestalt machine consciousness for the rest of ever.

Personally, I'd rather take my chances with death.

ETA: The value of "archiving" a civilization is arguable. Why archive it at all, and why only one species? What is valuable about that species, and to whom is it valuable? The process of evolution sees species flourish and perish all the time, with no concern for whether or not that species leaves a mark, or a record. So why does Star Child care?

Modifié par aristaea, 07 avril 2012 - 11:43 .

[Byronic-Knight]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont.  They destroy our militaries, which involves killing THEM, and then they harvest our civilians.  Anderson and Hacket mention how they're collecting our world leaders and how they're dealing with our civilians.  Its brought up over vidcom that our world leaders are being indoctrinated to urge people to support the reapers and do as they request of us to avoid bloodshed, just like what Saren tried to convince Shepard of.


Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.

So. . . we should have let Saren do what he was doing, not prepared for the Reapers, and just accepted the fate of becoming a transcendent hive-mind? 

It doesn't matter if we're technically "dead" because we lose our individuality. We become no different than the broad consciousness of the Geth---the only advantage of which would be debate, as you would form consensus at the speed of light. And my resolution of the Geth/Quarian conflict involved the Geth becoming individuated beings, something that was seen as a good thing. 

That's completely ignoring the fact that Jarvik admitted that the reason the Protheans failed to stop the Reapers was because they were too homogenous and not diverse enough. 

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote... 

The gun fires infinite bullets.  Yes it does.  Did you play ME1?  Did you talk to Zaeed about Jesse in ME2?  Do you know how these guns ACTUALLY work?  They dont use actual ammunition, when you "reload your gun" you're just fast-cooling it, it's still using the same block of "ammo" that it will use forever.  These guns shave off a tiny shred of metal and fling it using mass effect fields.  This means that your guns never run out of ammunition, they just heat up.  In ME1 you can mod your gun so that it never heats up at the expense of its fire power.  In ME2 Zaeed tells you a story about firing his gun without needing to pop a heat sink and that it broke the gun in the end.  The need to manage heat sinks is a safety mechanism of the gun itself.  A modded gun or a gun that is set to NOT lock up when it overheats would be able to fire forever.  (or until it breaks due to overuse)

Then why was it altered in ME2? Why wasn't I given the option of waiting for the weapon to cool down of its own power (like in ME1), only ejecting a thermal clip if I went all Rambo and the gun overheated? 

That would have solved the problem of completely changing the manner in which preëstablished technology worked, and it would have instead seemed as a logical progression in the development of that technology.

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote... 

Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.  Wrong, for really obvious reasons.  Anderson tells you that the walls are moving, you see the walls move.  you dont see any other paths because they are closed up.  Its told right to your face and people forget about it immediately.  Here look I'll draw you a diagram:


Anderson mentions that he just saw a wall move, which could be a scenario where the red wall, where he started behind, was open, and the green wall, where you start behind, is closed.  there could be many more passages behind every other wall.  Thats what the mention of walls moving is supposed to establish.  How people can not get this is beyond me. If anyone has anymore feel free to post them.

That still doesn't explain how the Illusive Man showed up out of nowhere. 

Was he on the Citadel before the Reapers moved it? Did he get there later using some stealth shuttle---completely eluding the massive armada and war going on outside?

I just want it to make sense.

And honestly, that one only bothers me as much as the part in 2 where suddenly your entire squad can fit on the shuttle: bizarre, but no biggie. 

Modifié par Byronic-Knight, 08 avril 2012 - 12:01 .

[phagus]

Reapers Kill everyone/Harvesting people is the same as killing them. : Yes they do otherwise why use massive weapons at close range in built up areas like say at beginning of game in Canada? Destruction on this scale will kill millions, ok some might have survived to be harvested later and turned into bloody goo to be pumped into new Reapers but I don't regard that as living. The harvesting taking place in London at the end of the game results in rooms full of corpses being played with by keepers as Shep finds out when he takes the beam to the Citadel. I didnt see any one alive there.

The gun fires infinite bullets.: simple game mechanics, you only need to pull the trigger a dozen times at most to get past a few husks and maurauder shields , so the powers ammo etc have to be disabled otherwise its very easy to hit a concussive shot, carnage, throw,  biotic charge etc (depending on class) and get past them. The gun/powers aren't needed after you reach the beam other than to fire a couple of shots at most.(at Anderson and TIM if you pick that option)(and a few more if you choose destroy)

Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere. : Turn around when your on the bridge to the panel room (so that the way up to Anderson and panel room is behind you and the path down from the room of corpses is infront) and if you look to your left you will see a door like the one you just came out of plus a bridge leading down towards the panel room like the one your on, and there is light shining on it which could only be coming from the panel room where Anderson is.(If you look right you see a similar door but no bridge leading down just a waterfall of blood) So Anderson could have came from that room on the left. TIM comes from behind you so must have come in the same way Shep did.

Non of these are plot holes to me. A few of mine that are:

Whats the point of ME1?: Catalyst could have opened the Citadel relay. If say Catalyst was asleep at the time and couldn't. Saren could have went to the citadel and opened the relay himself,(or got someone with access indoctrinated to do it for him,like Udina) instead of pissing around with the geth and looking for the conduit, and waiting for Shep to find evidence and get his Spectre status revoked. Why does soveriegn need the Geth when Saren a spectre has access to the panel that controls the citadel relay? (Also Saren could have just flown Sovereign to the citadel and parked it. Closed the citadels arms and opened the relay, nobody would have known what Sovereign was if he hadn't attacked Eden Prime with the geth and got Shep involved. Even if a few ships like the Destiny Ascension realised what was happening it would have been too late)

If catalyst created the Reapers why make them such sadistic b#####ds?: Harvesting can be done without all the sick abominations and husks and massive slaughter.. heres an idea use indoctrination  with machines like object Rho to get the populations to destroy all trace of their civilisation and then walk happily into harvesting machines to be turned into Reapers. No massive battles with the Reapers, no ruins, scarred planets, no nearly dead Reapers for people to find IFF's, beacons, conduits etc

Why when the Reapers have control of the citadel do they forget to turn off mass relays?: Checkmate in one move. Your fleet and crucible are stuck at FTL speed. Getting to Earth in time to do anything is out of the window and the Reapers can destroy the slow fleet when they feel like it.

Now can anyone help explain my plotholes?

Modifié par phagus, 08 avril 2012 - 01:22 .

[AtlasMickey]

You're awesome, OP. I've been saying many of the same things but very few people have been willing to actually engage the story as it's told. They straight up deny it.

[legion999]

AtlasMickey wrote...

You're awesome, OP. I've been saying many of the same things but very few people have been willing to actually engage the story as it's told. They straight up deny it.

You do realise that a lot ifthe OP's 'things' have been debunked right?

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Averdi wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Averdi wrote...

The versions of the control ending I saw on youtube showed the relay (at least the Charon one) exploding, though I grant that the citadel didn't blow up.

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I read many of the suggestions on how it isn't all doom and gloom, including non-relay FTL, and been unconvinced.  Destruction of the relay network is a deal-breaker for me; in my opinion it effectively ends the ME environment.

You should look closer, in both the good and bad blue ending the relay does not get exploded/destroyed.

2:10 to 2:17.  What am I missing?

In the other endings the relays explode spectacularly.  In this one it releases energy but does not explode.  This would not be notable except for the fact that the citadel is not destroyed either.  In all other endings the citadel is destroyed by the blast and then the relays explode.  in control the citadel does not explode, which emphasizes them not showing the relays exploding. 

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Vanek86 wrote...

Hi OP plz use fraps to show me where Andersons super secret doorway is exactly. k thanks

oh wait hang on let me explain where the escape pods were in me2's intro

oh wait behind a wall

oh okay.

anderson's spot was probably behind a wall on the left or right side of the hallway before the opening
thats basically what the theory is and what is easily explained by him saying things like "I think i'm farther ahead than you" and "I just saw the walls move".

what part of "the walls moved" do you not get"  After the walls moved to let him into the control center the walls moved AGAIN so that you wouldnt be able to see where his entry point was.

y'know what moving walls are, right?

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

aristaea wrote...

This is simply wishful thinking. Yes, our thoughts and memories are physical -- almost all current neuropsychological theory points to a biological basis for consciousness, even for what we might consider a soul, even if we haven't quite identified it yet. But it's that very physicality that makes the idea of the Reapers' mass-consciousness too fantastic to accept.

Souls are fake sorry they dont exist.    theres no such thing

aristaea wrote...

There is a concept called neural plasticity (or neuroplasticity), which is the brain's ability to adapt to physiological changes. Plasticity is what makes us able to learn, but it also makes our brains resilient, because the brain can "rewire" itself in the event of injury. However, there is a limit to this plasticity. The brain might be able to rewire existing pathways, or repurpose old ones if one pathway is damaged, but this still requires a functioning neural network. Neurons have to be able to communicate, they have to be able to grow and change, which requires a complex biological support system, including transporter proteins, neurotrophins, neurotransmitters, and more basic things like oxygen and energy.

You cannot just mash up neurons in a test tube and expect them to function. What happens when you homogenize neural material is you get a pink, gelatinous paste that smells really gross and in no way resembles a brain. The cells are destroyed. So no more consciousness.

Since Reapers melt down their victims and reduce them to genetic paste, rather than extracting and preserving the brain intact, it is incredibly difficult to believe that the process somehow preserves neurons; even if it does, once they are separated and mixed together in the storage vats (which they are, according to the codex), there is virtually no way that neurons could continue to operate in such a way as to reproduce individual consciousness.

There is also the fact that the game refers to "genetic material" rather than "nerual material", which is a very different thing. As far as we know, you cannot produce consciousness from DNA. You cannot even retrive memories from DNA, because DNA does not store memories. Only the brain stores memories. Once the brain is gone, you can't get those memories back. You can't replicate the consciousness of an individual from DNA -- especially because we are formed as much by our experiences as by our genetic makeup; DNA is just a template that we build on through learning.

I am willing to suspend my disbelief and accept eezo, and asari biology, and universal translators, and even synthetic hybrids. But "preserving" a species in vitro by liquifying their bodies, and then claiming that their minds are still there? No. At best, perhaps neruonal patterns are replicated in a synthetic network before death, essentially "uploading" organic minds to the machine; whether this is preferable to death really depends on quality of life, and whether or not you're willing to be just a small part of a gestalt machine consciousness for the rest of ever.

Well yeah, "Kelly Chambers" wouldn't exist anymore, but "Human" would.  (Concensus versus Individual)

aristaea wrote...



Personally, I'd rather take my chances with death.

Thats what the endings are for.  Stop reaperization while taking your chances with death.

aristaea wrote...

ETA: The value of "archiving" a civilization is arguable. Why archive it at all, and why only one species? What is valuable about that species, and to whom is it valuable? The process of evolution sees species flourish and perish all the time, with no concern for whether or not that species leaves a mark, or a record. So why does Star Child care?

Maybe its just a result of what the initial species sought out to do that got continued upon thier extinction.  Maybe the reaper is the result of mixing in so many individuals into one mind.  "we are each a nation"  imagine combining your thoughts with every gamer, every right wing conservative, every hippy, every child, every murderer, every criminal, every politician on the planet.  What kind of conglomerate mind would that create?


One thing I like, as an aside, is that the game sort of hints at is that the Protheans being wiped out was a GOOD thing for humanity, because they would have turned us into slaves.

[Averdi]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Averdi wrote...

The versions of the control ending I saw on youtube showed the relay (at least the Charon one) exploding, though I grant that the citadel didn't blow up.

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I read many of the suggestions on how it isn't all doom and gloom, including non-relay FTL, and been unconvinced.  Destruction of the relay network is a deal-breaker for me; in my opinion it effectively ends the ME environment.

You should look closer, in both the good and bad blue ending the relay does not get exploded/destroyed.

2:10 to 2:17.  What am I missing?

In the other endings the relays explode spectacularly.  In this one it releases energy but does not explode.  This would not be notable except for the fact that the citadel is not destroyed either.  In all other endings the citadel is destroyed by the blast and then the relays explode.  in control the citadel does not explode, which emphasizes them not showing the relays exploding. 

At 2:17 in the video explosions rack the relay and pieces are seen flying away; it does explode.  The catalyst even says that releasing the energy of the crucible destroys the mass relays.  What is your explanation for that scene?

[AtlasMickey]

legion999 wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...

You're awesome, OP. I've been saying many of the same things but very few people have been willing to actually engage the story as it's told. They straight up deny it.

You do realise that a lot ifthe OP's 'things' have been debunked right?

If by "debunked" you mean "ignored" then yes. 

[xenu101]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Going to list abunch of falacies and then explain why they aren't.


Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont.  They destroy our militaries, which involves killing THEM, and then they harvest our civilians.  Anderson and Hacket mention how they're collecting our world leaders and how they're dealing with our civilians.  Its brought up over vidcom that our world leaders are being indoctrinated to urge people to support the reapers and do as they request of us to avoid bloodshed, just like what Saren tried to convince Shepard of.


Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.


The gun fires infinite bullets.  Yes it does.  Did you play ME1?  Did you talk to Zaeed about Jesse in ME2?  Do you know how these guns ACTUALLY work?  They dont use actual ammunition, when you "reload your gun" you're just fast-cooling it, it's still using the same block of "ammo" that it will use forever.  These guns shave off a tiny shred of metal and fling it using mass effect fields.  This means that your guns never run out of ammunition, they just heat up.  In ME1 you can mod your gun so that it never heats up at the expense of its fire power.  In ME2 Zaeed tells you a story about firing his gun without needing to pop a heat sink and that it broke the gun in the end.  The need to manage heat sinks is a safety mechanism of the gun itself.  A modded gun or a gun that is set to NOT lock up when it overheats would be able to fire forever.  (or until it breaks due to overuse)


Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.  Wrong, for really obvious reasons.  Anderson tells you that the walls are moving, you see the walls move.  you dont see any other paths because they are closed up.  Its told right to your face and people forget about it immediately.  Here look I'll draw you a diagram:



Anderson mentions that he just saw a wall move, which could be a scenario where the red wall, where he started behind, was open, and the green wall, where you start behind, is closed.  there could be many more passages behind every other wall.  Thats what the mention of walls moving is supposed to establish.  How people can not get this is beyond me.


If anyone has anymore feel free to post them.

These are none of the plotholes people are concerned with. Actually, the first 3 aren't even plotholes. They're in the god damn CODEX. So GTFO! And never post here again.

Modifié par xenu101, 08 avril 2012 - 01:52 .

[Warrior Craess]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Averdi wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Averdi wrote...

The versions of the control ending I saw on youtube showed the relay (at least the Charon one) exploding, though I grant that the citadel didn't blow up.

I don't want to derail the thread too much, but I read many of the suggestions on how it isn't all doom and gloom, including non-relay FTL, and been unconvinced.  Destruction of the relay network is a deal-breaker for me; in my opinion it effectively ends the ME environment.

You should look closer, in both the good and bad blue ending the relay does not get exploded/destroyed.

2:10 to 2:17.  What am I missing?

In the other endings the relays explode spectacularly.  In this one it releases energy but does not explode.  This would not be notable except for the fact that the citadel is not destroyed either.  In all other endings the citadel is destroyed by the blast and then the relays explode.  in control the citadel does not explode, which emphasizes them not showing the relays exploding. 

You need to watch again, specifically at the 2:17 mark.... the relays explode. 

[Zofiya]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Souls are fake sorry they dont exist. theres no such thing

I didn't say that souls existed, I said that current neuropsychological theory suggests that the phenomenon of conscious experience traditionally associated with or identified as the soul in Western philosophical thought is most likely biological rather than supernatural in origin. It could be argued that the concept of the soul is really only a pre-psychological way to explain human consciousness.

However, the declaration that souls do not exist is not an argument, it is merely an opinion stated as fact.

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Well yeah, "Kelly Chambers" wouldn't exist anymore, but "Human" would. (Concensus versus Individual)

Again, if the individual consciousness is not preserved, then it is equivalent to death.

There is nothing particularly unique about life -- especially when you have categorically denied the existence of a persistent soul -- in the absence of consciousness. A body without a mind is just so much meat. So if the individual no longer exists, then a Reaper is essentially just a jar of DNA, not the gestalt consciousness of an entire species.

As for the idea of preserving the species, this idea that the "human" experience would somehow persist in the absence of any true cognitive processes strikes me as a flawed interpretation of the Jungian collective unconscious, which is meant to explain how we, as a species, organize and understand information. This theme was present in the first game with the thorian and the Cipher. The Cipher is meant to provide context in order to understand the message in the beacon, and we are told that the Cipher is the knowledge of what it was like to live as a Prothean. However, this is possible because the Cipher is the thorian's knowledge -- it is not derived from an abstract, psychic communion (the "Prothean" experience), but rather direct (albeit psychic) contact and experience with the species and society in question. Essentially, it's like reading a book on Roman society: doing so furnishes knowledge and provides greater context for reading Roman literature.

That does not mean that it is possible to extract the experience of a species from their DNA. The collective unconscious is more accurately understood, in modern psychology, as biological in origin. It refers, in essence, to the way our brains work: the structures and functions, genetically determined, which are the same for all humans, which control stimulus response, information processing, learning, and memory. But there is a sufficient degree of variation between individuals and across cultures to prohibit claims of one, unified experience. Even things which we consider basic, like tone and body language, are not universal. And societal norms vary so widely that it is difficult even to say, "this is what it's like to be X nationality". So even if you were to replicate neural structures and functions, even if you could reproduce consciousness, without the context of social and cultural experience, it means nothing.

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Maybe its just a result of what the initial species sought out to do that got continued upon thier extinction. Maybe the reaper is the result of mixing in so many individuals into one mind. "we are each a nation" imagine combining your thoughts with every gamer, every right wing conservative, every hippy, every child, every murderer, every criminal, every politician on the planet. What kind of conglomerate mind would that create?

"Maybe" is precisely the problem. It's never explained. The lack of explanation for this particular question, combined with nonsensical or lacking explanations for other questions, all combine to create gaping plot holes.

On a more cynical note, do you really think that a Reaper is a true conglomerate mind, comprising many individual minds, that is capable of reaching consensus and acting as a whole, without outside influence (like indoctrination)?

Have you met people? <_<

Modifié par aristaea, 08 avril 2012 - 03:44 .

[kyleshuey]

Aceor wrote...

Jessica1995 wrote...

*facepalm*

*double facepalm* 

*third-party facepalm*

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

xenu101 wrote...


These are none of the plotholes people are concerned with. Actually, the first 3 aren't even plotholes. They're in the god damn CODEX. So GTFO! And never post here again.

Actually the sad thing is that there actaully ARE people who consider those plot holes.  This situation is all over the place!

Warrior Craess wrote...

You need to watch again, specifically at the 2:17 mark.... the relays explode. 

We see it spark but it doesnt explode.  it may simply be non functional.  The point I'm making is that we see the citadel explode in the other endings along with the relays, but in this ending theres a different scene, one where the citadel is safe and sound and the relays arent seen exploding.  Had you only seen the control ending and none of the others you wouldnt even think that the relays had exploded, just that they'd sent out this blue wave of energy all across the galaxy  (I've actually heard podcasts where someone who picked control actually WAS shocked that the other guy said "The relays exploded in my ending."  "What the ****, that changes everything! ".)  Thats the key difference.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 08 avril 2012 - 06:17 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

aristaea wrote...

However, the declaration that souls do not exist is not an argument, it is merely an opinion stated as fact.

=p

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 08 avril 2012 - 06:21 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Edit: Sorry for the three posts but editing text back into an existing post is kind of a pain because it inserts alot of line returns when I paste into a reply window.  Apologies, anyways...

aristaea wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Well yeah, "Kelly Chambers" wouldn't exist anymore, but "Human" would. (Concensus versus Individual)

Again, if the individual consciousness is not preserved, then it is equivalent to death.

There is nothing particularly unique about life -- especially when you have categorically denied the existence of a persistent soul -- in the absence of consciousness. A body without a mind is just so much meat. So if the individual no longer exists, then a Reaper is essentially just a jar of DNA, not the gestalt consciousness of an entire species.

As for the idea of preserving the species, this idea that the "human" experience would somehow persist in the absence of any true cognitive processes strikes me as a flawed interpretation of the Jungian collective unconscious, which is meant to explain how we, as a species, organize and understand information. This theme was present in the first game with the thorian and the Cipher. The Cipher is meant to provide context in order to understand the message in the beacon, and we are told that the Cipher is the knowledge of what it was like to live as a Prothean. However, this is possible because the Cipher is the thorian's knowledge -- it is not derived from an abstract, psychic communion (the "Prothean" experience), but rather direct (albeit psychic) contact and experience with the species and society in question. Essentially, it's like reading a book on Roman society: doing so furnishes knowledge and provides greater context for reading Roman literature.

Right, the thorian is different from the reapers.  His knowledge being derived from experience, reapers being composed of what we actually are.  Heres something: Do we actually communicate with the reaper itself, or is what shepard has been speaking to just a "reaper shell ai" and the core of the species lies dormant and archived within the reaper core (Much like the human reaper you fight at the end of ME2, its not the size of a starship, because it exists within the reaper's depths.)  That might be why the reaper that you speak to on Rannoch seemed incapable of answering shepard's question, because it was just a runtime program we were speaking to that manages reaper systems and verbal communications.

aristaea wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Maybe its just a result of what the initial species sought out to do that got continued upon thier extinction. Maybe the reaper is the result of mixing in so many individuals into one mind. "we are each a nation" imagine combining your thoughts with every gamer, every right wing conservative, every hippy, every child, every murderer, every criminal, every politician on the planet. What kind of conglomerate mind would that create?

"Maybe" is precisely the problem. It's never explained. The lack of explanation for this particular question, combined with nonsensical or lacking explanations for other questions, all combine to create gaping plot holes.

Right, but these holes can and most likely will be filled.  The mass effect 3 of a year from now will probably be a very different creature than the mass effect we experienced here. 

The Watchmen Film is a good example of this in effect.  The initial screening of the movie was chopped all to hell to the point that half of the character's motivations and the entire point of the story itself made no sense and carried no weight.  Later the DVD release was provided that offered a more complete version of the filmmaker's vision of this adaption and it basically wiped out all memory of the lackluster theatrical version.  It took something that felt rushed and empty and turned it into something meaningful, gave it impact, and all it took was 40 minutes of extra footage.  I believe this may be the case here, which leads me to my next point.

aristaea wrote...
On a more cynical note, do you really think that a Reaper is a true conglomerate mind, comprising many individual minds, that is capable of reaching consensus and acting as a whole, without outside influence (like indoctrination)?

Have you met people? <_<

Yeah people are great, if not a little lazy.  (haha okay seriously now)

Well if you sit enough people in a room eventually they'll be able to vote on some sort of resolution.  Keep in mind we are talking about a collective intelligence, free from the shackles of wants and desires.  Without it it is idealy more reasonable than someone who wants something to satisfy themselves.  The specific idea of the reaper hivemind is something beyond our culture and understanding, something having "transcended" and seeing what we value as trite or meaningless.  This flies in the face of what I brought up earlier about the possibility that the reapers are driven by artificial intelligence that "protects" the core and carrys out the reaper's tasks. 

Part of the whole point here is that people abuse the term plothole with arguements that "Bioware was lazy, they can't explain a bad ending."  The entire point to bringing up these theoreis is to debunk the arguement that there is no expalnation to an 'obviously impossible to explain ending".  If logic can be derived then it means that its entirely possible that Bioware is capable of doing the same.  I get the feeling that you are in this camp as well, and that this arguement isn't necessarily for you.  There are plenty of people with thier heads in the ground incapable of listening to reason, which is the saddest part.


Heres something: What do you think of someone who stuffs thier dog after it's death to remember it by?  That is essentially what the reapers purpose is, preserving memories in a house they built for it.  (Though this house can travel through space and fire lazers capable of destroying a dreadnaught with concentrated fire)  =p

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 08 avril 2012 - 06:50 .

[jumpingkaede]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

also remember how the mako traveling through the conduit takes you to a different part than saren's geth fleet using the conduit?  technically using a mass relay without an IFF could send you to a random spot within a large area, theoretically shepard got lucky at the end of me1, and anderson and shepard got lucky at the end of me3.  (The conduit in me3 could be programmed to send people to processing centers and not just lodge them inside walls)

Some of that is speculation.  Also, Sovereign and the Geth Fleet didn't go through the Conduit .

The Conduit takes you INSIDE the Citadel to the Mass Relay on the Presidium grounds.  It's also a little beam thing on Ilos.  I don't know how they got to the Citadel Relay though.  That's just another loose end that Bioware forgot to tie up and we ignored because the game was so good.

As to how the Citadel itself gets moved to Earth in ME3... no idea.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

No they used the Conduit. the exit point is not a 1:1 thing, otherwise how would massive fleets use a relay? they'd all end up bumping into eachother, it would become a super trivial thing to stop people from the other side of a relay if the exit point was relegated to such an exact point.

I think one of the books covers it but theres....imagine a big bubble arround the relay that ships can exit FTL from. Its why you couldnt set up abunch of explosive bombs arround the omega 4 relay because of how far from the relay leading up to the beginning of ME3. Its not like a portal theres more involved in plotting destination, thats what joker's doing in his cockpit during all those cutscenes where you're jumping arround from relay to relay.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 08 avril 2012 - 06:19 .

[thefallen2far]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Yeah but at least the rest of the galaxy doesnt get completely wiped out by YOUR creations.  the reapers leave lesser species alive.  so long as a species doesnt evolve to a state where they can create artificial intelligence capable of destroying EVERY living thing in the galaxy, they can continue to exist in thier present state.  It's a safety mechanism for the rest of organic life.  It would be real ****ty if humanity got obliterated by the geth as soon as they discovered the mass relays on mars.  Imagine how ****ed up that would be.  Yeah the quarians or turians wouldn't be arround to care anymore but the humans would be ****ing pissed.

No it's not.  Do you know how I know this?  Because the Reapers ARE that.  They're synthetics that were created that destroy sentient life.  This is their purpose.  There is no feasible reason for Synthetics to definatively wipe out all life in the universe completely, advanced or microscopic.  Any reason for them to do so would be indistiguishable to what the Reapers were doing.  Circular logic from a damaged program is not sufficient proof to justify genocide on an unimaginable level.  And there are INFINATELY better ways of dealing with this problem.... especially for an "evolved intelligence" that has been around for billions of years.  Why don't they wait until the species actually creates an AI that will destroy the galaxy.... and THEN intervene?

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
1. well complaining that they didnt animate anderson running is kind of silly.  Anderson is kind of a headstrong guy so I can see him breaking rank and bolting for the beam with the others out of desperation.  Nothing he did would matter if they didnt make it to the citadel.  Anderson would head for the beam in a heartbeat.  (Pretty sure he hops down in the preceeding cutscene before the big run down)  Its improper for the military, but not for who anderson as a character is.

And one guy, running towards a beam in an empty field that was leveled.... wouldn't be missed.  Hacket couldn't see him.  Harbinger couldn't see him.  All the Reaper forces couldn't see him.  You'd see him behind you.  If it's "silly" to animate it.... he had no damage to him.  Was it "silly" to rough him up for the scene?  He made it to the beam... completely unhindered after Hacket called a retreat.... and the Reapers didn't have ONE Reaper level defensce staying staying behind to guard the ONE enterance to the only way to loose the war.

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
2. the keepers process dead humans into a reaper.  thats what the inner chambers of the citadel do, at least thats what the game seemed to be implying.  (this is another thing they can reitterate through dlc so people get it)  Bonus: When the Citadel is closed up it looks ALOT like the Collector Base.  

And Shadow Broker's Lair.  That's part of the Indoc Theory.   Anyway, again... BIG fault in the technology to not have a definitive location where prisoners and dead humans were deposited.... especially if 2 or 3 living objects can be transported [supposedly randomly] within walking distance of the self destruct mechanism to your entire species.  Not very smart for a billion year old computer.

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
3. I like the diagram that was made.  These chambers rotating arround between being closed off or having access to the arms controls.  They'd want TIM (or whatever thier avatar is, such as Saren) to be able to access the central control chamber.  Also it makes sense that there may be other halls that the chambers that saren and anderson arrived in could access, such as reaper processing stations much like the collector base.  "we will find another way" and all.

Why does that make sense?  What possible purpose would there be for something like this?  Ever see Galaxy Quest.  Sigourny Weaver and Tim Allen had to go through some steel collums randomly smashing together with immense power that would crush people.... and "What possible reason is there for this device being here?  It makes no sense.  Who ever wrote this episode should DIE!"  I laughed so hard at that.... there is no reason for it.  And there is no reason for shifting walls and bridges.

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
it was mentioned somewhere that the citadel codex mentions that they can seal off individual arms to protect people that way, one of the twitter responses i've seen read that "its quite possible that the people on the arms could have survived due to that after the destruction of the citadel".  Also keep in mind that from a normal point on the citadel no one is able to access the keeper tunnels in the citadel core.  this is brought up several times throughout all 3 games.  They were setting up the reveal that the citadel is used to process species for the reapers and interface with the crucible if a change in the cycle were required.

It's not just this cycle.... but 2000 cycles?  Not one species, one organic being in 2000 discoveries of the Citadel even accidentally discovered the self distruct mechanism in the exact center of the Citadel?  Really? Not ONE discovered this HUGE room that CONTROLS the arms of the Citadel?  I understand suspension of disbelief, but come on.

[Tyrzun]

OP you are grasping at straws

The game designers talked about GAMEPLAY mechanic changes in ME 2 vs ME 1. They said the game mechanic changed. They added clips so you could do more damage in quicker bursts, but at the price of long term infinite damage.

Apparently, you didn't follow Mass Effect very well. They retconned how the guns work. They told us before ME 2 was created about the change and why they did it. People got bored waiting for the cool downs. They removed the need. It's that simple.

I could post a rather large post about FAR more important massive plot holes, but no need. You can read the rest of the threads and find them.

Now as for the rest... those are your theorys. I could say in Mass Effect there is a purple giant sloth with one green eye, one red eye, a deformed green little toe on his right foot, and it flys around the galaxy using his farts for propulsion.  Then I could say well, he doesn't need to breath oxygen because in the future they replaced his lungs with solar panel across his butt that provide the energy he needs instead of oxygen, inside his chest is the processor that converts that energy into nanobots that transer the energy to the nano bots in the blood stream, and then in turn go into the muscles and provide the energy to muscles and he is actually Star Childs father. He got excited by a hannar once and did his thing on a passing meteor and the passing meteor became the star child.

You could not disprove ANY of my speculations because it is very loosely based on present scientific theory. However, what I just said is stupid and unreasonable. You can believe it if you wish, but you cannot disprove it because all I have to say is Bioware did not specifically say that creature does not exist.. ANYONE can play the game you are playing.

Modifié par Tyrzun, 09 avril 2012 - 07:33 .

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Tyrzun wrote...

OP you are grasping at straws

You could not disprove ANY of my speculations because it is very loosely based on present scientific theory. However, what I just said is stupid and unreasonable. You can believe it if you wish, but you cannot disprove it because all I have to say is Bioware did not specifically say that creature does not exist.. ANYONE can play the game you are playing.

Well it depends on if you're basing it off of stuff that happens IN the narrative or not.  After watching the Conrad scene (he wasnt there in my playthrough) I can see why I was wrong about how the guns worked compared to the first game, but I also flashback to Zaeed's story about Jesse and how on one mission he was able to fire the gun without ever loading a thermal clip and after that mission the gun was no longer useable, this establishes that its possible for the current system of guns to be able to fire without a clip under unknown circumstances that could result in the destruction of the gun's internal mechanisms.  This is someting Zaeed TELLS you, so for people to say "a gun being able to fire forever is a plot hole" is mind bogglingly stupid and its something I see FAR too often in ending gripes and indoctrination theory videos.