808 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Actually, the destroy endings annihilates Earth in one of the outcomes.

Sorry that's what I was trying to say.  With low EMS score the ending is certainly OMGBBQ bleak.

That's the porblem i have with it. What in god's name makes the red beam able to suddenly not harm Earth because of EMS? I mean lets just put gameplay mechanics aside here. Regardless of your EMS, how is it possible for the r4ed beam to destroy Earth, but at the same time leave it and the humans on it without any form of damage in a different ending? Does the beam actually follow any form of logic, or does it just do **** because it can? What about the ramifications of a destroyed Earth? This would mean that the beam destroys any form of life if it can destroy Earth and it's inhabitants. You just destroyed the entire galaxy and it's inhabitants. It's the only thing we can assume.

This is my problem. There is no logic applied to the beams. They just do whatever without ramifications because that's how it's written. Going from a scientifically plausible universe to one that can circumvent any form of logical process in the last 5 minutes does not sit well with me, and will never sit well with me unless this magic is explained and follows a consistent process; not just destroy some inhabitants without destroying others just because it's magic. 

[Rockpopple]

Low EMS means the Crucible wasn't ready when it was used. So it didn't work properly and fried everyone on Earth. High EMS means the Crucible was prepared and worked as was intended.

[Sundance31us]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

M0keys wrote...
Actually, the destroy endings annihilates Earth in one of the outcomes.

Sorry that's what I was trying to say.  With low EMS score the ending is certainly OMGBBQ bleak.

Yeah, no need to interpret that one.

[kimuji]

Atmospeer wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

When dealing with a timeline that might as well be eternity, any event with a non-zero chance of occurring will eventually occur, so in that sense I don't really find it a contradiction.  All that the Geth-Quarian peace and EDI do is serve as examples that "it's not happening right now."

At this point, even if we think it's an evitability (assuming the Catalyst is infalliable), there's really no timeline on when such an event may occur.  If it takes 47 billion years for an organic to finally create a synthetic that destroys all organic life, then the Catalyst's statement is still correct(...)

I'd just like to thank you for this post, clarifying that the catalyst is not completely nonsensical like I'd been saying all along; as opposed to all those people who have seen the meme and suddenly "herp derp makes no sense".

It isn't very suitable for an AI because it's a drastic solution only based on a probabilty, a speculation. Just like we can potentially blow up Earth with nuclear weapons, it is potentially possible but who would be crazy enough to suggest that humanity should be exterminated to prevent the risk of humans blowing up Earth?  My neighbour owns a gun, should I blow up his house just because he can potentially use it on me? Reapers as bugged AIs isn't a very appealing theory.

Modifié par kimuji, 08 avril 2012 - 03:34 .

[firebreather19]

kimuji wrote...

Atmospeer wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

When dealing with a timeline that might as well be eternity, any event with a non-zero chance of occurring will eventually occur, so in that sense I don't really find it a contradiction.  All that the Geth-Quarian peace and EDI do is serve as examples that "it's not happening right now."

At this point, even if we think it's an evitability (assuming the Catalyst is infalliable), there's really no timeline on when such an event may occur.  If it takes 47 billion years for an organic to finally create a synthetic that destroys all organic life, then the Catalyst's statement is still correct(...)

I'd just like to thank you for this post, clarifying that the catalyst is not completely nonsensical like I'd been saying all along; as opposed to all those people who have seen the meme and suddenly "herp derp makes no sense".

It isn't very suitable for an AI because it's a drastic solution only based on a probabilty, a speculation. Just like we could blow up earth with nuclear weapons, it is potentially possible but who would be crazy enough to suggest that humanity should be exterminated to prevent the risk of humans blowing up Earth?  My neighbour owns a gun, should I blow up his house just because he can potentially use it on me? Reapers as bugged AIs isn't a very appealing theory.

You assume it's a speculation, but how do you know the catalyst didn't see something or experience something to cause its solution?

[Allan Schumacher]

@kimuji

Regarding DX ending that's a bit different and easier to "explain", JC
is already full of nanites and "cyberstuff" (he  even has some knind of
equivalent of a wifi modem in his head, maybe he already has an USB port
^^) so you can imagine that you just have enhance some of his existing
hardawe to allow Helios using him as a vessel and merge counciousness
with him. Plus he merges with Helios and they become one unique entity,
the ME3 green ending is different, people don't merge with anyone else,
organics become part synthetic and vice versa

That's a good point. JC is a merge (and equipped to merge because of his augmentations). I think the description many have used for synthesis is appropriate: forced evolution. Ethical considerations aside, it's "forced" in that an outside force has causes the DNA to evolve at a significantly accelerated rate. Mutate really I guess.

No, I still can't explain what this really means for the people that have been changed though... lol.

My best hypothesis is that we become the best of both worlds. My assumption is that organics create VIs to make their lives easier, and given enough VIs, eventually one becomes a true AI. Maybe the idea is that as a hybrid, the desire to create VIs in order to free up our spare time, make things easier, and so forth is less prevalent?

What are our demands for food/sustenance now?

I'm not sure. It's still the ending I'm less certain about what happens past the ending.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 08 avril 2012 - 03:38 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Rockpopple wrote...

Low EMS means the Crucible wasn't ready when it was used. So it didn't work properly and fried everyone on Earth. High EMS means the Crucible was prepared and worked as was intended.

That doesn't make any sense. Either the beam follows a consistent process of it's workings, or it is space magic that has no explanation. 

But to let's just forget about that for a second. If Earth is destroyed due to an "under prepared" Crucible, that would mean that all planets and their inhabitants are destroyed along with it, right? If not, why is Earth special? Why did it get destroyed and nothing else? 

[kimuji]

firebreather19 wrote...

kimuji wrote...

Atmospeer wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

When dealing with a timeline that might as well be eternity, any event with a non-zero chance of occurring will eventually occur, so in that sense I don't really find it a contradiction.  All that the Geth-Quarian peace and EDI do is serve as examples that "it's not happening right now."

At this point, even if we think it's an evitability (assuming the Catalyst is infalliable), there's really no timeline on when such an event may occur.  If it takes 47 billion years for an organic to finally create a synthetic that destroys all organic life, then the Catalyst's statement is still correct(...)

I'd just like to thank you for this post, clarifying that the catalyst is not completely nonsensical like I'd been saying all along; as opposed to all those people who have seen the meme and suddenly "herp derp makes no sense".

It isn't very suitable for an AI because it's a drastic solution only based on a probabilty, a speculation. Just like we could blow up earth with nuclear weapons, it is potentially possible but who would be crazy enough to suggest that humanity should be exterminated to prevent the risk of humans blowing up Earth?  My neighbour owns a gun, should I blow up his house just because he can potentially use it on me? Reapers as bugged AIs isn't a very appealing theory.

You assume it's a speculation, but how do you know the catalyst didn't see something or experience something to cause its solution?

Because if synthetics had wiped out all organic life Shepard wouldn't exist. And if they "only" partly wiped out organic life then the Reapers are useless because that's pretty much exactly what they are doing: operating a partial extinction. So the Reapers can't claim that synthetics will erradicate all organic life.

[tractrpl]

For me, the notion that synthetic life inevitably wipes out organic life is something that's repeated to often in sci-fi. I think the Mass Effect audience is a little more mature than that, and that argument is tired. It's not logical for that to happen because synthetics aren't likely to need "garden worlds" to survive. They might still need radiation from the sun and mineral resources, but there's so much of that kind of stuff in the galaxy that organics would have to coexist for billions of years before they start to compete for resources.

I do think that synthetic life will replace organic civilization eventually, but not through conflict. It will first start out with synthetic augmentation, we are already doing that. Then we'll augment our mental capabilities using synthetics, like chips in the brain, and we'll have artificial limbs to make us stronger and faster, and perhaps even able to survive in outer space. Eventually, our descendants will likely do away with their organic bodies totally, synthetics replaced organics, but not through war, through evolution. This is where Bioware got it wrong. This whole "synthetics will fight organics" is an old theme in Sci-fi, but not one that a SCIENTIFICALLY MINDED audience is likely to believe. A space magic audience, maybe, but not ME fans.

[pikey1969]

What??? THIS IS WHAT HE MEANT BY STEALING THUNDER???

Damn it... there I was wasting time in a thread that was but a 'fragment' of a fan's memory, when we had a Bioware writer having a LIVE discussion.

DAMMMN YOU GOD!

Good thing I stopped going to church years ago when I was young. yer obv good for nothin god.

Modifié par pikey1969, 08 avril 2012 - 03:48 .

[tractrpl]

But to let's just forget about that for a second. If Earth is destroyed due to an "under prepared" Crucible, that would mean that all planets and their inhabitants are destroyed along with it, right? If not, why is Earth special? Why did it get destroyed and nothing else? 

The initial firing of the crucible was right in low-earth orbit. then, it gets fired from each mass relay. Virtually all mass relays are in the outer orbits of solar systems, so even if there's a habitable planet near a relay, it wouldn't get obliterated by the force.

[Adain878]

Just want to say you've done more for the fan base in one thread than Bioware has managed to do with their PR department. Now only if they would stop hiding behind "artistic integrity" and actually defend the ending with well thought out reasoning.

[tractrpl]

In otherwords, the Earth is doomed due to its proximity to the crucible. The rest of the galaxy is fine, the signal still "kills" the reapers, but the strength of the signal is powerful enough to harm the earth. This is like when you rewrote the heretics in ME2. It's just a radio signal, but it's powerful enough to kill organics in close proximity.

[Atmospeer]

kimuji wrote...

firebreather19 wrote...

kimuji wrote...

Atmospeer wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

When dealing with a timeline that might as well be eternity, any event with a non-zero chance of occurring will eventually occur, so in that sense I don't really find it a contradiction.  All that the Geth-Quarian peace and EDI do is serve as examples that "it's not happening right now."

At this point, even if we think it's an evitability (assuming the Catalyst is infalliable), there's really no timeline on when such an event may occur.  If it takes 47 billion years for an organic to finally create a synthetic that destroys all organic life, then the Catalyst's statement is still correct(...)

I'd just like to thank you for this post, clarifying that the catalyst is not completely nonsensical like I'd been saying all along; as opposed to all those people who have seen the meme and suddenly "herp derp makes no sense".

It isn't very suitable for an AI because it's a drastic solution only based on a probabilty, a speculation. Just like we could blow up earth with nuclear weapons, it is potentially possible but who would be crazy enough to suggest that humanity should be exterminated to prevent the risk of humans blowing up Earth?  My neighbour owns a gun, should I blow up his house just because he can potentially use it on me? Reapers as bugged AIs isn't a very appealing theory.

You assume it's a speculation, but how do you know the catalyst didn't see something or experience something to cause its solution?

Because if synthetics had wiped out all organic life Shepard wouldn't exist. And if they "only" partly wiped out organic life then the Reapers are useless because that's pretty much exactly what they are doing: operating a partial extinction. So the Reapers can't claim that synthetics will erradicate all organic life.

It could've occured in another galaxy sometime in the past, in which case, Shepard would still be alive and the catalyst could have evidence to back up it's claims. The problem is that we do not know WHY the catalyst created the solution, but that does not make it illogical.

tractrpl wrote...

But to let's just forget about that for a second. If Earth is destroyed due to an "under prepared" Crucible, that would mean that all planets and their inhabitants are destroyed along with it, right? If not, why is Earth special? Why did it get destroyed and nothing else? 

The initial firing of the crucible was right in low-earth orbit. then, it gets fired from each mass relay. Virtually all mass relays are in the outer orbits of solar systems, so even if there's a habitable planet near a relay, it wouldn't get obliterated by the force.

 

It's funny, because the velocity and seemingly the amplitude of the wave are increased by the relays, or as the wave travels, either way; but the Earth is the only place that seems to be impacted by an under prepared Crucible.

Modifié par Atmospeer, 08 avril 2012 - 03:57 .

[dreaming_raithe]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

@kimuji

Regarding DX ending that's a bit different and easier to "explain", JC
is already full of nanites and "cyberstuff" (he  even has some knind of
equivalent of a wifi modem in his head, maybe he already has an USB port
^^) so you can imagine that you just have enhance some of his existing
hardawe to allow Helios using him as a vessel and merge counciousness
with him. Plus he merges with Helios and they become one unique entity,
the ME3 green ending is different, people don't merge with anyone else,
organics become part synthetic and vice versa

That's a good point. JC is a merge (and equipped to merge because of his augmentations). I think the description many have used for synthesis is appropriate: forced evolution. Ethical considerations aside, it's "forced" in that an outside force has causes the DNA to evolve at a significantly accelerated rate. Mutate really I guess.

No, I still can't explain what this really means for the people that have been changed though... lol.

My best hypothesis is that we become the best of both worlds. My assumption is that organics create VIs to make their lives easier, and given enough VIs, eventually one becomes a true AI. Maybe the idea is that as a hybrid, the desire to create VIs in order to free up our spare time, make things easier, and so forth is less prevalent?

What are our demands for food/sustenance now?

I'm not sure. It's still the ending I'm less certain about what happens past the ending.

I wish they wouldn't have mentioned that "new DNA" junk. To anyone that has a basic understanding of evolutionary theory, it really ruins the general versimilitude the science in the rest of the game maintains. They're free to invent things for dark energy since we don't understand much about it, but evolution flat out doesn't work that way. I don't care if Synthesis was somehow the best ending without question, I could never choose it becaise it makes no sense.

The only way it works is through space magic, and that's something we were specifically told we wouldn't get.

[Tunrda]

Allan,

You talk about moral dilemma and liking how the destroy ending gives you that. Wouldn't then the control ending be the best as there is no real down side there? Sure the reapers exist but Shepard controls them, isn't that good?

[antony1197]

Tunrda wrote...

Allan,

You talk about moral dilemma and liking how the destroy ending gives you that. Wouldn't then the control ending be the best as there is no real down side there? Sure the reapers exist but Shepard controls them, isn't that good?

Unless he goes insane... then the entire galaxy is royally ****ed

[tractrpl]

Actually, we know enough about Dark Energy to know it's everywhere, making something like 70% of the universe. You have more Dark Energy in your body right at this very instant than you have atoms, so to speak. It's also very uniform. To suggest is has a conscience and is out to kill all life is...very far fetched indeed.

[dreaming_raithe]

tractrpl wrote...

Actually, we know enough about Dark Energy to know it's everywhere, making something like 70% of the universe. You have more Dark Energy in your body right at this very instant than you have atoms, so to speak. It's also very uniform. To suggest is has a conscience and is out to kill all life is...very far fetched indeed.

Do they actually state that in the games? I'm not one of those types that's read much of the codex, so if dark energy being sentient is in there, I missed it, heh.

We know dark energy is everywhere and all that, but more what I meant is that we don't really know much about what it is. We don't really know any of its properties since we can only detect it by inference and so on. It's fertile ground for speculative fiction, which is a big part of sci-fi in general.

Evolution isn't really, though. Hasn't been for a long time.

[Allan Schumacher]

That's the porblem i have with it. What in god's name makes the red beam able to suddenly not harm Earth because of EMS? I mean lets just put gameplay mechanics aside here. Regardless of your EMS, how is it possible for the r4ed beam to destroy Earth, but at the same time leave it and the humans on it without any form of damage in a different ending? Does the beam actually follow any form of logic, or does it just do **** because it can? What about the ramifications of a destroyed Earth? This would mean that the beam destroys any form of life if it can destroy Earth and it's inhabitants. You just destroyed the entire galaxy and it's inhabitants. It's the only thing we can assume.

This is my problem. There is no logic applied to the beams. They just do whatever without ramifications because that's how it's written. Going from a scientifically plausible universe to one that can circumvent any form of logical process in the last 5 minutes does not sit well with me, and will never sit well with me unless this magic is explained and follows a consistent process; not just destroy some inhabitants without destroying others just because it's magic. 

Rockpopple touches on this in the following post, but it seems to me that the EMS score applies more to the ability to create/protect the Crucible than the ability to fight off the reapers.  The way that the endings deviate based on EMS verify this.  It's just not as clear as it could have been.

Hackett alludes to this when he talks about how we're not sure what the crucible does, or how to even guarantee it will only target the reapers.  To me this makes consistent, logical sense.  The only point of contention is what the EMS value really represented.

It isn't very suitable for an AI because it's a drastic solution only based on a probabilty, a speculation.

I'm not sure.  Depending on how significant the probability is, and especially if the Catalyst isn't infalliable, it may be making decisions with imperfect information.  Shepard is the first organic to ever meet the Catalyst, which the Catalyst points out as being noteworthy... it changes things.  It's possible that synthetic/organic wars have occurred on a more routine bases, maybe even along the lines of how the Quarian-Geth war started out, and it's ended poorly.

Maybe Shepard has already done something that the Catalyst didn't predict (reaching the Crucible), and it's added an unknown variable that the Catalyst cannot anticipate.  Or maybe it has, but it still doesn't make his conclusion incorrect.

[JesseLee202]

Crazyjeffy wrote...

Well, between Mass slavery and suicide and mass indoctrination and suicide, i think it was worth it.

yep

[tractrpl]

Atmospeer wrote...

It's funny, because the velocity and seemingly the amplitude of the wave are increased by the relays, or as the wave travels, either way; but the Earth is the only place that seems to be impacted by an under prepared Crucible.

Eh, no. The energy was RETRANSMITTED at each relay. It didn't "increase in spead", it just spread like a virus. It hopped from one relay to another. Each relay is basically the same, so the strength of each retransmission is the same. The Citadel is a VERY POWERFUL mass relay, so it's initial explosion is larger than the rest.  But only the citadel was in orbit around a habitable planet, so only that planet (earth) would be affected by an improperly prepared crucible.

Sorry, but this is one part of the ending that makes absolute sense.

[kimuji]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

My assumption is that organics create VIs to make their lives easier, and given enough VIs, eventually one becomes a true AI. Maybe the idea is that as a hybrid, the desire to create VIs in order to free up our spare time, make things easier, and so forth is less prevalent?

That's pretty much my idea, though I remember the Starchild saying: "the created will always rebel against the creators", he uses it as a justification for the Reapers actions. But this is a false statement, the AIs don't rebel for no reason, like you said we use VIs like tools to make our life easier, and so did the Quarians, if these VIs become sentient then they are no longer tools they are slaves. The Geths rebelled against the Quarians because the Quarians tried to wipe them out, not just because the Quarians were their creators. As I said in another thread if the Quarians had never tried to destroy the Geth but the Turians had, then the Geths would have attacked the Turians and not the Quarians. The created only rebel against the creator if the creator makes him a slave or tries to kill him when he become sentient. The rebellion is only inevitable if you give your creations valid motives to do so.

You worked on DA so you know what I mean, the mages don't rebel against the Chantry and the Templars because they are their creators, they aren't, they do it because they are prisonners without any rights. The mages rebellion is inevitable because they are oppressed.

Modifié par kimuji, 08 avril 2012 - 04:10 .

[greggm2000]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

@kimuji

Regarding DX ending that's a bit different and easier to "explain", JC
is already full of nanites and "cyberstuff" (he  even has some knind of
equivalent of a wifi modem in his head, maybe he already has an USB port
^^) so you can imagine that you just have enhance some of his existing
hardawe to allow Helios using him as a vessel and merge counciousness
with him. Plus he merges with Helios and they become one unique entity,
the ME3 green ending is different, people don't merge with anyone else,
organics become part synthetic and vice versa

That's a good point. JC is a merge (and equipped to merge because of his augmentations). I think the description many have used for synthesis is appropriate: forced evolution. Ethical considerations aside, it's "forced" in that an outside force has causes the DNA to evolve at a significantly accelerated rate. Mutate really I guess.

No, I still can't explain what this really means for the people that have been changed though... lol.

My best hypothesis is that we become the best of both worlds. My assumption is that organics create VIs to make their lives easier, and given enough VIs, eventually one becomes a true AI. Maybe the idea is that as a hybrid, the desire to create VIs in order to free up our spare time, make things easier, and so forth is less prevalent?

What are our demands for food/sustenance now?

I'm not sure. It's still the ending I'm less certain about what happens past the ending.

Hmm, and I can see how such a thing could interrupt the cycle, since the prime motivator for creating Sythetics in the first place is to do the work of Organics.. but now, you could just fragment off a segment of your own code to serve as a temporary VI in a chassis. You don't have the risks, because in a sense, these VIs are *you*

[Vexille]

I laugh at those who say killing a few billion (In my case just EDI as I had already eliminated the geth threat) to save trillions = wrong.

forcibly violate and mutate EVERY BEING IN THE GALAXY without any input from the people affected = "ok"

im sorry but synthesis is truly the most disgusting and morally repugnant "Solution" imaginable. I really doubt anyone who picked that option really grasps what the option is.

I honestly dont comprehend how anyone sees the violation and forced conversion of EVERYONE to be "good".

Hell if you pick synthesis why not just lose to Saren in ME1 and save some time

Modifié par Vexille, 08 avril 2012 - 04:10 .