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Why is it OK for Shepard to live in extended cut Red ending if he still commits genocide?


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#651
Deventh

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@Allan Schumacher: How do you explain Shepard surviving after choosing the red ending? Obviously he didn't sacrifice himself (THANK GOD FOR THAT!) so at least we have an option seeing him survive and meet up with his LI & crew. So the child could be wrong about synthetic getting destroyed, because it said that "Even you are partly synthetic" - Yet we get Shepard breath (living) in the end.
"The created will always rebel against their creators" - Another lie and proof is the mission with Legion and Tali when they reach consensus and not battle anymore.

Also you said that Shepard must sacrifice himself in the end. Why? Why not make it that if you don't have high enough EMS you must sacrifice yourself, but if you have it to the max why not survive? This game is all about choices and decisions throughout the games and how they would affect the ending. We should get a choice for Shepard to survive just as we should get one for sacrifice and failiure.

Modifié par Deventh, 08 avril 2012 - 11:31 .


#652
Dominator24

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ups wrong forum thred

Modifié par Dominator24, 08 avril 2012 - 11:36 .


#653
78stonewobble

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Well I think that the choices I'm given should have a reasonable amount of logic behind it OR fall within the "obviously crazy persons thoughts" category.

IMHO the ending fell somewhat inbetween.

#654
Nyctyris

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Agreed about boss conversations. I may be in a minority here but I actually thought that boss-conversation was the way to go for TIM. It felt very appropriate to me that an RPG should come down to a conversation, since dialogue and narrative are (I feel) at the heart of what RPGs are about.

Sadly that just made it all the more frustrating to not have that kind of conversation with starchild =( but I'm holding out hope for the extended cut to maybe put some of that in =)

Not sure about people who used the autodialogue settings though. I'd be interested to know what happens if you have autodialogue turned one. I mean, does it default to destroy or what? Or do you still get some choices in autodialogue?

#655
Reever

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Really great discussions in this thread, thank you Allan and all the others for it!!

#656
kimuji

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One thing on an ending involving Shepard's and the Geths survival (aka "my" modified red ending). I wouldn't call it an happy end, there's no possible happy end for the game: Earth's population has been decimated, Thessia's population has been decimated, the Batarian world has been decimated, the Turian's home world has suffered great casualties etc... Even if Shepard and most of his squadmates survive that won't bring back the billions who got killed and harvested in the war against the Reapers, this is just a lesser degree of horror. So no, letting the Geth survive will never change ME3's ending into a happy one with little ponies and unicorns. The war still have terrific consequencies. That would be like claiming that WW2 had an happy end because the Amercians didn't have to sacrifice the whole French population in order to win the war. Wars never end well, even when you are victorious. A happy end is impossible, but a paragon and meaningful one is possible, the "better" red ending leaves room for satisfying interpretations because if the Geths survive then we can question the Starchild's real intentions and imagine he was trying to deter Shepard from destroying the Reapers. It opens a door for "lots of satisfying speculations from everyone".

Ah yes "happy ending", we have dismissed that claim.  B)

Modifié par kimuji, 08 avril 2012 - 01:36 .


#657
HITMAN629

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Im late to this forum but Allan, youre awesome for talking with us XD

#658
EricHVela

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As I see it: They wanted to make the choice morally difficult and ended up with hack. :-\\

#659
Tocquevillain

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Deventh wrote...

@Allan Schumacher: How do you explain Shepard surviving after choosing the red ending? Obviously he didn't sacrifice himself (THANK GOD FOR THAT!) so at least we have an option seeing him survive and meet up with his LI & crew. So the child could be wrong about synthetic getting destroyed, because it said that "Even you are partly synthetic" - Yet we get Shepard breath (living) in the end.
"The created will always rebel against their creators" - Another lie and proof is the mission with Legion and Tali when they reach consensus and not battle anymore.

Also you said that Shepard must sacrifice himself in the end. Why? Why not make it that if you don't have high enough EMS you must sacrifice yourself, but if you have it to the max why not survive? This game is all about choices and decisions throughout the games and how they would affect the ending. We should get a choice for Shepard to survive just as we should get one for sacrifice and failiure.


Deveth:

1) You answer your own question about Shepard in the second paragraph. Shepard wakes up on the Citadel with high EMS, you can clearly see piping and architecture from the processing rooms in the background. It's not Earth.
2) "Created will always rebel" - reaching consensus and not battling anymore doesn't really matter, they already rebelled.

#660
TwilightChamp

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On a related point... if Shep and the Quarians and every biotic is already part synthetic. What the hell is the point of the Synthesis ending? And is starkid really talking about organics vs. synthetics or cybernetics vs. synthetics. Reapers only wipe out advanced civilizations after all, that is, the ones that are partially synthetic... Okay, now the ending makes even less sense than it did. Even the choices are factually silly. The Citadel races are already part synthetic/organic.

#661
kimuji

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Tocquevillain wrote...

2) "Created will always rebel" - reaching consensus and not battling anymore doesn't really matter, they already rebelled.

The starchild is missing a point: they rebel because the creators gave them reasons to rebel. They don't rebel because they have a compelling urge to kill their creators, they rebel because the creators tried to kill or enslave them. Treat them right and the rebellion becomes more unlikely.

And you are missing a point, yes the Geth rebelled, but the rebellion got stopped through diplomatic means. What's the point of destroying entire civilizations if you can get the same result through diplomacy?

Modifié par kimuji, 08 avril 2012 - 02:04 .


#662
dreaming_raithe

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

dreaming_raithe wrote...

To be honest, the game sets you up to believe you're going to beat the Reapers no matter what, especially with Javik's bit about how the unified galaxy is something never achieved in his time. Throw in that Thanix cannons are standard issue (when they weren't in ME1) and I think an ending involving ignoring the Catalyst would have been feasible enough. The Catalyst/Crucible having the three magic buttons that it does barely makes any sense in the first place, and I'm still really frustrated with the three choices we were presented with.


Hmmm, I don't know if I necessarily got the vibe that we were going to beat the Reapers no matter what.  Although it's true that Hacket estimates that our odds are "even" but I don't know if he's factoring in the potential effects of the Crucible into his estimate.  One bad thing about not requiring the Crucible's use is that it makes the Crucible irrelevant.  It truly becomes a MacGuffin and I think weakens other aspects of the story.

It would have been better, imo, to have "Destroy" be the only ending, but the level of destruction would be determined by War Assets/EMS. Low enough, the Relays, Earth, Shepard, and all Synthetic life are all gone. With more EMS, the beam is able to precision target, saving more of those things at each stage. This would have echoed the style of ME2's ending somewhat, which is honestly what I assumed would be the case up until the Catalyst made his appearance.


I was expecting something more along this lines when I made it to the end.  Not an ostensible choice to be made, but rather the reapers defeated with our past decisions and war score playing their part in the resolution afterward.  Much more inline with the ME1 and ME2 endings that really didn't provide any choice, either.


I think, ultimately, part of why I got that vibe was because of the beating the odds theme that the first two games have. At the end of ME, Shepard (well, the fleet) takes down a Reaper. At the beginning of ME2, Shepard dies and is resurrected, and at the end of ME2, survives a suicide mission (and possibly with everyone making it out alive). Especially with ME2's loyalty structure, I think there was an expectation that ME3 would be similar. It even follows the ME2 structure, except on a larger scale: you're not getting Garrus' loyalty, you're gaining the support of the entire turian race (and so on). Throughout it all, you do two major things once thought impossible or improbable: earning krogan *and* salarian support (yes, I shot Mordin :( ) and uniting the geth and the quarians after 300. Hell, you even take out a Reaper on foot.

Then you have Javik expressing more than once how better prepared this cycle is to face the Reapers and before the final mission, giving that awesome speech about how much we've accomplished. More than one of your squadmates mention drinks *after the battle* (though two of them are ME2 ones available only by telecom, which I suppose people could have missed). Other squadmates are more somber (like Liara), but there's definitely a belief that we can win. I went into the final battle feeling hopeful--I wanted my drinks with Kasumi and Jacob, dammit!

So when, essentially, the Crucible didn't work and the elevator carries Shepard up to Central Control (or whatever), I thought we were still going to win somehow. I didn't think the Crucible was going to have anything to do with it anymore. I figured, well, I got everyone's loyalty like I did in ME2, I did all the sidequests...It seems like we're gonna have to do this the old fashioned way. (I do agree that without the Crucible having a function it ends up being little more than a silly MacGuffin, but...I'd take that over every single thing to do with the Catalyst and the choices we were presented, as I think they damage the story far more).

Then the Catalyst shows up and basically ignores the structure of the entire game up to that point, dumping exposition onto Shepard and expecting me to make a decision with no real context. Walters and his "you don't need to know the answers to the Mass Effect universe" thing was absolutely infuriating--that scene needed an Investigate option, even if only to allow us more clarity about the decisions we were making. So we get stuck with these three ambiguous choices (two of which, again, were the positions of the enemy for the entire trilogy).

I would have rather taken my gamble with the Thanix Cannons. I know it's what my Shepard would have done. "We fight or we die" was like her mantra even before the beginning of ME3. Taking the Catalyst's trap options felt like giving up. If the writers were trying to set us up for these three choices (and the tone of the ending in general), they did a slipshod job of setting the tone properly. Yes, a lot of the game is dark, but so much of it is hopeful, too, and that makes the ending we got feel incredibly out of place.

#663
Marta Rio II

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Saw the post from Allan a number of pages back, regarding the purpose of genociding the Geth, and how it makes the destroy ending more than just a "no-brainer" choice. 

So if I recall correctly, in the leaked script, the endings were presented as follows:
(1) Destroy:
Benefits: you destroy the Reapers, the cycle of synthetic/organic destruction is stopped for the forseeable future.
Sacrifice: all Reaper tech is destroyed as well, including the relays.

(2) Control
Benefits: the Reapers stop their attack, and Reaper tech remains intact (including the relays),
Sacrifice: you risk the cycle being restarted at some later date, if you're not strong enough to retain control.

(3) Synthesis
Benefits: the cycle of sythetic/organic destruction is stopped for all time, and Reaper tech remains intact (including the relays).
Sacrifice: you throw the free will of billions of sentient beings out the window to achieve this.

I could be remembering things incorrectly, but I don't think the Geth genocide was mentioned (although I guess the Geth have Reaper code in them...so I dunno if they would have been considered Reaper tech?).  

Even if my memory is faulty, I would have much preferred the endings if the main thing you had to sacrifice was the relays.  That is, if you choose destroy, you plunge the galaxy into a technological dark age, whereas in the other options, you either get back to the status quo (control) or get to experience a new age of existence (synthesis). 

But because the relays are disabled in each of the current endings, the devs had to insert something else to be sacrificed in the destroy ending, to make it a more difficult choice.  So hence we have the genocide of the Geth.  Which is (a) just unseemly, as Shep shouldn't have to become Space Hitler, and (B) makes it even more infuriating that we don't have a conversation option where we confront the Starchild about his faulty logic.

Modifié par Marta Rio II, 08 avril 2012 - 02:07 .


#664
Gibsn

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This guy is awesome.

#665
Patchwork

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M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(


What does one have to do with the other? In both Control and Synthesis Shepard sacrafices herself as a means to either Control the Reapers or fundermetnally change the nature of every living creatures' DNA. In Destroy Shepard dies or not due to an exploding cable it's not a required part of the process like with the other two.

What you really seem to asking is does Shepard deserve to live after killing the geth and that's completely different. In most cases I say yes. If the galaxy cares they'll put Shepard on trail and if they don't Shepard's own conscience will be the judge. 

#666
BatmanPWNS

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Why can't Shepard live in any other ending? It's pretty insulting if only the Anderson/paragon choice has you living.

#667
kimuji

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BatmanPWNS wrote...

Why can't Shepard live in any other ending? It's pretty insulting if only the Anderson/paragon choice has you living.

The destruction choice as it is now is absolutely not a paragon choice.

#668
kimuji

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Ser Bard wrote...

M0keys wrote...

Just wondering how Bioware thinks the player avatar commiting total genocide of an entire race of sentient, friendly beings is supposed to give us, as they said at PAX, satisfaction?

Who do they think their player base is? Genocide isn't cool :(


What does one have to do with the other? In both Control and Synthesis Shepard sacrafices herself as a means to either Control the Reapers or fundermetnally change the nature of every living creatures' DNA. In Destroy Shepard dies or not due to an exploding cable it's not a required part of the process like with the other two.

What you really seem to asking is does Shepard deserve to live after killing the geth and that's completely different. In most cases I say yes. If the galaxy cares they'll put Shepard on trail and if they don't Shepard's own conscience will be the judge.

First Shepard doesn't die or not due to an exploding cable, it is related to the crucible effect on his synthetic implants. The best explanation we came by with Allan is that with a high EMS the crucible is more efficent and destroys the Reapers without completely destroying all synthetic technologies if they are not related to the Reapers' technology.

Second, the three endings have questionnable motives and consequencies, none of them has a better ethical reason than the others to keep him alive. Ethics has nothing to do with the fact that Shepard lives or dies.

Modifié par kimuji, 08 avril 2012 - 02:27 .


#669
Ruthac_Arus

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kimuji wrote...

]The destruction choice as it is now is absolutely not a paragon choice.


It's not an absolutely Renegade choice now either. My Shepard chose it because it offered the races of the galaxy a chance to self-determinate free from the risk of the Reapers *ever* interfering again. Control lacks this potential (now, if Shepard were able to tell the Reapers to fly into a sun and off themselves rather than just leaving, *then* it'd obviously be the Paragon choice) and carries the risk of Shepard losing control eventually, while the entire premise of taking away the Reapers' motivations in Synthesis is flawed (read: nonsensical).

When you take motivation into account here, there really is no clear-cut Renegade or Paragon choice, regardless of corresponding color scheme. As has been said numerous times before, a real Paragon (or Renegade) option would be Shepard having the (hard-earned) ability to Charm or Intimidate, tell the Catalyst to go stuff itself, rather than meekly acquiescing to A, B, or C.

Modifié par Ruthac_Arus, 08 avril 2012 - 02:32 .


#670
Sarz91

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I have absolutely no problem in destroying all synthetic life in the galaxy. However, I believe that incorporating an ending in which the Reapers are destroyed but synthetic life goes on would be pretty cool. I wouldn't enjoy it but it should have been/should be an option.

#671
Atmospeer

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tractrpl wrote...

Atmospeer wrote...

It's funny, because the velocity and seemingly the amplitude of the wave are increased by the relays, or as the wave travels, either way; but the Earth is the only place that seems to be impacted by an under prepared Crucible.


Eh, no. The energy was RETRANSMITTED at each relay. It didn't "increase in spead", it just spread like a virus. It hopped from one relay to another. Each relay is basically the same, so the strength of each retransmission is the same. The Citadel is a VERY POWERFUL mass relay, so it's initial explosion is larger than the rest.  But only the citadel was in orbit around a habitable planet, so only that planet (earth) would be affected by an improperly prepared crucible.

Sorry, but this is one part of the ending that makes absolute sense.


Doesn't increase in speed? Then how do you explain the wave going from sub-c velocities to FTL greater than the Normandy?

Vessels around the Earth are seemingly unaffected while the Normandy crashes? Ok the Normandy is in FTL but why does this happen?

#672
kimuji

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Sarz91 wrote...

I have absolutely no problem in destroying all synthetic life in the galaxy. However, I believe that incorporating an ending in which the Reapers are destroyed but synthetic life goes on would be pretty cool. I wouldn't enjoy it but it should have been/should be an option.

I would have no problem with the 3 endings if there were one more choice. Unethical solutions isn't a problem, I wouldn't mind a particularly horrific mean of ending the war if at the same time we had another more ethically acceptable path available.

#673
Vznzsixr

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Thank you so much Allan for posting your experience of the game. I am really glad that to learn that someone shared the same kind of experience if I understood it all correctly, and also because I'd never be able to depict them with such accuracy.

Personally, I really only cared for destruction because there was no way in the world the Reapers would get away with everything they did, regardless of motivation or cause.
Faced with the catalyst I still would have liked to explain him at length that people - both organics and synthetics - would find a way, regardless of the overwhelming probabilities he surely had years to account for. And possibly have him acknowledge all these efforts to fill that gauge without any red stains from ME1 onwards (including the cure for Genophage and Rannoch as obvious examples of that).
My Shepard would probably have been satisfied with talking him to death while the ships deal with the the reapers, I mean maybe he is not perfectly multi-task.

Should that have failed, I am still unsure whether sacrificing victory - and giving a greater chance to the next cycle of overthrowing the reapers, including appropriating their technology - would not be a better outcome than destroying it all, especially if thousands of centuries of isolation are required to get out of the current galactic mess. 
Of course, all party members would have managed to flee somewhere to help prepare for that outcome.

Modifié par Vznzsixr, 08 avril 2012 - 02:58 .


#674
Skyblade012

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Megachaz wrote...

@Allan Thanks for the great discussion!

Do you think an ending where everyone survives, including Shepard, would have seemed out of place given the gravity of the situation?  On one hand, I think that wiping the floor with the Reapers without the loss of any of the main characters or factions might make them seem like pushovers (although Starchild already did this a bit in my mind), but on the other hand, I have a soft spot for the big goddam hero saving everyone's asses.  I would have loved a mechanic where the decisions like saving the council vs. human fleets, being able to talk down Saren, destroying/saving the Collector base, and squadmate survival on the suicide mission could impact the survival and stability of the races after the war.


I do think so.  As much as I can appreciate "Oh cool, everyone CAN survive" in ME2 from a reactivity standpoint, I actually find the ending not very interesting.  Fighting super powerful foes without any loss of any appreciable kind... I know I'm awesome but am I being TOO awesome?

In my "official" playthrough I lost Thane, which was sad.  I sent him in the tube, in part because he was terminally ill and dammit, if he was going to die it might as well be for something!  IIRC he felt the same way.  So he was in the tube, and then we rendezvous at the door and... BAM!  :o  Thane is dead!  I didn't think that would actually happen!  It created a bit of a cost to complete the mission.  So while Shepard and Co are happy to have destroyed the Collector Base (sorry TIM, I just don't trust you!), there's that twinge of melancholy because you realize that a teammate and friend paid the ultimate price to ensure the mission would succeed.  That's powerful stuff.

I think it also had good balance with the first game, where we're forced to lose a teammate as well.  Given Ash and Kaiden were my favs (don't judge...), that sacrifice was even more memorable for me!


Have you considered what goes into it though?  I mean, in order to get the 4000 required for the current base ending, you have to play multiplayer.  For the 5000 required you need more base war assets and multiplayer.  What if it took 6000?  Or, heck, even the 7000 that is the soft cap of war assets for imports + 100% multiplayer.

I mean, yes, Shepard is awesome.  But Shepard is not the only awesome one in this story.  Look at our old squadmates.  Look at the N7 teams (where a two man team can take out a gold mission against geth!).  Look at all the forces we've trained, taught, unified, and set loose.

Going back to the pen and paper RPG days, even gods could be killed.  Sure, they have insanely high stats, and are nearly impossible even to hit.  But it technically can be done.  Perfect play is given the perfect reward, it's the ultimate form of player agency.

Don't make it easy, but give us the option.  As a reward, for those who do everything.  Put huge EMS requirements on it.  Require certain mission flags.  But don't make it absolutely impossible.

#675
CARL_DF90

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Found this article and was a wonderful read. Those who are working at Bioware and the fans SHOULD read this.

http://jmstevenson.w...-mass-effect-3/