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Why is it OK for Shepard to live in extended cut Red ending if he still commits genocide?


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#301
Provo_101

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alienatedflea wrote...

scrapmetals wrote...

The kid said Destroy would kill Shepard.

It didn't. So who's to say Destroy killed the Geth?

And many people have seen Edi step out of the Normandy when they chose Destroy. I wasn't one of them though. (Part of my reason for picking Destroy was to get rid of her anyway.)

The kid didnt say shepard would die if he chose destroy...he said that even shepard is partly synthetic...doesnt mean shepard would die...CLEARLY we see this at the end.  Genocide only applies to organics...Not synthetics...


Don't tell that to EDI.

#302
CronoDragoon

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gammazero79 wrote...

So speaking fan to fan were you bothered by the ends at all? I mean honestly how did the rest of the end make sense to you? [not insulting I truly want to know] Joker running away, the scene on the garden planet, the fact that your war assets were little more than a number, the lack of explanation and options, ect..... 



Responding at the risk that my response somehow be interpreted as an "official" response.... :lol:




This is a fair and well-thought out response, Allan. My only comment would be that I think people felt ME3's ending lacked choice because in ME1 and ME2 the ending choice was fairly cut-and-dry. Save the Base or destroy it. Kill Saren or convince him he was wrong. They are choices that well reflect the point of Mass Effect's choice system : Paragon/Renegade dichotomy. There's nothing like that in ME3's ending, and on top of that the galaxy gets reset to the stone age regardless of what we do. It's a forced bad ending instead of a forced triumphant one like ME1 and 2 (even in 2, you beat the Collectors even if your squad dies).

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 07 avril 2012 - 10:11 .


#303
Jacobcus

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gammazero79 wrote...

So speaking fan to fan were you bothered by the ends at all? I mean honestly how did the rest of the end make sense to you? [not insulting I truly want to know] Joker running away, the scene on the garden planet, the fact that your war assets were little more than a number, the lack of explanation and options, ect..... 



Responding at the risk that my response somehow be interpreted as an "official" response.... :lol:

As a show of good faith though, I'll share my thoughts.  It's important to note here that I finished the game probably around the 14th, so I had heard rumors about how bad the ending was so I went into it preparing for some awful stuff to happen, which made me innately more accepting of whatever it was I was about to see.


On the whole, I found the ending to be a let down compared to the rest of the game.  I think this is more of a reflection of how highly I thought of the rest of the game than anything else though.  Rannoch and Tuchanka were phenomenol, and the usage of the ME1 theme at those points brings me goosebumps just typing about it now.  So yeah, the ending wasn't up to the quality of the rest of the game.


I found the ending choices to be too inspired by the original Deus Ex, but I also didn't outright mind the scene on the Citadel, even if I found it strange and a Diabolus Ex Machina.  The thing for me was that the Crucible was a giant unknown, so it wasn't too difficult for me to accept that it might react in ways that I didn't expect or didn't necessarily want though, so the options presented to me weren't enough to remove my suspension of disbelief.  As a result I didn't mind the relays getting destroyed (I haven't played Arrival so I had no prior idea for what might happen when a relay is destroyed).


As for Joker, I didn't actually think much at the time as to WHY Joker was running, but I did find the garden planet scene confusing.  In retrospect, I wouldn't have included the stuff with the Normandy because I found it confusing.

With respect to explanation, I'm assuming you're referring to some type of closure?  I am not actually the type of person that needs all that much explanation of what happens after.  While there's definitely a part of me that would love to know what happens in the immediate aftermath, there's also a part of me that associates the game as being Shepard's story, and that part of me likes that I, as the game player, have to make my decision knowing that I'll not know the full implications of my decision, just like Shepard.  And I actually did enjoy wondering what happens to the galaxy and have had some fun discussions with some friends and co-workers about it.  I think the big thing here is whether or not you believe the galaxy is totally kaput (I don't.  And I'm saying that with no additional information and I don't want anyone to think that i'm hinting towards anything for the upcoming ending DLC or anything like that).


Regarding War Assets, after the game and reading some of the thoughts around the Net, I started to wonder if I misunderstood the real representation of the War Assets.  I think I am like a lot of other people, in that we saw War Assets as being a kickass military asset.  Though given the way the endings play out with lower war score, it seems there's more emphasis on the War Assets as a team building/protecting the crucible, as opposed to the ability to fight the reapers.  I would have loved to see situations on Earth that demonstrated my choices, such as fighting along Geth/Rachni, etc.  It's a shame that it didn't happen the way I had hoped.


As for "options," this is going to be a place where I likely differ in opinion from a lot of fans.  I've actually always considered Mass Effect's choices to be more superficial than a lot of other people, especially when concerning the key antagonist.  In the end my only option in ME1 is to defeat  Saren and Sovereign.  I can talk Saren down but ultimately still had to fight in in some capacity (I hated this actually... I would have loved to just talk Saren down and let that be the end of it).  ME2 has some interesting reactivity in whether or not parts of your squad survive, but to me the same ultimate ending happens, just with differences in who makes the end.  Only at the end are we presented with a choice and it doesn't have any effect on the ending for ME2.

So would I have loved more choice in ME3's ending?  Yes.  But I'd have also loved more choice in ME1 and ME2's ending, which I felt were sorely lacking.  So I hesitate to state that my disappointment with ME3's choice is a reflection of solely ME3's ending.  I think it was an issue with all 3 Mass Effect games.


Anyways, I am actually getting quite hungry and should go get some food.  I obviously don't respond too much but I'll try to make an effort to chime in later if people have any relevant comments.



EDIT: Wall of text crits you all for 9999.... :whistle:

Wow, first non Bias opinion I have heard from a Bioware Employee, Kudos.

#304
legion999

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Allan Schumacher wrote...
Snip.
EDIT: Wall of text crits you all for 9999.... :whistle:


I'm immune to walls of text.

Anyway I agree with you that the rest of the game is of far better quality than the ending. Though it seems I disliked it more and am more outraged about it.

#305
CitizenSnips28

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Thank you Allan Schumacher. Posting your honest opinion was a wicked gutsy move and I respect you for that. Now hopefully you don't get a very unpleasant call from some higher ups. :/

#306
M0keys

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Just remember Alan is not an ME-team employee! He's Dragon Age, and had no idea what ME3 was going to be about! :)

#307
Reptilian Rob

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Jacobcus wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gammazero79 wrote...

So speaking fan to fan were you bothered by the ends at all? I mean honestly how did the rest of the end make sense to you? [not insulting I truly want to know] Joker running away, the scene on the garden planet, the fact that your war assets were little more than a number, the lack of explanation and options, ect..... 



Responding at the risk that my response somehow be interpreted as an "official" response.... :lol:

As a show of good faith though, I'll share my thoughts.  It's important to note here that I finished the game probably around the 14th, so I had heard rumors about how bad the ending was so I went into it preparing for some awful stuff to happen, which made me innately more accepting of whatever it was I was about to see.


On the whole, I found the ending to be a let down compared to the rest of the game.  I think this is more of a reflection of how highly I thought of the rest of the game than anything else though.  Rannoch and Tuchanka were phenomenol, and the usage of the ME1 theme at those points brings me goosebumps just typing about it now.  So yeah, the ending wasn't up to the quality of the rest of the game.


I found the ending choices to be too inspired by the original Deus Ex, but I also didn't outright mind the scene on the Citadel, even if I found it strange and a Diabolus Ex Machina.  The thing for me was that the Crucible was a giant unknown, so it wasn't too difficult for me to accept that it might react in ways that I didn't expect or didn't necessarily want though, so the options presented to me weren't enough to remove my suspension of disbelief.  As a result I didn't mind the relays getting destroyed (I haven't played Arrival so I had no prior idea for what might happen when a relay is destroyed).


As for Joker, I didn't actually think much at the time as to WHY Joker was running, but I did find the garden planet scene confusing.  In retrospect, I wouldn't have included the stuff with the Normandy because I found it confusing.

With respect to explanation, I'm assuming you're referring to some type of closure?  I am not actually the type of person that needs all that much explanation of what happens after.  While there's definitely a part of me that would love to know what happens in the immediate aftermath, there's also a part of me that associates the game as being Shepard's story, and that part of me likes that I, as the game player, have to make my decision knowing that I'll not know the full implications of my decision, just like Shepard.  And I actually did enjoy wondering what happens to the galaxy and have had some fun discussions with some friends and co-workers about it.  I think the big thing here is whether or not you believe the galaxy is totally kaput (I don't.  And I'm saying that with no additional information and I don't want anyone to think that i'm hinting towards anything for the upcoming ending DLC or anything like that).


Regarding War Assets, after the game and reading some of the thoughts around the Net, I started to wonder if I misunderstood the real representation of the War Assets.  I think I am like a lot of other people, in that we saw War Assets as being a kickass military asset.  Though given the way the endings play out with lower war score, it seems there's more emphasis on the War Assets as a team building/protecting the crucible, as opposed to the ability to fight the reapers.  I would have loved to see situations on Earth that demonstrated my choices, such as fighting along Geth/Rachni, etc.  It's a shame that it didn't happen the way I had hoped.


As for "options," this is going to be a place where I likely differ in opinion from a lot of fans.  I've actually always considered Mass Effect's choices to be more superficial than a lot of other people, especially when concerning the key antagonist.  In the end my only option in ME1 is to defeat  Saren and Sovereign.  I can talk Saren down but ultimately still had to fight in in some capacity (I hated this actually... I would have loved to just talk Saren down and let that be the end of it).  ME2 has some interesting reactivity in whether or not parts of your squad survive, but to me the same ultimate ending happens, just with differences in who makes the end.  Only at the end are we presented with a choice and it doesn't have any effect on the ending for ME2.

So would I have loved more choice in ME3's ending?  Yes.  But I'd have also loved more choice in ME1 and ME2's ending, which I felt were sorely lacking.  So I hesitate to state that my disappointment with ME3's choice is a reflection of solely ME3's ending.  I think it was an issue with all 3 Mass Effect games.


Anyways, I am actually getting quite hungry and should go get some food.  I obviously don't respond too much but I'll try to make an effort to chime in later if people have any relevant comments.



EDIT: Wall of text crits you all for 9999.... :whistle:

Wow, first non Bias opinion I have heard from a Bioware Employee, Kudos.

It's very refreshing, yes. 

#308
anlk92

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Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

All three endings are horrible, but Destroy is the least awful of the three. If you don't want the guilt of killing the geth, though, metagame and get Tali exiled and then side with her in the argument with Legion instead of using the persuade option. Then peace will be impossible, and the deaths of the geth will be on Gerrel's hands, not yours.


Crap solution is crap.

I agree it's far from optimal, but since they're not changing the endings, we (unfortunately) have to work with what we've got. I don't like it either, but at this point all we can do is make the most of a crappy situation.


I think they may let the Geth survive in the Shepard lives ending. I'm not holding my breath for it but it is the least Bioware can do.

#309
Norman250

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gammazero79 wrote...

So speaking fan to fan were you bothered by the ends at all? I mean honestly how did the rest of the end make sense to you? [not insulting I truly want to know] Joker running away, the scene on the garden planet, the fact that your war assets were little more than a number, the lack of explanation and options, ect..... 



Responding at the risk that my response somehow be interpreted as an "official" response.... :lol:

As a show of good faith though, I'll share my thoughts.  It's important to note here that I finished the game probably around the 14th, so I had heard rumors about how bad the ending was so I went into it preparing for some awful stuff to happen, which made me innately more accepting of whatever it was I was about to see.


On the whole, I found the ending to be a let down compared to the rest of the game.  I think this is more of a reflection of how highly I thought of the rest of the game than anything else though.  Rannoch and Tuchanka were phenomenol, and the usage of the ME1 theme at those points brings me goosebumps just typing about it now.  So yeah, the ending wasn't up to the quality of the rest of the game.


I found the ending choices to be too inspired by the original Deus Ex, but I also didn't outright mind the scene on the Citadel, even if I found it strange and a Diabolus Ex Machina.  The thing for me was that the Crucible was a giant unknown, so it wasn't too difficult for me to accept that it might react in ways that I didn't expect or didn't necessarily want though, so the options presented to me weren't enough to remove my suspension of disbelief.  As a result I didn't mind the relays getting destroyed (I haven't played Arrival so I had no prior idea for what might happen when a relay is destroyed).


As for Joker, I didn't actually think much at the time as to WHY Joker was running, but I did find the garden planet scene confusing.  In retrospect, I wouldn't have included the stuff with the Normandy because I found it confusing.

With respect to explanation, I'm assuming you're referring to some type of closure?  I am not actually the type of person that needs all that much explanation of what happens after.  While there's definitely a part of me that would love to know what happens in the immediate aftermath, there's also a part of me that associates the game as being Shepard's story, and that part of me likes that I, as the game player, have to make my decision knowing that I'll not know the full implications of my decision, just like Shepard.  And I actually did enjoy wondering what happens to the galaxy and have had some fun discussions with some friends and co-workers about it.  I think the big thing here is whether or not you believe the galaxy is totally kaput (I don't.  And I'm saying that with no additional information and I don't want anyone to think that i'm hinting towards anything for the upcoming ending DLC or anything like that).


Regarding War Assets, after the game and reading some of the thoughts around the Net, I started to wonder if I misunderstood the real representation of the War Assets.  I think I am like a lot of other people, in that we saw War Assets as being a kickass military asset.  Though given the way the endings play out with lower war score, it seems there's more emphasis on the War Assets as a team building/protecting the crucible, as opposed to the ability to fight the reapers.  I would have loved to see situations on Earth that demonstrated my choices, such as fighting along Geth/Rachni, etc.  It's a shame that it didn't happen the way I had hoped.


As for "options," this is going to be a place where I likely differ in opinion from a lot of fans.  I've actually always considered Mass Effect's choices to be more superficial than a lot of other people, especially when concerning the key antagonist.  In the end my only option in ME1 is to defeat  Saren and Sovereign.  I can talk Saren down but ultimately still had to fight in in some capacity (I hated this actually... I would have loved to just talk Saren down and let that be the end of it).  ME2 has some interesting reactivity in whether or not parts of your squad survive, but to me the same ultimate ending happens, just with differences in who makes the end.  Only at the end are we presented with a choice and it doesn't have any effect on the ending for ME2.

So would I have loved more choice in ME3's ending?  Yes.  But I'd have also loved more choice in ME1 and ME2's ending, which I felt were sorely lacking.  So I hesitate to state that my disappointment with ME3's choice is a reflection of solely ME3's ending.  I think it was an issue with all 3 Mass Effect games.


Anyways, I am actually getting quite hungry and should go get some food.  I obviously don't respond too much but I'll try to make an effort to chime in later if people have any relevant comments.



EDIT: Wall of text crits you all for 9999.... :whistle:


Appreciate the candid response. And I have to agree, any misgivings I have about the endings are born entirely out of how much I loved the rest of the game. 

#310
legion999

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(

You've already done it a couple of times in Mass Effect. ME2 especially.


When did this happen?

#311
M0keys

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M0keys wrote...

Just remember Allan is not an ME-team employee! He's Dragon Age, and had no idea what ME3 was going to be about! :)



#312
M0keys

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legion999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(

You've already done it a couple of times in Mass Effect. ME2 especially.


When did this happen?


Yeah, I wanna know about this, too. Maybe the guy had a renegade Shepard and doesn't know there were other choices?

#313
Achire

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Speaking of Planescape: Torment, maybe you should've been taking notes on how to pull off a satisfying bittersweet ending? Nevermind the perfection that is Fallout 1's ending.

#314
Hudathan

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It's possible to commit genocide as early as ME1 and it doesn't stop there. It's nothing new in the series and it's certainly not new to the ending of ME3.

#315
DaosX

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gammazero79 wrote...

So speaking fan to fan were you bothered by the ends at all? I mean honestly how did the rest of the end make sense to you? [not insulting I truly want to know] Joker running away, the scene on the garden planet, the fact that your war assets were little more than a number, the lack of explanation and options, ect..... 


Responding at the risk that my response somehow be interpreted as an "official" response.... :lol:

As a show of good faith though, I'll share my thoughts.  It's important to note here that I finished the game probably around the 14th, so I had heard rumors about how bad the ending was so I went into it preparing for some awful stuff to happen, which made me innately more accepting of whatever it was I was about to see.

On the whole, I found the ending to be a let down compared to the rest of the game.  I think this is more of a reflection of how highly I thought of the rest of the game than anything else though.  Rannoch and Tuchanka were phenomenol, and the usage of the ME1 theme at those points brings me goosebumps just typing about it now.  So yeah, the ending wasn't up to the quality of the rest of the game.

I found the ending choices to be too inspired by the original Deus Ex, but I also didn't outright mind the scene on the Citadel, even if I found it strange and a Diabolus Ex Machina.  The thing for me was that the Crucible was a giant unknown, so it wasn't too difficult for me to accept that it might react in ways that I didn't expect or didn't necessarily want though, so the options presented to me weren't enough to remove my suspension of disbelief.  As a result I didn't mind the relays getting destroyed (I haven't played Arrival so I had no prior idea for what might happen when a relay is destroyed).

As for Joker, I didn't actually think much at the time as to WHY Joker was running, but I did find the garden planet scene confusing.  In retrospect, I wouldn't have included the stuff with the Normandy because I found it confusing.

With respect to explanation, I'm assuming you're referring to some type of closure?  I am not actually the type of person that needs all that much explanation of what happens after.  While there's definitely a part of me that would love to know what happens in the immediate aftermath, there's also a part of me that associates the game as being Shepard's story, and that part of me likes that I, as the game player, have to make my decision knowing that I'll not know the full implications of my decision, just like Shepard.  And I actually did enjoy wondering what happens to the galaxy and have had some fun discussions with some friends and co-workers about it.  I think the big thing here is whether or not you believe the galaxy is totally kaput (I don't.  And I'm saying that with no additional information and I don't want anyone to think that i'm hinting towards anything for the upcoming ending DLC or anything like that).

Regarding War Assets, after the game and reading some of the thoughts around the Net, I started to wonder if I misunderstood the real representation of the War Assets.  I think I am like a lot of other people, in that we saw War Assets as being a kickass military asset.  Though given the way the endings play out with lower war score, it seems there's more emphasis on the War Assets as a team building/protecting the crucible, as opposed to the ability to fight the reapers.  I would have loved to see situations on Earth that demonstrated my choices, such as fighting along Geth/Rachni, etc.  It's a shame that it didn't happen the way I had hoped.


As for "options," this is going to be a place where I likely differ in opinion from a lot of fans.  I've actually always considered Mass Effect's choices to be more superficial than a lot of other people, especially when concerning the key antagonist.  In the end my only option in ME1 is to defeat  Saren and Sovereign.  I can talk Saren down but ultimately still had to fight in in some capacity (I hated this actually... I would have loved to just talk Saren down and let that be the end of it).  ME2 has some interesting reactivity in whether or not parts of your squad survive, but to me the same ultimate ending happens, just with differences in who makes the end.  Only at the end are we presented with a choice and it doesn't have any effect on the ending for ME2.

So would I have loved more choice in ME3's ending?  Yes.  But I'd have also loved more choice in ME1 and ME2's ending, which I felt were sorely lacking.  So I hesitate to state that my disappointment with ME3's choice is a reflection of solely ME3's ending.  I think it was an issue with all 3 Mass Effect games.

Anyways, I am actually getting quite hungry and should go get some food.  I obviously don't respond too much but I'll try to make an effort to chime in later if people have any relevant comments.
EDIT: Wall of text crits you all for 9999.... :whistle:


Thanks for the input. It's a little reassuring to see that there's at least one person in BW who seems like an actual human being with real thoughts and opinions rather than a PR machine.

#316
CronoDragoon

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M0keys wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(

You've already done it a couple of times in Mass Effect. ME2 especially.


When did this happen?


Yeah, I wanna know about this, too. Maybe the guy had a renegade Shepard and doesn't know there were other choices?


Maybe he's referring to Arrival, which I haven't played. Also, didn't people hate Arrival because it was a fake-choice? Sounds familiar.

#317
anlk92

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M0keys wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(

You've already done it a couple of times in Mass Effect. ME2 especially.


...I... I did?

When?


With Collectors I guess. Though that's obviously not the same thing and we just blew up their home really. There must be some more of them left scattered around the galaxy.

Edit:^^ If I'm not mistaken in Arrival Shepard wasn't able to stop that from happening. I mean we weren't given a choice because there wasn't anything Shepard could do.

Modifié par anlk92, 07 avril 2012 - 10:20 .


#318
Skull Bearer

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Note, I'm assuming (perhaps naively) that when Bioware says no one starves, they mean it, and that the Relays will be rebuilt and the galaxy back in roughly the state it was in before within about a decade or two. It might be dumb of me to think Bioware will bother to clarify that, but frankly that hope if the only thing allowing my Shepard to do anything other than sit and wait for the Reapers to blow up the Crucible.

That being said, taking the Destroy option makes a weird kind of sense to my Geth loving, utterly xenophile, never considers genocide Shepard. It's forcing him to do the worse thing he can possibly imagine, to a race he considers possibly the most noble in the galaxy. Also to the race with the least stakes in the galaxy: this is not the Geth's war. If the wanted, they could have sat behind the Perseus Veil and waiting until the Reapers had finished. They are fighting because they cannot sit by and no nothing in the face of omnicide. That's pretty damn noble.

And Shepard has to kill them (the other options weren't to be thought of, he'd be letting the Reapers win).

That's... quite interesting character development, actually. Particularly since he survived. Survived in a galaxy where he'd done the worst thing he can possibly imagine, and everyone is hailing him as a hero for it.

It which point, my Shepard quietly disappears from the galaxy, and spends the rest of his time with Admiral Koris and the few other people who had the sense to be horrified by what he did, slowly rebuilding the Geth's code from scratch.

Which is a bit of a double victory, a change for redemption and forgiveness for Shepard, and a chance to really rub the bastard godchild's face in it. The Reapers are dead, the Godchild's logic broken, and Shepard is going to build a better galaxy with his bare hands if he has to.

#319
Kanon777

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The Angry One wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

But that doesn't make destroy the "best". It might look that way superficially, but it isn't
It's still a victory for the Reaper agenda, that the Reapers themselves are killed is largely irrelevant.


How is this a "victory" for the reapers if organics can rebuild the geth and any other synthetic that died? As long as there are organic civilizations, new synthetics can be created...


Saying that the Geth can die and be rebuilt is like saying a person can be killed, because their parents can conceive a sibling that will be exactly the same.


Therefore its not genocide. Because genocide implies you are trying to destroy a group of people forever...

#320
Jacobcus

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M0keys wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just remember Allan is not an ME-team employee! He's Dragon Age, and had no idea what ME3 was going to be about! :)

Yes but he is still an employee and I give him credz for openly stating his opinion, unlike Rooster Teeth, Penny Arcade, and other Bias game industry/Bioware people.

#321
Visserian99

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gammazero79 wrote...

So speaking fan to fan were you bothered by the ends at all? I mean honestly how did the rest of the end make sense to you? [not insulting I truly want to know] Joker running away, the scene on the garden planet, the fact that your war assets were little more than a number, the lack of explanation and options, ect..... 



Responding at the risk that my response somehow be interpreted as an "official" response.... :lol:

As a show of good faith though, I'll share my thoughts.  It's important to note here that I finished the game probably around the 14th, so I had heard rumors about how bad the ending was so I went into it preparing for some awful stuff to happen, which made me innately more accepting of whatever it was I was about to see.


On the whole, I found the ending to be a let down compared to the rest of the game.  I think this is more of a reflection of how highly I thought of the rest of the game than anything else though.  Rannoch and Tuchanka were phenomenol, and the usage of the ME1 theme at those points brings me goosebumps just typing about it now.  So yeah, the ending wasn't up to the quality of the rest of the game.


I found the ending choices to be too inspired by the original Deus Ex, but I also didn't outright mind the scene on the Citadel, even if I found it strange and a Diabolus Ex Machina.  The thing for me was that the Crucible was a giant unknown, so it wasn't too difficult for me to accept that it might react in ways that I didn't expect or didn't necessarily want though, so the options presented to me weren't enough to remove my suspension of disbelief.  As a result I didn't mind the relays getting destroyed (I haven't played Arrival so I had no prior idea for what might happen when a relay is destroyed).


As for Joker, I didn't actually think much at the time as to WHY Joker was running, but I did find the garden planet scene confusing.  In retrospect, I wouldn't have included the stuff with the Normandy because I found it confusing.

With respect to explanation, I'm assuming you're referring to some type of closure?  I am not actually the type of person that needs all that much explanation of what happens after.  While there's definitely a part of me that would love to know what happens in the immediate aftermath, there's also a part of me that associates the game as being Shepard's story, and that part of me likes that I, as the game player, have to make my decision knowing that I'll not know the full implications of my decision, just like Shepard.  And I actually did enjoy wondering what happens to the galaxy and have had some fun discussions with some friends and co-workers about it.  I think the big thing here is whether or not you believe the galaxy is totally kaput (I don't.  And I'm saying that with no additional information and I don't want anyone to think that i'm hinting towards anything for the upcoming ending DLC or anything like that).


Regarding War Assets, after the game and reading some of the thoughts around the Net, I started to wonder if I misunderstood the real representation of the War Assets.  I think I am like a lot of other people, in that we saw War Assets as being a kickass military asset.  Though given the way the endings play out with lower war score, it seems there's more emphasis on the War Assets as a team building/protecting the crucible, as opposed to the ability to fight the reapers.  I would have loved to see situations on Earth that demonstrated my choices, such as fighting along Geth/Rachni, etc.  It's a shame that it didn't happen the way I had hoped.


As for "options," this is going to be a place where I likely differ in opinion from a lot of fans.  I've actually always considered Mass Effect's choices to be more superficial than a lot of other people, especially when concerning the key antagonist.  In the end my only option in ME1 is to defeat  Saren and Sovereign.  I can talk Saren down but ultimately still had to fight in in some capacity (I hated this actually... I would have loved to just talk Saren down and let that be the end of it).  ME2 has some interesting reactivity in whether or not parts of your squad survive, but to me the same ultimate ending happens, just with differences in who makes the end.  Only at the end are we presented with a choice and it doesn't have any effect on the ending for ME2.

So would I have loved more choice in ME3's ending?  Yes.  But I'd have also loved more choice in ME1 and ME2's ending, which I felt were sorely lacking.  So I hesitate to state that my disappointment with ME3's choice is a reflection of solely ME3's ending.  I think it was an issue with all 3 Mass Effect games.


Anyways, I am actually getting quite hungry and should go get some food.  I obviously don't respond too much but I'll try to make an effort to chime in later if people have any relevant comments.



EDIT: Wall of text crits you all for 9999.... :whistle:


Thanks for sharing your opinion. I agree with parts of it myself, particularly the love for the Rannoch and Tunchanka parts. I am forced to disagree with your assessment on the ME choices being superficial. While on a meta-level you can definitely argue that they are, on the more personal level they don't feel like they are, and thats why I loved to make sure I did them anyway. Sure letting Samara die for instance, doesn't influence much, but on a personal level I liked her story and her sense of tragedy and pushed me forward to make sure she and eventually her daughter survived. 

I cared about the personal relationships between the characters and the galaxy at large, and the illusion of choice and consequences the series provided for me.  I think that the greatest flaw in the ending is that the illusion of choice is broken.

My first instinct, and I suspect the instinct of many other players, was to argue with the Catalyst's logic when he presented it. I was waiting for either a paragon/renegade interrupt or a dialogue wheel to argue the point. To show him he is completely wrong and give examples on why using examples from Shepard's story to do so. When that wasn't done, the illusion of choice was shattered, and that broke my suspension of disbelief. Once that happened, everything that happened afterwards (ie The Normandy leaving combat and its crash) just felt so wrong and disjointed that I dismissed it out of hand as wildly out-of-character for both Joker, EDI, and my squad, and the crew. It became impossible for me to reconcile it.

#322
Norman250

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DaosX wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gammazero79 wrote...

So speaking fan to fan were you bothered by the ends at all? I mean honestly how did the rest of the end make sense to you? [not insulting I truly want to know] Joker running away, the scene on the garden planet, the fact that your war assets were little more than a number, the lack of explanation and options, ect..... 


Responding at the risk that my response somehow be interpreted as an "official" response.... :lol:

As a show of good faith though, I'll share my thoughts.  It's important to note here that I finished the game probably around the 14th, so I had heard rumors about how bad the ending was so I went into it preparing for some awful stuff to happen, which made me innately more accepting of whatever it was I was about to see.

On the whole, I found the ending to be a let down compared to the rest of the game.  I think this is more of a reflection of how highly I thought of the rest of the game than anything else though.  Rannoch and Tuchanka were phenomenol, and the usage of the ME1 theme at those points brings me goosebumps just typing about it now.  So yeah, the ending wasn't up to the quality of the rest of the game.

I found the ending choices to be too inspired by the original Deus Ex, but I also didn't outright mind the scene on the Citadel, even if I found it strange and a Diabolus Ex Machina.  The thing for me was that the Crucible was a giant unknown, so it wasn't too difficult for me to accept that it might react in ways that I didn't expect or didn't necessarily want though, so the options presented to me weren't enough to remove my suspension of disbelief.  As a result I didn't mind the relays getting destroyed (I haven't played Arrival so I had no prior idea for what might happen when a relay is destroyed).

As for Joker, I didn't actually think much at the time as to WHY Joker was running, but I did find the garden planet scene confusing.  In retrospect, I wouldn't have included the stuff with the Normandy because I found it confusing.

With respect to explanation, I'm assuming you're referring to some type of closure?  I am not actually the type of person that needs all that much explanation of what happens after.  While there's definitely a part of me that would love to know what happens in the immediate aftermath, there's also a part of me that associates the game as being Shepard's story, and that part of me likes that I, as the game player, have to make my decision knowing that I'll not know the full implications of my decision, just like Shepard.  And I actually did enjoy wondering what happens to the galaxy and have had some fun discussions with some friends and co-workers about it.  I think the big thing here is whether or not you believe the galaxy is totally kaput (I don't.  And I'm saying that with no additional information and I don't want anyone to think that i'm hinting towards anything for the upcoming ending DLC or anything like that).

Regarding War Assets, after the game and reading some of the thoughts around the Net, I started to wonder if I misunderstood the real representation of the War Assets.  I think I am like a lot of other people, in that we saw War Assets as being a kickass military asset.  Though given the way the endings play out with lower war score, it seems there's more emphasis on the War Assets as a team building/protecting the crucible, as opposed to the ability to fight the reapers.  I would have loved to see situations on Earth that demonstrated my choices, such as fighting along Geth/Rachni, etc.  It's a shame that it didn't happen the way I had hoped.


As for "options," this is going to be a place where I likely differ in opinion from a lot of fans.  I've actually always considered Mass Effect's choices to be more superficial than a lot of other people, especially when concerning the key antagonist.  In the end my only option in ME1 is to defeat  Saren and Sovereign.  I can talk Saren down but ultimately still had to fight in in some capacity (I hated this actually... I would have loved to just talk Saren down and let that be the end of it).  ME2 has some interesting reactivity in whether or not parts of your squad survive, but to me the same ultimate ending happens, just with differences in who makes the end.  Only at the end are we presented with a choice and it doesn't have any effect on the ending for ME2.

So would I have loved more choice in ME3's ending?  Yes.  But I'd have also loved more choice in ME1 and ME2's ending, which I felt were sorely lacking.  So I hesitate to state that my disappointment with ME3's choice is a reflection of solely ME3's ending.  I think it was an issue with all 3 Mass Effect games.

Anyways, I am actually getting quite hungry and should go get some food.  I obviously don't respond too much but I'll try to make an effort to chime in later if people have any relevant comments.
EDIT: Wall of text crits you all for 9999.... :whistle:


Thanks for the input. It's a little reassuring to see that there's at least one person in BW who seems like an actual human being with real thoughts and opinions rather than a PR machine.



To be fair, he has the luxury of it not being is own work. If anyone on the ME team expresses dislike for the endings, hundreds of people would clamor, "OH, BIOWARE MUST BE PLANNING ON MAJORLY CHANGING IT"

#323
Joy Sauce

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I think it's simply that BioWare felt that Shepard "needed" to sacrifice himself for the sake of an "artistic" ending. By making the destroy option the least appealing (assuming you take everything at face value) & the only one that would allow Shepard to survive would make most players choose an ending where Shepard nobly sacrifices him/herself, because only an **** would be unwilling to sacrifice himself for the greater good. Of course this argument falls apart if you played the game without walkthroughs or anything, because the player goes in assuming that all endings will kill you, but it was just a thought.

#324
M0keys

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CronoDragoon wrote...

M0keys wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(

You've already done it a couple of times in Mass Effect. ME2 especially.


When did this happen?


Yeah, I wanna know about this, too. Maybe the guy had a renegade Shepard and doesn't know there were other choices?


Maybe he's referring to Arrival, which I haven't played. Also, didn't people hate Arrival because it was a fake-choice? Sounds familiar.


It was forced. You had no chance to save the Batarians.

There was supposed to be a court case at the beginning of ME3 where everything was covered, as you could see, but it got severely shortened in order to have a big action sequence at the beginning.

TBH, they should've used a tried and true tactic of some stories and put a snippet of a major ending battle right at the beginning. Then you flash back to Earth after the heart-racing opening and have a proper trial. That way you can have a tutorial for newbies, but not sacrifice the plot for the sake of ... the plot. If that makes any sense.

#325
Dean_the_Young

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anlk92 wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(

You've already done it a couple of times in Mass Effect. ME2 especially.


...I... I did?

When?


With Collectors I guess. Though that's obviously not the same thing and we just blew up their home really. There must be some more of them left scattered around the galaxy.

Arrival and the Heretic Geth as well.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 avril 2012 - 10:20 .