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[Warrior Craess]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

xenu101 wrote...


These are none of the plotholes people are concerned with. Actually, the first 3 aren't even plotholes. They're in the god damn CODEX. So GTFO! And never post here again.

Actually the sad thing is that there actaully ARE people who consider those plot holes.  This situation is all over the place!

Warrior Craess wrote...

You need to watch again, specifically at the 2:17 mark.... the relays explode. 

We see it spark but it doesnt explode.  it may simply be non functional.  The point I'm making is that we see the citadel explode in the other endings along with the relays, but in this ending theres a different scene, one where the citadel is safe and sound and the relays arent seen exploding.  Had you only seen the control ending and none of the others you wouldnt even think that the relays had exploded, just that they'd sent out this blue wave of energy all across the galaxy  (I've actually heard podcasts where someone who picked control actually WAS shocked that the other guy said "The relays exploded in my ending."  "What the ****, that changes everything! ".)  Thats the key difference.

please go back, and watch it again.. it's more than a spark - it breaks apart explosively in several locations. Pause it if you need to, It explodes - granted it's much less spectacular than Destroy and Synthesis, it sill exploded.  
  or if this works look closely at the picture... See the shards that are no longer connected to the relay

https://fbcdn-sphoto..._57868085_n.jpg

[Warrior Craess]

jumpingkaede wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

also remember how the mako traveling through the conduit takes you to a different part than saren's geth fleet using the conduit?  technically using a mass relay without an IFF could send you to a random spot within a large area, theoretically shepard got lucky at the end of me1, and anderson and shepard got lucky at the end of me3.  (The conduit in me3 could be programmed to send people to processing centers and not just lodge them inside walls)

Some of that is speculation.  Also, Sovereign and the Geth Fleet didn't go through the Conduit .

The Conduit takes you INSIDE the Citadel to the Mass Relay on the Presidium grounds.  It's also a little beam thing on Ilos.  I don't know how they got to the Citadel Relay though.  That's just another loose end that Bioware forgot to tie up and we ignored because the game was so good.

As to how the Citadel itself gets moved to Earth in ME3... no idea.

umm Saren did, and you came out in roughly the same place.  Just a little later than he did. Some Geth did as well, though more probably came with Sovereign. 

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

thefallen2far wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Yeah but at least the rest of the galaxy doesnt get completely wiped out by YOUR creations.  the reapers leave lesser species alive.  so long as a species doesnt evolve to a state where they can create artificial intelligence capable of destroying EVERY living thing in the galaxy, they can continue to exist in thier present state.  It's a safety mechanism for the rest of organic life.  It would be real ****ty if humanity got obliterated by the geth as soon as they discovered the mass relays on mars.  Imagine how ****ed up that would be.  Yeah the quarians or turians wouldn't be arround to care anymore but the humans would be ****ing pissed.

No it's not.  Do you know how I know this?  Because the Reapers ARE that.  They're synthetics that were created that destroy sentient life.  This is their purpose.  There is no feasible reason for Synthetics to definatively wipe out all life in the universe completely, advanced or microscopic.  Any reason for them to do so would be indistiguishable to what the Reapers were doing.  Circular logic from a damaged program is not sufficient proof to justify genocide on an unimaginable level.  And there are INFINATELY better ways of dealing with this problem.... especially for an "evolved intelligence" that has been around for billions of years.  Why don't they wait until the species actually creates an AI that will destroy the galaxy.... and THEN intervene?

At the end of the Mars Mission TIM tells you that it would be easy for the reapers to completely destroy us and that because they are not that there must be something more to them.  This is seeding the idea that the reapers are about more than just "kill kill kill".  they are pruning us.  Like all life are hedges and they're chopping off a flower to put under glass.  Yeah the flower is dead, its not destroyed or monster-killed, it's existence carries on even if it no longer lives in a traditional sense, and what's more what is left behind will blossom again the following year.  Thats different than burning down the bush itself and thats why the reaper's motives can be viewed objectively as something a race could decide was the correct way forward.

Heres something: What if the species creates an AI capable of infecting and destroying the reapers?  Then what?  Then we're ****ed forever and no one is going to ever be alive on any planet ever again because this new AI will destroy all life indescriminately and without any foresight to preserve jack ****, they'll burn it all down and thats worse on a galactic scale.  That's why destroying the reapers is renegade, because its putting your species' needs ahead of all other developing life in the galaxy.  Thats the reason why its red and thats what renegade has stood for since the first game.  It's not evil, its a moral code.

thefallen2far wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
1. well complaining that they didnt animate anderson running is kind of silly.  Anderson is kind of a headstrong guy so I can see him breaking rank and bolting for the beam with the others out of desperation.  Nothing he did would matter if they didnt make it to the citadel.  Anderson would head for the beam in a heartbeat.  (Pretty sure he hops down in the preceeding cutscene before the big run down)  Its improper for the military, but not for who anderson as a character is.

And one guy, running towards a beam in an empty field that was leveled.... wouldn't be missed.  Hacket couldn't see him.  Harbinger couldn't see him.  All the Reaper forces couldn't see him.  You'd see him behind you.  If it's "silly" to animate it.... he had no damage to him.  Was it "silly" to rough him up for the scene?  He made it to the beam... completely unhindered after Hacket called a retreat.... and the Reapers didn't have ONE Reaper level defensce staying staying behind to guard the ONE enterance to the only way to loose the war.

They dont notice shepard going towards the beam.  using that as a counter arguement is faulty on its own.  It's a vague scene but its not inexcusable and its not beyond this new ending to explain.  One important thing that I feel will come into play during the dlc is the fact that shepard blacks out 3 times during the ending, not counting the post credits sequence.  These will be the moments bioware uses to flesh out the ending (not saying they wont add more to the REST of the sequence from the final dream onward) and it will be these moments where everything makes sense.  Maybe after shepard went into the beam alot of things happened that resulted in anderson making it.  Maybe shepard was lieing there next to that keeper for a half an hour while battles raged on earth.  Those blackouts are Bioware's "in" for making that ending what we wanted all along.

think about it like this:  What if you didnt have any of the normandy SR1 scenes during the ending of ME1 where you see joker take down the reaper, or the conversation with udina/the council at the end?  What if ME1 you fight some geth as you climb the prisidium and then you beat saren, and there is no space battle on screen but you just hear about it, then the reaper explodes and hits the council chambers.  shepard survives and walks towards anderson, fade to black roll credits.  That is what this ending is to me, its the vital parts but its missing the parts that make that ending awesome and satisfying.  Its like the suicide mission without the crew scenes, if you just heard about characters dieing.  its like if ME2 ended with the normandy sr2 jumping into FTL as it leaves the explosion and then jump to credits without that final conversation with the illusive man and the scene on your ship.  We're missing the parts that make the ending good.  I see at least 4 parts where these good bits have room for insertion.  After shepard gets shot, after shepard reaches the beam, after shepard goes up the elevator, and after the normandy crash/after shepard wakes up.  Those are where ME1 and ME2 would have the scenes that stuck with us, that really mattered to us.  Thats why I have faith in what Bioware will do with ME3.  These "problems" people have arent things that bioware can't fix and make cool and interesting.  They dont have to change whats there, they just have to put the good parts inbetween the important parts.

thefallen2far wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
2. the keepers process dead humans into a reaper.  thats what the inner chambers of the citadel do, at least thats what the game seemed to be implying.  (this is another thing they can reitterate through dlc so people get it)  Bonus: When the Citadel is closed up it looks ALOT like the Collector Base.  

And Shadow Broker's Lair.  That's part of the Indoc Theory.   Anyway, again... BIG fault in the technology to not have a definitive location where prisoners and dead humans were deposited.... especially if 2 or 3 living objects can be transported [supposedly randomly] within walking distance of the self destruct mechanism to your entire species.  Not very smart for a billion year old computer.

Maybe the keepers let them in.  That one keeper looks at shepard when he wakes up.  It may have been doing what it was programmed to do.  At the time I felt that when I was speaking to the catalyst that it was the equivalent of what the collector general was to the collectors, and that the keepers were its "mental pawns".  The scene made total sense to me at the time and I think thats what Bioware was going for.  Its established that people dont understand how the keepers work in ME1, but that they have some link to the citadel.  at the end of ME3 we meet the catalyst who tells us that they are the citadel.  thats a pretty easy "plug A in slot B" thing right there

thefallen2far wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
3. I like the diagram that was made.  These chambers rotating arround between being closed off or having access to the arms controls.  They'd want TIM (or whatever thier avatar is, such as Saren) to be able to access the central control chamber.  Also it makes sense that there may be other halls that the chambers that saren and anderson arrived in could access, such as reaper processing stations much like the collector base.  "we will find another way" and all.

Why does that make sense?  What possible purpose would there be for something like this?  Ever see Galaxy Quest.  Sigourny Weaver and Tim Allen had to go through some steel collums randomly smashing together with immense power that would crush people.... and "What possible reason is there for this device being here?  It makes no sense.  Who ever wrote this episode should DIE!"  I laughed so hard at that.... there is no reason for it.  And there is no reason for shifting walls and bridges.

it makes sense because if you have alot of chambers that you want to lead to multiple places (citadel controls, human processing) then you have the moving walls.  Its what anderson said happens, he says it, and then you see him ahead of you.  it makes perfect sense.  one wall opens up and another wall closes.  what about this is hard to understand?

thefallen2far wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...
it was mentioned somewhere that the citadel codex mentions that they can seal off individual arms to protect people that way, one of the twitter responses i've seen read that "its quite possible that the people on the arms could have survived due to that after the destruction of the citadel".  Also keep in mind that from a normal point on the citadel no one is able to access the keeper tunnels in the citadel core.  this is brought up several times throughout all 3 games.  They were setting up the reveal that the citadel is used to process species for the reapers and interface with the crucible if a change in the cycle were required.

It's not just this cycle.... but 2000 cycles?  Not one species, one organic being in 2000 discoveries of the Citadel even accidentally discovered the self distruct mechanism in the exact center of the Citadel?  Really? Not ONE discovered this HUGE room that CONTROLS the arms of the Citadel?  I understand suspension of disbelief, but come on.

Theres multiple rooms that control the citadel arms.  The council chambers do, so does the area at the end of ME3.  the citadel is huge and alot of its interior is sealed off.  Also the important thing to remember is that those two pieces of machinery (the rods you grab and the engine components) dont do anything unless they are connected to the crucible.  Even if someone discovered them in the past they wouldn't DO anything because the crucible's energy isnt' flowing through them.  it'd just be some bits on the citadel, which already has many bits on it that people aren't aware of. 

Remember the relay monument in ME1?  same thing.  It seemed like a statue because it didnt LEAD anywhere, it was just an end point for another relay with no way to activate it from the other side. It was just a hunk of relay lookin statue to a normal person until that big reveal at the end when you pop out of that sucker during the battle of the citadel.


The problem with ME3, especially with the ending, is that alot of it requires intricate knowledge of the ENTIRE series, and even some periphery material to wholly grasp whats going on, which is crazy when you consider they were hyping up this game as "a perfect entry point for new fans of the franchise".  (really bioware?)  the reaction casey hudson had to brad shoemaker on the giant bomb me3 podcast about his question of "is it worth recovering my save or will i be fine just playing this game without it" was startling.  he actually seemed to break from his usual professionalism and say "I HIGHLY reccomend importing"  Its actually a really cool podcast because I feel like its the first time I've ever actually seen Casey "crack", at least two times they hit him in ways that sort of catch him for a loop against what you would typically prepare answers for in this case, very interesting discussion.


Anyways about that doc, I still want to get to it and look over everything in it because I think it will be a fun challenge.  The purpose of this topic isnt to give all the answers to every question, but mainly to illustrate how these claims of "bioware cant do it" lack credibility.  I'd like to get to it, I'm worried I'll facepalm my way hard through that google doc though.  =E

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Warrior Craess wrote...

please go back, and watch it again.. it's more than a spark - it breaks apart explosively in several locations. Pause it if you need to, It explodes - granted it's much less spectacular than Destroy and Synthesis, it sill exploded.  
  or if this works look closely at the picture... See the shards that are no longer connected to the relay

The arguement can be made that it is merely damaged from being overloaded with this "reaper control" signal.  We arent even sure if it loses functionality or not.  The fact that the citadel survives wholly intact means that this signal may not destroy the relays, but we do see it struggle to broadcast the signal, with visible damage.


Edit: Check out this link, Mike Gamble corrects someone about the blue ending.  "Disabled" rather than "Destroyed"  huhhhhh:

twitter.com/#!/GambleMike/status/189481533239865344

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 10 avril 2012 - 09:04 .

[Kanon777]

Good job op, but i believe the people who need to read this the most will ignore you, they dont want to believe how easy it is for Bioware to make a very diferent ending without changing their vission to the story. They are zealots who cant only think what is "wrong" with the endings and refuse to see the vagueness as an oportunity for good things, all they can think is that no matter what Bioware do or how much they work they cant never make the endings "better...

[moater boat]

When do the walls move? I don't remember actually seeing it happen. Also it's funny how the QA  tries to make stealing the minds of billions of people, storing them against their will for an eternity and then forcing them to commit genocide is more kind than just killing them. Sometimes I laugh at people that think like that, and other times I realized that during elections, their votes count for as much as mine, and it makes me sad.

[Durontan]

Okey, I'll bite.

YES, we CAN explain almost all plot holes, but my question to you is WHY?

WHY are WE the players supposed to fill them for first time in 3 games where it is all always explained in great detail.

WHY all of a sudden I have to explain to myself that explosion of the mass relays isn't a supernova?
WHY do I have to accept that a kid that says himself I CONTROL the reapers can't just turn them off then, but I have to destroy all syntetic life including Geth and EDI, or syntesis or become a reaper?
WHY is Joker running away through mass relay?
WHY is my entire squad on Normandy?
WHY if mass relay explosion ain't a supernova and it ain't destroying ships... WHY then is Normandy when hit getting crashed all of a sudden?
I can continue the "holes" that ain't holes by you, but like I said WHY?

Yes, I can explain it all easy, but WHY do I have to do that in a game that like I said makes bloody sure I don't have to explain anything myself all of a sudden asks for ****load of speculation?

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

moater boat wrote...

When do the walls move? I don't remember actually seeing it happen. Also it's funny how the QA  tries to make stealing the minds of billions of people, storing them against their will for an eternity and then forcing them to commit genocide is more kind than just killing them. Sometimes I laugh at people that think like that, and other times I realized that during elections, their votes count for as much as mine, and it makes me sad.

You dont see it happen because it happens far ahead of you.  By the time you get there the path has already opened itself for you.  Anderson tells you over radio that he saw the walls move, this happens before he reaches the controls.  Everything anderson says is important, you cant write any of it off.  The way that final room is aligned theres plenty of way for anderson to have had a route there.  After the scene with TIM the floor beneath you pulls you up to the Crucible.  The space you're in is shifting, just like Anderson said.  You dont see where anderson came from because its already closed up.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Durontan wrote...

Okey, I'll bite.

YES, we CAN explain almost all plot holes, but my question to you is WHY?

WHY are WE the players supposed to fill them for first time in 3 games where it is all always explained in great detail.

WHY all of a sudden I have to explain to myself that explosion of the mass relays isn't a supernova?
WHY do I have to accept that a kid that says himself I CONTROL the reapers can't just turn them off then, but I have to destroy all syntetic life including Geth and EDI, or syntesis or become a reaper?
WHY is Joker running away through mass relay?
WHY is my entire squad on Normandy?
WHY if mass relay explosion ain't a supernova and it ain't destroying ships... WHY then is Normandy when hit getting crashed all of a sudden?
I can continue the "holes" that ain't holes by you, but like I said WHY?

Yes, I can explain it all easy, but WHY do I have to do that in a game that like I said makes bloody sure I don't have to explain anything myself all of a sudden asks for ****load of speculation?

The point ISNT that you have to, the point is that it is wholly possible for Bioware to address these concerns.  the point is that the plot holes people have are fixable, you wouldn't believe how many people i've seen, even today, claiming its unfixable.  The fact that explanations exist without altering whats there proves that theres room for bioware to work it out.

http://social.biowar...11154234/1&lf=8
Here's a good thread with dev responses that address much of what you're talking about.  The problem was they thought we were smarter than we collectively proved to be.  That they could put the story into visuals and trust people to know what they meant without a litteral explanation.  The problem is that something that requires so much debate to figure out will leave most of its audience behind.  This is a problem they are addressing.  the problem isnt what they made, its what they didnt make.  Its a problem that the game didnt contain a wholly satisfying ending for everyone the way 1 and 2 were, but that can be addressed in the long term.

The things the kid says isnt nonsense, and everything shepard says is a counter to what he presents, his logic holds up, but its presented in non-repeatable, brevity focused dialogue.  We needed more questions, more answers.  we needed more.  what was there was not bad, it just wasnt everything we wanted, or needed.  I understood what was happening and enjoyed the ending but i didnt feel wholly satisfied, my exact thoughts were "I liked what was here, but I feel dissapointed in what isn't. 


Anyways I can address my views on each of your questions.  (At least the ones that aren't rhetorical)

• WHY
  do I have to accept that a kid that says himself I CONTROL the reapers
  can't just turn them off then, but I have to destroy all syntetic life
  including Geth and EDI, or syntesis or become a reaper?

Early on they hit on the fact that activating the crucible could destroy the reapers, but also everything else in the galaxy.  they dont know how or if there is any way to focus that on just the reapers, this is established intentionally to set up the reveal at the end.  The reason why you have to do this is because the catalyst does not actively control the reapers, the crucible docks with the citadel and you, a physical being, have to activate it.  There is no evidence to support that the catalyst in any way can interface directly with the crucible.  He just explains how you're able to interface with this machine.

Liara earlier in the story brings up that civilizations throughout time have each added to the crucible, its also established that they dont know who created the crucible.  The origin of the crucible plans is a question to the player.  Did the reapers leave it as a trap?  The fact that the Citadel, thier creation, was created with intent to sync up with it, implies it may have been a failsafe that the initial race that became a reaper put in place.  (Javik brings up a question about the origin of the crucible at some point) 

Your ems dictates the success of the crucible firing.  low ems means it misfires and sends out a wave that melts the earth.  high ems we can attribute to the catalyst's ability to carry out its designated function, which means the better resources you gather, its implied the construction of the crucible is improved and the chances of it getting damaged in the final battle are diminished.  (these are specific scenes I would really enjoy seeing in the ending, showing bits of the catalyst getting shot at based on your success rate during the final battle, to tie it back into that number)  Anyways the point i'm getting at, races throughout time have added to the blueprint, and the catalyst tells you that "a third option has presented itself", he has detected a function of the crucible not previously known in the initial blueprints, he didnt know about the synthesis but he knew about control and destroy, which means that he has information on the purpose of the crucible relating to its initial functions, to destroy the reapers if necessary, or to control them as a form of "correction".  Synthesis is left as something that the catalyst wasnt counting on, which means its a result of one of the past civilizations.  These are based on what was in the game.  Stretching, aka grasping at straws, you could guess that the synthesis function was added by the protheans, due to thier abilities visualizing themselves as "green" and thier ability to understand memories of living beings and even the rooms on the normandy.  Think about how this relates to the idea of the synthesis ending.  I think that Javik is essential to understanding the ending.

• WHY is Joker running away through mass relay?

This we dont know, I could draw a million and one conclusions, but since its been reitterated that this is specifically something we will find out about in the ending dlc I can leave this alone   (maybe hackett orders a retreat after talking to shepard at the console)

• WHY is my entire squad on Normandy?

Where else would they be?  Shepard isn't concious the whole time after the laser, we dont know how much time passes for him before he wakes up after being hit by the laser or after talking to TIM.  Joker may have come in to do a pick up after Hammer issued a retreat.  Why would he leave the entire crew to die?  Its entirely possible that James or Cortez flew a shuttle back up to the normandy and got everyone back on the ship. 

Here's my counter arguement: Why would they stay on the ground?  You're not on earth anymore, why would they be?

• WHY
  if mass relay explosion ain't a supernova and it ain't destroying
  ships... WHY then is Normandy when hit getting crashed all of a sudden?

well they were able to get the door opened so the ship isnt completely offline, it may have just overloaded navigation systems.

• I can continue the "holes" that ain't holes by you, but like I said WHY?

Why not?  

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 10 avril 2012 - 11:27 .

[Aurica]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...


Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.

Whatever it is you claim it to be.    I rather continue to live as I always have been and preferably in my own organic body.  Doing the things that I enjoy rather than be part of this giant mechanical construct.  I'm pretty sure if this was a real life scenario there would be millions of people who prefer to keep their bodies intact.

TBH, I don't know what will be worst.  But let me draw an analogy.
Assuming your brain is forcibly removed from your body and placed into a machine shell and you still retain memories of your life before this transition.

1. You lose all sense of touch, smell & taste.  Things that your body is used to and used to take pleasure in.
2.  You no longer need to eat or rest and is awake 24hrs
3.  You no longer go through aging and you watch everyone you once knew die naturally
4.  You remember the things you enjoy doing but is reminded constantly that you can no longer do those things

I don't know about you but can you imagine how its like to live a life like that and to top it off.  You know that it is never going to end since you can't die of natural causes.  How can ones mind adjust to this type of transformation?  
I believe the experience can be so traumatic that it can potentially drive a person mad even if the personality or memories are retained.  Even if you don't become insane, you would have turned into something else as time goes by. 

[dbt-kenny]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Going to list abunch of falacies and then explain why they aren't.



Anderson and TIM appear out of nowhere.  Wrong, for really obvious reasons.  Anderson tells you that the walls are moving, you see the walls move.  you dont see any other paths because they are closed up.  Its told right to your face and people forget about it immediately.  Here look I'll draw you a diagram:



Anderson mentions that he just saw a wall move, which could be a scenario where the red wall, where he started behind, was open, and the green wall, where you start behind, is closed.  there could be many more passages behind every other wall.  Thats what the mention of walls moving is supposed to establish.  How people can not get this is beyond me.


If anyone has anymore feel free to post them.

only problem with this is
A. you see Anderson after you pass green wall and before he get to the control pad. as it all most a strait line on the same level.
B. there is no where for the RED wall to be.

I can get he wakes up before we do bit that would help but there no reason why he be sent to a differing area, or non that we are told.

[Vigil_N7]

Thornquist wrote...

People just wants a reason to be angry. They want the ending we have to go away, so they rage at every little thing they can see. Alot of the "plotholes" can easily be explained to people, if they just want to listen.

While Im at it, I will bring one of my own.

The relays exploding kills everyone.

How do you know? Its very clear that the Crucible uses technology that is far beyond our understanding, and even in the ME universe. The mere fact that you see people standing up and cheering in London after the wave hits, makes it easy to assume that, no, It does not kill everyone.

This. Half the things people mention on this forum being a plothole aren't actually plotholes. Its just the in thing and the cool thing to do on this forum to whine about all the plot-holes in the game. 

If I was working for Bioware I'd have a hard time of taking the complaints on here seriously. 

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Aurica wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...


Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.

Whatever it is you claim it to be.    I rather continue to live as I always have been and preferably in my own organic body.  Doing the things that I enjoy rather than be part of this giant mechanical construct.  I'm pretty sure if this was a real life scenario there would be millions of people who prefer to keep their bodies intact.

TBH, I don't know what will be worst.  But let me draw an analogy.
Assuming your brain is forcibly removed from your body and placed into a machine shell and you still retain memories of your life before this transition.

1. You lose all sense of touch, smell & taste.  Things that your body is used to and used to take pleasure in.
2.  You no longer need to eat or rest and is awake 24hrs
3.  You no longer go through aging and you watch everyone you once knew die naturally
4.  You remember the things you enjoy doing but is reminded constantly that you can no longer do those things

I don't know about you but can you imagine how its like to live a life like that and to top it off.  You know that it is never going to end since you can't die of natural causes.  How can ones mind adjust to this type of transformation?  
I believe the experience can be so traumatic that it can potentially drive a person mad even if the personality or memories are retained.  Even if you don't become insane, you would have turned into something else as time goes by. 

Have you ever heard of an anime called Ghost in the Shell?  



One thing I thought of on Rannoch, the Reaper you speak to has cyclical logic, and is unable to deal with shepard's non-standard questions.  Reapers as we know them may simply be a VI interface (the outer shell) with the civilization preserved in data form as the "core".  The Reaper VI programmed to carry out its duties and continue the cycle.  Thats why the reaper on Rannoch cannot answer your questions, "no data available..."


------------


In this thread Patrick Weekes says this about the Human Reaper in ME2:

We
wanted to use the Suicide Mission to show several steps of the Reaper
development process, from human reaper embryo all the way to cuttlefish.
But the mission grew too complicated so it was cut for time.

He also says that he wants to do more with Harbinger.  These are paraphrases and not direct word for word quotes but they get the point across that theres still more about the reapers that they want to tell us.  this may be in dlc or the extended ending.  I'm interested to see where they go and how close I got to the mark.

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 10 avril 2012 - 11:37 .

[Myskal1981]

The word "plot hole" is a bit overused. Can we all call it inconsistencies leading to narrative incoherence. A bit long, but well.

The inconsistencies can have many reasons:
- Lots of speculation
- Gameplay reasons (the gun that never overheats and has unlimited ammo is one of those)
- Bugs (I would classify EDI showing up in destroy ending as such a bug)
- Cutscene oversights (like the fact that I see that damn Avenger Rifle in the cutscenes on Shepard or squaddies that do not use them)
- Bad Writing
- Budget Cuts

What bothers me the most is just the amount of inconsistencies (or however you want to call them), so explaining just a few of them won't be enough and will only result in counter-questions regarding the other ones.
The matter remains (at least for me) that there should not be this many and if the Extended Cut helps to solve the majority of them we will need to see whether it is enough. I still believe that even by clarifying the majority of them, this will still be a underwhelming ending as this ending introduces an important character and a major plot in the last five minutes. My Shepard never set out to solve the overall problem of organics vs. synthetics and whether it would be acceptable to "harvest" organics to preserve them.

There is no need to discuss the reasons the Reapers do what they do. Villains usually have stupid and illogical reasons anyway.

@OP: in my opinion the Relays explode in the blue ending and the mere fact that someone like Mike Gamble has to answer on Twitter that they were disabled (he says "disabled, yes" when asked whether they were destroyed, what? yes to destroyed, ...) sums up pretty good what is wrong with the endings.

Modifié par Myskal1981, 10 avril 2012 - 12:25 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont.  They destroy our militaries, which involves killing THEM, and then they harvest our civilians.  Anderson and Hacket mention how they're collecting our world leaders and how they're dealing with our civilians.  Its brought up over vidcom that our world leaders are being indoctrinated to urge people to support the reapers and do as they request of us to avoid bloodshed, just like what Saren tried to convince Shepard of.

They kill a lot more than just the militaries. They use widescale destruction even on planets they harvest and planets they don't are simpled wiped clean. 

Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation.

It kills people.
We don't know what actually is transfered in terms of consciousness, but considering all Reapers unquestionably follow the others/Catalyst and that they speak with singular voice means that for intends and purposes the individual people are destroyed to give live to this new (synthetic, since it is created) being. 
Perhaps these individual memories echo in the mind of these creation, but I doubt they are the driving force behind it.

IsaacShep wrote...
- TIM can control/indoctrinate Shep & Anderson because the he was researching indoctrination, control, Reaper signals and tech throughout his entire life and especially throughout ME3 and at the end he undergoes the procedure that gives him Reaper implants

Actually what we learn is that TIM learned to control the Reaper forces, by hijacking their signal. He can over take those with Reaper implants/modifications (such as husk and his own Cerberus Troops)

Why this suddenly makes him capable of physically controlling both Shepard and Anderson remains a mystery.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Myskal1981 wrote...

The matter remains (at least for me) that there should not be this many and if the Extended Cut helps to solve the majority of them we will need to see whether it is enough. I still believe that even by clarifying the majority of them, this will still be a underwhelming ending as this ending introduces an important character and a major plot in the last five minutes. My Shepard never set out to solve the overall problem of organics vs. synthetics and whether it would be acceptable to "harvest" organics to preserve them.

I feel as if the starchild and the "weird scifi stuff" surrounding him had been set up through the dreams and conversation with TIM about the nature of the reapers.


As far the organics vs synthetics thing, this complaint is one I dont understand.  Not only was it something that HAD been lingering throughout the series, but its also not a choice you're forced to accept.  It's a plea against destroying the reapers.  The option to destroy or control them was set up through the game well, and only synthesis ending begs you to lend yourself to this cause of synthetics vs organics.  The conflict was the explanation for the reapers' initial existence, and is one of three choices in the ending.  This, I feel, does not invalidate the dilemna the game was prepping you through conversations with TIM about Destroying the Reapers against Controlling them.  (ascension versus duty)

[TheCrazyHobo]

@Doctor_Jackstraw 

"Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.  Previous civilizations live on as reapers.  It makes sense if you know how physical your brain's thoughts and memories actually are.  Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.  Therefore this is a better fate for a civilization than just being wiped out entirely with no trace by thier robots.  Its archiving to avoid anahilation."



Ummm, did you play ME2 and watched as Lilith or Kelly were "preserved?" Their "physical" mind was in no way preserved.  The Collectors simply turn on the nanite blender and watch the goo flow! Also, I would love it if you could pull a source of where this is stated becasue I NEVER remember coming across any evidence in all three games that would suggest what you are saying is true.

Have a nice day.

Modifié par TheCrazyHobo, 10 avril 2012 - 10:07 .

[Meltemph]

Everytime I see people trying to explain the ending, the script/writing actually gets worse if what people think happened, actually happened. You are not doing BW any favors by trying to explain the issues away, you make them go from plot-holes to terrible writing.

Modifié par Meltemph, 10 avril 2012 - 10:10 .

[The Interloper]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Heres something: What if the species creates an AI capable of infecting and destroying the reapers?  Then what?  Then we're ****ed forever and no one is going to ever be alive on any planet ever again because this new AI will destroy all life indescriminately and without any foresight to preserve jack ****, they'll burn it all down and thats worse on a galactic scale.  

There is no evidence in the slightest that this was an imminant threat. The geth were completely in awe of the Reaper's processing power and only hated organics because the Reapers told them too. The Zha'Til were reportedly loosing to the Prothean empire. The whole thing is just one giant unproven theoratical scenario whose greatest proof is the reapers themselves. Organics devoloping WMDs that destroy the entire universe is more likely scenario, with the crucible and all. There's nothing wrong with the pruning analogy; I've had the same idea myself. But the reason for it makes no sense. It's like LOTR ended with Sauron saying "No, I'm conquering Middle earth to ensure a blooththirsty tyrant doesn't rise up and conquer middle earth and then blow it up. See, I'll kill all of you but won't blow it up." That's a perfectly fine reason, and a great distinction, right? I mean, we all know theoretical threats are more compelling then real ones.

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

  Also the important thing to remember is that those two pieces of machinery (the rods you grab and the engine components) dont do anything unless they are connected to the crucible.  Even if someone discovered them in the past they wouldn't DO anything because the crucible's energy isnt' flowing through them.  it'd just be some bits on the citadel, which already has many bits on it that people aren't aware of. 

The crucible has nothing to do with it. The fact remains that the citadel was built with the capability to theoretically release energy in that fashion; all you need to do is plug it in. It's like shaping a peg to fit in a round hole. Even if the hole is without the peg, it was still undeniably built with that peg in mind. The citadel having the built apparatus all in place for the crucible and the control/destroy ending is just all kinds of dumb. It would imply that the reapers/starchild designed it so it could be used just like Shepard uses it, which creates alot of questions.

[Ariq]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Reapers kill everyone.  No they dont.  They destroy our militaries, which involves killing THEM, and then they harvest our civilians.

Did you do the Collector Ship and Collector Base missions in ME2? There were corpses piled high in corners and tunnels. Thousands dead, and that was just a beginning. The Collector Base showed exactly what happens during harvesting. Ask Kelly Chambers, if she survived the ordeal. Ask Dr. Chakwas. If you can't believe your own eyes after watching Lilith vaporize into bloody shreds. The screams. The terror. The annihilation.

They die. That's what happens when you grind humans into paste. We've seen what else Reapers do with bodies: Husks, Abominations, Praetorians, Cannibals. These creatures don't retain personalities or sanity or even (it would appear) self-determination. They are puppets on the Reapers' strings. The process doesn't look altogether pleasant either, few people will opt for impalement, if given any other choice.

Harvesting people is the same as killing them.  Not exactly true.  They melt down our bodies but preserve our minds.

Nothing indicates this. It is a massive supposition on your part that is contradicted by everything we're shown in game. We see people die. We see the handiwork of the Reapers in the Husks and other horrors they unleash. We hear the terror of being held in the Collectors' Base. Mordin tells us that the alterations to the Collector are so profound that they are no longer Protheans. They have lost their culture, their beliefs, their souls. The Reapers do not have a culture that reflects a continued existance of the minds of their component species. They are alien, remote, untouched and inscrutable. Did you listen to Sovereign in ME? He doesn't regard the individual identities of his prey as worth saving. They are nothing to him. Vermin, filth, deserving of eradication. Harbinger echoes those sentiments throughout ME2.

Against that, you have...what? Wishful thinking? 

We know they destroy the body of the person 'harvested'.
We know they destroy the minds of husks, etc. 
We know they destroyed the culture of their Collector tools.
We know they see no value in the individual. 

There is nothing that says the individual is preserved in some meaningful way. The human mind is not synonymous with the encoding on a strand of DNA. You can easily preserve the latter long after the former has been killed. Or liquified. Or pumped into a giant robot ship.

Killing your body and preserving your physical mind in a big flying metal casket is different from just being killed outright, a piece of who you are and who your people were lives on in these machine hybrids.

When you see Lilith (or Kelly) liquified, at what point was her physical brain preserved? Before or after the liquification part?

[Giantdeathrobot]

Your grasp of the obvious is inspiring. Seriously, these points have been made again and again and again, and the differences are so minor anyway (ask the Normandy SR2's crew how pleasant it was to be reduced to goo and then presumably wake up as only one entity in a monstruous, genocidal collective) that they don't really matter. Only Anderson and TIM's presence are OK points, because he says the walls shift. Yeah, OK, for whatever reason, just roll with it, it makes for a great sequence of events up until the Deus Ex Machina beam.

Oh, and if we play the ''refuting the whiny fan's plot holes'' game, why not go for the major leagues?

docs.google.com/document/d/1QT4IUepvrU1pfv_B95oQj0H84DlCTUmzQ_uQh1voTUs/preview

There, provide a counterpoint to each that isin't ''you just don't understand'' or ''but it's artistic vision'' or whatever.

[ShatterSh0t]

2484Stryker wrote...

Nice one, OP, way to ignore the true problems with the ending.

I salute you.

/cosign

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Check out this video, it disproves many inconsistencies from that doc.

I did have a big fat post typed up responding to every single element of that doc but it was too big so I'm going to just address it in smaller segments at a time. It'll be easier to edit, rewrite, and deal with if I have to rebuild my post if firefox crashes or something (Its a rather large doc so this is relaly the only way I can respond to it)

that video should cover alot of descriptors about the ending that people had problems with though. The epilogue to destroy was actually on the citadel, anderson DID come from another pathway, ect. I was actually surprised at seeing that the debree from the breath scene WAS in that environment. I didnt question shepard being on the citadel at the time i beat the game, but now i'm interested to see what they do.


Also about the death thing...i mean the idea of transcending corporeal form into this "ascension" is something thats hard to swallow for people, and yes the entire point of it is whether you agree or not, but its a narrative theme found in plenty of fiction.  The conflict isn't whether it makes sense or not, its whether you agree with it or not, which is supposed to effect the player in making thier ending decision but bioware rushed the ending so nothing made sense to anyone.  They can fix it but it might not fix people's overall feelings on that game since they DID end up experiencing that rushed version of the ending.


about shepard being in an "open space" environment, i guess they dont know thier codex.  Theres a reason shepard didnt get sucked out into the vaccume of space when soverign's claw smashed into the council chambers, the citadel wards codex mentions that a breathable atmosphere is maintained within a span of about 7 meters from what you could call "ground level".  (otherwise terrorists could wipe out entire wards by smashing a ship through a glass wall)

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 17 avril 2012 - 01:35 .

[SparkyRich]

So, I'm gonna come over and put your brain in a blender and then put it in my freezer. You're not dead, you're a Refridgereaper. It's totally different than killing you.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

Well thats the arguement, and its used thorughout scifi. This specific scenario doesnt show up in say, ghost in the shell, but the idea of human mind being something you can "put somewhere" after disposing the body and keep you alive...its come up in tons of scifi. networking intelligence into one mind is another concept. Yeah you the guy named Sparky Rich probably wouldn't appreciate it and you would probably lose your individuality but thats what the whole "ascension" and "hivemind" theme is about.

the idea is that you're converting life from one form to another, arguably more "advanced" form.  thats what the reapers are doing.  You're supposed to disagree with it.  its "beyond our comprehension", but its not invalid as a thematic element.  Thats why all 3 choices are about stopping this cycle.  (though you could argue blue ending is probably abit TOO ambiguous in how this works)

Modifié par Doctor_Jackstraw, 17 avril 2012 - 01:43 .